Is Nadal's HC success overrated?

WhiskeyEE · Mar 18, 2012

A few years ago, especially after his AO win, people were talking about how Rafa has learned to play on HC. But really, outside of his 2 slam wins, what success has he had on hard courts? He won almost as many HC masters titles in 2005 as he has in the last 6.5 years. And he fails at the WTF every year.

I mean his HC resume is barely better than Andy Roddick's. And if it weren't for Fed choking in 2009, they would be identical. Yeah, he won the gold medal, when Novak was still extremely inconsistent and Federer was playing the worst tennis of his career. So anyway, is his HC success overrated?

Rafa:
Slams: 2 (1 in the last 3 years)
Masters: 5 (3 since 2005)
WT Finals: 0

Fed:
Slams: 9
Masters: 13 (maybe 14 in a few hours)
WT Finals: 6

Novak:
Slams: 4
Masters: 7
WT Finals: 1

Roddick:
Slams: 1
Masters: 5
WT Finals: 0

Rock Strongo · Mar 18, 2012

I don't know, but judging from your username you have excellent taste.

monfed · Mar 18, 2012

Obviously. Ralph still hasn't won a title on a legit HC.

Quite frankly, I consider him an average HCer who successfully uses his clay game on it because the majority of the HCs are abominably slow.

billnepill · Mar 18, 2012

People put him behind Fed and Novak. That is how is rated.

Now, is that overrated?

OverratedIvanovic · Mar 18, 2012

2 slams and 2 GS finals is fairly decent imo. Had it not been for Djokovic, he would have won IW, Miami and USO last year. I think he is still the second best HC player especially in grandslams.

Deleted member 21996 · Mar 18, 2012

Nadal is not overated in HC. he is however in Clay... a lot!!

boredone3456 · Mar 18, 2012

Yes and so is Federers on clay there are we all happy now

tacou · Mar 18, 2012

rate him however you want objectively, but an Olympic gold, 2 slams, 5masters and a WTF final is a pretty solid career, let alone just a hard court record

Mike Sams · Mar 18, 2012

OverratedIvanovic said:
2 slams and 2 GS finals is fairly decent imo. Had it not been for Djokovic, he would have won IW, Miami and USO last year. I think he is still the second best HC player especially in grandslams.

Had it not been for Nadal, Federer would have probably 6 more Slams and several clay Masters. :lol:
You can't use Djokovic as an excuse for Nadal's shortcomings on hardcourts. The final is where the real test is.

Mike Sams · Mar 18, 2012

tacou said:
rate him however you want objectively, but an Olympic gold, 2 slams, 5masters and a WTF final is a pretty solid career, let alone just a hard court record

This is true. Even though USO 2010 saw the biggest joke of a draw ever for Nadal, he still won it so deserves the accolades.

ZeroSkid · Mar 18, 2012

Rafa is so underrated

BeHappy · Mar 18, 2012

Who is rating everyone's thread 1 star?

It's just one person because if I rate it 5 stars the thread moves to 3 stars (average of 5 and 1)

zagor · Mar 18, 2012

Not his fan but personally I think he's underrated on HC, for a supposed CC specialist he had some tremendous results on HC.

The-Champ · Mar 18, 2012

Yes, everyone is overrated in this era. It's a weak era.

Polaris · Mar 18, 2012

Not overrated at all. He has 2 HC Slams. He has earned his HC success.

LazyNinja19 · Mar 9, 2014

Great thread indeed... :roll:

FedererWinsWimbledon2014 · Mar 9, 2014

LazyNinja19 said:
Great thread indeed... :roll:

3 hard court slams, scary stuff.

I think he has less HC titles than Murray. He is also streets behind Novak on HC and comparing him on HC to Fed wouldn't even be funny.

MichaelNadal · Mar 9, 2014

FedererWinsWimbledon2014 said:
3 hard court slams, scary stuff.

I think he has less HC titles than Murray. He is also streets behind Novak on HC and comparing him on HC to Fed wouldn't even be funny.

