If Djokovic doesn't win the WTF

timnz · Sep 22, 2011

(I'm going to get blasted for this - but what the heck......)

I believe that if Djokovic doesn't win the WTF then his 2011 is inferior to Federer's 2004, 2006 and 2007. Reason: In each of those seasons Federer won 4 out of the 5 top events, whereas Djokovic would have won only 3 out of the top 5 events. I say that even if Djokovic's winning %age is better (actually that is far from established - he is 3 down, he could be 4 down before the end of the year), because winning the top events is more important than winning %age. I guess it would come down to people's views on the relative prestige of the WTF. I believe it is far above the Masters 1000 events and only a tad less than slams.

What do people think?

CDestroyer · Sep 22, 2011

Then why hasn't Fed even been mentioned when compared to Johnny Mac as having the best season yet?

Fed had more losses in all of those years.

Cup8489 · Sep 22, 2011

I think if he fails to win it, it might be about even with Federer's 2006. Granted, Djokovic is at 10(?) titles this year, 3 majors and 5(!) Masters Events. Assuming he doesnt win Bercy or WTF (big assumption on Bercy, less so on WTF), and finishes with less than 12 titles, I'd say the extra masters and setting the record for first man to win 5 in a CY brings it about even.

If he does win WTF, it's better.

timnz · Sep 22, 2011

winning %age vs winning the top titles

CDestroyer said:
Then why hasn't Fed even been mentioned when compared to Johnny Mac as having the best season yet?

Fed had more losses in all of those years.

Again, people can get overly focused on winning %ages over an against winning the top titles. Laver's 1969 is considered by most to be superior to all of these seasons but he had a far lower winning %age.

Cup8489 · Sep 22, 2011

CDestroyer said:
Then why hasn't Fed even been mentioned when compared to Johnny Mac as having the best season yet?

Fed had more losses in all of those years.

It's not all about W/L. Nadal has a better Major final record (10/4), but I think he'd trade in a moment for Federer's 16/7.

Besides, Federer won 10 titles in 2005 and 12 in 2006, and was 92-5 in 2006. No matter how you look at it, 2006 was incredible. Djokovic is still 28 wins shy of that year, and he may not break 85. Plus, Federer played a few events while injured, and I believe two of those losses were while not 100% (not making an excuse, just thinking that if Djokovic played events when injured he might not have only 2 losses this season, and that could make the difference)

DjokovicForTheWin · Sep 22, 2011

Alas I agree with the OP. It is crucial that Djokovic win the 5th biggest prize of the year. Especially considering that you don't get a free ride to the quarters facing nobodies along the way.

timnz · Sep 22, 2011

4th or 5th?

DjokovicForTheWin said:
Alas I agree with the OP. It is crucial that Djokovic win the 4th biggest prize of the year. Especially considering that you don't get a free ride to the quarters facing nobodies along the way.

I agree about the WTF - but the 4th biggest - isn't it the 5th biggest?

veroniquem · Sep 22, 2011

Actually, if Djoko wins either of the 3 big remaining events, he will have done better than any of Fed's seasons. Right now, he's about equal. The maximum # of slam/masters won in a season is 8 accomplished by Fed in 2006.
Djoko is currently at 8 as well. So, if he wins 1 more, he'll break that record.
ETA: zagor has a good argument about surfaces. In 2006, Fed won 0 title on clay whether big or small.

djokovic2008 · Sep 22, 2011

Cup8489 said:
It's not all about W/L. Nadal has a better Major final record (10/4), but I think he'd trade in a moment for Federer's 16/7.

Besides, Federer won 10 titles in 2005 and 12 in 2006, and was 92-5 in 2006. No matter how you look at it, 2006 was incredible. Djokovic is still 28 wins shy of that year, and he may not break 85. Plus, Federer played a few events while injured, and I believe two of those losses were while not 100% (not making an excuse, just thinking that if Djokovic played events when injured he might not have only 2 losses this season, and that could make the difference)

Djokovic had REAL competition in nadal fed etc not roddick Hewitt etc what he has done is far more Impressive.

zagor · Sep 22, 2011

What Novak has going for him is that he won a big tournament on every surface there is this year,he also won more masters titles than Fed (or anyone else for that matter) did in 2006 and had that insane streak going for him so I'll personally give it to him even if he doesn't win WTF.

You could argue it both ways though, Fed played almost 100 matches in 2006, reached 4 slam finals, reached a final of every tournament save one ( Novak so far did the same I think), won WTF.

Both of those years are very impressive but as I said I'd still pick Novak's year.

