please rate these two girls

T

tonygao

Rookie
hi,

just came across a good match vid where two girls are playing. it created a big discussion among my friends about the two girls' level if they play against male players.

so could you have a look and rate both of them? please ignore the ball boys and don't look up the names to find the background, give your rate only by watching how well these two girls played in this vid. male 4.5, 5.0 or 5.5?

thanks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVx9kGlxrBo
 
C

ClarkC

Hall of Fame
tonygao said:
... don't look up the names to find the background ...
Click to expand...

The surnames are in the YouTube video title. Believe it or not, some people on the College Tennis board will recognize the names without having to look them up.
 
M

mikej

Hall of Fame
*must resist temptation to get dragged into another compare men's vs women's tennis levels sh!tshow that has been beaten to death a million times*
 
L

LeeD

Bionic Poster
5.5 Div1 level women.
They would beat everyone here except the couple dozen or so 5.0's and aboves.
 
T

tennis_tater

Semi-Pro
I think everyone would agree they would be 5.5 plus in the women's league.

As far as men's, I would say 4.5 sandbaggers could beat them, but they would probably fit in best/play with 5.0 males.

And for the poster who said men's 4.0, these girls would destroy the men's 4.0 in my section.
 
G

gully

Professional
Ahm, no. McPhillips and Ahn were top 5 TRN in the nation as juniors and have been honing their skills for two of the top college teams in the country. A 4.5 with a great serve might be able to hold a few games against them, but that's all.

I acknowledge that the video looks a little unimpressive. But seriously.
 
roman40

roman40

Rookie
gully said:
Ahm, no. McPhillips and Ahn were top 5 TRN in the nation as juniors and have been honing their skills for two of the top college teams in the country. A 4.5 with a great serve might be able to hold a few games against them, but that's all.

I acknowledge that the video looks a little unimpressive. But seriously.
Click to expand...
They are 5.0+, but I think strong male 4.5 would win. I am a 4.0, and I don't doubt I can take a few games from them.
 
G

gully

Professional
roman40 said:
They are 5.0+, but I think strong male 4.5 would win. I am a 4.0, and I don't doubt I can take a few games from them.
Click to expand...
If by 5.0+ you mean 6.0-6.5, yes, indeed they are :5.0+. No 4.5 male would beat either of them. Not one--strong or weak. No 4.0 would get invited for a hit with either, and if he stepped out on the court with Tan or McPhillips, he'd be lucky to pull a single game a set.

If there's a 4.0 on the boards who routinely competes with top-25 nationally-ranked women like McPhillips and Ahn wins more than a game a set doing so, I'd love it hear it.
 
C

ClarkC

Hall of Fame
mikej said:
*must resist temptation to get dragged into another compare men's vs women's tennis levels sh!tshow that has been beaten to death a million times*
Click to expand...

A wise choice. The conversation is going about the way you predicted.
 
C

ClarkC

Hall of Fame
gully said:
Ahm, no. McPhillips and Ahn were top 5 TRN in the nation as juniors and have been honing their skills for two of the top college teams in the country. A 4.5 with a great serve might be able to hold a few games against them, but that's all.

I acknowledge that the video looks a little unimpressive. But seriously.
Click to expand...

Video always looks unimpressive. When you watch tennis from courtside, the ball flies back and forth. When you have a video angle that can capture the whole court, it does not look nearly as fast. I have sat courtside at UVa during the National Team Indoors when the best players in the nation were playing each other, and they look like they are hitting harder than the pros on TV. If I were watching those same pros from the same vantage point instead of watching them on TV, I would think they are hitting harder than the college players.

People who do not understand this always come on here and post their under-evaluations of players based on YouTube videos. They should run a simple experiment: Video one of their club matches, post it on YouTube, and then watch it, switching back and forth to compare to the college videos, women's videos, etc. that they are critiquing. They will be amazed at how slow and weak they look on YouTube compared to how they picture themselves.
 
roman40

roman40

Rookie
gully said:
If by 5.0+ you mean 6.0-6.5, yes, indeed they are :5.0+. No 4.5 male would beat either of them. Not one--strong or weak. No 4.0 would get invited for a hit with either, and if he stepped out on the court with Tan or McPhillips, he'd be lucky to pull a single game a set.

