The best backhand ever?
- Thread starter theagassiman
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Changmaster
Rookie
LOL what's the big deal? I've seen Federer do that quite often. It's probably just a habit, like how a few people bounce the ball between their legs before they serve.
borg is too high on that list. his backhand was very good on clay when he had time. however, he could easily be rushed when you hit it deep to his backhand and would very often leave the ball short. his forehand was much stronger, in my opinion.
also, for the person who said agassi had trouble with federer's backhand slice after 2002, keep in mind that agassi was 32+ years old while federer was entering his prime during that timeframe.
also, for the person who said agassi had trouble with federer's backhand slice after 2002, keep in mind that agassi was 32+ years old while federer was entering his prime during that timeframe.
hoodjem
G.O.A.T.
Federer's backhand came up on page five. He was shouted down.
Changmaster
Rookie
Umm, unless I missed something, nowhere in this thread was he really shouted down. I don't think anyone has said that they definitely don't think his bh deserves to be listed, and the reasons why. But I have seen some posters saying they think it should be on the list, and I might agree.
I think a strong case could be made for Fed's backhand being in the top 20. Becker is at #12. Was Becker's backhand really one of the best backhands ever? If his backhand is that high, and Fed is nowhere near the list, then that means his backhand must be MUCH better than Fed's. I find that hard to believe. I know I would take Fed's backhand in a heartbeat (better slice, better passing shots, more variety, and more dangerous).
Here's a quote from Becker himself on Fed's bh: "The low knee bend, the follow through on the backhand...now, any child watching this, this is the way you're supposed to hit a single handed backhand" - Boris Becker
In Brad Gilbert's "Winning Ugly" he made it clear that, other than his serve, Becker's big weapon was his fh. His strategy against Becker was to hit to his fh, and try to break it down. If he did that, then the rest of Boris's game would suffer. He would often like to make Becker run to his fh side, and then approach to Becker's bh side, and he would often end up winning the pt.
At no point did Gilbert mention the strength of Becker's bh. I would find it a bit odd, that, if Becker's bh was SO strong (#12 on an ALL-TIME list!) Gilbert made no mention of it, except that he liked to approach to that side.
Can you give strong evidence that Becker's bh was one of the greatest of all-time?
pc1
G.O.A.T.
Considering the racket technology and most of the stats I've seen, Federer's backhand doesn't seen to hit many winners in a match even in comparison to some of the top backhands of recent years, like Nalbanian, Djokovic, Kuerten and some other Gasquet and some others. He still shanks it and make errors off it compared others recent times also. These are players just off the top of my head. Tennis has been around a LONG TIME and we must not think that every stroke of a great player like Federer has to be in the top twenty ever. It's a fine backhand and it fits in with his great game but just because he's a great player doesn't mean his backhand is one of the all time great backhands. If I can name a few off the top of my head that is better than Federer in recent years, how can Federer's backhand be better over the long period of tennis history. Oh yeah, I like Nadal's backhand better also and Agassi's just a few years ago. Murray's too. This is just in the last 5 to 10 years.
Concerning Becker's backhand compared to Federer's. I'm not sure which one is better. Becker's backhand could hit more offensive return winners from what I've seen but I'm not sure if Becker's backhand was as consistent as Federer's.
I do think Becker's backhand is too high and it just doesn't compare to a backhand like for example Arthur Ashe in my opinion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpdPX9avs1M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfReRBpn7nM
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Changmaster
Rookie
Right, my main pt wasn't that I thought Fed's bh should be top 20 best all-time, but that I think Becker's bh being #12 ALL-TIME is questionable, to say the least. I think many people would rather have Fed's bh, but you yourself said you weren't sure which was better. So let's say that their bhs are equal. So how is it that Becker is #12, while Fed is not even on the list?
Changmaster
Rookie
Using Nadal to say Fed has a weak bh is a poor example, because Nadal is a very unique type of player. No one can continually pound heavy shots to Fed's backhand like Nadal can. Chances are, guys like Becker or Sampras would have fared even WORSE against Nadal on clay.
When Fed chooses to, he can put ABSURD pace on his bh. His mixture of variety on his bh is perhaps unmatched, and obviously it's been working well for him!
And you saying Becker's bh was more offensive, etc.. is not a reason why Becker's bh deserves to be #12 on an ALL-TIME list, while Fed is not even on the list.
In my opinion Federer`s backhand should be at least in the top 20 just the variations that he has on this shot its awesome, yes he does shank it sometimes but that does not mean that Haas,Rios,Mancini and the other players on that list that who have not win even a slam have a better backhand than Federer`s.
hoodjem
G.O.A.T.