DjokovicForTheWin · Sep 22, 2011

timnz said:
I agree about the WTF - but the 4th biggest - isn't it the 5th biggest?

Oui, my bad

syc23 · Sep 22, 2011

Djokovic's real mission is to achieve 16 GS before he can even be mentioned in the same sentence as Federer when talking about the greatest tennis players ever.

Sure, this season has been exceptional but it would be meaningless if he fails to back it up during the course of next 2-3 seasons.

I don't think it's beyond Novak to win WTF this year, I have a feeling Federer or Murray will win this year.

DjokovicForTheWin · Sep 22, 2011

zagor said:
What Novak has going for him is that he won a big tournament on every surface there is this year,he also won more masters titles than Fed (or anyone else for that matter) did in 2006 and had that insane streak going for him so I'll personally give it to him even if he doesn't win WTF.

You could argue it both ways though, Fed played almost 100 matches in 2006, reached 4 slam finals, reached a final of every tournament save one ( Novak so far did the same I think), won WTF.

Both of those years are very impressive but as I said I'd still pick Novak's year.

Good points, although I think Djoker needs the WTF. I think it will boil down to the W/L record. After all, isn't that the only reason Mac's record gets mentioned again and again? Best winning pct. If Djoker can keep it at 3 losses, he gets the nod. If it's 4 or more losses, Fed gets the nod.

TheMagicianOfPrecision · Sep 22, 2011

I dont feel threatened by Djokovic`s 2011 as a Fed fan, the important thing is that Djoker keeps stoping Nadal from winning more GS.

I also hope that Djokovic can tie Nadals 10 GS, that would be awesome.

jackson vile · Sep 22, 2011

Cup8489 said:
I think if he fails to win it, it might be about even with Federer's 2006. Granted, Djokovic is at 10(?) titles this year, 3 majors and 5(!) Masters Events. Assuming he doesnt win Bercy or WTF (big assumption on Bercy, less so on WTF), and finishes with less than 12 titles, I'd say the extra masters and setting the record for first man to win 5 in a CY brings it about even.

If he does win WTF, it's better.

Again, Cup is rather reasonable. We are talking overall titles here, where as others are speaking of pure win percentage. Both are correct and I think they are 2 separate arguments.

As for WTF, IMO it is above a masters but still far below a Major. May have been different in the past though? However, you can't compare a best out of 3 to best out of 5.

Also we must consider who Novak has had to defeat in order to win his titles.

That is what makes Novak's season already superior IMO.

zagor · Sep 22, 2011

DjokovicForTheWin said:
Good points, although I think Djoker needs the WTF. I think it will boil down to the W/L record. After all, isn't that the only reason Mac's record gets mentioned again and again? Best winning pct. If Djoker can keep it at 3 losses, he gets the nod. If it's 4 or more losses, Fed gets the nod.

Well, W/L record isn't that crucial for me, I'd still take Mac's season over both Fed's 2006 and Novak's 2011 because he dominated the doubles scene along with the singles, something which is truly exceptional.

And as for Novak and Fed while I can see arguments for each side, even if Novak doesn't win a tourney till the end of the year I'd still take his year for the already mostly mentioned reasons:

-Amazing win streak, he didn't lose a match for almost half of the season.

-Major titles on every surface, Fed didn't win a masters on clay in 2006, Novak won two.

-Same number of slams but more masters title wins.

Tony48 · Sep 22, 2011

Djokovic won 5 STRAIGHT Masters this year, across all surfaces, beating the World No. 1 four times. Nobody has even won 5 in a single season, let alone consecutively. Had Federer done this, it would be one of the most celebrated achievements in tennis history. But since he didn't, who cares, right? It all comes down to what FEDERER did or didn't do....and since Federer won the WTF and not 5 other Masters, that is measuring stick that we use to evaluate Djokovic's season.

jackson vile · Sep 22, 2011

Tony48 said:
Djokovic won 5 STRAIGHT Masters this year, across all surfaces, beating the World No. 1 four times. Nobody has even won 5 in a single season, let alone consecutively. Had Federer done this, it would be one of the most celebrated achievements in tennis history. But since he didn't, who cares, right? It all comes down to what FEDERER did or didn't do....and since Federer won the WTF and not 5 other Masters, that is measuring stick that we use to evaluate Djokovic's season.

LOL, you go Tony, you go!

bluescreen · Sep 22, 2011

CDestroyer said:
Then why hasn't Fed even been mentioned when compared to Johnny Mac as having the best season yet?

Fed had more losses in all of those years.

He gets mentioned all the time...

