How can I improve my forehand? video

vndesu

Hall of Fame
for one fact.
try to play agaisnt someone when showing these vids.
when you played with the ball machince it look like you were lazy.
and the other 2 vids where you just throw the ball wont help your fh.

i notice though that when you hit the ball you have a lot or wrist in it. i would suggest trying not to use as much wrist. also i see that you dont use your legs alot.
but for us to help you out more you need a video where you're actually playing
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
Your head moves way too soon. It looks like you take your eyes off the contact before the ball hits your strings. As the ball gets close, shift your focus on the contact & keep your head still. Keep your eyes on the contact & head still until the racket comes across your body for your follow-thru. Check out slo-mo videos of Federer to see how intently he watches the contact & how long he keeps his head/eyes still.

Are you trying to hit fairly flat? The swing appears to be very level. Don't see much racket drop or high to low motion to impart topspin. On the other hand, it appears that you are hitting a lot of chest high shots -- but I'd still probably drop your racket head a touch more & finish your swing a little higher if you want more topspin.
 

sharpy

Banned
Your head moves way too soon. It looks like you take your eyes off the contact before the ball hits your strings. As the ball gets close, shift your focus on the contact & keep your head still. Keep your eyes on the contact & head still until the racket comes across your body for your follow-thru. Check out slo-mo videos of Federer to see how intently he watches the contact & how long he keeps his head/eyes still.

Are you trying to hit fairly flat? The swing appears to be very level. Don't see much racket drop or high to low motion to impart topspin. On the other hand, it appears that you are hitting a lot of chest high shots -- but I'd still probably drop your racket head a touch more & finish your swing a little higher if you want more topspin.

good advice, thanks.
 

sharpy

Banned
Dude, that's not cool.

Sharpy, looks to me like you pronate too early. I had the same problem before when I tried to hit flat. In fact, I don't even actively pronate anymore, it just happens passively.

could you explain some more? where is the pronation too early?
 

quicken

Professional
Not to flame but Roddick seems to have problems with the fellow tennis players out here in the forums =[
 

boojay

Hall of Fame
could you explain some more? where is the pronation too early?

It's a good thing you posted vids from 3 different angles because I couldn't see it in the first two, but I spotted it in the third.

I've taken similar videos of myself and in that particular vid you're taking the exact same swing I used to. I showed that to a pro and he looked at it in slow motion, pointing out to me that I pronated too early. I just recognize the same issue in that particular sequence.
 

sharpy

Banned
It's a good thing you posted vids from 3 different angles because I couldn't see it in the first two, but I spotted it in the third.

I've taken similar videos of myself and in that particular vid you're taking the exact same swing I used to. I showed that to a pro and he looked at it in slow motion, pointing out to me that I pronated too early. I just recognize the same issue in that particular sequence.

I'm having trouble understanding where the pronation is too early, theres several areas of pronation..

pronation at the height of takeback
pronation as the racket straightens
pronation at ww
 

boojay

Hall of Fame
My bad, pronation at contact. Unless you're going for excess topspin, refraining from pronating too early will allow you to hit through the ball more, creating a more penetrating shot. Once you achieve this, you'll be able to strike heavier laser beam shots deep into the court.
 

Hewitt Aussie

Professional
what is pronating at contact mean?

Nice Video, i notice that you pull off your shot, by opening up your body too soon. To fix this, watch the ball through contact.
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
It's a good thing you posted vids from 3 different angles because I couldn't see it in the first two, but I spotted it in the third.

I've taken similar videos of myself and in that particular vid you're taking the exact same swing I used to. I showed that to a pro and he looked at it in slow motion, pointing out to me that I pronated too early. I just recognize the same issue in that particular sequence.

Wow, your eyes must be much better than mine. Even after you mentioned it, I could not really detect that in this normal speed video (not enough lighting for my eyes either).

what is pronating at contact mean? ...

