Question on WW swing path for Will/FYB/ Other experts

oldhacker · May 7, 2009

I have been studying the FYB analysis of the WW forehand to try to get a better understanding. It makes a lot of sense but I am left with one big question.

Essentially the analysis says that the difference (from a 'conventional' forehand) is in the swing path of the racquet head to contact which is more vertical for the WW. This makes perfect sense but does not address the question of how that swingpath is made more vertical. To my mind there are 3 main possible sources of a steeper swing path the contact as follows:

1. Elbow lifted at steeper angle towards contact than on the conventional forehand. This lift comes from the shoulder joint raising the upper arm out in front.

2. Rotation of whole arm from the shoulder starting JUST BEFORE and through contact.

3. Rotation of lower arm only from the elbow (pronation) starting before and through contact.

Much of what I have read elsewhere seems to imply that (2) and (3) should not happen before contact. However I find it hard to see how a WW finish follows from (1) alone and think that (2) is also an essential component with the WW finish being a continuation of the shoulder rotation initiated just before contact.

Any views much appreciated.

Another smaller question I have concerns extension on the WW forehand. The FYB analysis seems to show hitting through the ball and then the racquet wiping across the front of the body with the racquet at a pretty vertical angle. However when I look at, say Nadal's, forehand (both his wrap around and reverse finish) he still gets great extension after contact with the racquet tip point down the court (with strings closed rather than open as in a conventional forehand) before the 'wipe' across the body happens. I think this is mainly caused by the wrist releasing from the laid back position and extending after contact. This seems natural to me.

wihamilton · May 7, 2009

Hey oldhacker. Very good question -- one we plan on addressing in a video shortly. Not all WW forehands are the same. There are basically two ways to hit one.

The first way is to modify your swing path -- make it more vertical. This is the method we taught in the WW video. Jeff Counts of Hi-TechTennis.com describes the WW motion as lifting and turning over a lever. I think this is a pretty good anology. You lift the racket up, across the ball prior to and through contact. After you hit, your arm and the racket turn over, creating the WW follow through.

Here are two examples of pros who do this --

Roddick -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpocoSPRkMA

Djokovic -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jk1eqm_vazU

And keep in mind the majority of pros on tour hit using this technique.

Several pros -- Federer, Nadal, Verdasco, Tsonga, for example -- do something else to hit a WW forehand. Their WW motion is created by turning their hand / forearm over, which is what you allude to in #3. This starts right before contact and, of course, is most noticeable during the follow through.

Verdasco is a great guy to look at because he makes this motion very obvious. When you watch the following video, look at how much he drops the racket down, below his hand during his foreward swing. However, at contact the racket is often in-line with his hand because he has turned his hand and forearm over to bring the racket up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LetxCiRKSh8

IMO, this second method is the superior way to hit a WW forehand IF YOU'RE GOOD ENOUGH TO DO IT. It's definitely way more difficult that the first method. The reason we taught the first method is because it only requires a couple adjustments to hit, assuming you have a fundamentally sound forehand. The second method, however, is superior because it allows you to disconnect the direction your arm is swinging from the WW motion. In other words, your arm isn't responsible for creating the WW motion, your hand and forearm is. Take Federer -- he can hit extremely hard -- swing straight through the ball -- but still be very consistent because he uses his hand / arm to generate topspin. Nadal, on the other hand, has a much more vertical swing path AND turns his hand / forearm over to produce the WW motion. That's why he hits w/more topspin than anyone else on tour.

If I were going to recommend a progression for learning the WW, I would definitely suggestion the easier method #1 to start. Keep in mind that you can have a world-class, top-10 forehand with this technique.

oldhacker · May 7, 2009

Thanks for such a detailed reply Will. So if I understand you correctly the 'majority WW forehand' ) Djoko, Roddick etc. gets the lift from source 1 (elbow / upper arm lifting) plus a bit of 2 (upper arm rotation starting just before contact) ?

It is really hard to track what is happening when analysing pro videos because of the lack of reference points on the arm. If you could get Federer to let you film him with red dots painted on the inside of his bicep and palm side of lower arm it would be a load easier.

I think the main visual pointer to the pronation and wrist release unique to the Federer, Nadal, Verdasco version is the way the racquet face closes noticeably very soon after contact whereas with the majority WW it stays a lot more open and more parallel to the net during the wipe across the body. Also the racquet tip extends out more in the direction of the shot. This means the the follow through of the Fed/Nad/Verd version os more like windshield wiper which have been turned on while pulled forward to change the blades !

For me I am still confused as to the way to go in developing my forehand to add a decent WW to my repetoire. I have been working very hard recently to get the feel of good extension on my forehand (so that if I were to stand and with my contact point a racquets length from the net my racquet tip would clip the net on the follow through) and I am slowly getting to grips with it. The majority WW seems to do away with this extension and I am worried I will revert to old bad habits !

wihamilton said:
Hey oldhacker. Very good question -- one we plan on addressing in a video shortly. Not all WW forehands are the same. There are basically two ways to hit one.

The first way is to modify your swing path -- make it more vertical. This is the method we taught in the WW video. Jeff Counts of Hi-TechTennis.com describes the WW motion as lifting and turning over a lever. I think this is a pretty good anology. You lift the racket up, across the ball prior to and through contact. After you hit, your arm and the racket turn over, creating the WW follow through.

Here are two examples of pros who do this --

Roddick -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpocoSPRkMA

Djokovic -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jk1eqm_vazU

And keep in mind the majority of pros on tour hit using this technique.

Several pros -- Federer, Nadal, Verdasco, Tsonga, for example -- do something else to hit a WW forehand. Their WW motion is created by turning their hand / forearm over, which is what you allude to in #3. This starts right before contact and, of course, is most noticeable during the follow through.