So what you're saying is that there are 3 people alive who have better HC results? Murray has 1 HC slam so in reality 2. One is probably the best tennis player in history, the other a candidate for greatest HC player of all time. Yeah Rafa is overrated on hard indeed. :lol:

Kenshin · Mar 9, 2014

FedererWinsWimbledon2014 said:
3 hard court slams, scary stuff.

I think he has less HC titles than Murray. He is also streets behind Novak on HC and comparing him on HC to Fed wouldn't even be funny.

This is ridiculous. 3 Hard court titles and 6 Finals is nothing to laught about. Many players will love to have that career. It is impressive stuff, considering he was constantly named " Clay courter". Look how far he has come.

FedererWinsWimbledon2014 · Mar 9, 2014

MichaelNadal said:
So what you're saying is that there are 3 people alive who have better HC results? Murray has 1 HC slam so in reality 2. One is probably the best tennis player in history, the other a candidate for greatest HC player of all time. Yeah Rafa is overrated on hard indeed. :lol:

3 people active not alive. I'm not say he is over or underrated as I don't know what his rating is.

What I am saying his HC credentials aren't worthy of a tier 1 great (which Nadal is) or arguably of someone who has won 13 slams and counting.

Kenshin · Mar 9, 2014

FedererWinsWimbledon2014 said:
3 people active not alive. I'm not say he is over or underrated as I don't know what his rating is.

What I am saying his HC credentials aren't worthy of a tier 1 great (which Nadal is) or arguably of someone who has won 13 slams and counting.

Well, if you want to play that game, Federer credentials aren't worthy of a tier 1 great who has 17 grandslams. He only has 1 grandslam title on clay. Do you know how insane this thinking is??

SLD76 · Mar 9, 2014

It does help that the HC field is weaker now than it has been in a while.

Think about it . No soderling, no davydenko, Delpo hurt, Nalbandian gone, murray hurt/subpar, Roddick gone, Fish gone.

Sure you have guys like Tsonga and Berdych, but they rarely bring the goods against the big 4 unless its Federer on an off day/hurt.

So basically, the past 2 years the HC field has gotten considerably weaker than say 4-5 years ago. Im not saying its the entire reason for Nadal's HC success last year( skipping the AO surely added some stamina) but, it sure didnt hurt either.

Kenshin · Mar 9, 2014

SLD76 said:
It does help that the HC field is weaker now than it has been in a while.

Think about it . No soderling, no davydenko, Delpo hurt, Nalbandian gone, murray hurt/subpar, Roddick gone, Fish gone.

Sure you have guys like Tsonga and Berdych, but they rarely bring the goods against the big 4 unless its Federer on an off day/hurt.

So basically, the past 2 years the HC field has gotten considerably weaker than say 4-5 years ago. Im not saying its the entire reason for Nadal's HC success last year( skipping the AO surely added some stamina) but, it sure didnt hurt either.

I disagree. Look at the list of winners and finalist at AO and USO. Except Nadal, there is always Djokovic and Murray. It is definitely strong field. Like Stan said players has to go through either Federer, Nadal, Djokovic and Murray to win the title. Or couple of them. And that is a very difficult think to do.

Forehand Of Doom · Mar 9, 2014

SLD76 said:
It does help that the HC field is weaker now than it has been in a while.

Think about it . No soderling, no davydenko, Delpo hurt, Nalbandian gone, murray hurt/subpar, Roddick gone, Fish gone.

Sure you have guys like Tsonga and Berdych, but they rarely bring the goods against the big 4 unless its Federer on an off day/hurt.

So basically, the past 2 years the HC field has gotten considerably weaker than say 4-5 years ago. Im not saying its the entire reason for Nadal's HC success last year( skipping the AO surely added some stamina) but, it sure didnt hurt either.

You forgot to mention Djokovic 2.0.

Forehand Of Doom · Mar 9, 2014

Nadal's HC stats aren't too shabby. 3 slams and 8 Masters, with presumably more to come. Nadal's performance on HC is much closer to Federer's than Federer's performance on clay to Nadal's.

