Lansdorp: Cheating in Jr Tennis

The comment below was written by Robert Lansdorp (note: originally from the forums at tennisplayer.net)

Enormous Cheating has to Stop Now! Robert Lansdorp

Recently I was asked to become a member of a special advisory council for USTA player development, so apparently I am now officially entitled to share my opinions about what is happening in American junior tennis.

So let me start by making a few comments about a topic no one ever talks about publicly: the enormous amount of cheating now going on in junior tennis. Maybe the most shocking thing is that it’s so prevalent in the younger divisions, the 14 and unders, and even the 12s.

I’m not talking about an occasional bad call here and there. I’m talking about a culture that almost sees cheating as part of the game, almost as a strategy to use at certain times to win matches. Somehow that is now ok.

Here’s an amazing and shocking example from a national tournament in Florida in the girls 14 and under division.

Like most tournaments today, at this tournament there were scorecards on the court. If you’ve seen them, you know that the kids are supposed to flip the cards on the changeovers so the spectators and officials can see the score. The kids are also supposed to turn the cards so that the card with each player’s score points to his or her side of the court.

So here is what happened. At 4 all in the third set, one of the players holds serve to go up 5-4. As they change sides, the player who held serve flips the scorecard to show that she now has 5 games and the other girl has 4. But she neglects to turn the scoreboard so that the 5 is pointing to her side of the court.

So the girl that is behind 4-5 serves and wins the next game. The actual score is now 5 all. But the girl that just held serve claims she has now won the match. She claims that since the 5 was pointing to her side, she was the one who was ahead 5-4, and that she just won the third set 6-4.

Of course the other girls says no way, it’s 5 all, and calls the official to the court and explains the situation. And guess what? The official looks at the scorecard, sees which way the numbers are pointing, and awards the match to the girl who just cheated on the score. So here you have a young girl, whose family traveled all the way to Florida to watch her get cheated out of a match at 5 all in the third.

But the problem actually goes beyond incidents like this that are just between players. More and more the families are getting involved in the gamesmanship. They are clapping and cheering on every point, including clapping when the opponent kid chokes or makes a bad error.

Here’s another horrible story. In a first round match in another national tournament, the family of a younger player who upset a seed in the first round ran on the court and carried her off on their shoulders. Carried a 12 year kid off the court after a first round match! What’s going to happen if this kid wins a match in the junior French Open?

Sometimes you see the adults in the families yelling at each other from opposite sides of the court. I won’t go into details but I even know of some incidents that have ended up in physical confrontations with the dads exchanging blows.

So what’s the solution? The tournaments and the USTA have to step in right now and get this problem under control before it becomes even more widespread. I mean enact a zero tolerance policy.

In the old days there were far fewer kids playing tournaments and it was much more controlled. Everything happened more or less where everyone could see it, including the officials. Now you have literally hundreds of kids playing the big national and international events. They are spread out at multiples sites that can be 10 miles away from each other. And the amount of supervision is completely inadequate.

Think about it, there is no other sport where kids compete against each other with absolutely no direct supervision. It doesn’t happen in soccer. It doesn’t happen in basketball. What if in basketball, the kids were allowed to make all their own calls? Then if there was a dispute, they call out the referee who has been sitting around in the lounge and didn’t even see what happened first hand—and he comes out on the court and tries to figure it out? It’s ridiculous to even contemplate. But that’s what we have now in tennis.

The parents get very disillusioned. They spend thousands of dollars and then watch their kids getting cheated out of matches. I know for a fact it’s causing kids to quit the game.

The responsibility to fix this lies with the tournament directors. If they want to run these huge tournaments, than they have to have control over what happens and the ability to make sure all the athletes follow the rules. A couple of roving umpires isn’t going to get the job done. What we need in junior tennis is a stationary umpire for every two courts.

It costs $100 to enter some of these big tournaments. For that amount the least the kids should expect is a chance to let their tennis do the talking, without all these ridiculous other factors that have no place whatsoever in our sport. It has to stop and not next year, it has to stop now.

USTA is always behind in these things... no guts to step in...

yeah especially when we traveled to play a tournament a the parents are yelling to the official its 5-3!!!!when its 4-4... it was doubles and i had forgotten the score because we had a long point but my partner remebered luckily.i think parents should be banned from yelling things to there kids... and if they do they should be kicked out...

Dang, the only cheating I've seen were some points not correct and bad calls.

This very topic was discusssed in an editorial in the USTA magazine a few months back. The best suggetsion was to have roving undercover umpires, who would sit and randomly observe matches and watch for cheating. IF they felt a player was deliberately hooking they could either warn, penalize or defaullt. My guess is it would only take one or two of the top players being defaulted for cheating and the whole problem would take care of itsself.

Unfortunately the USTA, due to a lack of conejes will never implemement such a rule. Can you imagine the parental reaction if say someone like a Donald Young or Nicole Valdisova or other "tennis prodigy" was defaulted for cheating during a big national junior event.

wally said:

This very topic was discusssed in an editorial in the USTA magazine a few months back. The best suggetsion was to have roving undercover umpires, who would sit and randomly observe matches and watch for cheating. IF they felt a player was deliberately hooking they could either warn, penalize or defaullt. My guess is it would only take one or two of the top players being defaulted for cheating and the whole problem would take care of itsself.