GOAT BAAH!!! · Sep 22, 2011

..If he doesn't clinch it then his 2011 will still be in contention for top 2 or 3 seasons of all time,depending on who you ask and how they view "eras" but if he closes the WTF and takes another Masters shield along the way then it will undisputedly be the greatest season in Tennis history...

zagor · Sep 22, 2011

GOAT BAAH!!! said:
..If he doesn't clinch it then his 2011 will still be in contention for top 2 or 3 seasons of all time,depending on who you ask and how they view "eras" but if he closes the WTF and takes another Masters shield along the way then it will undisputedly be the greatest season in Tennis history...

What about Laver's Calendar Grand Slams? Extremely hard to argue against those.

Cup8489 · Sep 22, 2011

zagor said:
What about Laver's Calendar Grand Slams? Extremely hard to argue against those.

I nearly quoted him to say the same thing; glad I didn't, you beat me to it

Fedalfan · Sep 22, 2011

CDestroyer said:
Then why hasn't Fed even been mentioned when compared to Johnny Mac as having the best season yet?

Fed had more losses in all of those years.

For one, Fed did not have the "streak". Djoko spent first half of the year unbeaten, regardless of surface of quality of events, against all kinds of opposition.

TennisFan3 · Sep 23, 2011

Whatever the records say, as a matter of perception, Djokovic just looks a little more dominant than even Fed did in 2006 (or any of his peak yrs). Fed was always vulnerable to Nadal on clay (and sometimes outside), but Djoko has no discernible weakness against any player.

Then also, if you think about it, Djoko has had ONLY 1 proper loss this yr: to Federer in Roland Garros. He was beaten by Murray in Cincy, but he retired. And Delpo in Davis Cup was a match he shouldn't have played in the first place.

Finally Djoko has 5 consecutive masters on different surfaces, which are unprecedented. I dunno, but it almost feels like a big thing when someone gets a set off Djoko. I just didn't feel Fed to be as dominant.

So..even if Djoko doesn't win anything else this yr - I think Djoko's 2011 is the greatest season in tennis history after Rod Laver's CYGS yrs.. The question, now is, whether someone will step up in 2012 as a credible challenger? I have high hopes from Del Potro and Murray (Especially Delpo)..

BULLZ1LLA · Sep 23, 2011

CDestroyer said:
Then why hasn't Fed even been mentioned when compared to Johnny Mac as having the best season yet?

Fed had more losses in all of those years.

(Mac isn't even a top 5 player, nobody cares about his record. It was never brought up in mainstream society until this year. Also, what you actually win is more important than how many matches you win. Sebian Open is useless....)

BULLZ1LLA · Sep 23, 2011

(The record Djokovic would really make waves with is Nadal's record: only player ever to win 3 slams on 3 completely different surfaces in a calendar year; and only player in last 42 years to win RG, Wim, USO in calendar year)

roysid · Sep 23, 2011

If Djokovic wins WTF and 12 plus tournaments(close to 90 match wins) then his season is better than Fed's 2006. Else not.

cocolate · Sep 23, 2011

Nadal will beat Djokovic.period.

Telepatic · Sep 23, 2011

If he doesn't win WTF, I say let's put one big fat asterisk over his 2011.

Talker · Sep 23, 2011

Djokovic needs the WTF, Fed made all the finals at slams also.
There's also a chance of losing 3 matches at the WTF.
Right now, overall, Djokovic is ahead a little IMO.

Wait till the years over.

celoft · Sep 23, 2011

Talker said:
Djokovic needs the WTF, Fed made all the finals at slams also.

I concur.....

BULLZ1LLA · Sep 23, 2011

(Nadal needs World Tour Finals title more than Djokovic needs it. Nadal is on the verge of completing all the big titles, the 4 slams, Olympic Singles Gold, World Tour Finals is next most prestigious event. Doesn't really matter what Djokovic wins this year, it won't elevate him to Federer/Nadal level in terms of career achievements)

srinrajesh · Sep 23, 2011

Tony48 said:
Djokovic won 5 STRAIGHT Masters this year, across all surfaces, beating the World No. 1 four times. Nobody has even won 5 in a single season, let alone consecutively. Had Federer done this, it would be one of the most celebrated achievements in tennis history. But since he didn't, who cares, right? It all comes down to what FEDERER did or didn't do....and since Federer won the WTF and not 5 other Masters, that is measuring stick that we use to evaluate Djokovic's season.

Actually he only won three in a row as he missed Monte carlo.. So the two masters in March . 2 on clay and one in Canada were the consecutive ones.

