If you blame Azarenka, You need to blame Rafa as well

M

Magnus

Legend
Seriously, stop the double standards. Nadal has started the whole fake injury fiasco and did it time after time against multiple opponents. Its how he won Wimbledon 2010, its how he won Hamburg 2008, FO11, etc.

The guy has used those tactics to his advantage many, many times. Since it was proved so succsesful other players have started embracing it and now we have a sport full of cheaters, both in ATP and WTA. Azarenka is just another cheater.
 
veroniquem

veroniquem

Bionic Poster
Everybody takes MTOs. Blame Li Na. She took 2 MTOs, one of them in the middle of Aza's service game. It takes some nerves to complain about Vika after that.
 
veroniquem

veroniquem

Bionic Poster
If the issue is that it throws the opponent off rhythm, it will do so whether you estimate it's legit or not and it will definitely be worse in the middle of a game. There is no way to evaluate whether breathing issues are more or less legitimate than a bump on the head. It's 100% subjective.
 
PhrygianDominant

PhrygianDominant

Hall of Fame
veroniquem said:
If the issue is that it throws the opponent off rhythm, it will do so whether you estimate it's legit or not and it will definitely be worse in the middle of a game. There is no way to evaluate whether breathing issues are more or less legitimate than a bump on the head. It's 100% subjective.
Click to expand...

Except when the person completely admits to taking and MTO because she was choking in an on court interview, then changes the story afterwards in her presser.

At least Nadal remembers the lies he tells, and when to tell them.
 
veroniquem

veroniquem

Bionic Poster
She didn't admit that. She said she couldn't breathe. The match video shows that it's exactly what she told the trainer.
 
S

Sri

New User
veroniquem said:
Everybody takes MTOs. Blame Li Na. She took 2 MTOs, one of them in the middle of Aza's service game. It takes some nerves to complain about Vika after that.
Click to expand...
Did you miss the part where she fell and her head crashed with the hardcourt surface?
 
veroniquem

veroniquem

Bionic Poster
That could also be blamed on bad conditioning. It's a player's responsibility to be fit and ready for a match. (Or to wear appropriate sneakers, lol).
 
D

DMan

Professional
veroniquem said:
If the issue is that it throws the opponent off rhythm, it will do so whether you estimate it's legit or not and it will definitely be worse in the middle of a game. There is no way to evaluate whether breathing issues are more or less legitimate than a bump on the head. It's 100% subjective.
Click to expand...

No it's not. Azarenka and Nadal are absolute proven cheats. Azarenka the biggest one of all. She lied about having an injury. It wasn't subjective at all. But then again, those who defend Azarenka demonstrate that they cheat themselves, and they think it's alright.
 
D

DMan

Professional
veroniquem said:
That could also be blamed on bad conditioning. It's a player's responsibility to be fit and ready for a match. (Or to wear appropriate sneakers, lol).
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So Azarenka wasn't in condition, after only 80 minutes of play?

As opposed to Li Na running and turning her ankle, twice?
 
veroniquem

veroniquem

Bionic Poster
DMan said:
No it's not. Azarenka and Nadal are absolute proven cheats. Azarenka the biggest one of all. She lied about having an injury. It wasn't subjective at all. But then again, those who defend Azarenka demonstrate that they cheat themselves, and they think it's alright.
Click to expand...



Repeating the same unfounded accusation a thousand times doesn't make it any more true
 
T

Tennis_Hands

Banned
veroniquem said:
(Or to wear appropriate sneakers, lol).
Click to expand...

Your cynical attitude is nothing short of disgusting. Even more so, considering the fact, that you find an excuse for the questionable (at best) behaviour of your favourite tennis player, when it comes to MTOs.
 
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M

Magnus

Legend
To be honest, while I like Li Na and was rooting for her, I couldn't shake the feeling that if she was really that hurt, she should have stopped playing. If its not career-threatning injury, she should not be able to get treatment and just move on. Those MTOs have become a joke. Players are now using them as a bonus rather than a real treatment to a problem. It:

a) Gives them a nice treatment
b) Stops the opponent's momentum and annoys them
c) allows them to get a breather

Nadal started the fiasco, and now its out of control.
 
M

Magnus

Legend
veroniquem said:
That could also be blamed on bad conditioning. It's a player's responsibility to be fit and ready for a match. (Or to wear appropriate sneakers, lol).
Click to expand...

Tell that to your hypocrite idol Rafa. You were using excuses such as "he was tired" or "he was injured" or my personal favorite "he had a stomach virus" NONSTOP when he was losing. Seriously, do you read what you write? There is ZERO sync between your posts.
 