Verdasco is a great guy to look at because he makes this motion very obvious. When you watch the following video, look at how much he drops the racket down, below his hand during his foreward swing. However, at contact the racket is often in-line with his hand because he has turned his hand and forearm over to bring the racket up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LetxCiRKSh8

IMO, this second method is the superior way to hit a WW forehand IF YOU'RE GOOD ENOUGH TO DO IT. It's definitely way more difficult that the first method. The reason we taught the first method is because it only requires a couple adjustments to hit, assuming you have a fundamentally sound forehand. The second method, however, is superior because it allows you to disconnect the direction your arm is swinging from the WW motion. In other words, your arm isn't responsible for creating the WW motion, your hand and forearm is. Take Federer -- he can hit extremely hard -- swing straight through the ball -- but still be very consistent because he uses his hand / arm to generate topspin. Nadal, on the other hand, has a much more vertical swing path AND turns his hand / forearm over to produce the WW motion. That's why he hits w/more topspin than anyone else on tour.

If I were going to recommend a progression for learning the WW, I would definitely suggestion the easier method #1 to start. Keep in mind that you can have a world-class, top-10 forehand with this technique.

wihamilton · May 7, 2009

oldhacker said:
Thanks for such a detailed reply Will. So if I understand you correctly the 'majority WW forehand' ) Djoko, Roddick etc. gets the lift from source 1 (elbow / upper arm lifting) plus a bit of 2 (upper arm rotation starting just before contact) ?

The majority of pros produce the WW motion by swinging their arm and the racket "up" more than on a classic forehand. The arm / racket swing as one piece from the shoulder. Elbow isn't doing anything independent of the rest of the hitting-arm structure. Forearm / hand isn't rotating prior to contact.

It is really hard to track what is happening when analysing pro videos because of the lack of reference points on the arm. If you could get Federer to let you film him with red dots painted on the inside of his bicep and palm side of lower arm it would be a load easier.

Heh I'll see what I can do.

I think the main visual pointer to the pronation and wrist release unique to the Federer, Nadal, Verdasco version is the way the racquet face closes noticeably very soon after contact whereas with the majority WW it stays a lot more open and more parallel to the net during the wipe across the body. Also the racquet tip extends out more in the direction of the shot. This means the the follow through of the Fed/Nad/Verd version os more like windshield wiper which have been turned on while pulled forward to change the blades !

This is a product of the swing direction. Federer, for example, has a very horizontal swing path. As a result, the racket will release into the court -- close -- even as he produces the WW finish. Compare that with Roddick's WW. His arm is swinging up waaay more than Fed's. So the racket isn't going to release into the court nearly as much, which is why the strings stay more parallel to the net.

For me I am still confused as to the way to go in developing my forehand to add a decent WW to my repetoire. I have been working very hard recently to get the feel of good extension on my forehand (so that if I were to stand and with my contact point a racquets length from the net my racquet tip would clip the net on the follow through) and I am slowly getting to grips with it. The majority WW seems to do away with this extension and I am worried I will revert to old bad habits !

How's your traditional / classic forehand? I can't stress the importance of mastering this shot before you move on. So many people get intoxicated by the WW forehand so they just try and hit that. They never learn how to swing through the ball and, consequently, they have a tough time generating pace.

oldhacker · May 7, 2009

wihamilton said:
The majority of pros produce the WW motion by swinging their arm and the racket "up" more than on a classic forehand. The arm / racket swing as one piece from the shoulder. Elbow isn't doing anything independent of the rest of the hitting-arm structure. Forearm / hand isn't rotating prior to contact..

Thanks again Will. I realised what you meant here about the lifting of the arm as a unit from the shoulder and that there is not rotation or flexing at the elbow. I just like to visualise it as lifting the elbow from the shoulder.

wihamilton said:
How's your traditional / classic forehand? I can't stress the importance of mastering this shot before you move on. So many people get intoxicated by the WW forehand so they just try and hit that. They never learn how to swing through the ball and, consequently, they have a tough time generating pace.

I have been working hard on it and according to my coach (I am lucky to have found a good performance coach who coaches top national juniors who is also willing to slum it with an older club hack !) I have good shape / form and hit a heavy and consistant ball - providing I get my contact point and balance right. I am sure I have been hitting a variation of the WW for a while when I need to get low short balls up and down at a sharp angle on the forehand side. While I am very happy with my 'classic forehand' I do feel that I could benefit from the safety I could get from extra access to topspin for some of my baseline rally balls. I sometimes feel that the power I generate now means I am sailing a bit close to the wind in terms of net clearance and depth with my classic forehand and would like to have the option of that WW rally ball with big net clearance which dives down not too far past the service line but has enough topspin to still penetrate the court and keep my opponent behind his baseline. I am sure I will have to hit about 20,000 of them before it works anywhere near well !

iowaviking11 · May 9, 2009

So will, when you get your getting ready to swing foreward for the first method do u just "pull" the racquet up?

wihamilton · May 9, 2009

iowaviking11 said:
So will, when you get your getting ready to swing foreward for the first method do u just "pull" the racquet up?

Well you swing just like you would on a "classic" forehand. You've just altered your swing path a little bit.

toptalent · May 9, 2009

Speaking of Federer, how exactly does he create the ww topspin motion with an eastern grip? I can't figure this out even from watching his slow motion videos. When you use the eastern grip, your racquet face is naturally straight. But the point of ww is to "brush" the ball more to create that spin, thus making the semi-western and western grips very natural for the shot because the racquet face is more closed for the brushing motion. Is it safe to say Federer's shot has less topspin than the majority of other pros? Does it explain how "hard" he seems to hit? But then yet how can he be so consistent (in this prime of course) without the safety of topsin net clearance and ball dipping into court? Pure talent?

