Cheating

From a therapeutic standpoint I need to post what I saw at my sons last tournament. He was playing the little Mos tournament were they actually make you read and sign a code of conduct on cheating and sportsmanship. The match started out very close and at critical points his opponent would call a ball that hit on the line out. They were playing no add so at 2 all deuce my son hits a nice passing shot on the line wins the point and the kid calls it out ( my son does not argue ball clearly in). Later, at 4-2 my son serves a second serve at 15-0 that clearly lands in the middle of the serve box no where near a line the kid plays it back my son hits a crosscourt shot the kid shanks it into a light and then says the second serve was out ( my son gave him the point after arguing for a few minutes. My son was so frustrated after that he served under hand to prove a point and this kid would not return it and told him he cant serve underhand. Nearly every close ball and even balls that were clearly in this kid would call out. The real frustration for me is that my son just let it happen, he let this kid just take the match by cheating. Talking with other parents watching this kid is known for cheating.

I will talk with him today and find out why he did not get a line judge or do something. I am starting to see a trend with some of these juniors cheating to win at all cost. I don't want to sound like a sore loser just need to vent if it comes across that way then let me have it. What can be done about these kids cheating and the parents letting it happen? My son is to shy to talk to the tournament director about it, and If I tried to say something the would bite my head off and say the kids need to play there own match with no intervention from the parents.

The best I can tell you is that you and even better your sons coaches teach your son the following. First bad call say nothing, maybe an extended stare at where the ball may have landed, second bad call say "are you sure" then if necessary because the call was clearly, beyond a shadow of doubt from you sons view in, have your son tell his opponent if it happens again he will go get a line judge. 3rd bad call go get a line judge.

Bad line calls in juniors has been going on since the beginning of time. Sometimes it's more noticeable on a match over match or tournament by tournament basis. From my view most kids are good sports and try to make the right call, lines and rules. I tell my kid if he ever feels like he's being cheated and does not get a line judge during the match, don't tell me your opponent was cheating you after the match if you don't do anything about it. Get a line judge if you're being cheated.

I think it helps a players development and decision making abilities to never tell them during the match their opponent made a bad call. He has to make that judgment for himself. Just know as your player gets older, you won't be there for every match. Also, telling your player to get a line judge can be argued is a directive and interpreted as coaching.

Lastly, the the opponents parents of the perceived cheater, can't do much about it. I will never approach a players parent to discuss their child's bad line calls or sportsmanship. Never get involved in a match from the sidelines except to support your players efforts. It's very poor sportsmanship and rude. I will however, if a parent gets involved in my child or players match politely put a stop to it by telling them "the kids need to play the matches on their own. I'm not involved, neither should you, it's against the rules". At that point I will get a referee to let them know of the other players parents or coaches involvement in the match from the sidelines. It's only fair. No intimidation and no coaching.

Referees will respond if you tell them the parents/coaches of your players match are getting involved from the sidelines. If you tell them there's bad line calls going on, they may go watch from a distance, but they are not supposed to go on the court unless requested by the player.

Not everyone adheres to my point of view. It works for me and keeps my blood pressure lower. It's hard watching your kid compete and even harder if you think his opponent is a cheater. Sounds like you may be a little new to junior tennis. I believe over time the good memories will out weigh the bad. However, it's the really bizarre moments that hurt and sometimes seem to standout most, they are short lived. Play the game for the positive moments and emphasize them. Your player will develop as a stronger one in the long-run. You will also likely have produced player who wins more often then not, a good sport on the court and off and a tennis player for life.

Hope this helps.

I like your point of view. My kid will fight for fairness and make sure that anyone within an ear shout is aware after the 2nd offense.

I might also add that parents can and should get involved after the match by filing a grievance. I would only do this for the kids with chronic vision problems. Believe me, you're doing the kid a favor by making the USTA aware of the serial offenders. Most parents don't want to get involved which is understandable but, a handful of kids need to be put on notice so that they will hopefully make the right turn when they come to a fork in the road.

karma... what comes around, goes around

I was watching a high school regionals tournament last month. One of the players clearly did not know much about tennis, but he sure knew how to call close shots out, purposefully call out the wrong score, and do the old play-the-point-hit-it-out oh wait your serve was out.

The other player just let him do it for the first set. Kept shaking his head like "Am I really seeing this happen?" So, "cheater" wins first set. Two games into second set, other player wins game, but cheater kid starts claiming score was only 40-15. Finally, other kid says that's enough, you're ripping me.

Cheater kid yells out "I want a line judge then." The kid is being a major punk but has caused a scene so they give him a line judge. Worst mistake ever for the cheater.

Cheater kid won three more games rest of match. So, the lesson is, if you are going to cheat, don't be the player that requests a line judge.

Man if I ever saw my kids cheating they would be out of that sport so fast.. Boo parents who allow their kids to make bad calls.

