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IMO the wrist is the most important part of the body. The wrist defines everything: type of FH (flat, TS, etc), power, ball’s direction, and so on.
BTW: can anyone post a link that works?
If we use semiwestern/western grip, we are forced to use wrist motion from maximum wrist radial deviation in direction of wrist ulnar deviation.Yeah, but it's a pain in the [wrist] to develop injury-free wrist technique...
Yes, it looks like Becker is using wrong terminology, maybe because he is German.If you look at Boris' demonstration around 4:45 where he says "accelerate with your wrist", it's pretty clear what he is actually showing is pronation involving the whole arm (forearm and upper arm). That said, I agree that the importance of the wrist cannot be overstated - among other things, it is a critical control element that conveys power to the racquet. The thing I disagree with, for reasons that we have discussed many times previously, is that the wrist generates significant power with its own internal torque generating mechanism.
You disagree that the wrist can generates significant power with its own internal torque generating mechanism. It means you disagree not only with me but also with Bruce Elliot data about wrist contribution (20%) to ball’s speed in case of TS FH. In case of flat FH it could be even more (40%-60%).
Can you explain why pros bend the wrist back if it doesn’t produces any power? Definitely it causes a lot of problem with control. Why they do not keep the wrist in line with forearm? This could be much more repeatable, reliable etc FH.
Well, I could hit a forehand using only my wrist - it would contribute 100% in that case! It would probably not go over the net, though.
Seriously, I don't know how to read those numbers. 20% for TS FH - well, maybe, although my unscientific gut says it's got to be less than that. 40%-60% for flat FH - my gut just rebels at that thought!
Toly, I don't know where to even begin to answer that question, so let me respond with a question. When you see a player's wrist flexing, either forward or towards the ulnar side or a combination of both, why do you not believe that it is doing so as a release mechanism? That the hand was accelerated using the big muscles, and either a slowing down or change of direction of the arm is causing the wrist to release? As a field exercise, try powering shots with wrist only and see how (in)consistent your shots are. My opinion is that most of the internal torque generated by the wrist *must* go into control. As a side effect, there will be some power enhancement, of course, albeit relatively smaller in comparison to the contributions of the bigger muscles.
Even for spin production, I believe the big muscles that are used to lift up the racquet head provide the most power, and most of the ulnar to radial movement is a release. Your calculations all show the amount of movement the wrist joint provides in relation to other joints. I agree with that. How can you definitively say that this movement is powered by the wrist flexors, and is not a release?
To provide wrist release, all others parts of our body, especially the arm motion around shoulder and shoulder internal rotation (bend elbow FH), should slow down significantly in forward direction. In reality, the arm and its parts motions usually accelerate before impact.
The motions which change direction can increase the racquet speed in its own direction only, which is not forward direction. Thus, they would be useless for forward ball’s speed and forward wrist release.
One of the most effective, but useless, forward wrist release technique I described in post http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?p=5477462#post5477462.
Oscar Wegner even suggested to pull racquet’s handle backward, but wasn’t able to explain how to do that.
About this motion see pleas http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?p=6029956#post6029956.Agree Toly ...we would spend more words about internal rotation of the upper-arm into shoulder joint .. it makes really a great difference in terms of power..
... Can you explain why pros bend the wrist back as much as possible if it doesn’t produce any power? Definitely it causes a lot of problems with control. Why don't they keep the wrist in line with forearm? This could be much more repeatable, reliable etc FH.
Yes, it looks like Becker is using wrong terminology, maybe because he is German.
You disagree that the wrist can generate significant power with its own internal torque generating mechanism. It means you disagree not only with me, but also with Bruce Elliot data about wrist contribution (20%) to ball’s speed in case of TS FH. In case of flat FH it could be even more (40%-60%).
Can you explain why pros bend the wrist back as much as possible if it doesn’t produce any power? Definitely it causes a lot of problems with control. Why don't they keep the wrist in line with forearm? This could be much more repeatable, reliable etc FH.
Federer usually lays the wrist back as much as possible. With straight arm, he cannot use internal shoulder rotation to produce additional ball’s speed, which contributes 40% in case of bend elbow TS FH. Thus, he practically always has to apply “crazy” active wrist action. BTW, his control and consistency are not so bad.This is simply not true. While Federer and others may lay the wrist back quite a bit (wrist extension), not all do. Look at the wrist extension of Becker, Blake and others. Their wrist extension and subsequent flexion is very mild, yet these players can still generate decent spin and pace on the FH.