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hoodjem
G.O.A.T.
I beg to differ. This thread is not about how many slams Fed has won. It is entirely possible, from a logical point of view, that someone could have a better backhand than Fed and have won no slams. One could argue easily that Fed has won 16 slams because his forehand and serve are so good, not because of his backhand.
Nevertheless, I thought Fed's BH looked much better in the 2010 AO: not a liability that others could attack, no shanks, more variety, more consistent, more power even. More of a weapon.
I think he's been working on it, and definitely improved it. I agree with Becker: I always thought it had excellent form, and I never understood why he shanked that many.
4th Edition:
1. Laver
2. Rosewall
3. Connors
4. Budge
5. Borg
6. Edberg
7. Agassi
8. Kuerten
9. Lendl
10. Vilas
11. Lacoste
12. Ashe
13. Nalbandian
14. Kovacs
15. Rios
16. Mancini
17. Safin
18. Mecir
19. Tilden
20. Kodes
21. Wilander
22. Kafelnikov
23. Orantes
24. Korda
25. Wawrinka
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My point is that the backhand is foundamental shot in tennis and you can not win 16 slams without having a pretty good backhand, also in my opinion having a good backhand does not mean just only hitting winners, Federer uses it pretty well to set points up also he is very good in defense on the backhand side.
wgmh128
New User
Best backhand ever
Federer doesn't have that kind of backhand he has more of a finesse/angle backhand like Rod Laver, but he can also rip it down the line like Hass or Gasquet. If you you think big pace on the backhand makes you the best then were his Blake, no one hits with more pace than him with a one-hander. Federer does things on his backhand I've never seen any other human do, he deserves at least a top 20 spot.
Fed's backhand
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhaxKLMDW7s&feature=related
Federer doesn't have that kind of backhand he has more of a finesse/angle backhand like Rod Laver, but he can also rip it down the line like Hass or Gasquet. If you you think big pace on the backhand makes you the best then were his Blake, no one hits with more pace than him with a one-hander. Federer does things on his backhand I've never seen any other human do, he deserves at least a top 20 spot.
Fed's backhand
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhaxKLMDW7s&feature=related
pc1
G.O.A.T.
Hoodjem,
I know you'll doing this as a consensus of opinion but I can't see Federer's name on this list.
Just for kicks I will name other backhands in my opinion better than Federer's outside of the listed ones. Trabert, Nastase-super variety, topspin, slice, consistent, could hit topspin lobs off this side at will and a wonderful backhand drop shot, HL Doherty, Santana-great topspin backhand and great variety of spin. I have a friend who can talk about his backhand for hours, Bobby Riggs-very consistent, great off return of serve, great lob, Roy Emerson-Known for his great backhand, Ted Pell-an ancient name but before Budge, he was considered to be perhaps having the greatest backhand, Hans Nusslein-He never missed and used to win tournament after tournament in the Pros at his best. Nusslein was a dominant player in the late 1930's along with Perry, Vines and Budge, John McEnroe-can hit the ball on the rise, infinite variety, drop shots, lobs, great angles and superb on the return. Now that I think of it McEnroe's backhand is one of those that may belong on this list. McEnroe also had a great sliced backhand approach that set himself up of his volley winners.
I'm sure with a little thought I can name others.
My point here is that Federer has a fine backhand but you can see by the standards of our time that it's not a great weapon and really shouldn't be considered among the greatest backhand's list. He runs around it constantly and even more so when he's in trouble. It works with his super game because he keeps the ball in play with it (with occasion winners) and sets up his great forehand. Stats show (from what I've seen) that he has very low numbers for winners on the backhand compared to many others. If Federer is here, than Djokovic and Murray should be above him and I don't see them on the list.
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Changmaster
Rookie
??? Blake doesn't hit his one-hander that hard, I've seen Fed hit his bh harder than Blake. But I agree with the rest of your post, I don't think anyone in history can do more outrageous things with their backhand than Fed.
But does he deserve a top 20 spot? I'm not sure, but I highly question some of the other guys in the top 20, like Becker.
Some of you are selling Roger's backhand real short.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2A9ymMER0Y
The flick bh is the shot that Sampras said he NEVER seen it before. You ranking him behind many players with a one-handed bh is a complete joke!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2A9ymMER0Y
The flick bh is the shot that Sampras said he NEVER seen it before. You ranking him behind many players with a one-handed bh is a complete joke!
Changmaster
Rookie
Everything you said about Mac's bh here, you could say about Fed's bh, perhaps even more so. And Fed's bh passing shots are absurdly good. Heck, I think Mac himself might trade his backhand for Fed's!