I know how you feel, and believe me it's worse for the parent witnessing this behaviour than it is for the child who bears the brunt of it.

In my experience of watching my son play junior tennis, the kids who get a reputation for being cheats either grow out of it quickly or give the sport up and disappear from the circuit.

For what it's worth, the majority of kids do not do this deliberately but of course some do. There is no immediate recourse other than get a tournament official to come and watch the match for a while, but all kids at some point play a hooker and learn the hard way.

All you can do is let your son know that he played well, and that he did enough to win the match. Reiterate to him the importance of dealing with this type of situation quickly and I hope for your sake that he doesn't come across too many of these characters.

Final word of warning for you - no matter how bad the line calls are, try to refrain from getting involved in the match or even worse with the other kid or his parents. The tennis court is a place where our children must learn to fight their own battles, which is often difficult for us parents to grasp.

Good luck for future tourneys!

I concur that it is the parent's fault. Of the cheater kid. Shame on them for letting their kids do it and watch it and never say anything. For all you know they are encouraging it. There was a recent match where a mom recoreded part of and her son was up 4-1 against a high ranked player in our section, and all of a sudden the other kid starts calling tons of balls out, ends up winning first set and then the match. Her son said nothing, just got frustrated. Anyway, back in Europe, some coaches teach their players how to deal with this. Not the best way, but for those of you who care this is what they say to do. If you see the kid call good ball out, ask if you are sure, next one that you are certain was in and was called out say fine. Then the very next ball of his/hers that is in but close, call out. He'll ask if you're sure say absolutely, they say usually cheater will stop after that, and get the message that if he messes with you you are not just going to take it. They also teach kids how to point at where the ball was, make sure you see it(of course it is clay). I am not saying this is the right way or that I approve of this method.

I myself, and probably everyone on this forum have witnessed cheating before. I myself don't cheat and most people I play don't, yet some people call any close balls to the line out. It's ridiculous and it doesn't help when organisers of tournaments do not use an umpire or line judge . .
Anyway, at the end of the day they can't cheat in an official tournament, so it's their loss. They're used to line shots being out but in a proper tournament they will have to deal with people hitting flashing winners.
It sucks, but they will get their comeuppance.

What goes around, comes around.

andfor said:

...
Bad line calls in juniors has been going on since the beginning of time. ....

... don't tell me your opponent was cheating you after the match if you don't do anything about it. Get a line judge if you're being cheated.

I think it helps a players development and decision making abilities to never tell them during the match their opponent made a bad call. He has to make that judgment for himself. ...

Never get involved in a match from the sidelines except to support your players efforts. ....

It's only fair. No intimidation and no coaching.

...

Play the game for the positive moments and emphasize them. Your player will develop as a stronger one in the long-run. .....

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Temendous post. Good long-term view. There is no place on the internet for such sound logic and wonderful perspective.

Rina said:

...Anyway, back in Europe, some coaches teach their players how to deal with this. Not the best way, but for those of you who care this is what they say to do. If you see the kid call good ball out, ask if you are sure, next one that you are certain was in and was called out say fine. Then the very next ball of his/hers that is in but close, call it out...

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Some idiot coaches and many parents teach that here in the States, too. They call it a 'retaliatory call' or 'cheating them back'.
I remember being told to do that once and thinking, nah, two wrongs don't make a right.
I also remember Arthur Ashe saying to just use the word, 'unacceptable' when faced with an obvious hook. But to never hook back.

As a former player, a former coach and a tennis parent here is what I'd want my kid to do if he ran into a cheater.

1. First bad call:
Hey, honest mistake there. You probably saw that out, but seriously, my shot got the line. The line is good. We cool?

Second bad call: You sure about that call? I get it, man -- it is your call. But it is unacceptable. You really want to win a point like that? I want to play a good, hard, clean, honest match. Don't you?

Third hook: Are you sure about that call? Unacceptable. Do you want me to hook you right back on the next point...or just get a linejudge? I am going to the tournament desk to get a linejudge so this doesn't happen again today.

2. Scoring trouble: call the score out on every point before the first serve. If the server does not do it, ask him to please call it out loudly enough to hear.

3. Big picture: Play a little less close to the lines. Understand that a few point here and there rarely make the match. It's important to see the whole picture, not just fume over a few points.

I once lost a big, tight, semifinal match because I got hooked incessantly after going up a set and a break. I got angry and it showed in my tennis. I deserved to lose because I got rattled. I waited WAY too long before I got a linejudge. I did not see it that way at age 14 in a really big Grand Prix tournament, but I realize that now. I could have handled it much, much better. Instead, the other kid (top seed, nationally ranked, heavily favored) played me like a fiddle, and won the tournament. Rode it all the way to DI college tennis, where stuff like this does not work as well (roving officials). We beat him in dubs in college. Never got another crack at him in singles, unfortunately. Maybe one day in 50s or something, hahah.

andfor, thanks for your post.

chalkflewup said:

I might also add that parents can and should get involved after the match by filing a grievance.

