One handed backhand practice - tips needed

heninfan99

Talk Tennis Guru
Closed stance doesn't limit racquet head speed which is one of the OP's key problems.
A different stance will not suddenly fix his racquet head speed issue.

Right now he's just guiding the ball but that's not due to his stance.

Anyways, there's enough free advice for him to pick through now. Hopefully he'll hit like Gasquet in a few weeks. :)

His stance on pic is extremely closed. Line connecting his both feet is almost parallel to the baseline as well. How you wanna look at it? As an extreme closed stance, or as a rotated normal closed stance, adjusted to hit DTL?
And as for admitting, I already did it in previous post. DTL really allows front foot parallel to the baseline without any limitation to rotating your body.
 
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racket king

Banned
Closed stance doesn't limit racquet head speed which is one of the OP's key problems.
A different stance will not suddenly fix his racquet head speed issue.

With the occasional exception, practically every 1HB you hit is technically a 'closed stance'. A closed stance doesn't have to limit racket head speed. A extreme closed stance doesn't have to limit racket head speed either (though there are other consequences that arise from that).

9 o'clock (extreme closed)
8s6okp5.png


However, the issue of variable stances and how it impacts on the learning process is an interesting one. I wouldn't teach or encourage a extreme closed stance to someone in the OP's circumstances who is at the stage where he's trying to develop a sound foundation to the backhand stroke because all it does is add another variable (and potential impediment) to what ideally would be a progressive learning process. You need to remember that's he trying to change his preparation and take back and having to develop a feel for timing and spacing as well as part of that change. Why add the complication of an extreme closed stance and reliance on upper body rotation, greater emphasis on upper body and shoulder strength and the release of the trailing leg when you don't have to? In my experience, students in this situation will learn faster if they're allowed to focus on less rather than more. He'd be far better off learning to step towards 11 rather than 9 or 10, with his weight transfer moving forwards. That for most people is easier and more natural.

11 o'clock (closed)
Sfhw2j1.png
 
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heninfan99

Talk Tennis Guru
You need to remember and acknowledge over-coaching. Over-coaching messes up many beginners. It is better to focus on just the main culprit for a while and not overload a student with too much.

A extremely closed stance doesn't have to limit racket head speed. However, the issue of variable stances and how it impacts on the learning process is an interesting one. I wouldn't teach or encourage a extreme closed stance to someone in the OP's circumstances who is at the stage where he's trying to develop a sound foundation to the backhand stroke because all it does is add another variable (and potential impediment) to what ideally would be a progressive learning process. You need to remember that's he trying to change his preparation and take back and having to develop a feel for timing and spacing as well as part of that change. Why add the complication of an extreme closed stance and reliance on upper body rotation, greater emphasis on upper body and shoulder strength and the release of the trailing leg when you don't have to? In my experience, students in this situation will learn faster if they're allowed to focus on less rather than more. He'd be far better off learning to step towards 11 rather than 9 or 10, with his weight transfer moving forwards. That for most people is easier more natural.
 

racket king

Banned
You need to remember and acknowledge over-coaching. Over-coaching messes up many beginners. It is better to focus on just the main culprit for a while and not overload a student with too much.

If anything this is under coaching and keeping everything as simple as possible....
 

heninfan99

Talk Tennis Guru
If anything this is under coaching and keeping everything as simple as possible....
You already acknowledged the stance has nothing to do with racquet head speed.
So I believe don't complicate things by bringing it up at this juncture.
So now he's worried about his stance which won't impact the main problem.
 

racket king

Banned
You already acknowledged the stance has nothing to do with racquet head speed.
So I believe don't complicate things by bringing it up at this juncture.
So now he's worried about his stance which won't impact the main problem.

He doesn't have to 'worry' about anything. If you look at his videos, he's stepping all over the place. Different from one stroke to the next. Keep your stance roughly the same and take out unnecessary variables. It's stepping all over the place with different stances than complicates everything at his stage of learning.

