Rule question

ser_renely · Jul 14, 2009

Playing doubles, recreation level.

The server's first serve is a few feet out to the side. My teammate receiving strikes the ball back. I start getting ready for the second serve, I figured the ball was so far out, no need for a call. I get confused, because it looked like my teammate was not sure if it was in or out(no idea how). The opponent starts running to make contact at the ball. As his ball starts to land, I saw something like, "whoaaa, sorry that was way, way out, I didn't call it because I though it was obvious". The servers partner clearly saw it way out as well.

Second serve was a double fault.

At that point the other team starts complaining. what is the correct course of action for this situation? Should it have been two first serves?

This group I play with FREAK out if you ever strike a ball back and call out at the same time. Which is another question I have, can I strike the ball and call it out? I always try to play the correct call, but I can't watch a ball to see if it will land in then start swinging. If it is a first serve and is close to the line I have to be swinging. thoughts on this?

jefferson · Jul 14, 2009

I would have offered a first serve just because of the confusion and the interuption of play. But you do not have to.

As for your other question, by all means you can strike a ball as you call it out. No debating that. You should try and hit the ball into net or back to your opponent. Not make them track down a ball that you hit 2 courts down, tho!

ser_renely · Jul 14, 2009

What is the general consensus when you hit the ball, playing the point, but realize it was out, and call it out a bit after?

I always try to play to the correct call no matter what, and I know some opponents get so mad when you hit a ball and it takes a couple seconds to "evaluate" the call in your head. I have noticed this more for me the faster the ball goes. I can understand if the player thought it was malicious, because that is how some players take points away. I want my opponent to call my balls out, I don't care how long it takes them, nor does it bother me.

LetFirstServe · Jul 14, 2009

ser_renely said:
This group I play with FREAK out if you ever strike a ball back and call out at the same time. Which is another question I have, can I strike the ball and call it out? I always try to play the correct call, but I can't watch a ball to see if it will land in then start swinging. If it is a first serve and is close to the line I have to be swinging. thoughts on this?

I often am calling and swinging at the same time. From the time it takes from the bounce on the court to your raquet is a small fraction of a second. You cant get ready for a return after the ball lands in your court. Your preparation to return starts way before that.

blakesq · Jul 14, 2009

I hate players who think out balls are "obvious" and they do not have to make an "out" call. CAll every out ball, OUT, or indicate with your index finger pointing up. If you don't call it out, then it is in. That is the proper way to play.

You say: "This group I play with FREAK out if you ever strike a ball back and call out at the same time. " I don't understand this. Your group gets mad if you recieve a hard serve, and have to call out at the same time you are trying to make a return? If they have a problem with that, then tell them to serve slower, and you will not have to return and call out at the same time.

ser_renely said:
Playing doubles, recreation level.

The server's first serve is a few feet out to the side. My teammate receiving strikes the ball back. I start getting ready for the second serve, I figured the ball was so far out, no need for a call. I get confused, because it looked like my teammate was not sure if it was in or out(no idea how). The opponent starts running to make contact at the ball. As his ball starts to land, I saw something like, "whoaaa, sorry that was way, way out, I didn't call it because I though it was obvious". The servers partner clearly saw it way out as well.

Second serve was a double fault.

At that point the other team starts complaining. what is the correct course of action for this situation? Should it have been two first serves?

This group I play with FREAK out if you ever strike a ball back and call out at the same time. Which is another question I have, can I strike the ball and call it out? I always try to play the correct call, but I can't watch a ball to see if it will land in then start swinging. If it is a first serve and is close to the line I have to be swinging. thoughts on this?

ser_renely · Jul 14, 2009

Its insane how some of them get, is all I can say. Pretty funny I will have to use what you said on them, lol.

I call 90% of the calls. In a social match, I figured it was a no brainier. The ball was so far out, and it was such a slow serve, I have no idea what was going on. I guess it was a freakish things. They are very poor players.

conditionZero · Jul 15, 2009

You're not supposed to assume your opponents saw a ball out, but sometimes it's hard not to. I feel a little silly calling it when it's way out but a quick hand gesture should avoid confusion.

As far as your second scenario -
if your out call is timely then no one should care if you swing at it. "Timely" being the operative word. It looks pretty bad when you hit the ball, the ball hits the net, and then you call "out".
I feel like making the call emphatically helps avoid suspicion in questionable situations.