If there's a 4.0 on the boards who routinely competes with top-25 nationally-ranked women like McPhillips and Ahn wins more than a game a set doing so, I'd love it hear it.
Click to expand...
They make enough unforced errors, and their serve is not a problem, so I don't think a few games (1-2 a set) is out of the question, assuming I am in top form. Top 4.5 guy, has more weapons, including a much bigger serve, basically they're average 5.0, so let's just say 5.0 instead of 4.5. That's my assessment, but YouTube videos can be deceiving. You're right, by USTA standards, they are 6.0 (though not 6.5), but I think that's on par with men's 5.0.

BTW, I like "player perspective" for a level evaluation video, since that's the point of view we have when we play tennis.
 
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corbind

corbind

Professional
ClarkC said:
Video always looks unimpressive. When you watch tennis from courtside, the ball flies back and forth. When you have a video angle that can capture the whole court, it does not look nearly as fast. I have sat courtside at UVa during the National Team Indoors when the best players in the nation were playing each other, and they look like they are hitting harder than the pros on TV. If I were watching those same pros from the same vantage point instead of watching them on TV, I would think they are hitting harder than the college players.

People who do not understand this always come on here and post their under-evaluations of players based on YouTube videos. They should run a simple experiment: Video one of their club matches, post it on YouTube, and then watch it, switching back and forth to compare to the college videos, women's videos, etc. that they are critiquing. They will be amazed at how slow and weak they look on YouTube compared to how they picture themselves.
Click to expand...

You speak the complete truth in your two paragraphs so mich so they should be required reading before watching tennis videos or rating players in videos.
 
W

widmerpool

Rookie
roman40 said:
They make enough unforced errors, and their serve is not a problem, so I don't think a few games (1-2 a set) is out of the question, assuming I am in top form. Top 4.5 guy, has more weapons, including a much bigger serve, basically they're average 5.0, so let's just say 5.0 instead of 4.5. That's my assessment, but YouTube videos can be deceiving. You're right, by USTA standards, they are 6.0 (though not 6.5), but I think that's on par with men's 5.0.

BTW, I like "player perspective" for a level evaluation video, since that's the point of view we have when we play tennis.
Click to expand...

You are absolutely off your rocker unless 4.5 means something else where you live.

In Atlanta, a 4.5 male gets rocked by either of these girls. It would be a joke.
 
Nostradamus

Nostradamus

Bionic Poster
K Ahn is future #3 or #4 in the world. Garanteed lock to win the French or US open. Todd Martin had said this couple of years ago
 
roman40

roman40

Rookie
widmerpool said:
You are absolutely off your rocker unless 4.5 means something else where you live.

In Atlanta, a 4.5 male gets rocked by either of these girls. It would be a joke.
Click to expand...
That's why I said singles 5.0 instead. Yeah, he might lose, but it will be close. I think a 5.0 with a strong serve will hold most service games, at the very least.
 
W

widmerpool

Rookie
roman40 said:
That's why I said singles 5.0 instead. Yeah, he might lose, but it will be close. I think a 5.0 with a strong serve will hold most service games, at the very least.
Click to expand...

I played 5.0 in Atlanta. It's basically older guys who used to be decent high school or lower level college players. But what they don't do all that well is move. Which is why they would be beaten soundly by these girls. The girls just won't miss while the poor footwork of a 5.0 will cause them to make a bunch of UE.

You seem to be describing a 5.5 player. A former Div I player playing enough to be at a fairly high level, but not as high as his college playing days.

And as said above, people overestimate how fast they look on the court. With that foreshortened angle in the video, the ball doesn't look like it's moving so fast.
 
od_sf

od_sf

New User
Ahn has been ranked as high as 304 in the WTA. She's currently ranked 568 in the world. Any 4.0 who thinks he would win games off her needs to lay off the crack pipe.
 
D

drgchen

Rookie
I say competitive with 5.0. A men's 4.5 would get some games but probably lose- sandbaggers excluded. One can self rate at any level for USTA. If they played a solid men's 5.5, it would be close to a double bagel loss for the woman. Tony Larsen on this board called himself a 5.5 and is listed on the ATP World Tour website with no ranking.

In the places that I play tennis, a 5.0/ 5.5 means something. One of my high school friends is a top ranked 5.0/ 5.5 USTA player (southern california) who is now about 40 years old. There are many videos of him winning tiebreakers against open and ATP players. The men's game extends deep, players with low rankings can be competitive with the higher ranked players...note the Wimbledon results for Federer and Nadal.

In Ohio and Michigan most people who are good play 4.0, that's the generally accepted highest level for men's amateur tennis. If you call yourself a 5.0 you are either a tennis pro, previous NCAA player, or older former ATP player.