Ball speed is a product of the entire stroke and that starts with sound fundamentals for the entire stroke. Just because Stan can hit a 100mph BH from a extreme stance doesn't mean that you should assume that stepping all over the place and having different stances is the best way of learning for the OP and isn't necessarily a impediment to ball speed (it's not for Stan but it may be for the OP).
 

heninfan99

Talk Tennis Guru
I think you're being silly. Of course no one here will ever hit their one hander as well as The Stanimal.
The OP's stance are 31 seconds in is not too bad at all at this stage. The stance will not be an issue and AGAIN people hit from all kinds of stances in a match --that's tennis and is no way an impediment but a necessary part of playing the game.

His requested problem "I am trying to fix my backhand. I often feel I lack power." The lack of power is not due to the stance. Even wall hitting will force you to different positions eventually.

I would like to recommend for your viewing John Yandell's lecture from 2014 titled J Yandell GA Spec Course 4 Modern Extreme BH on YouTube. He concluded that the top players he studied, both two handed and one handed, will opt for a closed stance if they have the prep time to do so. He believes it is because of the superior uncoiling and shoulder turn the closed stance allows --that was his conclusion which is most interesting.

If you jump to 42:26 in you'll see Tommy Haas actually hop into closed stance rather than going for neutral.


Ball speed is a product of the entire stroke and that starts with sound fundamentals for the entire stroke. Just because Stan can hit a 100mph BH from a extreme stance doesn't mean that you should assume that stepping all over the place and having different stances is the best way of learning for the OP and isn't necessarily a impediment to ball speed (it's not for Stan but it may be for the OP).
 
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racket king

Banned
I think you're being silly. Of course no one here will ever hit their one hander as well as The Stanimal.
The OP's stance are 31 seconds in is not too bad at all at this stage. The stance will not be an issue and AGAIN people hit from all kinds of stances in a match --that's tennis and is no way an impediment but a necessary part of playing the game.

His requested problem "I am trying to fix my backhand. I often feel I lack power." The lack of power is not due to the stance. Even wall hitting will force you to different positions eventually.

I would like to recommend fpr your viewing John Yandell's lecture from 2014 titled J Yandell GA Spec Course 4 Modern Extreme BH on YouTube. He concluded that the top players he studied, both two handed and one handed, will opt for a closed stance if they have the prep time to do so. He believes it is because of the superior uncoiling and shoulder turn the closed stance allows --that was his conclusion which is most interesting.

If you jump to 42:26 in you'll see Tommy Haas actually hop into closed stance rather than going for neutral.

Silly is posting a video of someone trying to hit the ball with a towel and thinking that it's somehow useful...

You clearly haven't read or properly understood what I've posted.

If you think this is type of stepping is "not too bad at all" or represents anything close to the ideal conditions for developing sound fundamentals, you need to find yourself a reputable coach to properly teach you the 1HB because you clearly don't know what you're talking about.

k2dtFhA.jpg
 
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heninfan99

Talk Tennis Guru
No, you are still being silly. You talk of ideal conditions. There are no ideal conditions when playing tennis. Why would you ever think that?
That's the thing about tennis, as Nadal mentioned in his book, the ball is never exactly the same. There are no ideal conditions.

That action with the towel and frisbee throwing could help the OP with racquet head speed much more than you anal approach to a perfect stance that doesn't exist.
All you have is "I'm right because I say so." whereas I have posted photos and a lecture to support my view that a single idealized stance is wrong. Wrong for learning the game, wrong for helping this fellow and wrong for playing the game.

You are being trite and disingenuous, I only said the stance at 31 seconds in wasn't too bad and now suddenly I've endorsed the entire video. I'm not sure why you're so triggered of upset by the truth. You'll need to get over that to progress.

No offense but it seems like you know nothing about the game of tennis or how it is actually played but I wish you luck in getting up to speed.



Silly is posting a video of someone trying to hit the ball with a towel and thinking that it's somehow useful...

You clearly haven't read or properly understood what I've posted.

If you think this is type of stepping is "not too bad at all" or represents anything close to the ideal conditions for developing sound fundamentals, you need to find yourself a reputable coach to properly teach you the 1HB because you clearly don't know what you're talking about.
 