But what about Becker's bh? Does his bh really deserve to be in the top 20? And was his backhand better than Fed's?
And was Edberg's bh really that good? I mean, for it to be one of the top 5 backhands of ALL-TIME, it has to be pretty darn special, to say the least. But does it deserve to be that high? Was it really better than, say, Agassi or Nalby's backhands?
Changmaster
Rookie
Well, Pete was prob. slightly exaggerating there, of course that sort of shot had been bit before Fed's time. But, i don't think anyone in history has hit that shot as well as Fed has, or as consistently.
And I agree, I seriously doubt that a lot of guys with one-handers, such as Edberg, Lendl, and Becker, have bhs much better than Fed's. For example, the list here has Edberg top 5 ALL-TIME! That means, according to the list, Edberg's backhand was MUCH, MUCH better than Fed's. But was it???
Fed's backhand has obviously contributed a ton to his unmatched success, since he spends, by far, most of his time at the baseline. Unlike, say, Sampras, who can get away with a mediocre backhand because he spends so much time at the net, Fed needs to have a supreme backhand to deal with guys from the baseline, even despite having perhaps the greatest weapon in tennis history, his forehand.
For those reasons, Fed's backhand deserves SERIOUS consideration. Not just, "well, his backhand's not that great against Nadal, so it can't be that good." Well, none of the other one-handers like Edberg and Becker had to deal with a heavy assault from one of the greatest lefty forehands in history, so you can't make that judgement. Plus, they played on faster courts, unlike today, which suits one-handers better. They also played with less topspin, which again, is easier for one-handers to handle than heavier shots.
illkhiboy
Hall of Fame
I disagree that Agassi had a better backhand than Nalbandian. Here's an analysis I did on another thread:
Agassi's backhand, wonderful though it was, is a bit overrated (relatively speaking). Nalbandian's, to me, is better. Agassi could hit the cross court shot harder with more consistency, but Nalbandian can re-direct the ball much better. He can hit the inside-out with more consistency and depth than any other double-hander. Nalbandian, of course is also much better at hitting the down the line backhand. In fact, I think, particularly in later years, Agassi's lack of a great down the line shot cost him against the the likes of Coria and Nalbandian who would routinely change directions against him for winners.
Watch the Nalbandian-Agassi matches and judge for yourself who has the better backhand. Nalbandian loses quite a few of the backhand to backhand exchanges between the two, but he gets a lot more winners down the line too. Now that is also because is a better mover than Agassi, but it's also because he is more comfortable changing direction. Agassi, in one of his interviews described his down the liner, as a "position shot." I think what he meant is, that it's a shot he uses to move his opponent around rather than end the point. For as hard as Agassi's cross court backhand was, his up the liner rarely was hit as hard. He would only really use it when he had the opponent far out of position on the ad side. Even then, hit was much more comfortable going into the deuce court with his forehand.
In summation, Agassi could hit the crosscourt harder though not neccesarily better, since Nalbandian gets more spin on his shot and that can be more useful at times. Nalbandian, though has the better shot up the line and inside out. Both can take it early, but Agassi might be slightly better on the return, and could take it earlier than Nalbandian.
hoodjem
G.O.A.T.
Absolutely YES!
Edberg's backhand is classic, superb, textbook. Impeccable. Flawless. Smooth, balletic, fluid, perfect. Never-fail, super-consistent.
People study it for its beauty.
pc1
G.O.A.T.
Thousands of players set up shots with their backhands. Yes Federer's good at it but so was John Newcombe, Jack Kramer, Pancho Gonzalez, Tony Roche, and lots of others. Some of these guys had excellent backhands.
pc1
G.O.A.T.
McEnroe could do more with his backhand. I don't think McEnroe would trade his backhand for Federer's any more than he would trade his volley for Federer's. And yes Edberg's backhand was superb. It was a brilliant stroke. Very smooth and elegant.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=He81C9YjNJk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iC3-0YX0m8U
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hoodjem
G.O.A.T.
I know Nastase's BH pretty well, and Santana's, and Emerson's and Trabert's. Riggs only a little; Nusslein's, Pell's, and Doherty's not all.
Thanks for reminding me that we are listing the greatest BH of all time. We are not discussing decent or pretty good or even very good. Of present players, is Fed's better than Djokovic's, Haas's, Gasquet's?
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Changmaster
Rookie
You keep saying how Edberg's bh was so smooth and elegant, and while it certainly was, Federer's is even more so. I think Fed has the most beautiful bh ever, and I know many, many people would agree.