Also why can federer often create these ridiculous angles on his shots that almost no other pros can? If you watch Federer hitting winners, a lot of them aren't the "100mph monster shot deep into the open court corner" type of winners. They are often hit from locations where you're not supposed to hit winners from, into locations where you're not supposed to be able to hit to. An example, he can hit a shot from the middle of the baseline, and instead of going your routine deep crosscourt or down the line, the ball endes up somewhere close to the intersection of opponent service line and sideline and going out wide, resulting in straight winners. He can hit this from both his deuce court and ad court insideout. Something about his forehand is very unique, in an outrageous way.

theZig · May 9, 2009

toptalent said:
Speaking of Federer, how exactly does he create the ww topspin motion with an eastern grip? I can't figure this out even from watching his slow motion videos. When you use the eastern grip, your racquet face is naturally straight. But the point of ww is to "brush" the ball more to create that spin, thus making the semi-western and western grips very natural for the shot because the racquet face is more closed for the brushing motion. Is it safe to say Federer's shot has less topspin than the majority of other pros? Does it explain how "hard" he seems to hit? But then yet how can he be so consistent (in this prime of course) without the safety of topsin net clearance and ball dipping into court? Pure talent?

Also why can federer often create these ridiculous angles on his shots that almost no other pros can? If you watch Federer hitting winners, a lot of them aren't the "100mph monster shot deep into the open court corner" type of winners. They are often hit from locations where you're not supposed to hit winners from, into locations where you're not supposed to be able to hit to. An example, he can hit a shot from the middle of the baseline, and instead of going your routine deep crosscourt or down the line, the ball endes up somewhere close to the intersection of opponent service line and sideline and going out wide, resulting in straight winners. He can hit this from both his deuce court and ad court insideout. Something about his forehand is very unique, in an outrageous way.

Ridiculous headspeed (produced by the method Will was talking about [also responsible for Verdasco's insane FH as well as Nadal's!]), spot-on timing, and an overall amazing court sense. Just from watching Federer play, you can tell his understanding of the mechanics of the game is immense. Shots where with just a flick of the wrist he passes some of the best, or just by sticking a racket out he gets a ball back; things like these show he knows that tennis isn't "just" pretty strokes. By God does he have them, but its because he understands the fundamentals of tennis, and maximizes them.

chico9166 · May 9, 2009

toptalent said:
Speaking of Federer, how exactly does he create the ww topspin motion with an eastern grip? I can't figure this out even from watching his slow motion videos. When you use the eastern grip, your racquet face is naturally straight. But the point of ww is to "brush" the ball more to create that spin, thus making the semi-western and western grips very natural for the shot because the racquet face is more closed for the brushing motion. Is it safe to say Federer's shot has less topspin than the majority of other pros? Does it explain how "hard" he seems to hit? But then yet how can he be so consistent (in this prime of course) without the safety of topsin net clearance and ball dipping into court? Pure talent?

Also why can federer often create these ridiculous angles on his shots that almost no other pros can? If you watch Federer hitting winners, a lot of them aren't the "100mph monster shot deep into the open court corner" type of winners. They are often hit from locations where you're not supposed to hit winners from, into locations where you're not supposed to be able to hit to. An example, he can hit a shot from the middle of the baseline, and instead of going your routine deep crosscourt or down the line, the ball endes up somewhere close to the intersection of opponent service line and sideline and going out wide, resulting in straight winners. He can hit this from both his deuce court and ad court insideout. Something about his forehand is very unique, in an outrageous way.

Hey toptalent,

These are great observations, every one. The stroke is a bit of an anomaly, and a little difficult to understand. The very best resource on this subject, in my opinion, is on Tennisplayer. Yandell goes into depth, in a two part series, on the intricacies of this stroke. Which, I agree, is an absoulute jaw dropping shot. To try and paraphrase, would do a great diservice to the piece----it really is the "the source" on this subject.

oldhacker · May 9, 2009

One thing about Federer is that, according to him, he has very flexible wrists. I believe this enable him to have a semi-western swing path and contact point using an 'extreme easternish grip. This is because his wrist lays back further than most other players which is the equivalent of rotating the grip towards semi-western. Add to that ridiculous talent and timing of course !

toptalent said:
Speaking of Federer, how exactly does he create the ww topspin motion with an eastern grip? I can't figure this out even from watching his slow motion videos. When you use the eastern grip, your racquet face is naturally straight. But the point of ww is to "brush" the ball more to create that spin, thus making the semi-western and western grips very natural for the shot because the racquet face is more closed for the brushing motion. Is it safe to say Federer's shot has less topspin than the majority of other pros? Does it explain how "hard" he seems to hit? But then yet how can he be so consistent (in this prime of course) without the safety of topsin net clearance and ball dipping into court? Pure talent?

Also why can federer often create these ridiculous angles on his shots that almost no other pros can? If you watch Federer hitting winners, a lot of them aren't the "100mph monster shot deep into the open court corner" type of winners. They are often hit from locations where you're not supposed to hit winners from, into locations where you're not supposed to be able to hit to. An example, he can hit a shot from the middle of the baseline, and instead of going your routine deep crosscourt or down the line, the ball endes up somewhere close to the intersection of opponent service line and sideline and going out wide, resulting in straight winners. He can hit this from both his deuce court and ad court insideout. Something about his forehand is very unique, in an outrageous way.

toptalent · May 9, 2009

chico9166 said:
Hey toptalent,

These are great observations, every one. The stroke is a bit of an anomaly, and a little difficult to understand. The very best resource on this subject, in my opinion, is on Tennisplayer. Yandell goes into depth, in a two part series, on the intricacies of this stroke. Which, I agree, is an absoulute jaw dropping shot. To try and paraphrase, would do a great diservice to the piece----it really is the "the source" on this subject.

I'm actually a subscriber myself and have read that article, but in my opinion it did not really address my questions and it's somewhat misleading.