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NO. as a junior player myself, i must say that randomly roving umpires is probably the worst idea the USTA has came up with, next to the suspension points system.

here's a good story: one of my friends was playing one of the biggest cheaters in my section. the kid is hooking everything thats on the line or even near the line. anyway, my friend got fed up and hooked him back on one point, and it wasnt even a big point, like 0-15, 1-1 in the second or something. in my opinion, if your getting cheated that blatently like my friend, you have every right to cheat back. but you have to be 150% positive that he's cheating. anyway, my friend called the ball out that landed on the back half of the baseline. just then, the good ol' roving umpire came on the court and over ruled his call. next point, my friend serves the ball down the T and hits the inside edge of the center service line. "out" says the cheater. my friend looks at the umpire and asks if it was out, and the good ol' umpire agreed with the cheater.

another story, this ones kinda funny: same friend, different umpire. my friend has had an on and off back injury for as long as i can remember. when its acting up, he pops in a few advil or ibuprofen before his matches. the good ol' roving umpire saw him take them. he asks "what are you taking?" and my friend replies "advil. my back is hurting". the umpire takes the bottle and looks at it. no label, no nothing. "son, please come with me." he takes my friend to the tournament director. "look at what this kid is taking". the director is like "yea so what are you talking about?". the umpire says "these are steriods, no doubt about it". what the umpire didnt know is that my friend and i just came back from lunch, and after lunch we went to CVS to pick up the meds. as my friend was opening up the car door to get out, the advil fell into a puddle. the label became all squishy and whatever, so he threw out the label. my friend showed the umpire the recept, and the umpire was like "ohhh, you should have told me that before"

wow.

i would rather pay a couple extra dollars to have an umpire on every court to stop this.

yeah i think that they should have undercover umpires without the uniform so the kids cant tell if an umpire is watching them

in my opinion, if your getting cheated that blatently like my friend, you have every right to cheat back.

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...and you would be wrong. Retaliatory cheating is still cheating.

10isDad said:

...and you would be wrong. Retaliatory cheating is still cheating.

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This crap happened a lot to my kid when he was in the 12s & 14s. Back then, someone told us that "it" would take care of itself as the kids get older. Essentially it happens less & less often, the older the kids get.

Indeed, this is what I have seen occur. In the 18s, I rarely see a cheater or hear about one.

Also, get ready for college. I hear that it resurrects when they get into college and it's even worse!

I've seen all kinds of cheating: purposefully serving from the wrong side, flipping the score card, coaches signals (Weil Academy), coaches signals thru 3rd kid to the player (Weil Academy), hitting it through the net & claiming the point (Texas), unruly parents, purposefully vomiting to get "help" from the parent.

At about age 16 or 17 I noticed the kids had a saying/practice: hook me once, shame on you, hook me twice & I am going to get you. Wrong indeed, but it stopped the hooking immediately.

tennismom42 said:

This crap happened a lot to my kid when he was in the 12s & 14s. Back then, someone told us that "it" would take care of itself as the kids get older. Essentially it happens less & less often, the older the kids get.

Indeed, this is what I have seen occur. In the 18s, I rarely see a cheater or hear about one.

Also, get ready for college. I hear that it resurrects when they get into college and it's even worse!

I've seen all kinds of cheating: purposefully serving from the wrong side, flipping the score card, coaches signals (Weil Academy), coaches signals thru 3rd kid to the player (Weil Academy), hitting it through the net & claiming the point (Texas), unruly parents, purposefully vomiting to get "help" from the parent.

At about age 16 or 17 I noticed the kids had a saying/practice: hook me once, shame on you, hook my twice & I am going to get you. Wrong indeed, but it stopped the hooking immediately.

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I'm not going to name any names but yes, some of the college players I know have told me first hand that they weren't cheaters when they entered college but after playing a few weeks in college tennis they saw they had to cheat to even the playing field with these guys. Another major problem is that half these so-called officials are like 70 years old and can't see the lines themselves. They make half-ass assumptions about lines and if you make friends with them they lean towards your way. It's a horrible thing.

Great Thread

This article is quite illuminating, I had no idea cheating was so rampant, it truly is a sad state of affairs.

I seems like the USTA shares similarities with the governing bodies of the ATP and WTA tours in that they are ineffective and incompetent.

If it were my choice and I was coaching/parenting a talented player, I would do my best to replicate the success of the Williams sisters or Rafa, in that they avoided the junior circuit all together.

tennismom42 said:

This crap happened a lot to my kid when he was in the 12s & 14s. Back then, someone told us that "it" would take care of itself as the kids get older. Essentially it happens less & less often, the older the kids get.

Indeed, this is what I have seen occur. In the 18s, I rarely see a cheater or hear about one.

Also, get ready for college. I hear that it resurrects when they get into college and it's even worse!

I've seen all kinds of cheating: purposefully serving from the wrong side, flipping the score card, coaches signals (Weil Academy), coaches signals thru 3rd kid to the player (Weil Academy), hitting it through the net & claiming the point (Texas), unruly parents, purposefully vomiting to get "help" from the parent.

At about age 16 or 17 I noticed the kids had a saying/practice: hook me once, shame on you, hook my twice & I am going to get you. Wrong indeed, but it stopped the hooking immediately.

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I would say that as players get older they tend to get smarter in their cheating. The player that cheats learns to rules in and out and look for important opportunities to "use" the rules to their advantage. Heck, it only takes a few strategicly placed "hooks" to win a match. They can be blatant...after the call is made...it's made. I also see players "forget" what the score is and argue when officials get there about the point in the game where they can agree on the points...until it's back to the point they want. I see it in juniors...I see it in college...it doesn't change.