There are almost zero videos of college or WTA players hitting with men...even though many are coached or train with men...there is a reason for this- the women's game is not as strong. It is like comparing featherweight boxers to heavyweights...they might look good, but one big punch and they are out.
 
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W

widmerpool

Rookie
drgchen said:
I say competitive with 5.0. A men's 4.5 would get some games but probably lose- sandbaggers excluded. One can self rate at any level for USTA. If they played a solid men's 5.5, it would be close to a double bagel loss for the woman. Tony Larsen on this board called himself a 5.5 and is listed on the ATP World Tour website with no ranking.
Click to expand...

I guess 5.0 is probably the rating that becomes most different in different places.

In ATL, it's honestly probably best described as "strong 4.5" players. So then our 5.5 is truly the former college players playing at a decent level.

In ATL, 5.5 Mens is where the match is close to equal.

Regardless, a lot of posters here honestly think a 4.5 man would have a chance. No matter what region, a 4.5 is not beating these girls.
 
M

maggmaster

Hall of Fame
I have seen Mcphillips play in person at an exhibition with Lauren Davis. She is very, very solid and hits the stuffing out of the ball. Incidentally her dad is a 4.0 in my mens league. She will beat any male who is not on the tour easily, to get practice partners in our area she would be looking for the top open men or the ex pros.
 
D

drgchen

Rookie
maggmaster said:
I have seen Mcphillips play in person at an exhibition with Lauren Davis. She is very, very solid and hits the stuffing out of the ball. Incidentally her dad is a 4.0 in my mens league. She will beat any male who is not on the tour easily, to get practice partners in our area she would be looking for the top open men or the ex pros.
Click to expand...

Lauren Davis is on the pro tour. High ranked player. 120 pounds and petite like 5 ft 2 or 3. I'm sure with that frame she is generating a lot more power than the guy who is a 5.0 NTRP 6'4 200 lbs former division 1 player. (sarcasm).

Honestly- Lauren Davis was coached most of her life until recently by a top tennis pro in Ohio. He was a former tour player and is officially rated on the USTA site at...5.0. He hit competitively with her and helped develop her to that level with his skill and knowledge. So a top woman player hitting with a 5.0 is about right in my book. That is reality. Now you can continue your fantasies of equal strength, skill, etc.
 
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L

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Josofo....
No, they'd have no chance.
But their GRANDparents might handle LeeD's serves in 1977.
Those two were too small to use even a 4 1/4 grip racket back then.
 
T

tennis4josh

Rookie
So many people on this board have no clue about how good college players are. Let me try to explain using my own example.

I am a computer rated 4.0 male and exclusively play doubles in USTA 4.0 league. For past 3 seasons I have a consistent 80% winning record. I also play in a corporate/social league where I regularly play with and against 5.0+ men and women.

Now here is the reality for you guys. I hate to admit it, but I cannot even give a decent warm up to 5.0+ players. These former college players hit extremely heavy ball. Even when they are hitting very slow they put a lot of spin on the ball which most 4.0 level players cannot handle very well.

In my experience average 5.0 is twice as good as average 4.0, and average 5.5 is 4 times as good.

-Josh
 
M

maggmaster

Hall of Fame
Drgchen I am not sure I know who you are talking about but there are a couple 5.0s in the North Eastern Ohio area who are really 5.5s or even higher. I for one cannot understand how someone who achieved an ATP ranking in the 300s can play 5.0 before they are 40. So I suppose I rescind my statement, no 5.0 who is actually playing at level can beat these girls. Is that better?
 
D

drgchen

Rookie
Let me make basic assumptions:
I'm assuming one player is MCPHILLIPS, Kyle- current WTA 959 ranking
The other player is AHN, Kristie- current WTA 541.
Both would therefore be a Woman 6.5 NTRP.

Lauren Davis was also brought into the conversation, WTA 70, NTRP 7.0.

Newspaper article- http://www.cleveland.com/sports/index.ssf/2008/09/youth_is_served_by_freshmen_te.html

Quote: She credits her personal coach, Rich Mostardi, the director of tennis at North Ridge Racquet Club in North Ridgeville, for a marked improvement in her game. Despite the 35-mile trip between her Gates Mills home and the club, Davis said working with Mostardi has been a revelation.
"He has got me to where I am," Davis said of Mostardi, who began working with her about nine months ago. "I knew that I had room for improvement, and by listening to Rich I knew I would improve. I respect him and I listen."