N

NadalDramaQueen

Guest
veroniquem said:
Everybody takes MTOs. Blame Li Na. She took 2 MTOs, one of them in the middle of Aza's service game. It takes some nerves to complain about Vika after that.
Click to expand...

I would just like to point out that, in anticipation of this thread and general idea, you handled the whole Azarenka incident well in order to avoid any hypocrisy. Hats off to you, sir. :)

Not that it took any extraordinary foresight...
 
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M

Magnus

Legend
NadalDramaQueen said:
I would just like to point out that, in anticipation of this thread and general idea, you handled the whole Azarenka incident well in order to avoid any hypocrisy. Hats off to you, sir. :)

Not that it took any extraordinary foresight...
Click to expand...

Makes her even more hypocrite imo.
 
D

dominikk1985

Legend
Magnus said:
Seriously, stop the double standards. Nadal has started the whole fake injury fiasco and did it time after time against multiple opponents. Its how he won Wimbledon 2010, its how he won Hamburg 2008, FO11, etc.

The guy has used those tactics to his advantage many, many times. Since it was proved so succsesful other players have started embracing it and now we have a sport full of cheaters, both in ATP and WTA. Azarenka is just another cheater.
Click to expand...

lol, there are 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

threads about nadals "fake injuries".
 
edmondsm

edmondsm

Legend
veroniquem said:
Everybody takes MTOs. Blame Li Na. She took 2 MTOs, one of them in the middle of Aza's service game. It takes some nerves to complain about Vika after that.
Click to expand...

LOL that you even compare the two. Li Na had visibly turned her ankle, both times. Vika not only had no visible injury, but later admitted that she was just succumbing to nerves. Your bias is so strong. You are desperate to not acknowledge that Nadal has used MTOs in an unsporting fashion.
 
DeShaun

DeShaun

Banned
veroniquem said:
If the issue is that it throws the opponent off rhythm, it will do so whether you estimate it's legit or not and it will definitely be worse in the middle of a game. There is no way to evaluate whether breathing issues are more or less legitimate than a bump on the head. It's 100% subjective.
Click to expand...
I agree. Its all bout throwing people off rhythm and it traces back to McEnroe and his predecessors Im sure. Anything to gain an edge when margins are thin.
 
M

Magnus

Legend
edmondsm said:
LOL that you even compare the two. Li Na had visibly turned her ankle, both times. Vika not only had no visible injury, but later admitted that she was just succumbing to nerves. Your bias is so strong. You are desperate to not acknowledge that Nadal has used MTOs in an unsporting fashion.
Click to expand...

This.

And Nadal will continue doing so and his cheater fans will keep cheering for it.
 
M

Magnus

Legend
DeShaun said:
I agree. Its all bout throwing people off rhythm and it traces back to McEnroe and his predecessors Im sure. Anything to gain an edge when margins are thin.
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The timing, the essence, and what happens in the match are more than enough evidence to see if its legit or not. Li Na, for example, fell quite a few times and she needed medical treatment (and I still don't justify her taking it!). Azarenka took it to get a breather and for her opponent to get annoyed, it is clear by the timing, the fact she wasn't injured during the match, and how she played after.

With Li Na, she couldn't play well after the MTOs, it was clear she was injured, she didn't mvoe well, she could not sustain any sort of solid game to really threaten Vika. As for Nadal, just watch Wimbledon 2010, round 3 match, Nadal was so stressed, he seriously considered he's going to lose the match, and needed to throw his opponent off rhythm as well as getting a breather. He took an MTO (for an injury nobody saw happen during the match) and then was running like a rabbit, hitting winners, annoying his opponent who loste his focus, and his serve, and eventually the match. What Nadal did belongs in soccer, not in tennis, he should have been called out for it by interviewers and tennis officials and he wasn't. I'd let it go if it was the only example but its hardly the only one.
 
Jay_The_Nomad

Jay_The_Nomad

Professional
veroniquem said:
If the issue is that it throws the opponent off rhythm, it will do so whether you estimate it's legit or not and it will definitely be worse in the middle of a game. There is no way to evaluate whether breathing issues are more or less legitimate than a bump on the head. It's 100% subjective.
Click to expand...

That is such an ignorant statement.

This bump on the head is not just a bump. The main concern is that Li Na could have suffered a concussion (I.e. injury to her brain). The danger is that if she did indeed suffer a concussion from the first fall, if she were to fall and sustain trauma to her neck or brain, this second concussion could potentially lead to sudden death.
 