Most parents don't want to get involved which is understandable but, a handful of kids need to be put on notice so that they will hopefully make the right turn when they come to a fork in the road.

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I have seen this actually work. The cheater was well known to be such by other kids and parents. About a dozen parents filed grievances within a very short period of time after the cheater played back to back tournaments. The cheaters parents raised a stink but the USTA actually sent a covert operative (lol - that's how we referred to it after we found out) to observe the cheater's matches. The most surprising thing, really, was that somebody at USTA actually grew a pair and did something about it.

North said:

I have seen this actually work. The cheater was well known to be such by other kids and parents. About a dozen parents filed grievances within a very short period of time after the cheater played back to back tournaments. The cheaters parents raised a stink but the USTA actually sent a covert operative (lol - that's how we referred to it after we found out) to observe the cheater's matches. The most surprising thing, really, was that somebody at USTA actually grew a pair and did something about it.

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What happened to this player after being observed? What was the action/outcome?

BMC9670 said:

What happened to this player after being observed? What was the action/outcome?

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The USTA made it so he would have to have an official monitoring all his matches - they were even going to charge him for it. It became a moot point, really, because it wound up being slow death by ostracism - lol. Between everyone knowing the kid was a cheater and the kids (and a few of the parents) jeering "hey cheater" all the time, the kid stopped playing in our area. I've never seen, or heard of, any action quite this drastic but wish it would happen more often. Asking kids to stand up to bullies (which the cheaters essentially are) does not relieve us (adults/parents) from stepping in and stopping the bullies/cheaters.

I have to admit I am somewhat cynical and can't help but wonder whose kid the cheater cheated out of a match (?USTA official, local politician?). I hope it really was justice being done by people who care about doing the right thing.

Brocolt-
This is not a new situation. As long as their have been sporting events there has been cheating of one form or another. What's the phrase about baseball..."if you ain't cheating you aren't trying"
However, as a coach 10 yrs ago I used to say wait for 3 bad calls then go and get an umpire. The same old line about a couple bad calls do not add up to the multiple unforced errors you make etc..

In 2011, I say 1 bad call because in the last decade the cheating has got so bad that you have to send a message immediately. It is almost a part of strategy (cheating) now to get you off of your game, stalling, excessive bathroom breaks, etc.

This type of behavior is not only tolerated but taught. I now tell all of the girls I coach that if your opponent needs to use the restroom....you do too!! because if you don't go with them, their coach or mom may be in the bathroom with them giving them strategy/coaching, this happens often in tournaments.

So as a parent or coach the main thing to do is educate period.
Information is the key, and the great thing is your child does not have to be nasty about it at all, just tell their opponent that they feel uncomfortable with the calls and having a linesman will remove the pressure and we can just play tennis.

How does that story end?

2023:

That kid grew up to be a college graduate, and a loyal husband and father. A tennis dad who lives vicariously through his kids through good tennis, good sportsmanship and a healthy respect for others/

Or: suspended for academic fraud in college. Drugs. Crime. Larceny.

slice bh compliment said:

andfor, thanks for your post.

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Thanks Slice. I've seen this from every perspective. Just when you think you've seen it all a new situation comes up.

I could talk on this issue for some time. I will say blaming the parents is not always the answer. For chronic cheaters maybe. For one perceived bad match of line calls, I myself, am cautious in passing judgment on players, parents and coaches. I don't feel I'm naive either. I can't tell you how many times I've heard about so-and-so being a big cheater, watched them play a close match, and never noticed an incident.

Nothing justifies blatant cheating or retaliatory cheating. I prefer to teach knowing how to handle the situation using the rules in your favor/as needed. Fair play wins out. Cheaters flame out.

The kids all seem to know who cheats. The problem with getting the officials is that unless they are going to stay and watch the whole match, the cheater just waits for the official to leave. Rather than seeing prevelant cheaters in the 16's, we seem to see the cheat when I need to cheaters. For example, they call good until a 10 point tie breaker or the call good until the need the point to go to deuce or, what we saw for the first time at the 14 zonals last year, your ace is now a let. Unfortunately, a lot of these kids are academy kids and are ranked fairly high. There are some academies in our state that have nicknames referencing the cheating.

So I've seen my child let the ball drop in the middle of the court (after numerous bad calls), call it out, give the point to his opponent but let him know that two can play that way. I have also seen my child yell at his opponent for his family to quit making his calls for him and or quit coaching. Unfortunately, the officials system with just 1 to every 8 -10 courts does not allow for close enough monitoring of cheaters.

^That whole waiting until the official is out of view thing sounds way too stressful to actually be a competitive strategy. What a maroon.

If someone devotes that kind of energy to cheating, why can't they devote more to actually playing the beautiful game?