Nellie · Jul 15, 2009

I know the rules say that the first serve is in until called out, but I find it kind of rude to call a serve out that lands 10+feet out. However, I do tend to call everything because it makes the close calls more automatic.

blakesq · Jul 15, 2009

It might be rude to scream "OUT" at the top of your lungs when the first serve hits the back fence without bouncing. So, just indicate out with your finger. Not rude at all. And proper tennis, you must call/indicate all out balls as "out".

Nellie said:
I know the rules say that the first serve is in until called out, but I find it kind of rude to call a serve out that lands 10+feet out. However, I do tend to call everything because it makes the close calls more automatic.

kylebarendrick · Jul 15, 2009

The problem with assuming that a ball is so far out that you don't need to call it, is that everyone has a different definition of "way out". Call every out ball "out" and it eliminates confusion. If your opponents don't make a call, even if you think it was way out, then play it as in.

I agree with the others that raising a finger is a tactful way to call a ball that lands 10 feet out.

jefferson · Jul 15, 2009

I only use the "finger" to call a ball out when I am not going to strike the ball. If I put a racket on the ball I use a verbal call.
I get annoyed when people hit the ball back and use the "finger" that I dont see because I am tracking the ball.

ser_renely · Jul 15, 2009

I have to use hand signals a lot when I play my friend, because we are a couple hundred feet from a huge helo pad...can't hear anything for 10+ minutes at a time.

Steady Eddy · Jul 15, 2009

Don't hit out serves over the net. Hit them into the net, so that they're out of the way and the server can start her 2nd serve without interruption. Returning a serve while making no call, will only cause problems like this, even if you feel the serve was so far out that it didn't need a call.

Given what happend, I would have given them a let if they would have asked. They probably should have asked for the let BEFORE the double fault, but...just to get along, I'd give it to them anyway.

LuckyR · Jul 15, 2009

Overall the "correct" procedure will not be found in a rule book. Among my circle, we would not ask for another first serve, either before or after the DF. Asking for one after the DF is pretty low IMO. Asking for one before is OK and I would give them one if they asked.

jc4.0 · Jul 17, 2009

ser_renely said:
What is the general consensus when you hit the ball, playing the point, but realize it was out, and call it out a bit after?

I always try to play to the correct call no matter what, and I know some opponents get so mad when you hit a ball and it takes a couple seconds to "evaluate" the call in your head. I have noticed this more for me the faster the ball goes. I can understand if the player thought it was malicious, because that is how some players take points away. I want my opponent to call my balls out, I don't care how long it takes them, nor does it bother me.

First, you have to wait til the ball hits the court to call "out". If you call "out" the point ends. You can't call "out" and then continue the point because the other players think the point is over and stop playing. That's just too much of an advantage for you, don't you think? If you reverse your "out" call, after you have made a legal shot, then you should replay the point. If you called "out" and then missed your shot, no replay - the point goes to your opponent.

Cindysphinx · Jul 21, 2009

If a ball lands out and for whatever reason I delay in making the call, I just play the point. To me, "delay" is subjective but if my ball bounces on the other side or is struck by an opponent, then that is way too late to call it out.

As far as the ball being way out, I usually make the call with a subtle point of the finger. It's a habit at this point. Sometimes other players are focused on things they should be focusing on or are occupied with other things and won't notice a ball that is way out.

I do remember a time when my partner and I were absolutely killing our opponents. As in, *killing.* I mean, we only gave up one game the whole match, in the second set. These poor ladies were spraying the ball everywhere.

About halfway through the first set, one of them hit a ball way, way out. I don't know if either of us called it out, maybe one of us gave the subtle finger. Who knows? Anyway, opponent stopped play, walked to net and chided us, telling us we needed to make clear out calls. We kind of looked at each other -- geez, did she see how far out that ball was? -- and said we would comply, of course.

For the rest of the match, we were like umpires calling strikes. No matter how insanely far out the ball was, we called that ball out with gusto. This seemed to resolve the problem for them, I guess. I would have been embarrassed to ask for out calls if my shots were hitting the back fence, but to each his own . . . .

Steady Eddy · Jul 21, 2009

Cindysphinx said:
About halfway through the first set, one of them hit a ball way, way out. I don't know if either of us called it out, maybe one of us gave the subtle finger. Who knows? Anyway, opponent stopped play, walked to net and chided us, telling us we needed to make clear out calls. We kind of looked at each other -- geez, did she see how far out that ball was? -- and said we would comply, of course.