Jay_The_Nomad

Jay_The_Nomad

Professional
Magnus said:
To be honest, while I like Li Na and was rooting for her, I couldn't shake the feeling that if she was really that hurt, she should have stopped playing. If its not career-threatning injury, she should not be able to get treatment and just move on. Those MTOs have become a joke. Players are now using them as a bonus rather than a real treatment to a problem. It:

a) Gives them a nice treatment
b) Stops the opponent's momentum and annoys them
c) allows them to get a breather

Nadal started the fiasco, and now its out of control.
Click to expand...

The medical time outs are there to assess if the player is fit enough to continue playing and whether if they continue the match they put themselves at risk of causing serious damage.

If the injury is minor enough, they get taped up to minimize movement (as a precaution) and off they go so the spectators have a match to watch. Minor injuries does not mean you can't compete. It just means your injured body part is now weakened and even more susceptible to damage. So you need taping to protect it.

That is the intended purpose of MTOs. But just because MTOs are being exploited does not mean it should be scrapped.

I just think there should be more stringent supervision of MTOs. For example, you should not be able to have an MTO for cramps. If you got a cramp you shouldn't be able to ask the trainer to come out and massage you.
 
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M

Magnus

Legend
Jay_The_Nomad said:
The medical time outs are there to assess if the player is fit enough to continue playing and whether if they continue the match they put themselves at risk of causing serious damage.

If the injury is minor enough, they get taped up to minimize movement (as a precaution) and off they go so the spectators have a match to watch. Minor injuries does not mean you can't compete. It just means your injured body part is now weakened and even more susceptible to damage. So you need taping to protect it.

That is the intended purpose of MTOs. But just because MTOs are being exploited does not mean it should be scrapped.

I just think there should be more stringent supervision of MTOs. For example, you should not be able to have an MTO for cramps. If you got a cramp you shouldn't be able to ask the trainer to come out and massage you.
Click to expand...

If an injury is not severe yet the player, according to your definition, still deserves an MTO, he should at least get it only at the end of sets. The way it is now - you can just take it whenever you want, and you can take it on whatever excuse you come up with. Look at Azarenka, look at Nadal, one could argue they won their respective matches (the ones I was mentioning in previous posts) thanks to exploiting the rules and using the MTOs for reasons that have nothing to do with injuries. They should come up with a solution for this, same way they should enforce the time between points rule, yet I haven't seen them do that in the AO.
 
Jay_The_Nomad

Jay_The_Nomad

Professional
Magnus said:
If an injury is not severe yet the player, according to your definition, still deserves an MTO, he should at least get it only at the end of sets..
Click to expand...

I think MTOs at the end of a set is not practical or ideal.

Its better to have MTOs on the injured player's serve.
 
A

Alchemy-Z

Hall of Fame
Just make it where a MTO exceeding 5 min grants the opposing player the next point.

So if you just got broken and take a MTO over 5min when your opponent starts serving they begin in the add court with 15-0
 
T

Tennis_Hands

Banned
edmondsm said:
LOL that you even compare the two. Li Na had visibly turned her ankle, both times. Vika not only had no visible injury, but later admitted that she was just succumbing to nerves. Your bias is so strong. You are desperate to not acknowledge that Nadal has used MTOs in an unsporting fashion.
Click to expand...

Veroniquem is a unique poster.

No moral and knowledge of the game whatsoever (well, except for the one, gained here) which is visible in her contribution in threads like this. Saying something completely dumb and disrespectful, and, when called on it, stops posting untill it is forgotten.
 
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T

TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
veroniquem said:
Everybody takes MTOs. Blame Li Na. She took 2 MTOs, one of them in the middle of Aza's service game. It takes some nerves to complain about Vika after that.
Click to expand...

You're completely blind if you believe Li's MTO was a fake. She hit her head on court !!!!!!!!

How do you like it if you fall and hit your head on the cement?
Have some consciousness.
 
D

DropShotArtist

Banned
Alas there will always be cheaters in the game like Nadal and now the newly anointed cheat queen Azarenka. But what you gonna do? Just have to live with it, Fed does. And MTOs are probably not even Nadal's biggest 3-letter acronym infraction.
 
Vanhool

Vanhool

Hall of Fame
TMF said:
You're completely blind if you believe Li's MTO was a fake. She hit her head on court !!!!!!!!

How do you like it if you fall and hit your head on the cement?
Have some consciousness.
Click to expand...

Pretty sure this person was being sarcastic. He or she was just exposing how hateful some of the Vika-bashers are by using their own logic. Obviously Na was injured, but if you have an agenda you can twist facts to justify any opinion. The doctor confirmed Vika's injuries, and he was actually there. People should just get over it.
 
veroniquem

veroniquem

Bionic Poster
TMF said:
You're completely blind if you believe Li's MTO was a fake. She hit her head on court !!!!!!!!