Also, Nadal has won the American HC swing, which is quite impressive and which Federer could never win.

SLD76 · Mar 9, 2014

Kenshin said:
I disagree. Look at the list of winners and finalist at AO and USO. Except Nadal, there is always Djokovic and Murray. It is definitely strong field. Like Stan said players has to go through either Federer, Nadal, Djokovic and Murray to win the title. Or couple of them. And that is a very difficult think to do.

Of course the top 4 are strong, but aside from that what is there? Tsonga, Berdych? a declining Ferrer?

Thats my point. aside from the big 4, the HC field is weak. Hell, the field in general is weaker, but HC competition has especially gotten weaker with the loss of the players I mentioned whose best surfaces are HC( HC and clay in the case of soderling).

and now with Murray being subpar its that much weaker. It remains to be seen what Wawrinka will do since winning the AO. But even a strong Stan just replaces a diminished Murray, so you still essentially have a Big 4, then a precipitous drop.

Kenshin · Mar 9, 2014

SLD76 said:
Of course the top 4 are strong, but aside from that what is there? Tsonga, Berdych? a declining Ferrer?

Thats my point. aside from the big 4, the HC field is weak. Hell, the field in general is weaker, but HC competition has especially gotten weaker with the loss of the players I mentioned whose best surfaces are HC( HC and clay in the case of soderling).

and now with Murray being subpar its that much weaker. It remains to be seen what Wawrinka will do since winning the AO. But even a strong Stan just replaces a diminished Murray, so you still essentially have a Big 4, then a precipitous drop.

I find it funny that you mention Soldering, Davedenko, Del potro, Nadalbandian and Roddick as your reasoning. These players (I will admit Roddick is a great player on hard court who happen to run into his worst matchup opponent Federer) are one slam wonder. Except Roddick, how many finals have they reached??? They are nowhere consistent and better than Djokovic and Murray at grandslam. So my point stands that the hard court field has not gotten worse.

SLD76 · Mar 9, 2014

Kenshin said:
I find it funny that you mention Soldering, Davedenko, Del potro, Nadalbandian and Roddick as your reasoning. These players (I will admit Roddick is a great player on hard court who happen to run into his worst matchup opponent Federer) are one slam wonder. Except Roddick, how many finals have they reached??? They are nowhere consistent and better than Djokovic and Murray at grandslam. So my point stands that the hard court field has not gotten worse.

ok, but what players currently on tour are as good as they even were?

Delpo and Roddick won slams.

Davydenko has won WTF. Davydenko also made alot of slam QFs, but he always ran into fed so bad luck him. Nalbandian has beaten Fed at the USO and won WTF. What have Berdych, Tsonga or Ferrer done in comparison??

Also, what part of 'outside of the Big 4 is weak' are you failing to understand?

You have responded twice to me and twice havent comprehended what I am saying.

Yes, we know Djoker and Murray and Nadal and Fed are good, the point is, outside of the Big 4 the top 10 is weaker than it has been and the HC field has significantly weakened in the past 4-5 years with the loss of the players I mentioned in my initial post. Factor in a post surgery Murray and the HC field has gotten that much weaker. And as I said, even if Stan goes on to be factor, he only replaces the spot vacated by Murray being subpar from surgery so we still essentially have the same situation of a strong 4, and the rest of the field weak in comparison.

Mustard · Mar 9, 2014

2009 Australian Open champion
2010 US Open champion
2013 US Open champion

2005 Canadian Open champion
2005 Madrid Indoor champion
2007 Indian Wells champion
2008 Canadian Open champion
2008 Beijing Olympic singles champion
2009 Indian Wells champion
2013 Indian Wells champion
2013 Canadian Open champion
2013 Cincinnati champion

Forehand Of Doom · Mar 9, 2014

Gorecki said:
Nadal is not overated in HC. he is however in Clay... a lot!!

Kenshin · Mar 9, 2014

SLD76 said:
ok, but what players currently on tour are as good as they even were?