Clarky21 · Sep 23, 2011

Impossible. He will win it. It is inevitable.

srinrajesh · Sep 23, 2011

BULLZ1LLA said:
(The record Djokovic would really make waves with is Nadal's record: only player ever to win 3 slams on 3 completely different surfaces in a calendar year; and only player in last 42 years to win RG, Wim, USO in calendar year)

Even more incredible is the fact that he won the 3 slams in a row in three different surfaces. I believe he is the only player in history of tennis to do so..

Agassifan · Sep 23, 2011

jackson vile said:
Also we must consider who Novak has had to defeat in order to win his titles.

Beating Old man Fed (barely) and pansy Rafa isn't that much greater of an achievement beating Safin, Roddick, Nalby, Hewitt and young Rafa. Don't care about Bercy and crap, but he definitely has to win the WTF to match Roger.

Remember, Rog won 3 out of 4 and made the final in the other.

Nathaniel_Near · Sep 23, 2011

People say why wasn't Fed talked about as having a season as good as mac's 84 but hang on a second, I'm SURE he was talked about that way, and as possibly going on to have the best seasons of all time since 1969. Do people really forget so quickly or do they just make blind assumptions?

BTW I agree - especially with the surfaces more homogeneous than ever - that Smokin' Djo needs to win WTF to have a year as good as Roger's best and if he does that and doesn't lose another match or loses at most 4 then it's better even though he didn't get to RG Final, because of his record vs the top 5.

CDestroyer · Sep 23, 2011

cocolate said:
Nadal will beat Djokovic.period.

TW mods will beat you period.

Clarky21 · Sep 23, 2011

Agassifan said:
Beating Old man Fed (barely) and pansy Rafa isn't that much greater of an achievement beating Safin, Roddick, Nalby, Hewitt and young Rafa. Don't care about Bercy and crap, but he definitely has to win the WTF to match Roger.

Remember, Rog won 3 out of 4 and made the final in the other.

Exactly. Cvac has had it easy this year since the competition has been so pathetic. Especially since at least the second half of the year he has not played nearly as well as he did at the start. He is beatable if people would stop p*ssing their pants against him.

Nathaniel_Near · Sep 23, 2011

Clarky21 said:
Exactly. Cvac has had it easy this year since the competition has been so pathetic. Especially since at least the second half of the year he has not played nearly as well as he did at the start. He is beatable if people would stop p*ssing their pants against him.

Next year should hopefully see Del Potro rise again and Murray continue to improve his mentality in the latter stages of the Majors.

BTW people were saying the same things for Nadal's 3 Major winning year of 2010 (that his comp. was bull).

CDestroyer · Sep 23, 2011

Then he still kicked Rafas butt 6 times in one year.:twisted:

pmerk34 · Sep 23, 2011

timnz said:
(I'm going to get blasted for this - but what the heck......)

I believe that if Djokovic doesn't win the WTF then his 2011 is inferior to Federer's 2004, 2006 and 2007. Reason: In each of those seasons Federer won 4 out of the 5 top events, whereas Djokovic would have won only 3 out of the top 5 events. I say that even if Djokovic's winning %age is better (actually that is far from established - he is 3 down, he could be 4 down before the end of the year), because winning the top events is more important than winning %age. I guess it would come down to people's views on the relative prestige of the WTF. I believe it is far above the Masters 1000 events and only a tad less than slams.

What do people think?

I think his winning streak was an awesome achievement

srinrajesh · Sep 23, 2011

Talker said:
Djokovic needs the WTF, Fed made all the finals at slams also.
There's also a chance of losing 3 matches at the WTF.
Right now, overall, Djokovic is ahead a little IMO.

Wait till the years over.

Yes i agree we should wait for year end but would put djoker higher than Fed's 2006 because of better competition he faced in the slams particularly and his unbeaten start to the year..
I feel he will cleverly pull out of certain events so that he will have very few losses in the year (He did so at Monaco,Queens, Washington earlier..)

Clarky21 · Sep 23, 2011

srinrajesh said:
Yes i agree we should wait for year end but would put djoker higher than Fed's 2006 because of better competition he faced in the slams particularly and his unbeaten start to the year..
I feel he will cleverly pull out of certain events so that he will have very few losses in the year (He did so at Monaco,Queens, Washington earlier..)

Better competition he faced in slams? Who would that be? His competition has been a joke all year long,and so have his draws. Look at his Wimby draw. How about his RG draw up until Fed? No way has his competition been tougher.