This is a nice read. Completely true.

I know this thread just pertains to Juniors but all these reasons are why I have not got involved in adult leagues and tournaments. It is sad to see the cheating by kids. We (my wife and I ) were asked to help call some lines for a middle school tournament and after the one tournament and the parents reactions I will never do it again.

Minirafa what do you have to hide? As a junior myself (not for much longer) I don't see anything wrong with the policy of undercover umpires.


If you're worried about the pressure they put on then something's wrong with you. An honest player doesn't have to worry about it and should enjoy the fact that their opponent may be unnerved.

I'm a HS Coach. All kinds of bad sportsmanship is rampant.

My players know if I see them cheat, I'll yank them right off the court and default them. And they also know I'll do it in "close" team matches. (And they are correct.)

My kids' parents know I won't stand for "Little League Parents" either.

Last year I had four players skip Practice the day before our toughest match of the season. They charted the matches for the JV players who took their places. (The kids all warn each other "Coach really means it" about his rules.)

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I played a Senior Age Group tourney where the USTA wandering official wasted ten minutes with me *after* my match warning me how I "almost" foot-faulted about a dozen times.

"Did I ever actually foot-fault?"

"No, but ..."

"Thank you. There are probably some other matches you could be watching, huh?"

Some tourneys' roving officials are good; some are not. That's life.

- KK

Chauvalito said:

... or Rafa, in that they avoided the junior circuit all together.

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Nadal most certainly did not avoid the junior circuit. He was one of the world's top ranked juniors on the Tennis Europe U14 and U12 lists. It's just that he didn't play many ITF junior events because he turned pro at a very early age.

Obviously a very hot topic, but there are some things to take into consideration....

1) Lansdorp states that other sports do not have unsupervised contests. That is somewhat false. Yes they are supervised, but by parents. Actually many of the local leagues actually have the parents as coaches and, yes, even officials for the games. Remember the hockey dad who was prosecuted for manslaughter? Cheating and bad parent behavior is not just relegated to tennis.

Most tournament directors do not make any if little money on running the events. There are two major differences in the USTA Junior Tournaments of today versus 15 years ago. Today, EVERY USTA Tournament must have a Site Referee per site AND one USTA Official per battery of courts (max of eight courts). Also each tournament must provide a new can of balls for every match, even consolation.

This means even the local novice event must meet those requirements. Fifteen years ago, a local novice tournament could run an event for $10-20 because it did not have to hire officials and could utilize used balls for consolation draws.

Those are two huge expenses for events. That is $3.00 per match for balls. (Yes I know WalMart has them for $2.16, but they do not sell in bulk often and ordering straight from Penn and Wilson, even if you have an account, means the cost is about $2.75-2.95 per can.) Officials run between $85-135 per day plus accomodations and meals, depending on your local area.

A few years ago, a group of USTA officials tried to organize a trade union for USTA officials. This would have been the death of junior tennis as unionized officials would have required even more compensation and therefore effectively raising the entry fees for events. North Carolina and some other states effectively have an organized union of officials, although thankfully not all officials in those areas do not belong to the state association. The state association sets the compensation for those officials.

Another issue with these changes over the years is that EVERY tournament is treated equally in regards to officials. There should be different requirements based on the level of tournament that is being conducted. A national level event should have a higher density of officials than a district event. There should also be a normal compensation for a specific level that differs from tournaments offered at other levels.

2) "Cheating" in the younger age divisions is more prevalent and does get better in the older age divisions, but why?

There is a physiological difference in younger players. Think of your eyes tracking a tennis ball. It takes pictures like the old film reels. Those pictures are played back in your mind in fast forward to create movement or "live action".

An older more athletic player has the capability to "take more pictures" per second than a younger, less athletic player who has not developed the complex neuropathways to process such information at a fast rate. Therefore a lot of people think that there are bad calls being made, when the player is using the best judgement they have available.

I know this doesn't solve the "scoring issues" related to cheating, but everyone must understand that there is a physiological difference in players who have not completed their adolescent growth spurt.

I always do an experiment with my new parents and players on line calls. I ask them to stand at the fence behind the baseline and I place a ball just behin the baseline, but hovering over the line. I ask them if the ball is in or out. The always say in because their eyes see the line "touching" the ball. Then I aks them to move to the service line and look backwards. They always say out because they now see a small gap between the line and the ball. Then I ask them to stand over the ball and look down at the baseline. They always say the ball is in again.

This shows that whether a ball is in or out all depends on 1) Your point of view of the bounce of the ball, 2) The proximity of your position to the bounce of the ball and 3) The timing of your view of the ball. Scientifically, a player of ANY level cannot see the ball actually hit their strings because the ball is touching the strings for such as short amount of time. How then can "EVERYONE" see it touch the court in the exact position every time?

I always tell my parents to keep their mouths shut and their opinions to themselves during matches. Based on the experiment we do, how in the world can they make a correct judgement on a ball 50-200 feet away from the spot on the court at an odd angle? You may think you saw something, but it does not mean it is correct!