As mentioned by others, the wrist action that Boris is referring to is primarily forearm pronation -- which is not really a wrist articulation at all. He may very well be employing radial/ulnar deviation, but I do not believe that this is what he is talking about either.
While some players can employ more wrist action that others, I do not believe that an exaggerated wrist action is an absolute must to generate power or spin for all players. It is fine for those who can employ it and still maintain a good measure of control/consistency, but I would not insist that it is a requirement for all players.
I would be more inclined to point out the position or orientation of the racket head rather than the actions of the wrist when teaching the FH, serve or other strokes.
Do the players who bend their wrist back uncock it to contact?
If it is still bend back it doesn't supply power. could this just be to hit the ball further out front?
There is something wrong with Vic Braden & Andy Fitzell video about Federer FH. When I analyze it frame by frame, there is no constant elapsed time between consecutive frames, especially when Federer begins fast extreme actions.I think SA has it most right, but comments are over the place here.
Toly, I may be misunderstanding you, but IMO it would help you to look at the stroke from above and watch the hand as it starts back in before contact. There is a good APAS vid of Fed on the Fh showing clearly how the hand starts to pull back towards mid line prior to contact. If you lay the racket back with most any grip, swing out towards the ball in slo mo with your hand dragging the racket head, then just prior to contact, start the hand back in...
then the racket head will extend on out to the contact due to the hand position and some centrifugal force. (Swing at normal speed for the centrifugal aspect) The pull back of the hand causes the hand to turn the racket head out without wrist movement. No requirement to actively do anything with the wrist but keep things steady.
It gives the illusion of wrist action that you seem to be seeing from these ground level pics and vids. IMO there is some action here much like a cam where you have a flatter section of rotation, the at a point it becomes accelerated due to the change of shape caused by the hand returning back.
Federer usually lays the wrist back as much as possible. With straight arm, he cannot use internal shoulder rotation to produce additional ball’s speed, which contributes 40% in case of bend elbow TS FH. Thus, he practically always has to apply “crazy” active wrist action. BTW, his control and consistency are not so bad.
In case of band elbow FH, pros usually don’t want so “crazy” wrist activity, but anyway they are using it actively. There are no exceptions.
Becker and Blake also apply active wrist actions, especially Becker...
Yes, it looks like Becker is using wrong terminology, maybe because he is German.
You disagree that the wrist can generate significant power with its own internal torque generating mechanism. It means you disagree not only with me, but also with Bruce Elliot data about wrist contribution (20%) to ball’s speed in case of TS FH. In case of flat FH it could be even more (40%-60%).
Can you explain why pros bend the wrist back as much as possible if it doesn’t produce any power? Definitely it causes a lot of problems with control. Why don't they keep the wrist in line with forearm? This could be much more repeatable, reliable etc FH.
Can you please read all my post in thread http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=395364? Then we continue this discussion.Previously, it appeared that you were implying that all pros laid the wrist back as much as possible. My point was that many do not lay it back to the extent that Fed does. I do not see Blake or Becker with as much wrist extension at all. On some FH shots they appear to have more extension than other of their FH shots but never to the extreme seen with Fed's FHs.
In looking at the video referenced by the OP, most of Becker's FHs do not appear to have all that much wrist extension or wrist action. Yes, there is possibly some wrist action, but not as much as you would have us believe. The one exception is the chest-high FH, much like the one shown in your pictures above. However, at the point in the vid when he speaks of wrist action, he appears to employ very little or moderate wrist action and, in fact, primarily exhibits forearm pronation.
On many FH shots of Blake, I do not see much wrist action either. Blake has hit some of the biggest FHs in the game -- he might even have a record of 125 mph (in the 2011 US Open). In the video below, he does lay it back quite a bit (moreso than some other vids of him that I've seen). However, even with this wrist extension, I am not seeing much of a wrist release until well after the ball has left his strings.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5l6NiQ1Upg
While Federer does employ a considerable wrist extension, I still do not see this "crazy" active wrist action of which you speak. There might be a bit of wrist release prior to contact but his wrist is still laid back quite a bit at impact.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmhvKafCYsk
As 5263 indicates above, much of the perceived wrist action (wrist release) may be an illusion. This appears to be especially true with the more extreme FH grips.
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How are pros able to change the lay back angle if the wrist is in a passive state?Pros don't actively bend the wrist back. The forward movement of the hip, shoulders and then arm, along with inertia of the racquet, cause the relaxed and tension free forearm to suppinate and the racquet head to drop back. Federer, who uses an Eastern grip, does this as well as anyone. Laver, Okker and Nastase did the same thing with Continental grips.