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racket king

Banned
No, you are still being silly. You talk of ideal conditions. There are no ideal conditions when playing tennis. Why would you ever think that?
That's the thing about tennis, as Nadal mentioned in his book, the ball is never exactly the same. There are no ideal conditions.

That at action with the towel and frisbee throwing could help the OP with racquet head speed much more than you anal approach to a perfect stance that doesn't exist.
All you have is "I'm right because I say so." whereas I have posted photos and a lecture to support my view that a single idealized stance is wrong. Wrong for learning the game, wrong for helping this fellow and wrong for playing the game.

Nadal's book, Yandell's videos, towells and frisbees.

You're another kiteboard.
 

heninfan99

Talk Tennis Guru
Nadal's book, Yandell's videos, towells and frisbees.

You're another kiteboard.
Well, sir, I will continue to learn from the greatest players of all time and Yandell's work where it makes sense to me. Keep pursuing an ideal stance and a world without variables. I'm sure you know more than Rafa & JY. ;)
 
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SoCal1

New User
@heninfan99 Dude, dude, dude...have you actually seen RK play? The guy is a ridiculously high level former college player with an awesome backhand who coaches. I play in a 4.5 league as I got a bagel'd when I hit with last year. Unless you're a 5.0+, you'd do well to put aside your ego and be more open minded to views other than your own.
 

heninfan99

Talk Tennis Guru
@heninfan99 Dude, dude, dude...have you actually seen RK play? The guy is a ridiculously high level former college player with an awesome backhand who coaches. I play in a 4.5 league as I got a bagel'd when I hit with last year. Unless you're a 5.0+, you'd do well to put aside your ego and be more open minded to views other than your own.
Lots of great athletes can't teach...at all. Plus that doesn't negate any of the points I've made which I have supported with photos of pros, video & etc.

And eh...dude, dude, dude I will post the best advice that is available in my own way if I so choose to, dude. Like understand, dude?!? :cool: If others wan't to attack, that's fine. You're going to have a myriad of opinions as almost no one agrees on everything in tennis.
 
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racket king

Banned
@heninfan99 Dude, dude, dude...have you actually seen RK play? The guy is a ridiculously high level former college player with an awesome backhand who coaches. I play in a 4.5 league as I got a bagel'd when I hit with last year. Unless you're a 5.0+, you'd do well to put aside your ego and be more open minded to views other than your own.

Unfortunately, being able to play doesn't seem to count for much on these boards. As long as you read Nadal's book, watch Yandell's videos, can throw a frisbee and have a high post count, you're qualified to be an internet armchair expert...
 

heninfan99

Talk Tennis Guru
Unfortunately, being able to play doesn't seem to count for much on these boards. As long as you read Nadal's book, watch Yandell's videos, can throw a frisbee and have a high post count, you're qualified to be an internet armchair expert...
You are very triggered. Over a stance disagreement? Again silliness.

And, actually, I do read all the books on tennis I can get a hold of, something I enjoy. Did you read Nadal's book? Half of it is very good, I think. Did you digest Yandell's entire video on the backhand? If not, why dismiss it out of hand?

You can easily put me on your ignore list if you feel my posts are so worthless, I promise not to care.
 

racket king

Banned
You are very triggered. Over a stance disagreement? Again silliness.

And, actually, I do read all the books on tennis I can get a hold of, something I enjoy. Did you read Nadal's book? Half of it is very good, I think. Did you digest Yandell's entire video on the backhand? If not, why dismiss it out of hand?

You can easily put me on your ignore list if you feel my posts are so worthless, I promise not to care.

I don't need to put on you on any ignore list. I'm just going laugh at your posts from now on because you're just another suresh/kiteboard clone.
 
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Chadillac

Guest
I don't need to put on you on any ignore list. I'm just going laugh at your kiteboard like posts now.

Your a very good player, you should be above this. Your need to prove yourself is very pushy as a pro (do it my way!!) and the need to pile on a player you can beat 6-0 isnt needed.