3) If a player wants to be the best they can be, then they must understand three things: 1) All athletes are judged by only one principle: wins and losses. Look at our society and see this principle applied everyday at every level of athletics, 2) There are NO EXCUSES. If parents keep complaining about their kid lost because of coaching during the match by the other players, bad calls by the other player, the official made a bad overrule, then their kid will follow suit and make excuses to themselves and others about their play. A mature coach or parent understands that one match out of the thousands their player will play in their "career" does not mean very much in the grand scheme of things. Don't treat it as such. Players have to take responsibility for their successes and failures, even if those failures are sometimes caused by outside forces. No excuses! EVER! and 3) A goal is a dream you are willing to pay the price for. If you are unwilling to pay the price to achieve it then it is only a dream. Hard work will eventually turn into the best results you as a player can achieve. Your best hard work may not lead to a top 20 ATP/WTA ranking, but it will reveal great personal character. Achievement is easy during the early and middle stages of development, but you will have to work twice as hard to improve half as much in the latter stages of development. Chuck Kriese, one of the best collegiate coaches of all-time, calls it the 80-percentile paralysis. When a player reaches 80% of their potential, the climb to the top gets much steeper. Players have to work twice as hard just to get one step ahead of where they were. This is a major reason for burnout amongst athletes.

Just my thoughts....

Tennisprov1 said:

Obviously a very hot topic, but there are some things to take into consideration.....

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great stuff...
but unfortunately we live in a ghetto society where an athlete must show that he/she is so macho and vociferous and roar like Tiger Woods or pump it up like Hewitt or trash talk like all the NBA guys and act like they in a gangster persona to be cool or act like a jerk cry-baby like McEnroe... our tennis society looks at a gentleman like Pete Sampras and R-Fed and label them as boring.. we rather see cheater and idiots finding success because it shows they have "character"...
Robert Lansdrop lost his job with Sharapova because he voiced out that the dad was cheating by signaling her to eat bananas and stall... so what happens? she wins and get a big pay check and endorsements and gets away with cheating.. this is our life in the ghetto society that we've created ...
I saw a kid who got a wild card in a Nat'l tournament,who is a known cheater and USTA gives this kid a wild card... another known cheater gets to train free at the USTA players development site.. NICE reward for a job well done..

Kind of like the pea under the three shells- To the parents/non player eye standing at the other service line...
I can LAY three balls opposite line and you won't tell me which one is properly in or out- and thats standing still. From any other angle and moving-good luck with that.

MIGHTY MANFRED THE WONDER said:

Kind of like the pea under the three shells- To the parents/non player eye standing at the other service line...
I can LAY three balls opposite line and you won't tell me which one is properly in or out- and thats standing still. From any other angle and moving-good luck with that.

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Mighty is absolutely right. It's hard for professional umpires with nothing at stake to get it right and one expects a kid to make an effective selfless call with a ball struck at 100+ mph painting a thin line while on a dead run with a lot at stake.

What we have done is created a monster if you will. In that these kids know how much is on the line. They see their parents going to the ATM every week for their tennis. They're not idiots. The pressure distorts their thinking. I honestly don't think any child cheats out of malice toward the opponent. I think its the infrastructure that adults have created that has caused them to cheat.

Yes, I do agree that it has morphed itself to calculated cheating. Forget score switching thats yesterdays news. Todays news is ad side cheating on first serves. Ad side cheating on deep second serve returns.

Assigned chair umpires for EACH court is a possible solution. This is a definite deterrent. You will think twice about your call if someone is there the whole time with a three call overrule (point, game, match).

SoCal10s said:

great stuff...
but unfortunately we live in a ghetto society where an athlete must show that he/she is so macho and vociferous and roar like Tiger Woods or pump it up like Hewitt or trash talk like all the NBA guys and act like they in a gangster persona to be cool or act like a jerk cry-baby like McEnroe... our tennis society looks at a gentleman like Pete Sampras and R-Fed and label them as boring.. we rather see cheater and idiots finding success because it shows they have "character"...
Robert Lansdrop lost his job with Sharapova because he voiced out that the dad was cheating by signaling her to eat bananas and stall... so what happens? she wins and get a big pay check and endorsements and gets away with cheating.. this is our life in the ghetto society that we've created ...
I saw a kid who got a wild card in a Nat'l tournament,who is a known cheater and USTA gives this kid a wild card... another known cheater gets to train free at the USTA players development site.. NICE reward for a job well done..

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But again...don't make excuses, sometimes cheaters win. It happens all the time. It is part of our society. We do not live in Utopia or Eden. It is part of the real world. Accept it and do the best you can do and be at peace with yourself and the world.

You will NEVER get rid of all cheating. I agree it should not be rewarded, but running away from those situations wil not make it better. At some point down the road, you will have to face that situation. Learn to deal with it.

USTA has NEVER been fair about how they appropriate money or wildcards and other support. There is not one philosophy. The philosophy changes dependent on who is awarding and who is receiving the assistance. Why would that change now?

There was a discussion about the ranking systems (STAR vs. PPR) and how people play the system or "cheat" from other people's points of view. As I commented on that thread, no matter the system, people will and SHOULD find a way to exploit the system for their own benefit and goals. Every system has a way to maximize the benefit of the player for the least amount of effort. Learn to use the system to maximize your own goals within legal means.

There will always be "cheaters" because we all have different viewpoints. Just because I have a view that is not to your benefit does not make me a cheater from an objective point of view, although you may think what I view is not fair to yourself.

There is not some Great Objective Tennis Judge up there to render a verdict on all situations. Do your best and work towards your goals and don't make excuses. That is my philosophy.....

