New video, critique away! Note my feet turning towards the curtain, how do I stop that?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8rlTNOeoHw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8rlTNOeoHw
When trying to get my hip over the baseline
It feels good if I can get the toss in just the right spot. Not great, but certainly leagues better than before. Percentage is about 30%.How does it feel? Does it still feel awkward and hurting your shoulder or does it feel natural. Anything not feel right? What is your percentage in getting the serve in?
I kind of like it. Still not bowing the left hip out, toss arm back. SWivel the butt around towards the net, and stick the left hip out, and bend the toss arm backwards after the j toss, to get more bow into the shot. Good stick accel.
now why dont you show us a video of you playing a match so we can really see the improve on your serve (and mental serve)
Thanks, continued progress is required! I should be playing in a tournament next weekend if I can get some practice time in, but all indoor courts are booked and its gonna rain for the next few days :?I'm liking the explosion into the ball and subsequent explosion into the court. You seem to have good balance upon landing. This is essential. If you don't, good returners will capitalize on this and catch you off guard...even if you hit a great serve.
Good stuff PV...now get those percentages up.
Not everybody has an archers bow either...if your body is telling you it doesn't want to do it...don't. You make up for that slight loss in power for that in other areas of your serve. But definitely try.
I'm 5'10 and the height of the carpet lol. And yes, I'm a natural S&Ver, but my forehand is my best stroke when returning. I don't rush the net on opponents' service games unless it's a weak second serve. DTL 1HBH is my most frequent passing shot somehow because I can't make the angle necessary off that wing to go short and cross court.PV how tall are you? I sometimes speak as if everybody was my height 6'4" lol. Sometimes concentrating too much on the bow is a detriment...I didn't mean to imply that it isn't vital because it most certainly is...especially if you're under 6' and need every resource possible so you don't cheat yourself out of power.
Legendary 'bows' you might wanna check out: Mac, Courier, Soderling
Yes, much more shoulder tilt is needed. In a year (or possibly less) this is gonna be a devastating serve. Toss height seems consistent which is clutch, even if location is still an issue.
Also, are you a natural s&v'er? If so that's great because your momentum is taking you well towards the court...if you're a baseliner this could be a serious problem.
I will be doing a lot of tossing practice, don't worry!Definite progress.
Tricky is right that you don't want to force the front hip movement at the expence of everything else, but it still is good to see you getting the left hip at least out over the baseline as you go into the trophy pose.
You may want to work on your service toss next as Lsmkenpo posted last week. That tossing arm goes up so extremely behind your head that it leaves you out of position to quickly get back into a more agressive trophy pose with the L hip out and the rear shoulder down in the bow position.
Keep it up!
Why would I show a video of match play when I'm trying to fix a stroke to get prepared for match play? I'd just revert back to what I've been doing for years and you wouldn't see anything new. :?now why dont you show us a video of you playing a match so we can really see the improve on your serve (and mental serve)
I will try this and see if it works :shock:The tossing motion has not improved, you are still bringing the ball back too far and tossing up from behind your head.
This is preventing you from coiling, your shoulder has to move up and back to coil not forward. Physically It is impossible to coil if your shoulder is moving forward, your spine can not bend in two opposites directions at the same time very far.
If the tossing motion is incorrect the rest of the service motion will suffer, you have to fix the tossing motion first, before you can work on any other part of your service motion.
If you want to reach a coiled position you have to make this change, there is no way around it.
You can still use the backwards j tossing motion you use now, just move it further out in front and bring your tossing arm up in front of your head, which will automatically bring your shoulder up and back at the same time, this will allow the hip extension into the court naturally. Fix the toss it will make the coil so much easier, trust me.
Why would I show a video of match play when I'm trying to fix a stroke to get prepared for match play? I'd just revert back to what I've been doing for years and you wouldn't see anything new. :?
IMO, when you first learn a new technique it's best NOT to play matches because you're liable to slip back into your comfort zone, which usually means abandoning the new technique altogether.
With regard to the second serve, whenever I adopt a change, the second stays the same. All that I do differently is change the backscratch position and shift my racquet grip to more eastern BH. I hit a topspin second serve with the same stick acceleration. Looking from the side, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference.OK so you are fixing a stroke why all that we see is a first serve? is you are fixing the serve need more your second serve to stay in the point.
what i mean is when you are having a problem timing a stroke the first thing you need to do is feel what you are doing wrong and at full speed that is not easy.
When i having a lot of trouble on the serve i tend to slice it more for gaining confidence and don't get frustrated in practice and especially on a match.
With regard to the second serve, whenever I adopt a change, the second stays the same. All that I do differently is change the backscratch position and shift my racquet grip to more eastern BH. I hit a topspin second serve with the same stick acceleration. Looking from the side, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference.
