Chair umpire says to Andy Roddick in UsOpen "Shadow is bigger than the mark... hawkeye makes it look bigger"...
And I was thinking that a part of the ball could be over the line but not actually touching it. Will hawkeye show it as in?
... hawkeye looks at where the balls makes first contact... the ball skids on the court before bouncing.... linesmen always have looked at the bounce not the few hairs on the ball that touch the line. However this doesn't mean Hawkeye makes mistakes... I can live with this system it is a lot better than some of the dubious line calls we have seen in the past. My only criticism is that it should always work, and not fail during a match...
The only way that kind of comment makes sense is if the mark (the little visible imprint the ball leaves on the court when it bounces) only represents part of the ball the touches the ground - the inner circle, so to speak. Whereas the shadow is the whole half of the ball that does touch the ground as the ball flattens on impact. In other words, when the ball bounces it squashes flat against the ground, and hawkeye reads the bounce as a complete hemisphere touching the ground - and hence catching the line (or not) - whereas when you look at the visible imprint it's smaller than that.
You get the same idea if you soak a tennis ball and then you bounce it. The wet mark you can see on the ground is smaller than the half-section of the ball.
The question then becomes, how much does a ball actually squash flat, and therefore really touches the ground. I can believe that if a ball hits the netcord hard and just trickles over the net, the real bounce / squash mark will be quite small - and yet when you see the shadow on hawkeye it still looks like the full hemisphere. Whereas the squash mark produced by a full blown smash will indeed be close to the shadow of a "half ball" as the ball will truly flatten.
I'm not sure actually how to the rules define exactly when the ball is out or in, (Meaning, if the mark of impact - the area that the ball touches the ground) marks the spot, or lets say that the "in-area" of the court would be higher, then if the ball touches the court with a piece of fur, it's still in?)
Of course hawkeye is wrong. The most obvious example is the failure to calibrate hawkeye to the barometric pressure's effect on the ball; not to mention the more dramatic change in ball pressure (compression when it strikes) when new balls are put in; nor does it compensate for balls sometimes fluffing up and changing diameter.
When hawkeye starts adapting to atmospheric conditions, new balls, humidity fluffing of felt, when it works all the time and doesn't fail in the middle of a match like it did this week, and when they show the margin of error as part of the shadow............then hawkeye may be mildly accurate.
Like humans have a shot at doing this???
Do you have any idea as to how much reduction in error would be achieved if the Hawkeye system actually did what you are suggesting?
Maybe an extra 2mm.
Care to elaborate?
I would just use some sensor chips inside each ball to detect impact and report its coordinates wirelessly to a base station.
I would just use some sensor chips inside each ball to detect impact and report its coordinates wirelessly to a base station.
2 millimeter difference in accuracy by taking into account atmospheric conditions?
Hawkeye is the best option available. Until something better comes along, no point in nitpicking that it is less than 100% accurate.
Correct...how is a 2mm reduction in error possible by taking into account atmospheric conditions?
I don't know if it is or not. The system is already accurate with a small enough margin of error as it is. So really there is no point to bother with atmospheric conditions.
Yeah. We gotta use the best technology we have until something better comes along.
I mean, can you imagine if you hurt yourself and your doctor said, "Well, MRI and X ray aren't 100% accurate and can't see everything, so we're not going to bother with them. Now bite on this stick while I poke around with my fingers to take an educated guess."
Surely if a ball has loads of topspin on it, it will touch a tiny amount of court. If it has slice on it, then it might "squash" and look how hawkeye shows almost every shot. The ball marks shown by hawkeye are far too large, and there have been occasions when repleys have shown this. A point in the Williams-Dementiava Wimbledon semi final comes to mind.
... I don't think the ball mark has got anything to do with the half-section of the ball, and neither has Hawkeye... when you ... hit a hard, flat serve, the ball mark will be elongated. This means that if any part of this elongated mark hits the line, the ball is in. On clay this can be seen best:
... when you hit a really soft shot, the ball mark will be really small and round (not nearly as big as the half-section of the ball, even though it may still have the same shape as the 'half ball'). It's the same when a ball is just lying on the ground, the ball is touching the ground, but in a very small spot. To put this in perspective, Hawkeye would show this very small contact spot as the 'shadow', rather than the shadow of the half ball.
The image on the Hawkeye screen is only for a visual that the ball is actually in or out. It is not a true representation of the compression of the ball on the court. Sometimes when it is only 3 mm out, the space will look much larger that. Sometimes when the ball is 2 inches out, the space will look much smaller. The point they are getting across is that it is in or out.I agree entirely with your points, namely, a hard-hit ball should show a much larger, elongated mark than a soft dropshot (the shadow for the soft drop would only be fractionally larger than that of a ball lying at rest on the place the dropshot landed). My point is that you don't see that when they show the hawkeye pictures (particularly, I have never seen a hawkeye shadow looking like the huge clay smugde you included in your post) - whether they show you a hard serve or a soft dropper, the area of the shadow looks very similar on both (a bit more elongated for the serve, quite round for the drop, but that's all). But, as you yourself put it (which I agree with), the shadow of a soft ball ought to be a lot smaller also.
That's not a good ideia..
Look at then number of balls spend during the USOPEN on the HawkEye courts and try to imagine the cousts of that.
And then think about the change in the balls specs.
Chair umpire says to Andy Roddick in UsOpen "Shadow is bigger than the mark... hawkeye makes it look bigger"...
And I was thinking that a part of the ball could be over the line but not actually touching it. Will hawkeye show it as in?
^ Says who, exactly? The makers of HawkEye? By the ATP or WTA?I don't know if it is or not. The system is already accurate with a small enough margin of error as it is.
^ If this is true, then it is deliberately deceiving people. Otherwise, instead of the nice little cartoon, they would show only the word 'in' or 'out'.The image on the Hawkeye screen is only for a visual that the ball is actually in or out. It is not a true representation of the compression of the ball on the court. Sometimes when it is only 3 mm out, the space will look much larger that. Sometimes when the ball is 2 inches out, the space will look much smaller. The point they are getting across is that it is in or out.
^ It's part of the 'entertainment package' that HawkEye/ShotSpot brings. The challenges create a 'drama' (artificially, of course), and even affect the game.crash1929 said:i was wondering why the players have to challenge though...cant the umpire just watch all the shots on hawkeye and then over rule as needed. is the tech that slow?
^ Says who, exactly? The makers of HawkEye? By the ATP or WTA?
Kind of like Ford saying that their cars are better than the competition - it's marketing spin.
I'll start considering the results of tests when, and only when, they are done by an objective third party....blah blah blah........
Actually not that that expensive at all. Casinos are trying this out with each playing card on the table to track play,betting and payouts and to make sure they match up...think about the amount cards a major joint on the strip goes through.
And Hawkeye isn't all that reliable. So someone will come along here with something that actually tells us where the ball really lands as opposed to just a good guess.
The image on the Hawkeye screen is only for a visual that the ball is actually in or out. It is not a true representation of the compression of the ball on the court. Sometimes when it is only 3 mm out, the space will look much larger that. Sometimes when the ball is 2 inches out, the space will look much smaller. The point they are getting across is that it is in or out.