2) "Cheating" in the younger age divisions is more prevalent and does get better in the older age divisions, but why?

There is a physiological difference in younger players. Think of your eyes tracking a tennis ball. It takes pictures like the old film reels. Those pictures are played back in your mind in fast forward to create movement or "live action".

An older more athletic player has the capability to "take more pictures" per second than a younger, less athletic player who has not developed the complex neuropathways to process such information at a fast rate. Therefore a lot of people think that there are bad calls being made, when the player is using the best judgement they have available.

I know this doesn't solve the "scoring issues" related to cheating, but everyone must understand that there is a physiological difference in players who have not completed their adolescent growth spurt.

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Great stuff, however related to your comments above: do you have scientific proof of this? Yes the players are younger, but the ball is traveling significantly slower, as well. And, as my son pointed out: some young players don't make any bad calls, while others do - a lot.

My son's a 16 year old kid and his opinion: kids cheat because they want to win. The cheat because they, their friends and parents put too much emphasis on the outcome instead of the process. (pretty mature for a 16-year old...)

Even coaches do it without meaning to. On matchplay day at clinic, the first thing the coach asks is: what was your score?

Now, I'm not trying to necessarily dispute your physiological reasons outright; just curious if you have some documentation supporting it. Who knows, the scientist who came up with these results probably had a little hooker on his/her hands and came up with a brilliant excuse ("honestly, I'm not cheating on purpose!").

10isDad said:

Nadal most certainly did not avoid the junior circuit. He was one of the world's top ranked juniors on the Tennis Europe U14 and U12 lists. It's just that he didn't play many ITF junior events because he turned pro at a very early age.

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Thank you for the correction, I was misinformed.

10isDad said:

Great stuff, however related to your comments above: do you have scientific proof of this? Yes the players are younger, but the ball is traveling significantly slower, as well. And, as my son pointed out: some young players don't make any bad calls, while others do - a lot.

My son's a 16 year old kid and his opinion: kids cheat because they want to win. The cheat because they, their friends and parents put too much emphasis on the outcome instead of the process. (pretty mature for a 16-year old...)

Even coaches do it without meaning to. On matchplay day at clinic, the first thing the coach asks is: what was your score?

Now, I'm not trying to necessarily dispute your physiological reasons outright; just curious if you have some documentation supporting it. Who knows, the scientist who came up with these results probably had a little hooker on his/her hands and came up with a brilliant excuse ("honestly, I'm not cheating on purpose!").

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Actually there is scientific proof of the fact that junior athletes have a faster shutter speed at older ages and that older juniors have a better capacity to handle complex thoughts and actions than younger athletes. There have been several studies listed in the Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research produced by the NSCA, National Strength and Conditioning Association.

Obviously, I am not advocating for the kid who consciously makes bad calls or uses the rules to his/her benefit, but I am saying that there is a scientific basis for understanding that younger kids have less abilities to effectively track the ball and make more accurate line calls.

In regards to your comment that players cheat because friends, parents and coaches put too much emphasis on wins and losses, I return to the comment in my original thread:

All athletes are judged by only one principle: wins and losses. Look at our society and see this principle applied everyday at every level of athletics.

The point of athletics is that there is a winner and a loser. That is the entire basis of the creation of athletics.

As to the concept of sportsmanship, I refer to a quote by Pope Puis XII:

​

Not everyone will subscribe to that quote, but in the end athletics entails a winner and a loser. How they strive to achieve succes is an issue that speaks to the character of the individual competitor and is an issue within themselves, but we as a separate competitor must not use another competitor's unsportsmanlike behavior as an excuse/reason for own own failure to achieve victory.

Of course Landsdorp is right about the example he cited. But I think it is important to distinguish between the blatant examples of cheating, such as the one cited by Landsdorp, and botched (but unmalicious) line calls. In terms of "bad" line calls, I remember reading an excellent article by a college coach, whose name I can't recall. He pointed out that complaining an opponent is "cheating" on line calls is most often simply an excuse for losing. He doesn't tolerate his players' complaints about line calling, and notes that botched line calls are a part of the human factor of the game, that they're done almost always without malicious intent, and that they mostly even out over the course of a match. In my own experience, I have to agree. Kids in the younger age divisions are good for at least two or three botched calls a match, and it almost always evens out over the course of a match. If you're a kid who's worried that the other kid is going to cheat you on line calls, then you're going to end up playing stressed, scared, and looking to find an excuse for losing. To paraphrase Arthur Ashe, who never let a botched call bother him: "My bad for hitting it so close to the line..."

The other factor is the better and most highly competitive kids are going to call the lines tight. It's these kids that often get accused of "cheating," maybe because they call lines tighter than other kids, maybe out of jealousy ("he only wins because he cheats"), and maybe as an excuse for losing. Parents need to not buy into a losing kid's excuse that the other kid was "cheating" on line calls. It's much better to encourage the kid to move on to the next point, next game, etc.

Kaptain Karl is truely a good man with strong moral convictions. I am impressed.

Kaptain Karl said:

I'm a HS Coach. All kinds of bad sportsmanship is rampant.

My players know if I see them cheat, I'll yank them right off the court and default them. And they also know I'll do it in "close" team matches. (And they are correct.)

My kids' parents know I won't stand for "Little League Parents" either.