It's like the average US HS student knows how to make facebook appear automatically on their desktop and their iPhone...and sneak ways to devote about three hours per day to social pursuits, but they cannot find the Ukraine, Kenya or Holland on a map. It's just misguided.

It will get better as your son gets older.

Other comments below:

Brocolt said:

From a therapeutic standpoint I need to post what I saw at my sons last tournament. He was playing the little Mos tournament were they actually make you read and sign a code of conduct on cheating and sportsmanship.

Little Mo's? What age group? (note - always lots of bad line calls by 9 & 10 y/o kids. If you're kid is good enough, have him play in 12s.

I assume this was played in Arlington? Personally, I'd avoid Little Mo's altogether.....it's for the mommys who like trophys & parades etc.

The match started out very close and at critical points his opponent would call a ball that hit on the line out. They were playing no add so at 2 all deuce my son hits a nice passing shot on the line

If it was "on the line" (in your eyes).....then it's pretty much a judgement call.


....wins the point and the kid calls it out ( my son does not argue ball clearly in). Later, at 4-2 my son serves a second serve at 15-0 that clearly lands in the middle of the serve box no where near a line the kid plays it back my son hits a crosscourt shot the kid shanks it into a light and then says the second serve was out ( my son gave him the point after arguing for a few minutes.

Don't argue "for a few minutes".....don't argue even for a few seconds.... Make the call & if the other kid doesn't like it, tell him to get a ref.

My son was so frustrated after that he served under hand to prove a point and this kid would not return it and told him he cant serve underhand. Nearly every close ball and even balls that were clearly in this kid would call out. The real frustration for me is that my son just let it happen, he let this kid just take the match by cheating. Talking with other parents watching this kid is known for cheating.

Is he from Texas?

I will talk with him today and find out why he did not get a line judge or do something. I am starting to see a trend with some of these juniors cheating to win at all cost.

Definitely see it more at Little Mo type events & at 10s tournaments. (& lover level 12s). Once you're kid gets in Supers it will happen less. (Everyone knows everyone)

I don't want to sound like a sore loser just need to vent if it comes across that way then let me have it. What can be done about these kids cheating and the parents letting it happen? My son is to shy to talk to the tournament director about it,

Why would he?

and If I tried to say something the would bite my head off and say the kids need to play there own match with no intervention from the parents.

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Listen to all the advice given above. Unless you enjoy drama & crappy line calls, I'd avoid 10s tournaments (or god forbid....."under 10s" tournaments) & not waste your time or money on the "Little Mo" tournaments (unless they're in your town).

You're kid will be fine....especially once he gets in supers (assuming he's in TX).

A couple of months ago my son played a kid and beat him pretty easily, the kid did not make any bad calls. As we were leaving the facility we could see his Dad yelling at him in the parking lot for about ten minutes while the kids was trying not to cry. So a few weeks later my son played the kid again and this time he hooks my son on every close ball and some that were not even close. My son ended up losing the match as he was really thrown off. Do I blame the kid for cheating ? No, I blame the Dad for making his kid feel he has to win (a non qualified match) no matter what...

slice bh compliment said:

It's like the average US HS student knows how to make facebook appear automatically on their desktop and their iPhone...and sneak ways to devote about three hours per day to social pursuits, but they cannot find the Ukraine, Kenya or Holland on a map. It's just misguided.

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Not really. Humans do what they need to survive. When these high school students enter the workforce, knowledge of social networking and mobile apps will help them find employment. Already, there are recruiters who say they will not hire anyone who doesn't have a presence on LinkedIn. When high school students started playing computer games, we heard the same dire predictions. Today, it is a major industry, and even made use of by the military. It happened because these young guys played those games, created a market, grew up, started programming games, etc.

When I was a kid, adults were complaining about us not knowing "classical literature" and "poetry." They complained about bad handwriting, inability to write formal letters, and not finishing sentences in full. Today, they are typing on the keyboard and sending short emails to me.

atatu said:

A couple of months ago my son played a kid and beat him pretty easily, the kid did not make any bad calls. As we were leaving the facility we could see his Dad yelling at him in the parking lot for about ten minutes while the kids was trying not to cry. So a few weeks later my son played the kid again and this time he hooks my son on every close ball and some that were not even close. My son ended up losing the match as he was really thrown off. Do I blame the kid for cheating ? No, I blame the Dad for making his kid feel he has to win (a non qualified match) no matter what...

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When the parents, coaches and player put so much emphasis on the outcome (winning over losing) often this is characteristic may show up. The others are burnout, choking and emotion control issues. Not always but often. Focus on the process/journey, practicing hard, playing each point with max effort and looking for ways to improve, just works better in the long-run. Yes always striving to win is included but the other areas need to be included.

Really good thread, everyone has to play a hooker at somepointso it's good to talk about it.