The article emphasized a lot on his grip in relation to his contact point/height, which makes sense because obviously the eastern grip is better for hitting the ball on the rise. He stated that the grip is better for most club level players because they do not usually face very heavy topspin high bouncing balls. HOWEVER having Federer's grip is a completely different concept from having Federer's actual stroke. Federer's stroke is nothing "traditional" like his grip is. His follow through is not over the shoulder like Samprass's. He actually has a ww swing path, but yet it's somewhat different from other SW grip player's ww swing path. I don't know if you have tried it or not, but when I used an estern grip combined with the WW swing path like my normal SW grip, the ball would fly high. It comes down to the racquet face issue I questioned in my previous post. It's simply not natural to brush the ball with an eastern grip. The eastern grip is better suited for hitting through the ball, resulting in a flatter, faster but lower error margin shot. So for the club level players, "to use Federer's grip so that they can play a forehand like Federer's" is misleading. A SW grip is much better for the majority of them IF they want to use the modern WW forehand.

Lsmkenpo · May 9, 2009

toptalent said:
SIs it safe to say Federer's shot has less topspin than the majority of other pros? Does it explain how "hard" he seems to hit? But then yet how can he be so consistent (in this prime of course) without the safety of topsin net clearance and ball dipping into court? Pure talent?

No, Federer's forehand is second on tour in avg spinrate behind Nadal,but his grip, timing and racquet head speed allows him to hit through the ball creating more pace with nearly equal spin, Federer's forehand is the greatest stroke in the history of the game, it is unique and requires insane timing and racquet head speed to accomplish. Watching him hit live up close ,you know instantly that his forehand is something special, ridiculous combination of action and pace not likely to ever be duplicated by anyone else.

toptalent · May 9, 2009

Lsmkenpo said:
No, Federer's forehand is second on tour in avg spinrate behind Nadal,but his grip, timing and racquet head speed allows him to hit through the ball creating more pace with nearly equal spin, Federer's forehand is the greatest stroke in the history of the game, it is unique and requires insane timing and racquet head speed to accomplish. Watching him hit live up close ,you know instantly that his forehand is something special, ridiculous amount of action and pace not likely to ever be duplicated by anyone else.

Holy...

Best of both world, huh.

JohnYandell · May 9, 2009

I think it's quite possible to hit just as much wiper action--say 180 degrees with Federer's grip as with the more extreme ones. We know from our spin studies he can rotate the ball as much as Roddick--2500rpm plus--if not in Nadal territory.

Definitely with the more extreme grips the spin occurs more naturally in the swing path. In fact you have to wiper more just to get the racket through. But once you start to look you see a lot of more eastern players--Henman at the end of his career, Hrbaty, and more recently Jo Willie, who wiper the hell out the ball with this style grip.

It takes some getting used to. The key is to extend like you would on a regular easternish forehand BUT as you do, turn the face over 180 degrees in an arcing motion. This means the tip of the racket points at one side line at contact, and turns over and points (roughly) at the opposite sideline at the point of greatest forward extension.

I play with more like a Sampras grip myself and found incorporating this really helped me deal with high heavy balls--and also improved by ability to control low balls and hit short angles.

MTXR · May 9, 2009

I've been working on this windshield wiper forehand and frame the ball pretty much every single time.

JohnYandell · May 9, 2009

Try looking at the spin on the ball at the top of bounce.

wihamilton · May 10, 2009

The "secret" to Federer's forehand, if you want to call it that, is his ability to combine a horizontal swing path (in other words, swing straight through the ball) with the WW motion.

To quickly address his grip -- the eastern makes swinging through the ball easier than a more extreme grip, which tend to produce more vertical swing paths. Also, his grip allows him to take time away from his opponents by catching the ball on the rise.

As I mentioned above, Federer's WW motion isn't produced by a more vertical swing path (than on a classic forehand). It's the result of him turning his hand / forearm over as he swings to the tennis ball. The motion is pretty similar to how you turn your hand when you're turning a door knob.

Watch the forehand at approx. 30 seconds. If you can download it (add "kick" before "youtube" in the URL and it will take you to a download page -- http://www.kickyoutube.com/watch?v=vCm6OIjbPr4) and watch it frame-by-brame even better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCm6OIjbPr4&fmt=18

If you freeze the forehand at around 32 seconds, the racket head is well below his hand. A split-second later he's at contact and the racket head is in-line with his hand. He's gotten the racket there by turning his hand / forearm over to bring it up. During the follow through, his hand doesn't rise at all but the racket flips over (WW finish) b/c he continues to turn it over w/his hand / forearm.

This video is a pretty extreme example of the motion. On others, the amount he drops the racket down below his hand is less severe / accentuated, making the motion prior to contact much more subtle.

An interesting comparison is Nadal. He does the exact same thing except his swing path is more vertical. So he's turning over his hand / forearm and swinging up a bunch, which is why he hits with so much topspin. He's also really hitting through the ball (not as much as Fed tho), giving him lots of pace.

chico9166 · May 10, 2009

wihamilton said:
The "secret" to Federer's forehand, if you want to call it that, is his ability to combine a horizontal swing path (in other words, swing straight through the ball) with the WW motion.

To quickly address his grip -- the eastern makes swinging through the ball easier than a more extreme grip, which tend to produce more vertical swing paths. Also, his grip allows him to take time away from his opponents by catching the ball on the rise.

As I mentioned above, Federer's WW motion isn't produced by a more vertical swing path (than on a classic forehand). It's the result of him turning his hand / forearm over as he swings to the tennis ball. The motion is pretty similar to how you turn your hand when you're turning a door knob.

Watch the forehand at approx. 30 seconds. If you can download it (add "kick" before "youtube" in the URL and it will take you to a download page -- http://www.kickyoutube.com/watch?v=vCm6OIjbPr4) and watch it frame-by-brame even better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCm6OIjbPr4&fmt=18

If you freeze the forehand at around 32 seconds, the racket head is well below his hand. A split-second later he's at contact and the racket head is in-line with his hand. He's gotten the racket there by turning his hand / forearm over to bring it up. During the follow through, his hand doesn't rise at all but the racket flips over (WW finish) b/c he continues to turn it over w/his hand / forearm.