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That is Admirable, Kaptain. In today's Junior tennis, there is alot of pressure from the parents to pamper a certain talented player. but the Rule should apply to all players. Cheating can't be tolerated, wether it is in Live matches or practice.
Kaptain, if you see your own player cheating in a Live Varsity match, do you default him even at the risk of your team losing ? or do you talk to the player afterwards ?? If there was a parent present, you default your own player, you could be facing some Angry parent. how do you handle situation like this ? Thank you and Keep up the GREAT work with the Juniors.

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What is interesting about this thread is that it brings one to think cheating in life context;

Does every teaching pro on this thread report all his / her cash payments on their taxes, or lease payments correctly on a car etc. It is really no different it is an infrastructure that gives you that opening to allow human nature to dictate your decision. From there you have to decide what to do or not do.

The difference is we are talking about kids and the infrastructure that has been built for them. Before accusing them of this or that. First, is it done with malice? I don't think so. Second, is there pressure coming to them from forces beyond their control that affect their decisions? Yes. Last, can the infrastructure be changed so as to prevent them from having to contend with these issues at such young ages? To that I say YES but there has to be a willingness to change.

The three overrule penalties I think are great, but if there isn't anyone there to enforce the rule, who cares? A chair umpire on assigned court is the same as a cop at assigned corners. You will think twice before speeding.

I don't know whether there is money to appoint many umpires. This year, I was a volunteer at a big USTA junior event spread over a weekend, and my duties were supposed to be selling food and drinks during the breaks to make the club some extra money, and to hand out schedules to the players early morning.

Then all of a sudden the head umpire handed me a roving judge badge and asked me to observe certain matches, since no one else was available. I even "kicked off" matches by doing the coin toss. Apparently, the only credentials required was that he determine that I could be a roving judge, because I have no PTA/PTR/USTA certifications! It came to that because the semi-public club I play is a USTA sanctioned junior tourney sitebut has no resources for paid umpires/officials and rely on volunteers like me.

sureshs said:

I don't know whether there is money to appoint many umpires. This year, I was a volunteer at a big USTA junior event spread over a weekend, and my duties were supposed to be selling food and drinks during the breaks to make the club some extra money, and to hand out schedules to the players early morning.

Then all of a sudden the head umpire handed me a roving judge badge and asked me to observe certain matches, since no one else was available. I even "kicked off" matches by doing the coin toss. Apparently, the only credentials required was that he determine that I could be a roving judge, because I have no PTA/PTR/USTA certifications! It came to that because the semi-public club I play is a USTA sanctioned junior tourney sitebut has no resources for paid umpires/officials and rely on volunteers like me.

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You were actually acting as a court monitor, not a roving umpire. Although the referee may have used the term roving umpire, you technically were not one. The tournament may have people that are used as court monitors to observe line calls and foot faults; however, any rule or scoring disputes and you would have needed to have a certified umpire handle it.

tenniscrazed said:

What is interesting about this thread is that it brings one to think cheating in life context;

Does every teaching pro on this thread report all his / her cash payments on their taxes, or lease payments correctly on a car etc. It is really no different it is an infrastructure that gives you that opening to allow human nature to dictate your decision. From there you have to decide what to do or not do.

The difference is we are talking about kids and the infrastructure that has been built for them. Before accusing them of this or that. First, is it done with malice? I don't think so. Second, is there pressure coming to them from forces beyond their control that affect their decisions? Yes. Last, can the infrastructure be changed so as to prevent them from having to contend with these issues at such young ages? To that I say YES but there has to be a willingness to change.

The three overrule penalties I think are great, but if there isn't anyone there to enforce the rule, who cares? A chair umpire on assigned court is the same as a cop at assigned corners. You will think twice before speeding.

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What 3 overrule penalties?

SoCal10s said:

Robert Lansdrop lost his job with Sharapova because he voiced out that the dad was cheating by signaling her to eat bananas and stall... so what happens? she wins and get a big pay check and endorsements and gets away with cheating.

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Any evidence of that? All I have heard is he publicly stated that he was pissed that Sharapova did not gift him a lot of money after she achieved success. This was not in his contract - he just went public about it because he felt she should have done this for him. Later, she gifted him a Mercedes I think.

I would like to see the source for your claims.

Tennisprov1, I am really enjoying your posts. Well written and well argued....

IMO, there is a big difference between "cheating" and "missing some calls." Like it or not we ALL will miss a few calls. (I'd prefer to miss in my opponent's favor and play a ball which could be OUT. And I'd prefer my players did the same.)

With one of the up-and-coming Juniors in our area, I am convinced he cheats. He calls balls which are 8-10 inches IN on his baseline "out". He does this consistently. These are not "missed calls." When the ball is 2.5 to three "balls" IN and he regularly calls these OUT, he either possesses horrible eyesight or he's cheating. What makes me say he cheats is ... he NEVER errs on the side of his opponent.

Tennisprov1 said:

... a lot of people think that there are bad calls being made, when the player is using the best judgement they have available.

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Yes.

... there is a physiological difference in players who have not completed their adolescent growth spurt.

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Well done, Tennisprov1. True.

I always tell my parents to keep their mouths shut and their opinions to themselves during matches. Based on the experiment we do, how in the world can they make a correct judgement on a ball 50-200 feet away from the spot on the court at an odd angle? You may think you saw something, but it does not mean it is correct!

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Bingo!