I've come across some a few times but one really stands out.

It's 4-5, i'm serving in the second set up set, two break/set points ahead of me. I don't personally know the other kid, but i have seen him around and we aknowledge each other when we see one another. After i use one of my favorite 1-2 punches i start walking over to the add court for the next point. I don't look up until i'm done bouncing the ball before my serve, and when i do there's no one at the other side of the court. He is sitting on his chair, obviously starting his inbetween set break. I walk over and confront hiim on it and he dissmisses me, i confront him again after the match and he tells me this whole thing about how he really wanted a good result this tournament (blah, blah, blah.) I finally say "and" then he fesses up to calling that ball at the end of the set out. But he probably wouldn't have admitted it if he won, but still it shows something...

Sometimes if you confront people like this they feel guilty and will admit or change their ways. It doesn't always work, but it's a good option. Just make sure you do it calmly, if you press to much 1. you won't get an answer and
2. it's not worth it.

jkang909 said:

karma... what comes around, goes around

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Not in tennis.

sureshs said:

Not really. Humans do what they need to survive. When these high school students enter the workforce, knowledge of social networking and mobile apps will help them find employment. Already, there are recruiters who say they will not hire anyone who doesn't have a presence on LinkedIn. When high school students started playing computer games, we heard the same dire predictions. Today, it is a major industry, and even made use of by the military. It happened because these young guys played those games, created a market, grew up, started programming games, etc.

When I was a kid, adults were complaining about us not knowing "classical literature" and "poetry." They complained about bad handwriting, inability to write formal letters, and not finishing sentences in full. Today, they are typing on the keyboard and sending short emails to me.

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All valid points.

But, bringing it back to cheating.... are you saying that cheating is a part of what humans do to survive? No thanks (not the kind of humans I want in my my family, not for my children). Pretty sure you were not...you were probably just keeping it on the facebook tip.

Oh, and to clarify, I'm not saying facebook intelligence is necessarily worthless or bad. I'm saying it's sad that the kids know more about mobile apps than the basics of geography. But then again, there's an app for that.

Imagine the prospects of the young player who plays well plays honestly?
The job applicant who knows the basics AND is LinkedIn?
The grandmother who can weave great stories AND also tweet with her grandkids?

What's more important?

Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I'd take substance over a market created by video game 'culture'.

I don't really see the cheating thing getting that much better as you move up. My 2 college age kids both played D1 and the cheating is still there, just smoother. In the boys, they had to go to playing let serves due to all the cheating. Don't even expect the outside half of the line to get an in call. You may get that call at times, but don't expect it.

Rina said:

I concur that it is the parent's fault. Of the cheater kid. Shame on them for letting their kids do it and watch it and never say anything. For all you know they are encouraging it. There was a recent match where a mom recoreded part of and her son was up 4-1 against a high ranked player in our section, and all of a sudden the other kid starts calling tons of balls out, ends up winning first set and then the match. Her son said nothing, just got frustrated. Anyway, back in Europe, some coaches teach their players how to deal with this. Not the best way, but for those of you who care this is what they say to do. If you see the kid call good ball out, ask if you are sure, next one that you are certain was in and was called out say fine. Then the very next ball of his/hers that is in but close, call out. He'll ask if you're sure say absolutely, they say usually cheater will stop after that, and get the message that if he messes with you you are not just going to take it. They also teach kids how to point at where the ball was, make sure you see it(of course it is clay). I am not saying this is the right way or that I approve of this method.

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I must say as a junior player that I have heard this quite often from my coaches. First bad call, leave it. Second bad call, question it. Third bad call, tighten your own line calls, and make close calls in your favor, and make sure you follow this with a long stare in their direction...

And if they give you any crap about it say:

1. Give **** you get ****
2. Karma's a B!tch
3. Would you like to call a line judge? (Chronic cheaters will be reluctant to do this as it will screw up THIER bad calls...)

Donny0627 said:

I must say as a junior player that I have heard this quite often from my coaches. First bad call, leave it. Second bad call, question it. Third bad call, tighten your own line calls, and make close calls in your favor, and make sure you follow this with a long stare in their direction...

And if they give you any crap about it say:

1. Give **** you get ****
2. Karma's a B!tch
3. Would you like to call a line judge? (Chronic cheaters will be reluctant to do this as it will screw up THIER bad calls...)

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Here's a new one.

This girl my daughter was playing was double faulting quite a bit and her balls were not just a little out but usually at least a foot or more out..

so she starts questioning every call even on obviously out balls and making a big scene with a big smirk on her face

and then my daughter says go get a line judge...so she stands there for a long time with her hands on her hips and then walks to the fence and stands there for a long time and then after a couple of minutes finally goes and gets a line judge

Then tells the line judge that she should get a first serve and he agrees with her because he "interfered with play" even though at the point she left the court it was just after she had faulted and was about to do her 2nd serve.