And on your last point, how is that helpful to me, let alone yourself with regards to fixing your stroke?
I'm trying to emulate his motion and can'tWhat happen to your feet/stance? I like your service motion in the first two videos...it looked more natural and comfortable. Your serve is very nice btw.
When your start your knee bend, it looks rushed. You bend your knees really fast, and then explode out of the trophy pose really fast. My only suggestion would be to bend your knees slower and gradually get into the trophy pose. I would then try to pause in that position to build energy and then explode up into the serve similar to Federer's. I honestly would just try to emulate Feds service motion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HW4-7uhUjdI&feature=related
I apologize if this suggestion has already been made, I haven't read any of the posts
Hey guys, it's time for another help PV Audio with his serve thread. Last time around was over 6 months ago and as I was learning and improving my new technique, school started again and in this case, 400 level EE courses are a bit more important than fixing my serve. So, for the past months I've been stuck in limbo with a mediocre serve and just last weekend I got around to going out and hitting serves for two hours. I realized that I couldn't go back to the way that I changed it this past summer (up together to racquet drop) and have decided to go back to the up together method, but improve it. It feels decently solid; there are some serves that just feel perfect and theres those that feel good, but simply don't compare to the aforementioned ones. So I'm back again looking for critique of my mechanics to get my pace up and my accuracy back. Note that I do realize I foot fault in just about every video; I only realize that now and it's one of the problems that comes with wearing size 14 Barricades :? , so I'll make sure to take note that next time. Critique away!
I've included the prior video for comparison purposes only to show you what I changed. The newest one is first:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXj8RIdlIG0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FbSdunVwvw
-Dave
Yeah i noticed the foot faulting all the time. Wow man why not just back up like a foot or two? Seems like it'd be an easy fix. Personally I've never foot faulted but if you have bigger feet and you love to turn your left foot perpendicular to the baseline just before you leave your feet I'd say just buck up a little and then serve.
Service speed is generally related to the racket head speed at ball contact, NOT THE SPEED OF YOUR ARM/Wrist AT CONTACT. It's the whip of the racket thru the ball that provided the speed for a good serve, not the speed of your arm and racket when the ball is hit.
Perhaps the most critical feature of the service is the 4 dimensional position of your wrist/grip axis point in relationship to the ball when the ball is stuck. The XYZ position of your axis point is the typical right/left, high/low, forward/back relationship to the ball. The 4th dimension is the dynamic trajectory of your wrist/grip axis point at impact.
Service speed is generally related to how fast (and controlled) you accelerate your arm and racket at the beginning of your service move (this gets the racket moving) and then how fast you decelerate your arm and wrist just prior to contact so the racket head is whipped thru the ball. Having a relaxed axis of rotation (wrist) for the racket to whip full speed thru the ball while your wrist/arm position is relatively stationary to the speed of racket movement is critical to a quality power serve.
The generally stationary axis point of your wrist at contact in relationship to the ball is critical to developing a consistent serve. It's a relatively easily repeated relationship with limited dynamics.
Whipping the racket with a strong wrist and fast arm movement thru the ball is generally not helpful to a strong serve. There are too many dynamics that need to happen at just the right time when there is a lot of arm movement at contact. Plus, you miss the speed provided by the racket head when it is whipped thru the ball. The racket's whipping action only happens when you slow your axis point at contact.
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A simple training exercise to improve racket speed.
Materials (disclaimer -- I've not particular attachment of any sort with this gear. It's just what I settled on buying and works).
-- 5' long resistant tube training with handles and door attachment. Medium to strong tubing. Amazon $9 -- http://www.amazon.com/SPRI-ES503R-Resistance-Attachment-Exercise/dp/B0000AJ05D
-- door
Method -- Tie one end of the tubing to the door attachment so you have most of the 5' to use with the other handle. Attach the door attachment at the bottom hinge of the door and close the door.
Grip the handle of the free end as a tennis racket and put the handle just behind your head like the back part of your service motion. Move forward until there is a bit of tension on the tubing. Then do your service motion, coming to stop at the point of contact.
Ideally, your service movement also includes getting up on your toes and reaching as high up as possible. As a 6 footer, this means I'm finishing my full stroke on my toes, touching a particular and consistent point on the ceiling, and rotating my wrist at impact. Hold this position for just a moment, then relax and repeat. Cycle 25 times several times a day.
This will create not only stronger service muscles, but, if done properly, create all important muscle memory of how to execute a power serve.
Of course, something similar can be used to power up ground strokes, moving the door attachment up or down as appropriate for top spin, flat, or cut shots.