Mostardi- respected coach in NE Ohio, previous tour player 90s, NTRP computer rating 5.0.
Many previous four year Div 1 men are rated in the USTA computer 5.0. He is probably over 40 so that sounds about right.

Video NTRP 4.0 man vs NTRP 6.5 woman, score 2-8, man lost.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wIK1otb-2E&feature=youtu.be

In my assessment he is a weak 4.0. There are very few videos of high level women playing recreational men because the women know that it makes them look bad. As I have said in the past, a black belt isn't a black belt. A 10 year old 60 lb boy who is a Karate black belt would get destroyed by a 220 lb man who is a white belt.
 
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L

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Not sure if any 4.0 who is relegated only to doubles play can get more than 3 points a game off a Div1 female who's under 600 on the WTA tour.
Heck, he would barely get ONE game off his top singles team player, probably NONE. And obviously, he could not beat any of singles guys, in singles.
 
S

Sumo

Semi-Pro
drgchen said:
Let me make basic assumptions:
I'm assuming one player is MCPHILLIPS, Kyle- current WTA 959 ranking
The other player is AHN, Kristie- current WTA 541.
Both would therefore be a Woman 6.5 NTRP.

Lauren Davis was also brought into the conversation, WTA 70, NTRP 7.0.

Newspaper article- http://www.cleveland.com/sports/index.ssf/2008/09/youth_is_served_by_freshmen_te.html

Quote: She credits her personal coach, Rich Mostardi, the director of tennis at North Ridge Racquet Club in North Ridgeville, for a marked improvement in her game. Despite the 35-mile trip between her Gates Mills home and the club, Davis said working with Mostardi has been a revelation.
"He has got me to where I am," Davis said of Mostardi, who began working with her about nine months ago. "I knew that I had room for improvement, and by listening to Rich I knew I would improve. I respect him and I listen."

Mostardi- respected coach in NE Ohio, previous tour player 90s, NTRP computer rating 5.0.
Many previous four year Div 1 men are rated in the USTA computer 5.0. He is probably over 40 so that sounds about right.

Video NTRP 4.0 man vs NTRP 6.5 woman, score 2-8, man lost.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wIK1otb-2E&feature=youtu.be

In my assessment he is a weak 4.0. There are very few videos of high level women playing recreational men because the women know that it makes them look bad. As I have said in the past, a black belt isn't a black belt. A 10 year old 60 lb boy who is a Karate black belt would get destroyed by a 220 lb man who is a white belt.
Click to expand...

This has been covered, and you are wrong.
 
D

drgchen

Rookie
Sumo said:
This has been covered, and you are wrong.
Click to expand...

Basically he IS a 4.0. This is what USTA has him as right? That is what he and the video says that he is rated. Strong, weak, middle, 4.0=4.0. Do you think that the same guy would be winning points and staying in rallies with a 6.5 man? Is that video one of a guy getting 'demolished', a guy who isn't even getting his racquet on the ball?

I said MY assessment. Not your assessment. Therefore YOU are wrong. :evil: This guy is a weak 4.0 in Michigan, IN MY OPINION. We are splitting hairs. You have 2.5 NTRP difference between the people and the guy gets some games and he wins many points, staying in rallies. A 6.5 man vs a 4.0 man would look like a 4.0 playing a 5 year old.

Whittier Narrows itennis money round robin. Southern California weekly tournament. Winner gets paid. Coed. I don't think a girl or woman has won. I've seen 4.0-5.0 guys take apart nationally ranked girls.
 
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L

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Any IN SHAPE, 220 lbs man, can kill any 10 year old kid easily, if both were to fight seroiusly.
 
D

drgchen

Rookie
Look, these young women are extremely talented. They work as hard as the men who are training for college and the pro circuit. NTRP men does not equal NTRP women. Physical limitations in strength and speed affect the outcomes of tennis. That is why we have leagues and women compete separately from men. Just as how children compete separately from adults and seniors are in different divisions than young adults. Even colleges separate themselves into different divisions. This is the same reason why my parents never expected me to play basketball- if you are a average man in size and weight, you just can't compete with college or pro NBA players, regardless of talent. There are two men in the NBA who are 5'9 or shorter- that means maybe 1 in a billion.

So a 110-120 pound woman trying to outhit or outserve a 180 lb man is just a huge mountain to climb. Serena has the muscle strength to outhit many men, but then with her weight, is her movement comparable? She was shown up by a no-name challenger man when she boasted about how she could compete on the men's tour.
 
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