Her whole little act was completely planned and she obviously did not even believe those balls were in herself as she was grinning and smirking and her mom says to the girl's coach "oh she isn't serving well today"

Yet everytime she faults, she makes a big fuss about it and starts complaining about bad calls.

slice bh compliment said:

All valid points.

But, bringing it back to cheating.... are you saying that cheating is a part of what humans do to survive? No thanks (not the kind of humans I want in my my family, not for my children). Pretty sure you were not...you were probably just keeping it on the facebook tip.

Oh, and to clarify, I'm not saying facebook intelligence is necessarily worthless or bad. I'm saying it's sad that the kids know more about mobile apps than the basics of geography. But then again, there's an app for that.

Imagine the prospects of the young player who plays well plays honestly?
The job applicant who knows the basics AND is LinkedIn?
The grandmother who can weave great stories AND also tweet with her grandkids?

What's more important?

Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I'd take substance over a market created by video game 'culture'.

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No, cheating is not OK. I was responding to the other stuff, about knowing where is Holland etc. There is nothing so great about knowing where Holland is, and not knowing how to play a computer game. Today, you google and get the information. Days of coloring Holland on a map and showing it to the teacher are gone. Today, ignorance of the latest technology is probably more detrimental than ignorance of Holland. When more things come up, some things have to be deemphasized. Today, a computer literacy course is required for high school graduation. That means something else went away. It is like that.

sureshs said:

No, cheating is not OK. I was responding to the other stuff, about knowing where is Holland etc. There is nothing so great about knowing where Holland is, and not knowing how to play a computer game. Today, you google and get the information. Days of coloring Holland on a map and showing it to the teacher are gone. Today, ignorance of the latest technology is probably more detrimental than ignorance of Holland. When more things come up, some things have to be deemphasized. Today, a computer literacy course is required for high school graduation. That means something else went away. It is like that.

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Well, yes and no.
I do agree with you when it comes to the importance of knowing about new technology etc.

However, I think you should still have some basic knowledge of certain topics. You don't need to know all kinds of fancy stuff, but even nowadays some general education is important. Especially Americans have the bad reputation of not knowing or caring about the rest of the world.
This can be pretty embarassing at times -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANTDkfkoBaI

I don't get it - why is it so hard to get line judges on every 1 to 2 courts at important tournaments? I mean, how many courts are running at one time in a tournament? Local players, volunteers, junior pros, high school or college players could all be used. With fees being so high, there are no resources for more judges? As consumers, entrants should demand some level of quality for their money.

How about this: Parents/coaches volunteer to line judge a match in a different age group or gender than their own kid. In turn, their kid gets a discounted entry fee. First come, first serve basis during registration until all courts are covered.

Some of you folks need to learn the simple fact that hooking calls and argueing nonsense is a tactic. It always has been and always will be used. You either learn how to deal with it or continue to let it cost you additional points matches and and cry like a baby liberal screaming .....ITS NOT FAIR!

Learn to deal with it or take up golf.

BMC9670 said:

How about this: Parents/coaches volunteer to line judge a match in a different age group or gender than their own kid. In turn, their kid gets a discounted entry fee. First come, first serve basis during registration until all courts are covered.

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Great idea!
I doubt the discounted entry fee would be implemented by usta though

sureshs said:

No, cheating is not OK. I was responding to the other stuff, about knowing where is Holland etc. There is nothing so great about knowing where Holland is, and not knowing how to play a computer game. Today, you google and get the information. Days of coloring Holland on a map and showing it to the teacher are gone. Today, ignorance of the latest technology is probably more detrimental than ignorance of Holland. When more things come up, some things have to be deemphasized. Today, a computer literacy course is required for high school graduation. That means something else went away. It is like that.

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I appreciate that. I get that it's like that....but not with basic information. The US high school kid is really at an all-time low. Do we celebrate that by being happy he can do other, cooler stuff?

I love my job. I don't have a lot of turnover, but I do enjoy hiring good people. You can bet I'm not hiring the yutz who doesn't know basics.

Kids today.....I know, I'm sounding like our parents' generation. I'm probably the one out of touch. I'll retire soon, though....so I can play even more tennis!

I just want to be sure my kids know how to write a thank-you note and find a given country on a map....and also navigate mobile apps with confidence.

Netzroller said:

Well, yes and no.
I do agree with you when it comes to the importance of knowing about new technology etc.

However, I think you should still have some basic knowledge of certain topics. You don't need to know all kinds of fancy stuff, but even nowadays some general education is important. Especially Americans have the bad reputation of not knowing or caring about the rest of the world.
This can be pretty embarassing at times -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANTDkfkoBaI

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Two issues:

It is usually the case with superpowers that they really don't care about other countries. The countries who criticize them also do the same for those smaller/less important than them.