Check out this slo-mo video of Fed: youtube.com/watch?v=kmhvKafCYsk

The pronation in question actually starts just prior to contact, at about 17.5 seconds into the video above. However, the pronation does not really become evident until just after ball contact. If this stroke were to be viewed at normal speed, it would be difficult to see that pronation starting before contact -- it would appear to happen at contact or just after contact (as boojay suggests).
 

boojay

Hall of Fame
^Hah! Don't get me wrong. I can't actually see it. I just notice the same pattern in real-time. Like I said, a pro showed me by slowing the vid down and pointing it out to me frame-by-frame that I wasn't hitting through the ball. All I see is the after-effect and I recognize the same issue I had with early pronation in my stroke.
 

35ft6

Legend
Your shot seems too wristy to me, maybe has to do with what earlier poster said about pronation coming too soon.

With the ball machine, IMO your stance is TOO open, like parallel with baseline. I think it should be more closed, like the way you have it on third link when you're drop hitting. Also, with the ball machine, you're not moving your feet enough. Like some of those feeds are very short, but no matter what, you're hitting everything from the same position instead of stepping into the shot and taking short balls earlier.

I would recommend holding your left arm up higher during point of contact so it acts as a more effective counterweight. Right now you just drop it to your side, which is okay for certain shots, but not for regular rally balls. In general, I think you could be using your left arm more effectively, that will prevent you from arming the forehand so much.

But looking good.
 

tricky

Hall of Fame
The footwork looks improved. You do want to first step forward with the right foot when the ball is coming onto CC onto your FH wing. But at least you're not crossing your left foot over your right.

Right now, you're twisting around the hips to initiate the unit turn. The hips and torso do rotate in the unit turn, but it's initiated by the "sit." You'll find that by lowering and "backwarding" your butt, the rotation will start automatically. This will be easier to set up if you remember to step with the closest foot first.

Also, by sit and lifting, your body will move into the court during the forward swing and your arm will move into the line of the ball.

Takeback seems okay; it looks like you're doing something similar to what we talked about in the Safin thread. However, you need to initiate the forward swing earlier, just after you finish the height of your takeback or in your case after the pronation stops. This will also improve the wiping action on your shot.
 

sharpy

Banned
The footwork looks improved. You do want to first step forward with the right foot when the ball is coming onto CC onto your FH wing. But at least you're not crossing your left foot over your right.

Right now, you're twisting around the hips to initiate the unit turn. The hips and torso do rotate in the unit turn, but it's initiated by the "sit." You'll find that by lowering and "backwarding" your butt, the rotation will start automatically. This will be easier to set up if you remember to step with the closest foot first.

Also, by sit and lifting, your body will move into the court during the forward swing and your arm will move into the line of the ball.

Takeback seems okay; it looks like you're doing something similar to what we talked about in the Safin thread. However, you need to initiate the forward swing earlier, just after you finish the height of your takeback or in your case after the pronation stops. This will also improve the wiping action on your shot.


Yeah. I noticed the ww motion isn't that clean, probably due to the mishits. stroke-wise everything looks good? im not exactly getting the clean contact i want.
 
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yaha21

New User
too much wrist action.. i agree.. you look stupid throwing those damn balls on the last 2 videos.. try recording it while rallying with someone..
 

tricky

Hall of Fame
I noticed the ww motion isn't that clean, probably due to the mishits. stroke-wise everything looks good?

It's much better, and I can tell that when you do hit the ball cleanly, you have a good pop. What can help you is to make sure the racquet tip is pointing toward the net. This will help better time your initiation of the forward swing.

As Systemic said, keeping your head down will help a lot. The idea goes that you're more or less set your aim with the unit turn. After that, all you should care about is hitting the ball cleanly at the right POC. Or in other words, you don't even think about where the ball should go once you're begun your takeback. That's already been set by your unit turn; you just need to strike the ball cleanly then.

Above all, keep working on the feet and initating the unit turn by "sitting" (i.e. move butt backwards.)
 

Plisken

New User
Your other hand is there for a reason use it to point at the ball also try going high to low as in when you see the ball coming to your left hand right before your able to catch the ball in your left your racket should go 1-3 feet below the ball and then hit the ball going up to get the follow threw over the sholder and not using your wrist as much

hopefuly it helps
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
so is pronation extending your arms through the ball. Is it making your palm face the court?