How do you like it if you fall and hit your head on the cement?
Have some consciousness.
Click to expand...


She didn't seem to suffer either. She was laughing her head off when they did the finger test on her eyes (I don't blame her, most hilarious thing I've ever seen during a match). I'm glad she was fine of course, I wouldn't wish anyone any harm but that is not my point at all. My point was that the reason for the MTO is completely irrelevant in terms of hurting the opponent's rhythm and the worst moment for the MTO to happen is in the middle of the opponent's service game, which is what happened in the final. Big deal. Players have to handle that kind of stuff, it's their job. There is never a case where you could blame the final result on it. The rule says you're allowed an MTO. The rule doesn't say you have to PROVE the MTO was absolutely necessary. And that is not something up to the spectators to determine. If a player went so far as to take an MTO for no reason whatsoever, then it would be up to the doctor, trainer, ump or whatever other official to call it out. It is certainly not up to the spectator to pass that judgement. And regardless of the degree to which the MTO was vital (which is impossible for us to determine), the impact on the opponent is gonna be the same, so the opponent had better be able to cope with it, regardless of the justification for it.
My other point was that they filmed her conversation with the trainer before the time out, so when she said she couldn't breathe, she wasn't making up something after the fact because I can see with my own eyes that's what she told the trainer during the match. To what extent the breathing issues were a serious problem? How should I know? I'm not a doctor/trainer and neither are you but if the AO doctor diagnoses that there is an issue with a rib, I fail to see what kind of insider info a message board poster has to categorically counter that statement. Could the 105 degree temperature have contributed to breathing problems? Maybe not, maybe it was just nerves but nobody can say it would be impossible either.
In a court of law, you do not sentence a person on presumptions. (ever heard the expression "beyond a reasonable doubt"?) And yet that's what you're doing with Azarenka, based on irrational hatred and not much else.
 
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C

CCNM

Hall of Fame
Towser83 said:
He wrote the book "cheating with mto's for dummies"
Click to expand...
Ha ha ha ha ha!!!! Good one!!! I'm sure the locker rooms at big-name tennis tournaments are like the ones for basketball & hockey-with weights, exercise machines, heat and ice packs, etc. And I would think that players would use them if necessary to treat themselves so they wouldn't have to stop in the middle of a match. (Hope that makes sense)
 
T

Tennis_Hands

Banned
veroniquem said:
She didn't seem to suffer either. She was laughing her head off when they did the finger test on her eyes (I don't blame her, most hilarious thing I've ever seen during a match). I'm glad she was fine of course, I wouldn't wish anyone any harm but that is not my point at all. My point was that the reason for the MTO is completely irrelevant in terms of hurting the opponent's rhythm and the worst moment for the MTO to happen is in the middle of the opponent's service game, which is what happened in the final. Big deal. Players have to handle that kind of stuff, it's their job. There is never a case where you could blame the final result on it. The rule says you're allowed an MTO. The rule doesn't say you have to PROVE the MTO was absolutely necessary. And that is not something up to the spectators to determine. If a player went so far as to take an MTO for no reason whatsoever, then it would be up to the doctor, trainer, ump or whatever other official to call it out. It is certainly not up to the spectator to pass that judgement. And regardless of the degree to which the MTO was vital (which is impossible for us to determine), the impact on the opponent is gonna be the same, so the opponent had better be able to cope with it, regardless of the justification for it.
My other point was that they filmed her conversation with the trainer before the time out, so when she said she couldn't breathe, she wasn't making up something after the fact because I can see with my own eyes that's what she told the trainer during the match. To what extent the breathing issues were a serious problem? How should I know? I'm not a doctor/trainer and neither are you but if the AO doctor diagnoses that there is an issue with a rib, I fail to see what kind of insider info a message board poster has to categorically counter that statement. Could the 105 degree temperature have contributed to breathing problems? Maybe not, maybe it was just nerves but nobody can say it would be impossible either.
In a court of law, you do not sentence a person on presumptions. (ever heard the expression "beyond a reasonable doubt"?) And yet that's what you're doing with Azarenka, based on irrational hatred and not much else.
Click to expand...

Conditioning problems are not an injury. Concussion is.

Now, stop that nonsense.
 
edmondsm

edmondsm

Legend
Crisstti said:
Lol, yet another ridiculous thread from you. You can't know if any MTO from Nadal has been illegitimate. You just like to think so.
Click to expand...

So are we just supposed to ignore all the evidence? Multiple players have spoken up about Nadal taking dubious MTOs. A simple google search will reveal this to you.
 
TTMR

TTMR

Hall of Fame
Good to know Federer's 2012 Wimbledon now comes with an asterik too, given he took an MTO against Malisse.

Right?
 
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