I appreciate your contribution, but none of this actually helps fix specific flaws in my motion. If you were teaching someone how to serve for the first time, then your information would be of great benefit, but it doesn't really help me in any way, but still thank you.If you look at the Green court stop action of Sampras's service motion (Post 122), it needs to be carefully pointed out how little Pete's wrist/axis point moves in the first three frames, especially in relationship to his racket head. In these three frames, his wrist is perhaps moving little more than 18", possibly less. Meanwhile, the racket head is moving several feet. After impact, the follow-thru arm speed picks up, moving perhaps several feet per frame.
The critical feature of the service that is more overlooked or confused is getting the moving axis point (wrist) at the proper position in relationship to the ball at impact with a fast moving racket head. This 4 dimensional relationship determines where the ball is going and how it spins. This exact relationship of ball to a moving axis point must be fine tuned to execute the various service spins. This repeatable position is most easily accomplished by slowing the arm movement to almost a standstill at impact. This assumes the arm speed has accelerated properly during the first part of your serve, (till it passes your ear). This slowing in turn causes the racket head to accelerate (whip) through the ball at contact.
Don't forget to include additional secondary movements such as powering up on your toes, un-arching your back as you extend upwards, turning your shoulders and hips as you reach for full extension at impact.
All of these 'secondary' movements count, both in adding power and consistency. They all need to be done in a fluid fashion results in a consistent and repeatable position at impact. It's difficult to just add one or another willy nilly and expect a consistent service to result any more than you can drive a car with one of four wheels off.
When one or more of these service motions is removed for the second serve, (or added for the first serve), you are asking for new troubles of one sort or another. It's better for a second serve to focus on adding top or side spin and perhaps just taking off a bit of everything rather than removing various parts of the service motion. Removing part of your first service motion for a second serve really means you are attempting to learn and use two separate service motions. This can be done, but requires additional practice on both first and second service motions to be consistent.
Thank you for the suggestions. I do toss the ball further in front when playing. My camera only had 10 minutes of video left so what you see there is right in the middle of my 2 hour practice. Either way, you're completely correct!Hey PV ... your service motion looks really good ... I like your rhythm and tempo ... you hold your tossing up nicely and get a good "archer's bow" ... I also like your fast swing (... obviously attacking the ball which is good) ... I haven't read all the posts so these suggestions might be redundant ... my apologies ... first, you look like you are of average height and weight ... you may want to consider using a pin point stance to add just a bit more pace to your ball ... also, your service motion is very vertical ... up and down ... I know you can add greater pace to your serve if you "lean" into your hit (... almost falling into the court) ... in other words, the ball toss should be a little more into the court ... btw ... what's your average serving speed now ... must be about 100 - 105 MPH ... otherwise looks very good ... keep up the good work and thanks for sharing!
The hip thing is not obvious because it's not there! I've been trying to get the damn thing to work for ages now. I probably should have set the camera in the same side angle view, but if you can't see in the videos, I use the ball cart as a tripod which requires that the court next to me be open (the net being pulled open) so that I can get my entire body into the frame. People were playing on the courts on either side of me, so I couldn't shoot from the side unless you wanted to see a decapitated tennis player :lol:great thread, and nice action. One point, i know the left hip leaning into court was raised before in this thread...
personally (not as good as you) i found this single tip to have been the trigger for my serve moving from below average to something that can be very above average. I now do not think about it, but it has been the trigger for so many other good things i now do (or try to do)- (knee bend, holding toss arm higher and longer, loosening the arm in the swing etc)....
in the pics I can see of yours I notice you have good leg bend and get good power, but the hip thing is not obvious to me. Thus the archers bow is not as pronounced as it could be?
Do you think about this, do you already do it but maybe its not clear in the picture, or do you think its not that relevant?
cheers
Thank you for the suggestions. I do toss the ball further in front when playing. My camera only had 10 minutes of video left so what you see there is right in the middle of my 2 hour practice. Either way, you're completely correct!
And I have no idea as to what my serve speed is anymore. I stopped caring about numbers and started caring more about placement since I hit with some topspin on my first serve which makes it heavier and kicks off of the ground instead of just losing its speed like a flat serve.
Precisely. If you can get your racquet on a 120mph flat serve and just block it back, it's taking that same pace right back at your feet. If you can get your racquet on a 110mph serve with some topspin, then you really have to work to change the direction of that ball.Hey PV ... yeah, I was suspecting as much (... that you do "lean" in on your serve and ball toss more into the court when you play matches) ... also, an excellent point regarding serving speed ... I find it easier to "block" back a flat fast serve than trying to return a HEAVY top spin serve (... which requires me to hit through and follow through completely on the return ... a more difficult shot for the returner) ... anyway, a really outstanding serve ... I know you've been working hard on it, and it shows ... good hitting to you!