Not really. The pronation that we see at contact (and after contact) is the forearm rotating to the brush the stringbed upward on the back of the ball. The racket face closes only slightly in the Fed video due to this pronation.

Not sure what you mean by "making your palm face the court".
 

mannyschotz

New User
Boojay...?

My bad, pronation at contact. Unless you're going for excess topspin, refraining from pronating too early will allow you to hit through the ball more, creating a more penetrating shot. Once you achieve this, you'll be able to strike heavier laser beam shots deep into the court.

boojay, i think i pronate too early on the forehand also and i'm wondering if you have any suggestions how i might correct it. are there any drills your pro had you do, or did he just say 'stop pronating so early'? i'm a decent player (5.5) but my forehand has always been suspect and i'm convinced i've never hit through the ball properly. thanks.
 

sharpy

Banned
A 5.5 with a suspect forehand? wow.

I'm not sure about this pronating early at contact stuff,

tricky can you verify this?
 

boojay

Hall of Fame
boojay, i think i pronate too early on the forehand also and i'm wondering if you have any suggestions how i might correct it. are there any drills your pro had you do, or did he just say 'stop pronating so early'? i'm a decent player (5.5) but my forehand has always been suspect and i'm convinced i've never hit through the ball properly. thanks.

I stopped actively pronating. Obviously, I still pronate, but it's passive because I don't force the issue. I found that by doing so, I could 'feel' the ball, allowing me to hit through the ball and produce more penetrating shots that really cut through the court and violently hit the back wall after one bounce. It's hard to describe, but the ball seems to stay on your racquet a LOT longer and you just know you hit a really good shot.
 

tricky

Hall of Fame
I'm not sure about this pronating early at contact stuff,

tricky can you verify this?
"Pronating too early" happens when the hitting elbow starts to hook upwards in the foward stroke. It's not the forearm pronation per se, but that you're then using the elbow to aid in the wiping action. And this prevents a person from hitting through the ball.

This is the general way to find out if there's "issues" with the stroke. If in your finish, the elbow is often coming up above the hand, then that the elbow is correct something in your stroke. (Pros do this a lot, but that is because they're hitting shots outside of normal POC.) Various factors can contribute to that.

In your situation, this goes back to you initiating the forward swing a little late. You want to start this before the racquet face opens up. It's not a bad idea to start if when you've just reached your height of takeback. Keeping your racquet tip pointing toward the net helps.

Probably should mention that you're trying a really advanced stroke. I probably would have gone plain vanilla before adding in all the other stuff.
 
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mrcalon

Rookie
I'm of opinion that pronation before contact is okay, depending on the amount of spin you're going for.
I do agree that you seem to be using alot of forearm to power the windshield. On a couple practice balls try this out - think of using more of your chest muscle to power the windshield wiper motion across the ball, instead of just using just your elbow/bicep. You should be able to get more racket speed and less elbow pain :)
 
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Pusher

Professional
I really don't see how anyone can determine if they have technique problems when hitting at about 50% of their power level.

I would ratchet up the intensity, stay on my toes and start hitting the ball hard. Then you will see if you have a basic technique issue. Your technique at lower power levels could be very much different than that at max power.
 
"Pronating too early" happens when the hitting elbow starts to hook upwards in the foward stroke. It's not the forearm pronation per se, but that you're then using the elbow to aid in the wiping action. And this prevents a person from hitting through the ball.

This is the general way to find out if there's "issues" with the stroke. If in your finish, the elbow is often coming up above the hand, then that the elbow is correct something in your stroke. (Pros do this a lot, but that is because they're hitting shots outside of normal POC.) Various factors can contribute to that.

In your situation, this goes back to you initiating the forward swing a little late. You want to start this before the racquet face opens up. It's not a bad idea to start if when you've just reached your height of takeback. Keeping your racquet tip pointing toward the net helps.