Delpo and Roddick won slams.

Davydenko has won WTF. Davydenko also made alot of slam QFs, but he always ran into fed so bad luck him. Nalbandian has beaten Fed at the USO and won WTF. What have Berdych, Tsonga or Ferrer done in comparison??

Also, what part of 'outside of the Big 4 is weak' are you failing to understand?

You have responded twice to me and twice havent comprehended what I am saying.

Yes, we know Djoker and Murray and Nadal and Fed are good, the point is, outside of the Big 4 the top 10 is weaker than it has been and the HC field has significantly weakened in the past 4-5 years with the loss of the players I mentioned in my initial post. Factor in a post surgery Murray and the HC field has gotten that much weaker. And as I said, even if Stan goes on to be factor, he only replaces the spot vacated by Murray being subpar from surgery so we still essentially have the same situation of a strong 4, and the rest of the field weak in comparison.

What you fail to understand is you are somewhat trying to deminish Nadal's hard court success. Nadal is a great hard courter. He will probably end up in the top 10 in history. So, no he isn't overrated at all.

degrease · Mar 9, 2014

He has always been rated behind either fed or novak on hard courts which is fair. Overated is a stupid word to use when he has won Us open australian and indian wells.
Novak federer and Rafa are NOT overated. They are multi slam winners... end of convo

degrease · Mar 9, 2014

And WTF is indoor not hardcourt

Djokovic2011 · Mar 9, 2014

I wouldn't say Nadal is overrated or underrated on hardcourts, imo he's always been a decent player on the surface but nothing special. I have to say though that the amount of success he had during the summer of last year was strange. It reminded me of Superman 2 where the three villains take over the world after Superman[in this case Djokovic] loses all his powers and just stands by to watch it all unfold. Thankfully he regained his strength in Beijing and brought harmony back to the tour lol.

SLD76 · Mar 9, 2014

Kenshin said:
What you fail to understand is you are somewhat trying to deminish Nadal's hard court success. Nadal is a great hard courter. He will probably end up in the top 10 in history. So, no he isn't overrated at all.

I didnt say he is overrated, I said it didnt hurt that the HC field has weakened over the last few years.

And nobody with half a brain can honestly say it hasnt weakend the last few years.

mike danny · Mar 9, 2014

Def not overrated. Nadal has just 2 HC slams less than Novak. And already had 3 times as many HC slams as Murray.

Def one of the top 10 HC in history

FedererWinsWimbledon2014 · Mar 9, 2014

Since the 1990s Sampras, Agassi Djokovic and Fed have all won more HC slams than Nadal. Some see Nadal as greater than all them. So yes his HC stats are below the line.

In fact, I think they have all won more HC titles at a single slam than Nadal's total of three. (Agassi+Nole 4 AO and Fed+ Pete 5 US) Never mind the WTF.

Please to the trolls, don't bring up Fed. This thread is about Nadal.

SLD76 · Mar 9, 2014

FedererWinsWimbledon2014 said:
Since the 1990s Sampras, Agassi Djokovic and Fed have all won more HC slams than Nadal. Some see Nadal as greater than all them. So yes his HC stats are below the line.

In fact, I think they have all won more HC titles at a single slam than Nadal's total of three. (Agassi+Nole 4 AO and Fed+ Pete 5 US) Never mind the WTF.

Please to the trolls, don't bring up Fed. This thread is about Nadal.

...........but didnt you just?

I mean you??

0.o

Forehand Of Doom · Mar 9, 2014

Djokovic2011 said:
I wouldn't say Nadal is overrated or underrated on hardcourts, imo he's always been a decent player on the surface but nothing special. I have to say though that the amount of success he had during the summer of last year was strange. It reminded me of Superman 2 where the three villains take over the world after Superman[in this case Djokovic] loses all his powers and just stands by to watch it all unfold. Thankfully he regained his strength in Beijing and brought harmony back to the tour lol.