There are NO EXCUSES. If parents keep complaining about their kid lost because of coaching during the match by the other players, bad calls by the other player, the official made a bad overrule, then their kid will follow suit and make excuses to themselves and others about their play. A mature coach or parent understands that one match out of the thousands their player will play in their "career" does not mean very much in the grand scheme of things. Don't treat it as such. Players have to take responsibility for their successes and failures, even if those failures are sometimes caused by outside forces. No excuses! EVER!

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100% correct.

Achievement is easy during the early and middle stages of development, but you will have to work twice as hard to improve half as much in the latter stages of development. Chuck Kriese, one of the best collegiate coaches of all-time, calls it the 80-percentile paralysis. When a player reaches 80% of their potential, the climb to the top gets much steeper. Players have to work twice as hard just to get one step ahead of where they were. This is a major reason for burnout amongst athletes.

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Yup.

tenniscrazed said:

It's hard for professional umpires with nothing at stake to get it right and one expects a kid to make an effective selfless call with a ball struck at 100+ mph painting a thin line while on a dead run with a lot at stake.

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I admit I'm "picking nits" here, but very few of the Juniors -- and even more rarely the under 12 kids are hitting balls "100+ MPH." C'mon!

LeftyServe said:

... I think it is important to distinguish between the blatant examples of cheating, such as the one cited by Landsdorp, and botched (but unmalicious) line calls.

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Yes. Big difference.

The other factor is the better and most highly competitive kids are going to call the lines tight.

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This reminds me of my Junior days (think "wood racquets"). I have *always* had a bigger serve than most of my peers. I got very used to my opponents playing 2nd Serves which -- to me -- looked OUT. When I'd get into the Quarters and Semis of tourneys, I got fewer "cheap" calls like that. I had to play BETTER as I got deeper in the draws. (Which was perfectly fine with me. I actually preferred playing those better players, who (generally) called all lines better.)

Fedace said:

That is Admirable, Kaptain.

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Thanks, but I disagree. It's just tennis ... how it is meant to be.

Kaptain, if you see your own player cheating in a Live Varsity match, do you default him even at the risk of your team losing?

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Of course.

But remember my point earlier in this post. If my players are "missing" calls the "misses" go for them and against them. If they are blatantly cheating, and I see it from the optimum angle ... they're defaulted.

A few years ago we had a Senior who'd never touched a tennis racquet who made the team(!). (His biggest asset was his unconventional strokes produced *sick* spins which the other players rarely faced.)

He was playing #4 Dubs and a rally ball from the opponents landed in the middle of the Alley -- nowhere near the line. He caught the ball after calling "Out". The opponents, who were winning 3-0 on the 2nd set after winning the first 6-0 (rightly) asked, "Are you sure?" When he said, "Yes" they looked at each other, shrugged and got on with the 0-0 drubbing of our players.

I post this because my player wasn't "cheating"; IMO. He simply got mixed-up. I immediately informed the opposing Coach, "He's new to tennis this season. I think he just got his "wires crossed," and he fully understood.

or do you talk to the player afterwards??

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This, too.

If there was a parent present, you default your own player, you could be facing some Angry parent. how do you handle situation like this?

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I think this has never been a problem *because* of what I address in our Parents Meeting at the beginning of each season: I explain this team is not a "democracy," but a (hopefully, benevolent) dictatorship, and I am the dictator. I also tell them that when I was a Junior player, I made Jonny Mac look like an ANGEL(!) and I really wish someone in authority had "jerked me up short" and let me know my misbehavior would not be tolerated. (Which never happened for me.) I let the parents and players know *I am that authority;* that I will NOT do their players the disservice of letting them be brats, poor sports or bad teammates.

I hope by "setting the stage" at the outset, it has prevented the ugliness you ask about.

- KK

woodrow1029 said:

You were actually acting as a court monitor, not a roving umpire. Although the referee may have used the term roving umpire, you technically were not one. The tournament may have people that are used as court monitors to observe line calls and foot faults; however, any rule or scoring disputes and you would have needed to have a certified umpire handle it.

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Right. I was asked to refer conflicts to the umpire (who was away on breaks more than once )

10isDad said:

Great stuff, however related to your comments above: do you have scientific proof of this? Yes the players are younger, but the ball is traveling significantly slower, as well. And, as my son pointed out: some young players don't make any bad calls, while others do - a lot.

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I don't know if there's any scientific evidence, but I've watched my share of girls junior tournies in SoCal and an observation I've made is that they all make bad calls throughout the match- for better or for worse. I tell my kid that for every "bad" call an opponent made against her, they usually have played at least five balls as "good" that were actually out. This is especially true on serves. They all play long serves. Therefore, maybe their eyesight really isn't that great.

woodrow1029 said:

What 3 overrule penalties?

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I'm not sure about USTA tourneys/competition, but in college, after you are overruled three times, you get an unsportmanslike code violation for that 3rd overrule, and for every subsequent overrule, IIRC.

Rob_C said:

I'm not sure about USTA tourneys/competition, but in college, after you are overruled three times, you get an unsportmanslike code violation for that 3rd overrule, and for every subsequent overrule, IIRC.

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That is true in college tennis. That rule does not apply to USTA junior, senior or league tennis though.

As an umpire, I support that rule being put in to USTA rules.

It isn't just junior tennis. 1:58 in.

Just long? It is just me or did the ball land INSIDE the baseline?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCRV9sfPxoQ&

i think i saw that vid b4 and i was wondering that 2... yeah i think ur rite it was def. in...

that ball was very in...and that cant poosibly be 3.5 #1 singles!!