This video is a pretty extreme example of the motion. On others, the amount he drops the racket down below his hand is less severe / accentuated, making the motion prior to contact much more subtle.

An interesting comparison is Nadal. He does the exact same thing except his swing path is more vertical. So he's turning over his hand / forearm and swinging up a bunch, which is why he hits with so much topspin. He's also really hitting through the ball (not as much as Fed tho), giving him lots of pace.

Yep, Fed has shown that one doesn't have to play with the "racquet on edge", even within the context of this very conservative grip. He can "plow through" the ball as a result of the shallow swing plane, and/or create enourmous spin rates via hand and arm rotation.

bbbbbb · May 11, 2009

so will is fyb eventually gonna show how to do federers version of the ww because i use his grip naturally and i cant mimic the brushing up method that roddick or djokovic uses

wihamilton · May 11, 2009

bbbbbb said:
so will is fyb eventually gonna show how to do federers version of the ww because i use his grip naturally and i cant mimic the brushing up method that roddick or djokovic uses

Yes -- within a week or two. However, while the video will explain what Federer does when he hits a forehand we won't "teach" it, per se. I strongly recommend you learn the Roddick / Djokovic version of the WW. It is way, way, way, way easier to learn. You can have a world-class forehand w/that technique. Hitting w/a straight arm and pronating prior to and through contact is not a requirement for a great forehand. And you're probably doing yourself a disservice if you work on that stuff at the expense of improving your footwork, perfecting your strategy, etc.

Sublime · May 11, 2009

wihamilton said:
An interesting comparison is Nadal. He does the exact same thing except his swing path is more vertical. So he's turning over his hand / forearm and swinging up a bunch, which is why he hits with so much topspin. He's also really hitting through the ball (not as much as Fed tho), giving him lots of pace.

Something I've noticed when comparing Nadal and Fed is where in the WW rotation they make contact.

If you think of them as both right handed to make the comparison easier and consider the WW motion as the face of a clock. 6 the racket it pointing straight down into the court, 12 straight up at the sky, and at 3 it's horizontal to the court.

Federer seems to make contact at 3 to 2, while Nadal makes contact at anywhere from 5 to 3. This explains the difference in the sidespin of their shots (or similarity since Nadal plays lefty). Federer's FH break away from his body, while Nadal's break into his body. Verdasco also hits at the Nadal side of the spectrum, but makes contact closer to 3 than Nadal.

wihamilton · May 11, 2009

Sublime said:
Something I've noticed when comparing Nadal and Fed is where in the WW rotation they make contact.

If you think of them as both right handed to make the comparison easier and consider the WW motion as the face of a clock. 6 the racket it pointing straight down into the court, 12 straight up at the sky, and at 3 it's horizontal to the court.

Federer seems to make contact at 3 to 2, while Nadal makes contact at anywhere from 5 to 3. This explains the difference in the sidespin of their shots (or similarity since Nadal plays lefty). Federer's FH break away from his body, while Nadal's break into his body. Verdasco also hits at the Nadal side of the spectrum, but makes contact closer to 3 than Nadal.

Keep in mind that a lot of this has to do with the height of the ball at contact. The amount they bring the racket up -- or keep it down -- is heavily influenced by where the ball is at contact.

If you watch the second video on this page you'll notice the racket head is most likely to be in-line w/Fed's hand on high balls -- 3 o'clock as you say. He's closer to 2 o'clock on low balls.

http://www.fuzzyyellowballs.com/pro-stroke-library/roger-federer/forehand/

Sublime · May 11, 2009

First off Will... that kickyoutube thing is the coolest web trick I've seen in a while. Thanks!

I see what you're saying about Federer, he uses that angle to reach down and get to low balls.

Something I just saw when looking at your video of Nadal hitting forehands from behind ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KB6EY7FxgUg&fmt=22 ). It looks like he's so good at timing this sidespin component of the WW motion, that he actually can use it as a weapon. At around 0:35 seconds he hits a FH to the deuce court that has a degree of right to left break to pull the guy out wide. Then he turns around and on the next shot he hits to the ad court and puts the reverse side spin on it and the ball kicks out wide the other way.

These pro's are something else. You can't really appreciate how hard they make it for their opponent until you see this court level footage.

wihamilton · May 11, 2009

NP -- Here's a list of 10 useful Youtube tricks --

http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/10-youtube-url-tricks-you-should-know-about/

Some pros do have a little sidespin on their groundstrokes. I hit with a former pro named Lawson Duncan (top 40 / made it to the quarters of the FO) and his forehand had some natural sidespin. Tough shot. Not sure if those guys are consciously controlling it though.

Sublime · May 11, 2009

That ground level footage is really good. Have you guys considered packaging up a bunch of the material you have and your training material and selling DVDs or BluRays?

wihamilton · May 11, 2009

We've considered making a DVD / packaging up some of our existing content. There are several constraints regarding what we can do with the Indian Wells footage so we can't put that stuff on a DVD.

toptalent · May 11, 2009

Who needs DVD's these days when you can view them online at high res. I'd rather see some even higher quality clips available for download. (even the Youtube's so called HQ videos are highly compressed, many frames are lost)

wihamilton · May 12, 2009

toptalent said:
Who needs DVD's these days when you can view them online at high res. I'd rather see some even higher quality clips available for download. (even the Youtube's so called HQ videos are highly compressed, many frames are lost)

Youtube's HD is pretty good. You just have to be careful about clicking the HD button. If you hit it after the video has started playing it can reload and play back really choppy.