Could McEnroe REALLY do more with his backhand? While that first clip is certainly an incredible shot, it's nothing Fed can't do. Here's a Fed bh that's similar: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTk6MDZ4TBU
And in that second clip, I didn't see anything that special from Mac's backhand.
Could you show me evidence that Edberg's backhand is deserving of his top 5 spot? And how about Becker? Was his backhand really better than Fed's? Some evidence please.
Meanwhile, here's Fed's bh:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oX7CcDIkMhE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fC3uI-A8fGM
pc1
G.O.A.T.
If you had seen McEnroe over the long run, you can see that his backhand can hit balls on the rise well, subtle changes of pace, spin and angle and his backhand return, especially at his best was excellent. He was capable of taking first serves with his backhand and approaching the net.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83QQcagnZtA&feature=related
Check some of the other parts as well and watch on he often moves in the backhand return and takes it on the rise. Federer doesn't attack the backhand return that often and usually blocks it back even against weak second serves.
No I don't believe Becker's backhand is better than Federer's.
Is Edberg's backhand deserving of top five, I don't know but I know that it can return serve well, can pass well, can hit approach shots well and was essentially the equivalent of a powerful forehand.
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N
Nathaniel_Near
Guest
Just quoting myself from the Fed vs Sampras backhand thread.
.. And to answer Hoodjem, i'd rather have Federer's economical backhand than Gasquets, which often he feels the need to try and hit from 2 metres behind the baseline.
Federer's backhand is quiet, and thus underrated, especially as it went under a magnifying glass because of Nadal and went through some quite ridiculous scrutiny which was accentuated because of the overbearing aura of the rest of his game.
Federer defends better with his backhand than Haas or Gasquet, is a more varied (but less explosive) shot-maker on that side, has mastered his use of the wrist on the backhand side (which produces shots he would have likely produced in any era), and produces better half volleys and instinctive plays on the backhand compared to those 2. I've thought for years now that Gasquet and Haas have overrated backhands and I'd rather have Nalbandian's to all 3 of these guys. Federer's backhand negates attack when on the run better than pretty much everybody elses at the moment except for maybe Djokovic, and yet Djokovic has been rather unimpressive to me now on the backhand side for at least half a year.
How many more times do we need to see Federer out-duel Haas or Gasquet in backhand to backhand exchanges or use it better to set up points in their head to head matches to see whose is likely better. The forehand is just so exceptional that he needn't use his backhand with the same frequency that Haas or Gasquet do in general throughout the last several years of the ATP tour, yet ironically he probably ends up hitting more because players do not want to see the Federer forehand.
Just recently he comes up against a supposedly superior backhand in Andy Murray's and puts it to the sword. He happily rallies backhand to backhand with Agassi back in the day.
I'm gonna be patronising for a moment. I actually find it pretty freaking funny that so many people rate Gasquet's or Haas' backhand over Federer's and sometimes others just because they are 'louder' backhands. Seems to me people miss the true beauty, variety, 'vastness' of Federer's backhand. His backhand is merely the lesser of 2 evils.
As for where it might go on this list, I don't know. But I sure as hell wouldn't place it behind Haas' or even Gasquet's, nor Nadal's, which frankly is too much of a liability ('relative' to Federer's backhand) too frequently on the faster surfaces.
In short, Federer's baseline artillery is pretty mammoth, but his forehand is surely better than his backhand.
*** Edit:
As for JMac and Fed, i've seen quite a lot of Jmac over the last 10 years actually as my dad has a fair amount of vids. Again, I'd take Federers.
My view on the comparison of Fed's Gasquet's and Haas' backhand has become more concrete now than it was when initially posting the quoted part of this post in a different thread. After watching over a lot of their tennis it made things rather clear indeed.
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Nathaniel_Near
Guest
I actually think that individual shot against Karlovic is one of Federer's more underrated 'special' shots. Just look at the racket-head control in the last slow motion replay. Frankly it's a ridiculous shot.
The kind of similar McEnroe shot impresses me hugely as well, though not quite as much.
N
Nathaniel_Near
Guest
How good was Bjorn Borg's backhand passing shot, those who have seen a lot of him? I was watching numerous highlights of him on youtube once again the other day and his backhand passing shot seems practically inhuman; it's like a homing missile or some sort of laser.
Datacipher
Banned
There is NO way. I would seriously question the judgment or breadth of knowledge of anyone who would put Federer in the top 20 of all time. I'm not at all sure, that he would qualify for top 20 backhand CURRENTLY on tour. If we could eliminate serve and forehand from the game of tennis, and all the players out there had to rely on their backhands, I doubt very much that Federer would be winning slams. In fact, I think he'd be a middling player, with an occasional big win, on a day when his backhand starts firing....and that's even given his great movement. I think this is even worse than suggesting Federer's serve should be considered one of the geatest....
pc1
G.O.A.T.