Or maybe it was more like Superman, when Lex Luthor (Djokovic) takes over the world, but then Superman (Nadal) shakes off his kryptonite and comes back like a boss.

Backspin1183 · Mar 9, 2014

Nadal already is an all time top 10 on hard court. Is that overrated? I don't think anyone's calling him the best hard court player of this era. Roger and Novak are more accomplished than him on cement. Nadal has however won all his hard court slams beating Roger or Novak in the final.

Forehand Of Doom · Mar 9, 2014

SLD76 said:
I didnt say he is overrated, I said it didnt hurt that the HC field has weakened over the last few years.

And nobody with half a brain can honestly say it hasnt weakend the last few years.

It has weakened? What hardcourt beasts have disappeared from the tour?

Backspin1183 · Mar 9, 2014

Forehand Of Doom said:
Or maybe it was more like Superman, when Lex Luthor (Djokovic) takes over the world, but then Superman (Nadal) shakes off his kryptonite and comes back like a boss.

Nadal definitely is the man of steel of tennis. Novak's the Green Lantern. And 2011 was the year the Green Lantern of tennis could create the kryptonite.
But son of Jor-el's returned from a time spent in the sun.

SLD76 · Mar 9, 2014

Forehand Of Doom said:
It has weakened? What hardcourt beasts have disappeared from the tour?

Delpo for one.

Backspin1183 · Mar 9, 2014

SLD76 said:
Delpo for one.

What has Delpo done on hard courts apart from the 2009 USO victory even when healthy? The guy isn't even good enough to win a Master 1000 and loses to guys like past prime Hewitt, Bautista Agut, etc. Del Potro is the overrated one.

Kenshin · Mar 9, 2014

SLD76 said:
Delpo for one.

Del potro who has won only one hard court grandslam title and has not reached any grand slam final since 2009. He has not won one masters 1000 title. And he is a beast on hard court???? If that is the reasoning, I can't take you seriously.

SLD76 · Mar 9, 2014

Kenshin said:
Del potro who has won only one hard court grandslam title and has not reached any grand slam final since 2009. He has not won one masters 1000 title. And he is a beast on hard court???? If that is the reasoning, I can't take you seriously.

I didnt say he is a beast, but he is certainly capable of beating top players on HC. That said, we dont know what delpo would be if he could stay healthy.

Davydenko is another good HCer lost due to health.

Backspin1183 · Mar 9, 2014

Kenshin said:
Del potro who has won only one hard court grandslam title and has not reached any grand slam final since 2009. He has not won one masters 1000 title. And he is a beast on hard court???? If that is the reasoning, I can't take you seriously.

I've never seen him/her post anything good about Nadal. Calling Nadal better than Roger and Novak on hard courts would be wrong but he's a great player himself on the hard surface.

Kenshin · Mar 9, 2014

SLD76 said:
I didnt say he is a beast, but he is certainly capable of beating top players on HC. That said, we dont know what delpo would be if he could stay healthy.

Davydenko is another good HCer lost due to health.

I agree about Del potro. I wish he was healthy after 2009. He could have troubled the top players. I disagree about Davydenko. I loved his game but he wasn't good enough to win the grandslams on hard.

Kenshin · Mar 9, 2014

Backspin1183 said:
I've never seen him/her post anything good about Nadal. Calling Nadal better than Roger and Novak on hard courts would be wrong but he's a great player himself on the hard surface.

Just don't take him seriously. There are a lot of posters like him hate Nadal because of the H2H. If he or she bugs you that much you can put him on ignore list if you want. Good to see you are passionate about Nadal.

Backspin1183 · Mar 9, 2014

Kenshin said:
Just don't take him seriously. There are a lot of posters like him hate Nadal because of the H2H. If he or she bugs you that much you can put him on ignore list if you want. Good to see you are passionate about Nadal.

I don't. I wouldn't take "Nadal is the GOAT" kind of posters seriously either.
Anyone who has had nothing good to say about x player just cannot be taken seriously whenever he talks about x player.

Is Nadal's HC success overrated?

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