Probably should mention that you're trying a really advanced stroke. I probably would have gone plain vanilla before adding in all the other stuff.


tricky,

I know this is alot but I finally uploaded some pictures using the program, if you'd like you can just choose whatever particular shot interests you

http://www.geocities.com/mastamoda/backview.zip

Playing around with the forehand ended up killing it. help me clean it back up. i've lost alot of spin
 

tricky

Hall of Fame
Sharpy -- the zip file isn't opening for me. Is it damaged, or are using a really new version of Winzip?
 

tricky

Hall of Fame
Hmm, I got your C images and about half of your D images. For some reason, I'm getting "Geosite is unavailable" error when I try to get the rest.

and yea im not trying to do a straight armer I suprised myself when i saw it
Actually the extension you're getting is exactly what an "ideal" WW FH should look like. (i.e. the arm "springs" toward the ball as your body/shoulder rotates.) It's an indication that your basic mechanics (i.e. shoulder alignment, thumb-wrist, etc.) are all good.

That's a normal WW FH. The straight-arm FH variation looks a little different from that. You must be getting good depth and pace, no?
 
Hmm, I got your C images and about half of your D images. For some reason, I'm getting "Geosite is unavailable" error when I try to get the rest.

Actually the extension you're getting is exactly what an "ideal" WW FH should look like. (i.e. the arm "springs" toward the ball as your body/shoulder rotates.) It's an indication that your basic mechanics (i.e. shoulder alignment, thumb-wrist, etc.) are all good.

That's a normal WW FH. The straight-arm FH variation looks a little different from that. You must be getting good depth and pace, no?


ah, it's just crappy file transfer limits. how much of the d pics did you get? I hope whatever you got is useful so far, all the c pics right?

Actually I'd wish I could say yes to lots of depth and pace. Good pace. Little to no spin, inconsistent depth.
 

tricky

Hall of Fame
Could we see a video of yourself, Tricky? I'd like to see/know what you're talking about.
Definitely if I get one of those video camera thingies. It'll make BeHappy happier too. :D

ah, it's just crappy file transfer limits
I got up to D3 (though I got D13 separately, huh.) I have all the Cs and will follow up shortly.
 
Definitely if I get one of those video camera thingies. It'll make BeHappy happier too. :D

I got up to D3 (though I got D13 separately, huh.) I have all the Cs and will follow up shortly.

i'll get the d's uploaded on another server. the back view has some impt stuff as well.

Heck, if I was getting good pace, depth and spin i'd be dancing up and down like crazy
 

tricky

Hall of Fame
First, no idea if there's issues in the footwork department, since this is strictly about the swing. So, if there's still issues with the unit turn or feet, that's still highest priority. That said, the stance looks appropriately open and it looks like you're starting to sit and lift.

One thing that helps is to, while practice swinging this FH, to hold the racquet with just the thumb, 3rd and 4th fingers. This will expose problems in mechanics more clearly.

Onto the clips . . .

C14-15, D-12-13 show that you're getting good extension into the shot, while the arm remains relatively close to the body. That's pretty close to what an ideal "regular" WW FH should look like. There may be a slight hitch here, but I'm not quite sure. Generally this is the right look, though. As you rotate, your racquet will spring in a straight line toward the ball.

1) Your left-arm is good, but make it a little higher, hand above shoulder level. Also, try holding the racquet with the 1-3-4 fingers during shadow swinging.

2) Set C5/D6 as your height of takeback.

In other words, when the racquet is inverted and on edge, let that be the "height" of your swing. This will be the point where you stop actively taking the shoulder back, and where you start letting gravity do the rest.

In your clips, I think you have C8/D7 as your height of takeback. That is you're still continuing to actively turn the shoulder and pronate the forearm/invert the racquet beyond the point when the racquet is inverted and on edge. This is technically correct in that Federer (and Safin) often go beyond that point (as is plainly shown in the C5-C8 Federer shots), but you don't want to try that now.

3) Try a basic FH first by letting the arm drop without any forearm rotation

In other words, an Agassi-style takeback. From your new height of takeback, just let the hitting arm drop with the racquet still on edge. Your wrist may be somewhat laid back (so there's not a lot of "wrist action" here.) Let the body initiate the forward swing

This is kinda the "reference FH", in that you should still get a WW FH with plenty of wiper movement and extension of arm into the ball. You should see an end result at POC like C14-15/D12-13, but with much better wiper movement and thus better spin. You should always use this FH to work on new elements first, and then test if you get a "springing" WW forward swing.