Tammo · Sep 23, 2011

Clarky21 said:
Better competition he faced in slams? Who would that be? His competition has been a joke all year long,and so have his draws. Look at his Wimby draw. How about his RG draw up until Fed? No way has his competition been tougher.

Wimby had Baghdatis in the 3rd round, and IMO that was a tough one for Djok. Tsonga, who had been playing amazing grasscourt tennis in the semis. Tomic played well in the quarters also. RG gave him JMDP who took him to four in the 3rd round, and Gasquet in the fourth. Djokovic just made the competition look easy.

Clarky21 · Sep 23, 2011

Tammo said:
Wimby had Baghdatis in the 3rd round, and IMO that was a tough one for Djok. Tsonga, who had been playing amazing grasscourt tennis in the semis. Tomic played well in the quarters also. RG gave him JMDP who took him to four in the 3rd round, and Gasquet in the fourth. Djokovic just made the competition look easy.

Bs. He didn't even play well all through Wimbledon,and his draws prove it. Baggy took a set from him,Tomic,and Tsonga. How did he make the competition look easy losing sets to those guys? Especially Baggy and Tomic. That draw was laughable,and so was his RG draw. He has had it easy all year long. Compare his draw at Wimby to that of Nadal's and you tell me who had the tougher draw. It's no contest who did,and it was not Cvac.

TennisFan3 · Sep 23, 2011

Clarky21 said:
Bs. He didn't even play well all through Wimbledon,and his draws prove it. Baggy took a set from him,Tomic,and Tsonga. How did he make the competition look easy losing sets to those guys? Especially Baggy and Tomic. That draw was laughable,and so was his RG draw. He has had it easy all year long. Compare his draw at Wimby to that of Nadal's and you tell me who had the tougher draw. It's no contest who did,and it was not Cvac.

Yeah but Djoko owns Nadal recently. As I said before, Djoko might have been beaten by a decent grass court player in Wimbledon, because to me he didn't look all that great. His level was nowhere to what it was in RG, AO and UsOpen. But Nadal is plagued by such big matchup issues against Djokovic, that all the surface advantages were neutralized, and frankly Rafa should have done much better. The could play on ice right now, and Nadal would still find a way to lose I guess..

Clarky21 · Sep 23, 2011

TennisFan3 said:
Yeah but Djoko owns Nadal recently. As I said before, Djoko might have been beaten by a decent grass court player in Wimbledon, because to me he didn't look all that great. His level was nowhere to what it was in RG, AO and UsOpen. But Nadal is plagued by such big matchup issues against Djokovic, that all the surface advantages were neutralized, and frankly Rafa should have done much better. The could play on ice right now, and Nadal would still find a way to lose I guess..

I agree. If Nadal had played like he did last year in that final I think he would have won. Cvac is still not that great on grass,and I just cannot understand why Nadal went out there with no confidence in himself after being a 2 time Wimby champ while Cvac had never even made a final there. Toni is a big part of why he does not believe in himself. Nadal needs a new coach badly.

single_handed_champion · Sep 23, 2011

TennisFan3 said:
Whatever the records say, as a matter of perception, Djokovic just looks a little more dominant than even Fed did in 2006 (or any of his peak yrs). Fed was always vulnerable to Nadal on clay (and sometimes outside), but Djoko has no discernible weakness against any player.

Then also, if you think about it, Djoko has had ONLY 1 proper loss this yr: to Federer in Roland Garros. He was beaten by Murray in Cincy, but he retired. And Delpo in Davis Cup was a match he shouldn't have played in the first place.

Finally Djoko has 5 consecutive masters on different surfaces, which are unprecedented. I dunno, but it almost feels like a big thing when someone gets a set off Djoko. I just didn't feel Fed to be as dominant.

So..even if Djoko doesn't win anything else this yr - I think Djoko's 2011 is the greatest season in tennis history after Rod Laver's CYGS yrs.. The question, now is, whether someone will step up in 2012 as a credible challenger? I have high hopes from Del Potro and Murray (Especially Delpo)..

Wow, incredible how far we've come in our estimation of JesusFed. People used to shudder when he lost games, let alone sets (off of clay). Of course, now he's a step slower and hitting forehands that we expect James Blake to hit and losing matches with MPs on his serve, it must be that he was never that good.

TennisFan3 · Sep 23, 2011

Clarky21 said:
Toni is a big part of why he does not believe in himself. Nadal needs a new coach badly.

Toni made a statement to Spanish press saying that he will NOT quit by the end of this year (according to rumors) and he's pretty sure that he will remain Nadal's only coach till the end of Nadal's career...

If Djokovic doesn't win the WTF

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