Okazaki Fragment said:

It isn't just junior tennis. 1:58 in.

Just long? It is just me or did the ball land INSIDE the baseline?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCRV9sfPxoQ&

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I believe that's an example of a *possible* "missed call." I cannot support those who consider that call "cheating".

a) I had to watch the clip five times before I was able to determine the call "may" have been wrong. The clip simply is not definitive.

b) He was backing away from a shot at his feet, which is a difficult call to see anyway. One of the situations more likely to produce error....

c) I did note he "marked a spot" with his racket which clearly was NOT where the ball had landed. The ball hit about a ball or two to his Left of where he "marked" the ball. (That "marking" thing *is* somewhat suspicious on hard courts.) But I still cannot judge that as "cheating".

d) He's a good guy. A few Deuces later he played a 2nd Serve they both thought was out ... and gave his opponent a Let. (He did not have to do that.)

e) If those guys are 3.5's I know some players here who'd like to move into that Section. (IOW, they seem more like 3.0's to me.) That was a very boring 7 minutes.

- KK

Okazaki Fragment said:

It isn't just junior tennis. 1:58 in.

Just long? It is just me or did the ball land INSIDE the baseline?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCRV9sfPxoQ&

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Seeing the video, I wouldn't say that this guy was cheating. Based on his court position and the flight path of the ball, I think he assumed that the ball was going to be out and never bothered to look down at the point of contact where the ball met the court. He had already made his decision as to the ball being out but I don't see it as cheate per se. I see that a lot on the rec level and I've even pointed it out to an opponent or two that I don't agree with the call and I leave it at that.

On the flip side of that, in a college match, I hit a shot that both my opponent and I viewed as out. One of these roving umps steps in (without provocation from either of us) and calls the ball good and awards the point to me. At that point, my opponent and I are in a debate with the ump about how he can possibly "over-rule" a call that the two players agree upon. Needless to say, we proceeded played out the game as if the ump had never opened his mouth in the first place. He gets upset and threatens to default us both. We both agree to "play" according to his rules, but on the next point I basically give it to my opponent and the match moves on.

Gemini said:

Seeing the video, I wouldn't say that this guy was cheating. Based on his court position and the flight path of the ball, I think he assumed that the ball was going to be out and never bothered to look down at the point of contact where the ball met the court. I see that a lot on the rec level and I've even pointed to an opponent or two that I don't agree with the call and leave it at that.

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I agree. Based on the way he yelled out. I think he just made a bad line call with no harm intended. I also think the player on the other side handled it very well. This leads me to believe that this was the first questionable call that he had made. I don't think it was an intentional cheat.

Kaptain Karl said:

I believe that's an example of a *possible* "missed call." I cannot support those who consider that call "cheating".

a) I had to watch the clip five times before I was able to determine the call "may" have been wrong. The clip simply is not definitive.

b) He was backing away from a shot at his feet, which is a difficult call to see anyway. One of the situations more likely to produce error....

c) I did note he "marked a spot" with his racket which clearly was NOT where the ball had landed. The ball hit about a ball or two to his Left of where he "marked" the ball. (That "marking" thing *is* somewhat suspicious on hard courts.) But I still cannot judge that as "cheating".

d) He's a good guy. A few Deuces later he played a 2nd Serve they both thought was out ... and gave his opponent a Let. (He did not have to do that.)

e) If those guys are 3.5's I know some players here who'd like to move into that Section. (IOW, they seem more like 3.0's to me.) That was a very boring 7 minutes.

- KK

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a) Huh? Did you watch in HQ?

b) Isn't it incumbent upon the player to actually "see" the ball that he is calling out?

c) Anyone who points out a ball mark on a hard court is cheater or a cheater in situ.

d) Perhaps he was feeling guilty for calling out a ball THAT LANDED INSIDE THE BASELINE(!!).

e) Watching patty cake tennis is relaxing.

Anyway, I'm just joking. You're right, it could have been a honest mistake. How hard is it to build sensors on the lines of tennis courts? We have the technology...

Okazaki Fragment said:

How hard is it to build sensors on the lines of tennis courts? We have the technology...

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I have thought about that. Apart from the cost issue, the problem of false alarms when players step on it needs to be addressed. It is not an impossible thing. Also you have to hook it up to a computer and be selective, otherwise any time a ball touches the lines something will go beep. The ideal combination will be Hawk eye to record the situation and the line sensor to signal if a ball touched it. Even Hawk-eye can be eliminated - a simple video recording with timestamp will provide the event log, which can be correlated to a sensor detection event.

A very misleading headline on the thread.

I thought Robert Lansdorp was doing the cheating.

Wasn't this article posted by him on tennisplayer.net? Why no citation for wherever it is from anyway?

-SF

10is Dad,

That is a piece of copyrighted writing from Tennisplayer.net. If you want to post it two things. First you ask and get my permission (which you would probably get.) Second you acknowledge the source. Not cool otherwise.

JohnYandell said:

10is Dad,

That is a piece of copyrighted writing from Tennisplayer.net. If you want to post it two things. First you ask and get my permission (which you would probably get.) Second you acknowledge the source. Not cool otherwise.

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Didn't know. Something sent to me via e-mail in text format. Thought it was interesting so posted it. Sorry...

I see that the original article was posted in the forum section of tennisplayer.net and have edited the original post to include a note to that fact.