4) Work on the wiper action with the basic FH

It's just easier to get that down now, because again all of the techniques up to now will still apply later.

The key thing about the WW FH is that, whether you have a little bit of wiper action or a lot of wiper action, the motion of the body and hitting arm doesn't change. In other words, you at no time "actively" make a wiping motion to put extra spin on the ball. Whatever you do to faciltiate wiping action should not change your basic swing.

Basically, you want your body and hitting arm to go forward, while your wrist stays back. Visualization techniques help with this. I like to imagine that the right side fence is somewhat close to me. You can imagine that you're swinging out of a slot. You can consciously keep your racquet back "longer" as you initiate the forward swing. Whatever it takes to get bigger wiping motion without changing the basic swing.

Once you get that down, you just commit that to muscle memory.

Now onto the weird stuff . . .

5) C11-12,D10-11 marks the transition beween the backswing and the forward swing.

D10-11 suggests that you're still opening up the racquet by actively supinating the forearm/opening up the racquet face (i.e. "patting the dog" at the last minute.) Which is how most people execute their FHs, but not Federer.

Your hitting arm between D10 and D11 has't move forward all that much. Contrast that with Federer's hitting arm, which has moved forward a lot between the two clips, and notice how much his wrist is laid back.

This indicates that, from that position you see in D10, Federer then drags his arm forward in a straight line, letting torque "pivot" the racquet around the wrist and open up to D11. If you watch the relative height of his elbow between C11 and C12, he doesn't let the arm "scoop" from down to up. He's literally dragging his arm in his forward swing. Now if you look at your elbow, you do let the arm scoop. That scooping motion is a normal part of the FH, but not of Federer's FH.

5A) Holding the racquet, practice dragging your arm in a straight line back and forth, letting the racquet face open up and close around the wrist. Avoid the temptation of "scooping" under this line to open up the racquet

This technique will feel a little strange, and it isn't ideal in a normal FH. But this "drag forward swing" is important before you get to the next step. Obviously, you need to have a looser wrist to facilitate this.

6) The racquet drop (where you let gravity do its thing while you pronate the forearm slightly) from C9-11,D9-10 is pretty good. The thumb-wrist line does open up a bit too much.

There's two different ways you can correct that:

6a) If you adopt the new height of takeback from step 2, then just make sure the end of your right thumb is always pointing toward the net as the racquet drop, keeping in mind to relax the wrist. In fact, the combination of the two helps to set up the right amount of forearm pronation as the racquet drop from gravity.

6b) As the racquet drops and the forearm pronates, you'll notice that the racquet head come in closer to the right side of your body through the whole racquet drop. If it doesn't, then either the wrist is not relaxing or the thumb-wrist line is opening up too much. This isn't something you force, but a sign that everything else is working.

Between D9 and D10, you can observe that Federer's racquet head is coming toward his body as his racquet drops, whereas in your drop, the racquet head is staying far away from the body.

7) It helps to just practice stages C9-12,D9-11 together. That is, work on feeling out the arm motion of the racquet drop and then the initiation of the forward by "dragging" the racquet. You know you have something if the arm springs forward at an accelerated rate with aggressive wiping action. And this occurs without really a full shoulder turn or use of the body's kinetic chain.

The arm just does this by itself: the racquet head "snaps" forward like a whip, and the arm "slings" forward.
 
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I don't get good wiper movement with the agassi forehand either.

Could you describe it a bit more? Basically, how important is it to keep the thumb wrist angle in that stroke? It feels super tempting to break that angle in the agassi stroke.

Do you purposely drop the shoulder/elbow in that stroke? When i do that stroke it feels like im arming like crazy.

I never really understood the traditional ww so i just kinda jumped to this advanced model.
 

tricky

Hall of Fame
Do you purposely drop the shoulder/elbow in that stroke?
You reach the height of takeback, and then you let the shoulder/elbow drop from gravity. You don't actively turn the shoulder anymore once you've reached the height of your takeback. As the racquet drops, gravity continues turning and loading the shoulder for you. That's true for all "pull" WW FHs. If you do, then the elbow comes up and the thumb-wrist breaks.