oldhacker · May 13, 2009

Hi again Will - I have been looking at the great footage of Djokovic in your link and I agree he pretty much hits the first way you describe on most of the forehands. However, there is one at 36 seconds which looks much more like the second (Federer etc.) method. He clearly starts pronating prior to contact and you see the racquet face close markedly more immediately after contact with greater extension through the ball. Also he has a much straighter hitting arm on that forehand. Having thought about it I do not think method 1 works well if you hit with a straighter arm because you do not have as greater radius for the wipe from the shoulder as you do hitting with a pronounced bend at the elbow. I therefore think that it is no coincidence that the method 2 hitters (Fd, NAdal and Verdasco) all hit with a straighter arm and use forearm rotation (pronation) prior to contact to raise the racquet head to the ball.

wihamilton said:
Hey oldhacker. Very good question -- one we plan on addressing in a video shortly. Not all WW forehands are the same. There are basically two ways to hit one.

The first way is to modify your swing path -- make it more vertical. This is the method we taught in the WW video. Jeff Counts of Hi-TechTennis.com describes the WW motion as lifting and turning over a lever. I think this is a pretty good anology. You lift the racket up, across the ball prior to and through contact. After you hit, your arm and the racket turn over, creating the WW follow through.

Here are two examples of pros who do this --

Roddick -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpocoSPRkMA

Djokovic -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jk1eqm_vazU

And keep in mind the majority of pros on tour hit using this technique.

db379 · May 17, 2009

This is a great thread, thanks guys for all the useful comments. Will, I really like your website and the videos and explanations are very clear. Great job!
I wanted to ask you a question regarding the WW forehand. It seems to me that one of the most important steps in this motion is to accelerate the racquet head into the ball as fast as possible to give pace and spin. And for this, I came to the conclusion that one needs a very loose arm to be able to accelerate the head fast enough. I can really rip the ball with lots of pace and spin only when I relax my arm enough to wip through the ball (I think my trajectory is closer to the 2nd method you suggested (Federer)). I am correct in saying that, and what's your view on the role of the relaxation of the arm and wrist during the motion? Thanks.

wihamilton · May 17, 2009

db379 said:
This is a great thread, thanks guys for all the useful comments. Will, I really like your website and the videos and explanations are very clear. Great job!
I wanted to ask you a question regarding the WW forehand. It seems to me that one of the most important steps in this motion is to accelerate the racquet head into the ball as fast as possible to give pace and spin. And for this, I came to the conclusion that one needs a very loose arm to be able to accelerate the head fast enough. I can really rip the ball with lots of pace and spin only when I relax my arm enough to wip through the ball (I think my trajectory is closer to the 2nd method you suggested (Federer)). I am correct in saying that, and what's your view on the role of the relaxation of the arm and wrist during the motion? Thanks.

Hey db thanks!

Racket-head speed is a very important part of a good forehand -- same is true for the backhand and serve. And you maximize racket-head speed by staying loose and relaxed. However, you should not be so loose and relaxed that your technique breaks down. You still need to control your body / the racket.

I want to stress that racket-head speed comes after developing sound technique. Trying to swing really fast w/inconsistent technique doesn't do you much good -- you'll rip a winner on one shot and golf the next ball.

I think Federer's win over Nadal today is instructive. Federer certainly went for his fair share of winners, but most of the time he was playing with controlled aggression. You don't need to swing for the fences, you just need to consistently pressure your opponent while still playing a high-percentage game.

iowaviking11 · May 19, 2009

You talked earlier about doing a video on federer forehand. When can we expect that up?
Thanks

wihamilton · May 19, 2009

In a week methinks

iowaviking11 · Jun 7, 2009

So when will the fed video be up?

corners · Jun 21, 2009

wihamilton said:
Hey oldhacker. Very good question -- one we plan on addressing in a video shortly. Not all WW forehands are the same. There are basically two ways to hit one.

The first way is to modify your swing path -- make it more vertical. This is the method we taught in the WW video. Jeff Counts of Hi-TechTennis.com describes the WW motion as lifting and turning over a lever. I think this is a pretty good anology. You lift the racket up, across the ball prior to and through contact. After you hit, your arm and the racket turn over, creating the WW follow through.

Here are two examples of pros who do this --

Roddick -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpocoSPRkMA

Djokovic -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jk1eqm_vazU

And keep in mind the majority of pros on tour hit using this technique.

Several pros -- Federer, Nadal, Verdasco, Tsonga, for example -- do something else to hit a WW forehand. Their WW motion is created by turning their hand / forearm over, which is what you allude to in #3. This starts right before contact and, of course, is most noticeable during the follow through.

Verdasco is a great guy to look at because he makes this motion very obvious. When you watch the following video, look at how much he drops the racket down, below his hand during his foreward swing. However, at contact the racket is often in-line with his hand because he has turned his hand and forearm over to bring the racket up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LetxCiRKSh8

IMO, this second method is the superior way to hit a WW forehand IF YOU'RE GOOD ENOUGH TO DO IT. It's definitely way more difficult that the first method. The reason we taught the first method is because it only requires a couple adjustments to hit, assuming you have a fundamentally sound forehand. The second method, however, is superior because it allows you to disconnect the direction your arm is swinging from the WW motion. In other words, your arm isn't responsible for creating the WW motion, your hand and forearm is. Take Federer -- he can hit extremely hard -- swing straight through the ball -- but still be very consistent because he uses his hand / arm to generate topspin. Nadal, on the other hand, has a much more vertical swing path AND turns his hand / forearm over to produce the WW motion. That's why he hits w/more topspin than anyone else on tour.

If I were going to recommend a progression for learning the WW, I would definitely suggestion the easier method #1 to start. Keep in mind that you can have a world-class, top-10 forehand with this technique.

This is a really nice thread. Thanks to everyone involved.