Americans are in the spotlight. In other places too, people have only local knowledge, but if they are poor or illiterate, nobody counts them or bothers about what they know.

slice bh compliment said:

I appreciate that. I get that it's like that....but not with basic information. The US high school kid is really at an all-time low. Do we celebrate that by being happy he can do other, cooler stuff?

I love my job. I don't have a lot of turnover, but I do enjoy hiring good people. You can bet I'm not hiring the yutz who doesn't know basics.

Kids today.....I know, I'm sounding like our parents' generation. I'm probably the one out of touch. I'll retire soon, though....so I can play even more tennis!

I just want to be sure my kids know how to write a thank-you note and find a given country on a map....and also navigate mobile apps with confidence.

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Thank you notes are so yesterday. Nowadays you post on their FB wall that "yesterday was great" and be done with it.

"First president?......er, Denzelle Washington?"

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75%.....yes, 75%(!) of Oklahoma high school students don't know who the 1st U.S. president was. That's bleeped-up in any era.

And these one-trick wonders prolly wouldn't know what 'color' Geo. Washinton's [size=+1]WHITE[/size] horse was either.


Looner Sooner

Yesterday I saw a kid call a clearly in ball hit by my daughter "out" during a game of "king of the court". Now cheating during a group lesson is pretty sad.

Dedans Penthouse said:

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75%.....yes, 75%(!) of Oklahoma high school students don't know who the 1st U.S. president was. That's bleeped-up in any era.

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I have been seeing these alarming statements for years, and they don't really mean much. The studies are also often contrived. I remember Jay Leno being self righteous and asking such questions to guys on the street to embarrass them. He should be embarrassed that a harsh and sarcastic guy like him could make a career, which would not have been possible during the time of the 1st president.

What is real is that the grades and scores required to get into college are increasing year by year, and people who could get in before don't stand a chance now.

There are also studies which compare US students' performance in math and science globally and conclude that the US is 49th or something like that. What they won't tell you is that the students put up by other countries are often cherry picked from the best schools for such exams, and don't reflect the diversity of the country at all. I have seen European teams without a single girl or one of the many children of refugees there who live in poverty. I have seen Japanese representation in the same way.

Some of you guys make it seem like two missed calls means the kid is cheating.
1. If it is on the line, there is a good chance he did not see it right. If you are sprinting for a ball sometimes you just don't get to look at it the right way and see it out.
2. You might have seen it wrong yourself. You have your own bias that the opponents kid is cheating. You are just waiting for an opportunity that confirms your suspicion. What you saw just inside the line might have actually barely caught the line or even just gone out all together. Either way, a very difficult ball to see.

racket-e said:

Some of you guys make it seem like two missed calls means the kid is cheating.
1. If it is on the line, there is a good chance he did not see it right. If you are sprinting for a ball sometimes you just don't get to look at it the right way and see it out.
2. You might have seen it wrong yourself. You have your own bias that the opponents kid is cheating. You are just waiting for an opportunity that confirms your suspicion. What you saw just inside the line might have actually barely caught the line or even just gone out all together. Either way, a very difficult ball to see.

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Uh, if it's inside the line it's IN. I've played many cheaters before, it isn't just you thinking you're getting cheated, it's because you ARE.

racket-e said:

Some of you guys make it seem like two missed calls means the kid is cheating.
1. If it is on the line, there is a good chance he did not see it right. If you are sprinting for a ball sometimes you just don't get to look at it the right way and see it out.
2. You might have seen it wrong yourself. You have your own bias that the opponents kid is cheating. You are just waiting for an opportunity that confirms your suspicion. What you saw just inside the line might have actually barely caught the line or even just gone out all together. Either way, a very difficult ball to see.

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I agree. It is impossible to sit on the sidelines and really be sure that close calls are good or bad.

You can definitely tell the good sports from the cheaters and the ones with gamesmanship though.

Many times with the good sports (my daugther included) balls that I thought were out but close are not called out because the player is not sure.

With the bad sports and gamesmanship players, there are all kinds of little side games and angles being played that have nothing to do with the actual game of tennis (this is especially true amongst the girls).

What I have observed with the younger juniors is some of these kids are known to cheat and these are not close line calls this is obvious take as many points as they can get until the other kid gets a line judge. These less experienced kids get flat out bullied until they learn how to stand up for themselves or learn to cheat and bully the next group of inexperienced kids. I have literally sat next to a dad and have him tell me how when his kid started tournaments his opponent moved the score card at from 1-0 to 3-1 basically just giving himself 2 games. It was not the next set that this very kid did the same thing to my son and I asked the dad sitting next to me " you going to let that happen" he just shrugged his shoulders and said they will figure it out. This was a 10 and under rookie tournament. I feel these kids should have help and supervision at a 10 and under "rookie" level tournament Guidance to play fair. I understand that these kids who cheat in the 10s will not last long cheating in the 12s. I think it will also prepare these other kids to stand up for themselves not only in tennis but in life. it is just frustrating to watch, and then the parents who let it happen to win at all cost.