Basically, how important is it to keep the thumb wrist angle in that stroke?
Until you initiate the forward swing. During the transition between the backswing and the forward, the thumb-wrist naturally "opens" to enable the forearm to rotate freely.

I never really understood the traditional ww so i just kinda jumped to this advanced model.
Yeah, that makes sense. In your old stroke, you could continue actively taking back the racquet until your arm couldn't go anymore. That is consistent with the "push" style.
 
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You reach the height of takeback, and then you let the shoulder/elbow drop from gravity. You don't actively turn the shoulder anymore once you've reached the height of your takeback. As the racquet drops, gravity continues turning and loading the shoulder for you. That's true for all "pull" WW FHs. If you do, then the elbow comes up and the thumb-wrist breaks.

Until you initiate the forward swing. During the transition between the backswing and the forward, the thumb-wrist naturally "opens" to enable the forearm to rotate freely.

Yeah, that makes sense. In your old stroke, you could continue actively taking back the racquet until your arm couldn't go anymore. That is consistent with the "push" style.


So would you actively drop the shoulder/elbow down after the height of takeback, or would you somehow just let gravity do it?
 

tricky

Hall of Fame
or would you somehow just let gravity do it?

If you don't let gravity do it, you'll notice that your elbow starts hooking up, and you may get into the habit of literally pulling the cap through the forward swing. Which is not what you want to do.
 
If you don't let gravity do it, you'll notice that your elbow starts hooking up, and you may get into the habit of literally pulling the cap through the forward swing. Which is not what you want to do.

When i try that stroke i feel a few things.

1. thumb wrist wants to straighten out, especially if i let gravity drop it down

2. also arm wants to straighten out too, conciously dropping elbow seems to help stop this and also a sure way to keep the thumb wrist (although it feels real tense)

3. I can't visualize the transition between racket tip to net and maintaining a elbow bend while dropping without taking the arm a bit further back
 

tricky

Hall of Fame
BTW, I assuming your left arm is in a high position, right? I know that Agassi has his back shoulder over his front, which causes other things to happen in his takeback.

1. thumb wrist wants to straighten out, especially if i let gravity drop it down

2. also arm wants to straighten out too, conciously dropping elbow seems to help stop this and also a sure way to keep the thumb wrist (although it feels real tense)
Okay I think I understand. Yeah, in the normal WW style, your whole arm including the bend of the elbow moves as one unit. When you set up the unit turn, the hand, elbow, and shoulder moves together as one unit.

When you let gravity drop, the hand, elbow, and shoulder drop as one unit. The bend in the elbow and the bend in the wrist are preserved until you initiate the forward swing.

taking the arm a bit further back

Well, as gravity drops the arm, it should continue going back, while preserving both elbow and wrist bend. The forearm doesn't pivot or swing around the elbow in the takeback.
 
BTW, I assuming your left arm is in a high position, right? I know that Agassi has his back shoulder over his front, which causes other things to happen in his takeback.

Okay I think I understand. Yeah, in the normal WW style, your whole arm including the bend of the elbow moves as one unit. When you set up the unit turn, the hand, elbow, and shoulder moves together as one unit.

When you let gravity drop, the hand, elbow, and shoulder drop as one unit. The bend in the elbow and the bend in the wrist are preserved until you initiate the forward swing.



Well, as gravity drops the arm, it should continue going back, while preserving both elbow and wrist bend. The forearm doesn't pivot or swing around the elbow in the takeback.

yes!

I think thats my problem. I reach the height of takeback with a proper thumb wrist, then i pivot the forearm some more around the elbow and then drop...

p.s. I'm sorry to bother you about all this
 

tricky

Hall of Fame
I'm sorry to bother you about all this

You've spent a long time putting together those pix, so I have to give it a shot. I don't make it easier on

then i pivot the forearm some more around the elbow and then drop...

And yeah, that is a normal part of a push-style stroke. When you do that, the arm straightens out and the racquet face opens up. The Williams sisters are a good example of that stroke. Whenever I look at somebody's stroke, I try to figure out which version they're using, because the mechanics end up being so different.
 
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