How are pros able to change the lay back angle if the wrist is in a passive state?
Pros don't actively bend the wrist back. The forward movement of the hip, shoulders and then arm, along with inertia of the racquet, cause the relaxed and tension free forearm to suppinate and the racquet head to drop back. Federer, who uses an Eastern grip, does this as well as anyone. Laver, Okker and Nastase did the same thing with Continental grips.
The racket is moving back, meanwhile, the forearm is moving forward, keep a relax wrist it will lay back by itself. Nick B. called Pulling out the slot.How are pros able to change the lay back angle if the wrist is in a passive state?
Bit the hell out of me. All of us want to lack back max.I will clarify my question. How are pros able to change the lay back angle by a certain number of degrees, if the wrist is in a passive state?
For example, first time pro wants to bend back the wrist just 45°, then 60°, then 0°, and so on.
Please read carefully post #30!!!Bit the hell out of me. All of us want to lack back max.
Do you have anything to think about more?
I will clarify my question. How are pros able to change the lay back angle by a certain number of degrees, if the wrist is in a passive state?
For example, first time pro wants to bend back the wrist just 45°, then 60°, then 0°, and so on.
How are pros able to change the lay back angle if the wrist is in a passive state?
Can you please read all my post in thread http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=395364? Then we continue this discussion.
Sorry, but I just cannot repeat the same things over and over again.
There is quote from your post #30,Don't know if the wrist is completely passive with Federer's layback but, for the most part, it is. If one were to actively lay the wrist back it would likely be seen as the wrist be flipped back (to forcefully achieve that wrist extension). I've seen quite a few junior players do this, particularly some fairly high-level females. I cringe every time I see this active wrist extension. You will not see very many, if any, elite players doing this.
Limpinhitter answered this question quite well already. Another way to look at it is to say that the racket handle is pulled forward with the racket head lagging behind at the start of the forward swing. This allows the wrist to lay back. LH's description is more complete than mine.
Don't be absurd... No, I don't think that I will wade thru 14 pages of that thread to read all your posts. Why don't you specify pertinent posts (or pages) or just Copy-Paste anything that might apply here.
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Don't know if the wrist is completely passive with Federer's layback but, for the most part, it is. If one were to actively lay the wrist back it would likely be seen as the wrist be flipped back (to forcefully achieve that wrist extension). I've seen quite a few junior players do this, particularly some fairly high-level females. I cringe every time I see this active wrist extension. You will not see very many, if any, elite players doing this.
Limpinhitter answered this question quite well already. Another way to look at it is to say that the racket handle is pulled forward with the racket head lagging behind at the start of the forward swing. This allows the wrist to lay back. LH's description is more complete than mine.
Don't be absurd... No, I don't think that I will wade thru 14 pages of that thread to read all your posts. Why don't you specify pertinent posts (or pages) or just Copy-Paste anything that might apply here.
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There is quote from your post #30,
“Previously, it appeared that you were implying that all pros laid the wrist back as much as possible. My point was that many do not lay it back to the extent that Fed does. I do not see Blake or Becker with as much wrist extension at all. On some FH shots they appear to have more extension than other of their FH shots but never to the extreme seen with Fed's FHs.”
According to you, different players create different lay back angles and I agree with you. Thus, pros control this motion and that can be done if the wrist is active.
There is big disagreement between your previous post and LH explanation.
More importantly, how they are able to control the wrist lay back angle when they swing the arm/wrist forward? Again the wrist should be active!!!
They are all laid to the max, The reason they are different because the way they laid it back and their bone wrist structure....OK, If you do not laid to the max, what will happen? Think, Toly, think...More importantly, how they are able to control the wrist lay back angle when they swing the arm/wrist forward? Again the wrist should be active!!!
Sure, If the wrist is firm at contact (not too rigid) you will have behind your string bed your whole body. If your wrist is loose, behind your string bed only have your handI find that if my wrist is completely relaxed I lose a couple of MPHs.
If I try to keep the wrist somewhat firm I am able to hit harder.
I find that if my wrist is completely relaxed I lose a couple of MPHs.
If I try to keep the wrist somewhat firm I am able to hit harder.
A firm wrist at contact is not the same as an actively "flapping" one though. I do not think that my forearm muscles are strong enough to add any significant power, so I'd rather trade it for better control.