Your posts speak for them self. I think it was you that focused on the left foot on the 1h bh. I do the left shoulder but your tip maybe easier and more effective (especially during instruction)

Have some confidence in your knowledge (reactive posts), when you insult one lesser player you are insulting them all.
 

racket king

Banned
Your a very good player, you should be above this. Your need to prove yourself is very pushy as a pro (do it my way!!) and the need to pile on a player you can beat 6-0 isnt needed.

Your posts speak for them self. I think it was you that focused on the left foot on the 1h bh. I do the left shoulder but your tip maybe easier and more effective (especially during instruction)

Have some confidence in your knowledge (reactive posts), when you insult one lesser player you are insulting them all.

I'm not insulting him because he's a weaker player. I'm saying that reading Nadal's book, flicking towells and throwing frisebees is a load of nonsense in this context. Even the Yandell's video isn't on point. Only in the world virtual world of internet tennis where talking seems to count more than doing would anyone think different.
 
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Chadillac

Guest
Only in the world virtual world of internet tennis where talking seems to count more than doing would anyone think different.

Thats why giving a good tip is so gratifying here :) Its like solving a puzzle without actually seeing them (crapshoot), its a website, cant expect much
 
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Chadillac

Guest
That's what I'm quickly starting to realize. Shame really, because there's some good information buried particularly amongst the other posts. Those posters don't seem to post much anymore though.

Its actually very educational unless your a paper pro. Explaining things on the internet is much more challenging than grabbing them and showing. You have to use words, its improving my communication. I can fix someone's strokes in a matter of minutes but takes me a paragraph to explain a basic kick serve (talking 50mph, just focusing on arc and point elbow).

Even the best tip wont work for everyone, its like building the same house on different foundations.
 

zalive

Hall of Fame
@heninfan99
@racket king
You both know stuff and give good advices. And then you start to argue because of some differences in your personal approach. None of which is really important.
There's no least reason for any of you to be personal. And I think you agree on 100% when it comes to fundamental. So be sports and let's get over this, both of you. It's a shame when knowleadgeable players like you argue, instead of fulfilling a goal of helping players in need of help.

I guess everyone agrees OP author got the needed initial advices how to get things on the right track, now it's up to him to work on his stroke and afterwards he can put a vid of his progress, if he would like to do it.
 
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Chadillac

Guest
Hi all,
I am trying to fix my backhand. I often feel I lack power. I always thought I am not turning enough, but by looking at this video, it seems to me like I am turning too much. I don't know anymore. Please share your tips and problems you see here. I know I have too big loop :) But it seems to me this is not the reason why I lack the power, it should be opposite.
Anyway, I know wall is not ideal for this, but I guess some or most of my issues can be seen.
Be harsh.

Thanks in advance.


Look at your weight transfer and where the racket is finishing. Everything is going up or backwards.

Lean on your target and push your grip in that direction, let your wrist do whatever but arm has to go that way.

Never practice on a ball that bounces twice, it looses its liveliness/resistance.

I like the looseness in how you hit (wet noodle vs dry noodle). If your stroke has migrated north due to hitting long on court (was a wall no gauge), get dif strings.
 

heninfan99

Talk Tennis Guru
I'm not insulting him because he's a weaker player. I'm saying that reading Nadal's book, flicking towells and throwing frisebees is a load of nonsense in this context. Even the Yandell's video isn't on point. Only in the world virtual world of internet tennis where talking seems to count more than doing would anyone think different.
Listen it was said closed stance shouldn't be used by the OP as he learns, even the pros don't, then it became never have the front foot sideways.
I posted a pic of Gasquet showing he does just that...sometimes.

Then it was said closed stance is only for DTL. Then I posted a video of Tommy Haas jumping into closed stance in the middle of the baseline in a video where JY makes some interesting conclusions about the use of closed stance for backhands.

And so you call me Kiteboard who has a personal beef with JY and would prolly never recommend his stuff. :rolleyes:
Rather than name calling how about, ya know, making a logical point that disproves my position as I've deconstructed yours in defense. If it makes sense I would readily change my mind.
 