He may not have had the best backhand but his backhand passing shots may have been as good as anyone's.
hoodjem
G.O.A.T.
I agree completely. Fed does have a pretty good backhand.
I would go even better, and say that he has a very good backhand. (But remember that this list is not of pretty good backhands, or very good backhands, or even excellent backhands--it is a list of the best of all-time.)
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Datacipher
Banned
I don't think I would put him in my top 5 backhand,s and i don't think he had quite as much variety or consistency as some guys, but he might be #1 on my "most dangerous" BH's list.
PrinceMoron
Legend
Let's say for arguments sake half of all the points played are service returns.
Let's say again that half of those are backhand returns.
The only serves to Federer's backhand that he did not return were coming down at the top end of 120 mph.
And even more impressive was how often he was able to control the point from then on.
Makes me think Federer's backhand is a lot better than you give it credit for. He was the only guy in the men's draw I saw who did not give away easy points on backhand returns.
And at least he looks at the ball when he hits it, something NOBODY else on tour can do. If you can't get that bit right, then the whole stroke is built on very flimsy foundations.
So now I am going to have to go away and check out if the stats bear out my memories.........
abmk
Bionic Poster
not top 5, but it is under-rated I think ... It was brilliant and when on, he could rip winners at will !
abmk
Bionic Poster
perhaps, but if becker is at 12, I don't see this being ridiculous , I wouldn't put either of them in the top 15 !
that's idiotic ( rings a bell ? ) !
umm, the BH is used to setup the forehand and that is a MAJOR part of it !
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abmk
Bionic Poster
absolutely !!
zagor
Bionic Poster
With Fed it's hard to say.He does have an excellent BH,great angles,great touch with his flicks and half volleys,excellent passing shots etc. but it's not a consistant big weapon IMO the way some of the BHs currently on tour(let alone of all time)are.
IMO Nalbo,Novak,Stan,Nadal(at his best,not recently)Gasquet,Murray(in general even though he got outplayed on that win by Fed in recent AO final),maybe even Delpo and Haas all have overall better BHs than Fed.
I think Fed's BH is a great compliment to the rest of his game but as a standalone shot guys I mentioned above arguably have better BHs.
IMO Nalbo,Novak,Stan,Nadal(at his best,not recently)Gasquet,Murray(in general even though he got outplayed on that win by Fed in recent AO final),maybe even Delpo and Haas all have overall better BHs than Fed.
I think Fed's BH is a great compliment to the rest of his game but as a standalone shot guys I mentioned above arguably have better BHs.
abmk
Bionic Poster
those BHs of retired players, which were better than fed's ( open era only )
laver
rosewall
ashe
vilas
connors
borg
wilander
agassi
kafelnikov
guga
rios
safin
more or less the same level
lendl
edberg
better BHs now:
nalbandian
djokovic
murray
gasquet
nadal
delpo
stan
haas, umm,maybe, but I'd take federer
Edit: add davydenko to the list !
laver
rosewall
ashe
vilas
connors
borg
wilander
agassi
kafelnikov
guga
rios
safin
more or less the same level
lendl
edberg
better BHs now:
nalbandian
djokovic
murray
gasquet
nadal
delpo
stan
haas, umm,maybe, but I'd take federer
Edit: add davydenko to the list !
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abmk
Bionic Poster
while edberg shouldn't be in the top5, there is no way fed is in the running or even deserves consideration for the greatest BH , hell about 6/7 are better in this era alone !
zagor
Bionic Poster
Man,still ain't use to looking at Safin as a former player.
I forgot about Davydenko,would you say his BH is better than Fed's?
abmk
Bionic Poster
he he, that's understandable !
when he's playing well, with his head screwed on, it sure is . But it can go off horribly at times. overall yeah, I'd take his over fed's ( you can add him to the list ). But would chose fed's if I required heavy neutralising off that wing or to throw someone off rhythm with the slice !
İ think delpo does not have a better backhand than federers he has no variations at all , as for djokovic his slice is not comparable with federers so i would not consider his backhand better.
For those who think Federer can not hit a hard flat backhand.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAze6rSmVFI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAze6rSmVFI
pc1
G.O.A.T.
Federer lost the match to serve and volleyer Henman 7-5, 7-6(6), 2-6, 7-6(6). He couldn't have hit that many great passing shots in that match.
Of course he can hit some hard backhands, everyone can with the rackets today and he is a great player.