Brocolt said:

What I have observed with the younger juniors is some of these kids are known to cheat and these are not close line calls this is obvious take as many points as they can get until the other kid gets a line judge. These less experienced kids get flat out bullied until they learn how to stand up for themselves or learn to cheat and bully the next group of inexperienced kids. I have literally sat next to a dad and have him tell me how when his kid started tournaments his opponent moved the score card at from 1-0 to 3-1 basically just giving himself 2 games. It was not the next set that this very kid did the same thing to my son and I asked the dad sitting next to me " you going to let that happen" he just shrugged his shoulders and said they will figure it out. This was a 10 and under rookie tournament. I feel these kids should have help and supervision at a 10 and under "rookie" level tournament Guidance to play fair. I understand that these kids who cheat in the 10s will not last long cheating in the 12s. I think it will also prepare these other kids to stand up for themselves not only in tennis but in life. it is just frustrating to watch, and then the parents who let it happen to win at all cost.

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I agree with you. I saw some really bad behavior at our Southern qualifying tournament last week especially with the little kids.

The referees should be close by and supervising those matches so the bad habits never start.

Only one solution - leave racquet on the court and call the ref. Do not wait to two of three times.
There is nothing wrong about calling the ref.
However calling the ref does not solve all the problems. Players still responsible for calls and anything else what happens on the court. The ref. can only help to find the truth but he is not going to be searching for the one.

I agree with Brocult re: 10s needing guidance to play fair. My daughter had to play up into the 12s and when it was her opponents turn to serve she'd often add unearned points to her score. Luckily my daughter caught on and corrected her.

Something interesting happened at my son's match recently. He was playing a match and there were other matches going on around them from different age brackets. My son was playing a kid who challenges every 3rd call. My son used to back down and give the kid the points in the past as he was always intimidated by him. He started standing up to the kid and holding his ground so this kid kept getting louder.

So, the boys 18s match was going on 2 courts away and one of the boys yells over to my son's court: "Hey, can you stop screaming over there? We're all trying to play some tennis over here. Can you please just let us play some tennis and keep it down? Thanks."

I was so pleased to see an older boy setting an example for the younger boys and for stepping up to the plate. It was refreshing. Granted, he was yelling to my son's court and my son got caught up in the yelling back at the kid, but I pointed out to my son that there's a lesson to be learned about how to behave on court. My son said, "hey, I would have kept it down if he would have just backed off." I reminded him that he could have gotten a ref over and over again, if that's what it takes. Unfortunately, he waited too long and at the wrong times and wound up losing in a 3rd set. Lesson learned.

There are issues regarding the parents with this match, too, and I should have been sitting right up on the court but I didn't because I like to let him fight his own battles out there. Unfortunately, he told me that the dad was talking to him from behind the fence and intimidating him saying, "Come on, you know that was in.", etc. Also, when he walked off court the mom said something derogatory to my son under her breath and my kid heard her. He was crying when he picked up his trophy more because of what she said, than from actually losing the match. It's sad that there are parents out there who lack class.

^The classless parents actually think they are doing something good for their kids! So sad.

andromeda said:

Something interesting happened at my son's match recently. He was playing a match and there were other matches going on around them from different age brackets. My son was playing a kid who challenges every 3rd call. My son used to back down and give the kid the points in the past as he was always intimidated by him. He started standing up to the kid and holding his ground so this kid kept getting louder.

So, the boys 18s match was going on 2 courts away and one of the boys yells over to my son's court: "Hey, can you stop screaming over there? We're all trying to play some tennis over here. Can you please just let us play some tennis and keep it down? Thanks."

I was so pleased to see an older boy setting an example for the younger boys and for stepping up to the plate. It was refreshing. Granted, he was yelling to my son's court and my son got caught up in the yelling back at the kid, but I pointed out to my son that there's a lesson to be learned about how to behave on court. My son said, "hey, I would have kept it down if he would have just backed off." I reminded him that he could have gotten a ref over and over again, if that's what it takes. Unfortunately, he waited too long and at the wrong times and wound up losing in a 3rd set. Lesson learned.

There are issues regarding the parents with this match, too, and I should have been sitting right up on the court but I didn't because I like to let him fight his own battles out there. Unfortunately, he told me that the dad was talking to him from behind the fence and intimidating him saying, "Come on, you know that was in.", etc. Also, when he walked off court the mom said something derogatory to my son under her breath and my kid heard her. He was crying when he picked up his trophy more because of what she said, than from actually losing the match. It's sad that there are parents out there who lack class.

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I would not leave the court your a parent first and protecting your child comes first, if the other parent said something bad to your kid then she is low enough in class to spit in her face ! Then go out to lunch and ask your son " did you learn anything today"?