For the rest of the match, we were like umpires calling strikes. No matter how insanely far out the ball was, we called that ball out with gusto. This seemed to resolve the problem for them, I guess. I would have been embarrassed to ask for out calls if my shots were hitting the back fence, but to each his own . . . .

People need to save face. When a match becomes a route, look for something to happen. I remember one guy who went on about not being used to playing outdoors. So you did the right thing. Indulge them with their demand that ALL balls that are out be called as such. It didn't change anything, but it made them feel better, temporarily. People think things can get tense in a tight match. But often a route brings about the most tension.

Cindysphinx · Jul 22, 2009

Possibly, SteadyEddy. Possibly.

My own theory is that our opponents played tennis through echolocation. Like fruit bats, they could not see in normal light conditions and depended on our "out" calls to navigate the court.

Hey, it's the least we could do to help out a fellow mammal!

precision2b · Jul 22, 2009

conditionZero said:
You're not supposed to assume your opponents saw a ball out, but sometimes it's hard not to. I feel a little silly calling it when it's way out but a quick hand gesture should avoid confusion.

As far as your second scenario -
if your out call is timely then no one should care if you swing at it. "Timely" being the operative word. It looks pretty bad when you hit the ball, the ball hits the net, and then you call "out".
I feel like making the call emphatically helps avoid suspicion in questionable situations.

I agree, if I hesitate on the call I play the point.

brad1730 · Jul 24, 2009

For the most part, I rely on my double partner to make the calls. I'm receiving, and if it's close enough to the line, I'll hit and let him make the call. It is a little cheesy to wait on a close call. I think you earn Karma points (and maybe a few less hooked points) if you give them 2 serves.

Redflea · Jul 28, 2009

jefferson said:
You should try and hit the ball into net or back to your opponent. Not make them track down a ball that you hit 2 courts down, tho!

I think the OPs question has been covered, but above is one of my pet peeves...we played a team recently where they hit just about everything back at us using a random-angle generator, regardless of how far out the ball was. We spent all kinds of time trying to keep the ball from going into another court, or from rolling around at our feet between serves/points.

After a few games we spoke to them politely about it during a change over and thankfully they started letting most of the out balls go or hitting them into the net. Soooo much better...

jc4.0 · Jul 29, 2009

This is a little sticky. You said your partner was confused as to whether the serve was out, and actually played the ball. If you play it, then the point is on. This is why you should immediately call "out" even if it seems ridiculously obvious.

In a friendly match, I'd advise to give the server two serves because of the confusion.

Steady Eddy · Jul 29, 2009

jc4.0 said:
In a friendly match, I'd advise to give the server two serves because of the confusion.

"Friendly match"? What kind of attitude is that? There is only one goal in tennis, that is to DEFEAT the opponent. Towards that end there's no room for chit chat. Any attempt to make small talk by my opponent is met by my icy stare. If I can peg him on the fly with my serve, that's MY point! And don't tell me otherwise, 'cause I know the rules.

I don't lose matches, just friends.

woodrow1029 · Jul 29, 2009

jc4.0 said:
First, you have to wait til the ball hits the court to call "out". If you call "out" the point ends. You can't call "out" and then continue the point because the other players think the point is over and stop playing. That's just too much of an advantage for you, don't you think? If you reverse your "out" call, after you have made a legal shot, then you should replay the point. If you called "out" and then missed your shot, no replay - the point goes to your opponent.

Do you ever attempt to answer the actual question asked? LOL

jc4.0 · Jul 30, 2009

woodrow1029 said:
Do you ever attempt to answer the actual question asked? LOL

I always answer questions honestly, as I did in this case if you look at my earlier post. You and others might not agree with me - but this is a message board, after all. You're free to disagree and I don't think it will cost either one of us anything. LOL

jc4.0 · Jul 30, 2009

Steady Eddy said:
"Friendly match"? What kind of attitude is that? There is only one goal in tennis, that is to DEFEAT the opponent. Towards that end there's no room for chit chat. Any attempt to make small talk by my opponent is met by my icy stare. If I can peg him on the fly with my serve, that's MY point! And don't tell me otherwise, 'cause I know the rules.

I don't lose matches, just friends.

Yeah, I've lost a friend or two with this attitude. Luckily I still have a few who will play tennis with me. Good luck...

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