I wanted to insert Laver into the discussion. There's an old thread where the poster tricky breaks down the Federer forehand backswing. In the second post he compares Fed's stroke to Laver's, saying that Laver's forehand may be the true ancestor to Federer's.

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=137117

Unfortunately, I'm not able to find a publicly available slow-mo of a suitable Laver forehand, but check out the Laver clip "FH Short court-level front" at tennisplayer if you're able.

In that clip Laver comes forward to hit a sharply angled cross-court forehand hit hear the ad sideline (lefty). You can clearly see the similarity that tricky was pointing out in that thread. During Laver's backswing, despite his continental grip, the racquet face is closed throughout. After which the butt takes an inside-out path to the ball, his arm straight - just like Fed and Nadal. Then the racquet face whips up, over and around the ball as his hand and forehand turn-over (pronate). It appears to be just the kind of "Type 2 wiper" Will describes above.

An interesting experiment is to try to hit a wiper forehand with a continental grip. My experience is that this results in a natural "Type 2 Wiper" stroke and a very quick acceleration and rotation through contact - without really trying.

If you then make your grip a little stronger after every few shots, moving bit by bit toward eastern, you can maintain this quick wiper.

Strangely, for me, as I go past Eastern toward semi-western I lose the ability to do this "Type 2 Wiper" and the stroke becomes less rotational and dynamic through contact. This could be because I hit Eastern normally, but I can't feel at all how Nadal hits this same wiper motion with his almost-Western grip.

I'd be interested to hear others' experiences with this experiment.

joppy · Aug 27, 2009

I tried something like the second type of ww and got lots of pace and some spin. How would you control the spin on the second type of ww? Does It come from the speed of pronation?

wihamilton · Aug 28, 2009

joppy said:
I tried something like the second type of ww and got lots of pace and some spin. How would you control the spin on the second type of ww? Does It come from the speed of pronation?

Basically. The faster you pronate, the more spin you'll get.

NamRanger · Aug 28, 2009

wihamilton said:
Yes -- within a week or two. However, while the video will explain what Federer does when he hits a forehand we won't "teach" it, per se. I strongly recommend you learn the Roddick / Djokovic version of the WW. It is way, way, way, way easier to learn. You can have a world-class forehand w/that technique. Hitting w/a straight arm and pronating prior to and through contact is not a requirement for a great forehand. And you're probably doing yourself a disservice if you work on that stuff at the expense of improving your footwork, perfecting your strategy, etc.

There are some pros and cons that I've studied to that type of forehand (Federer, Nadal, Verdasco, etc.). For one, it's incredibly good if you move well enough to use it. Two, it can produce a tremendous amount of pace and spin combination.

However, there are some cons :

1. It requires precise timing and consistency with your footwork. If you are off by a small amount, you're gonna shank.

2. Because of 1, an opponent that goes hard crosscourt into the forehand can expose you due to your contact point being so far out in front. Both Federer and Nadal have had days where their opponent actually has more success going to their strengths than their "weaknesses" (relatively speaking).

3. It's way harder to hit a faster ball with this technique, as there's just so many things that can go wrong. I find the double bend forehand (which is less intricate by nature) can deal with high pace balls much easier.

wihamilton · Aug 28, 2009

NamRanger said:
There are some pros and cons that I've studied to that type of forehand (Federer, Nadal, Verdasco, etc.). For one, it's incredibly good if you move well enough to use it. Two, it can produce a tremendous amount of pace and spin combination.

However, there are some cons :

1. It requires precise timing and consistency with your footwork. If you are off by a small amount, you're gonna shank.

2. Because of 1, an opponent that goes hard crosscourt into the forehand can expose you due to your contact point being so far out in front. Both Federer and Nadal have had days where their opponent actually has more success going to their strengths than their "weaknesses" (relatively speaking).

3. It's way harder to hit a faster ball with this technique, as there's just so many things that can go wrong. I find the double bend forehand (which is less intricate by nature) can deal with high pace balls much easier.

I agree -- nice post. You need to be a very good player to bother trying this technique.

If I were teaching someone, I'd have "WW forehand #1" as the default -- the thing they learn first. You don't really have to learn the 2nd type -- Roddick / Djokovic don't use it frequently, etc. However, it can be a nice addition, because you can hit very aggressively / consistently with it if you have good shot selection.

Bungalo Bill · Aug 28, 2009

wihamilton said:
Hey oldhacker. Very good question -- one we plan on addressing in a video shortly. Not all WW forehands are the same. There are basically two ways to hit one.

The first way is to modify your swing path -- make it more vertical. This is the method we taught in the WW video. Jeff Counts of Hi-TechTennis.com describes the WW motion as lifting and turning over a lever. I think this is a pretty good anology. You lift the racket up, across the ball prior to and through contact. After you hit, your arm and the racket turn over, creating the WW follow through.

Here are two examples of pros who do this --

Roddick -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpocoSPRkMA

Djokovic -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jk1eqm_vazU

Nice help on this Will.

I use other analogies to help players understand:

1. Waving motion: If you put your hand up like you are holding up a stop sign or making the Right Turn Hand Signal, move the entire lower portion of the arm (elbow and to hand) as one unit. Rotation should be felt in the shoulder area. This is actually much safer from an injury perspective and a player doesn't need to torque it. He just needs to let it play out.

2. Turning a door knob motion: The Nadal way involves the lower arm more and pressure is felt at the elbow area. This is similar to turning a knob on a door. This requires excellent timing and places tremendous pressue on the elbow area. Many players have gone down to injury and some have had to go have surgery. Some of these players (after surgery) would advise one to not learn this technique. I am of the camp that it depends on the strength and playing ability of the player.

NamRanger · Aug 29, 2009

wihamilton said:
I agree -- nice post. You need to be a very good player to bother trying this technique.

If I were teaching someone, I'd have "WW forehand #1" as the default -- the thing they learn first. You don't really have to learn the 2nd type -- Roddick / Djokovic don't use it frequently, etc. However, it can be a nice addition, because you can hit very aggressively / consistently with it if you have good shot selection.

I find that I tend to extend my arm a little more on sitter balls actually, and I produce quite abit more pop on them. I haven't tried it consciously, but maybe I'll try forehand #2 on the balls that I know I can hit hard. Could work out.

aptennis91 · Aug 29, 2009

I use the 2nd method only because I watched hours and hours of Federer forehand and imitated it...
Eastern fh is also natural to me, so that might have forced me to adopt a more 2nd type forehand..
Elbow does slightly hurt sometimes after leading up my racquet, but hopefully it's not anything that will keep occuring.
The first method is very unnatural for me and I exclusively use the 2nd method.
Is this bad?

ShooterMcMarco · Aug 29, 2009

wihamilton said:
Roddick -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpocoSPRkMA

Djokovic -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jk1eqm_vazU

It's interesting to compare their forehands with Federer. You can easily see how much more extension Roger has on his forehand than they do.

corners · Aug 30, 2009

aptennis91 said:
I use the 2nd method only because I watched hours and hours of Federer forehand and imitated it...
Eastern fh is also natural to me, so that might have forced me to adopt a more 2nd type forehand..
Elbow does slightly hurt sometimes after leading up my racquet, but hopefully it's not anything that will keep occuring.
The first method is very unnatural for me and I exclusively use the 2nd method.
Is this bad?

I'd say it's exceptional! A lot of experts are saying that the Federer forehand shouldn't be imitated as it must require exquisite, one-in-a-million timing to perform consistently. But if you are consistent and accurate - I say: "Congrats!"

wihamilton · Sep 2, 2009

Bungalo Bill said:
Nice help on this Will.

I use other analogies to help players understand:

1. Waving motion: If you put your hand up like you are holding up a stop sign or making the Right Turn Hand Signal, move the entire lower portion of the arm (elbow and to hand) as one unit. Rotation should be felt in the shoulder area. This is actually much safer from an injury perspective and a player doesn't need to torque it. He just needs to let it play out.

2. Turning a door knob motion: The Nadal way involves the lower arm more and pressure is felt at the elbow area. This is similar to turning a knob on a door. This requires excellent timing and places tremendous pressue on the elbow area. Many players have gone down to injury and some have had to go have surgery. Some of these players (after surgery) would advise one to not learn this technique. I am of the camp that it depends on the strength and playing ability of the player.

Thx BB. I like both those analogies -- I've been using the door knob one for awhile.

I agree that technique #2 is not something most people should try. It's not requisite to playing at a high level and it's one of those things that can shift a player's focus from more pressing technical issues.

wihamilton · Sep 2, 2009

ShooterMcMarco said:
It's interesting to compare their forehands with Federer. You can easily see how much more extension Roger has on his forehand than they do.

Yep -- that's because Federer isn't relying on the direction his arm is moving to produce the WW motion. Roddick / Djokovic are lifting w/their arms to produce the WW. Federer is pronating -- "turning a door knob" -- to create the WW. Thus, he can pretty much swing straight through the ball.

tlm · Sep 2, 2009

The ground level view of rafas forehands are awesome!!!!!!!!!!

GuyClinch · Sep 2, 2009

...I have wondered alot about this as well. My coach is currently teaching me to finish with my hand to my ear - and my elbow up. This is a traditional finish.

But with a shot like that I don't really turn my shoulder much right? Its the turning of the shoulder that forces the lower finish? Is that correct?

I don't hit really great blasting forehand like he can (he is a former college player)..so I don't think I need the WW yet. But I am still curious. He is always trying to get me to hit more topspin by swinging low to high more..

How come the turning the shoulder method works so much better then that old school way..?

Pete

Bungalo Bill · Sep 2, 2009

GuyClinch said:
...I have wondered alot about this as well. My coach is currently teaching me to finish with my hand to my ear - and my elbow up. This is a traditional finish.

But with a shot like that I don't really turn my shoulder much right? Its the turning of the shoulder that forces the lower finish? Is that correct?

I don't hit really great blasting forehand like he can (he is a former college player)..so I don't think I need the WW yet. But I am still curious. He is always trying to get me to hit more topspin by swinging low to high more..

How come the turning the shoulder method works so much better then that old school way..?

Pete

Old school, new school, modern, classic, conventional, what does this all mean???

The current swing paths to hit a tennis ball have been around for years and years whether you use the WW pattern or the more classic Nike Swoosh pattern. Each swing path was important in their era. Most instruction was centered around the classic style in the US because that was most beneficial for the net rushers and doubles when this style of play was popular and successful.

I use several swing paths and neither of them do I say one is better over another. I use several because I have an all-court game and use them for specific purposes.

The rotation of the shoulders can help in the finish but it is mainly what the arm does in the swing that determines the finish.

Question on WW swing path for Will/FYB/ Other experts

Semi-Pro

Hall of Fame

Semi-Pro

Hall of Fame

Semi-Pro

Rookie

Hall of Fame

Rookie

Rookie

chico9166

Guest

Semi-Pro

Rookie

Hall of Fame

Rookie

Hall of Fame

Professional

Hall of Fame

Hall of Fame

chico9166

Guest

New User

Hall of Fame

Semi-Pro

Hall of Fame

Semi-Pro

Hall of Fame

Semi-Pro

Hall of Fame

Rookie

Hall of Fame

Semi-Pro

Hall of Fame

Hall of Fame

Rookie

Hall of Fame

Rookie

Legend

New User

Hall of Fame

G.O.A.T.

Hall of Fame

G.O.A.T.

G.O.A.T.

Rookie

Hall of Fame

Legend

Hall of Fame

Hall of Fame

G.O.A.T.

Legend

G.O.A.T.

Similar threads