Mojo28

New User
Look at your weight transfer and where the racket is finishing. Everything is going up or backwards.

Lean on your target and push your grip in that direction, let your wrist do whatever but arm has to go that way.

Never practice on a ball that bounces twice, it looses its liveliness/resistance.

I like the looseness in how you hit (wet noodle vs dry noodle). If your stroke has migrated north due to hitting long on court (was a wall no gauge), get dif strings.

You mean to hit more forward than up?
What do you mean by north?

@heninfan99, @racket king:
First, I really appreciate advice from both of you. And actually, it seems to me that you actually both agree that I lack racquet head speed.
I wanted advice in general. Maybe I wasn't clear enough and was a bit thoughtless. I mentioned only lack of power, but I have many other issues.
I generally feel like I don't have control on my backhand, nowhere near forehand. I have timing issues. I don't have power on most of my BHs but in some cases, I can really rip it. Unfortunately, this is rare :p
I almost spent more hours watching youtube videos then playing tennis so I really want to keep things simple now. This is my plan (sorted by priority):
  1. faster preparation, smaller loop, bringing racquet almost straight back
    • it is funny actually how muscle memory burns into you. I tried to put racquet straight back. I felt like I am doing simple pendulum motion, but I actually still have loop, but much smaller one. This smaller loop somehow automatically forces me to swing my racquet faster, since I feel like my racquet path is much shorter. I feel like I am doing much more of a whip motion this way. I remember I read in some post some time ago, I believe it was geca who mentioned it: 'Try to hit the ball from inside like you want to do a sidespin'. This is exactly how I felt. It is like I am trying to sidespin it but it goes straight with topspin. I just hope that my path isn't too short now :D
  2. stepping more forward than sideways
I will try to incorporate this and record myself on wall soon. I wouldn't be too surpries to see that I feel different, but the motion is the same :D
 
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Chadillac

Guest
Listen it was said closed stance shouldn't be used, then it became never have the front foot sideways.
I posted a pic of Gasquet showing he does just that...sometimes.

Then it was said closed stance is only for DTL. Then I posted a video of Tommy Haas jumping into closed stance in the middle of the baseline in a video where JY makes some interesting conclusions about the use of closed stance for backhands.

The closed stance is always your optimal prep point because it allows you to hit "straight" in all directions (with timing). I have only watched live matches with gasquet, didnt break down, but i think he points his right toe more towards the net when hitting cross court. Always hits straight, just re aligns his body. Its much safer and gives more penetration.
 
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Chadillac

Guest
faster preparation, smaller loop, bringing racquet almost straight back
    • it is funny actually how muscle memory burns into you. I tried to put racquet straight back. I felt like I am doing simple pendulum motion, but I actually still have loop, but much smaller one. This smaller loop somehow automatically forces me to swing my racquet faster, since I feel like my racquet path is much shorter. I feel like I am doing much more of a whip motion this way. I remember I read in some post some time ago, I believe it was geca who mentioned it: 'Try to hit the ball from inside like you want to do a sidespin'. This is exactly how I felt. It is like I am trying to sidespin it but it goes straight with topspin. I just hope that my path isn't too short now :D
  1. stepping more forward than sideways
I will try to incorporate this and record myself on wall soon. I wouldn't be too surpries to see that I feel different, but the motion is the same :D

1 = fancy mubo jumbo. Just have racket prepared when the ball bounces on your side, if you wanna get tourney level have your prep ready when it crosses the net. How the racket goes back doesnt matter as much as how it comes foreward

2 = hard to gauge you may only want to step in because your on the wall dealing with double bouncers :)

The wall has nothing todo with your footwork because you know whats coming back.
 

racket king

Banned
Listen it was said closed stance shouldn't be used by the OP as he learns, even the pros don't, then it became never have the front foot sideways.
I posted a pic of Gasquet showing he does just that...sometimes.

Then it was said closed stance is only for DTL. Then I posted a video of Tommy Haas jumping into closed stance in the middle of the baseline in a video where JY makes some interesting conclusions about the use of closed stance for backhands.

And so you call me Kiteboard who has a personal beef with JY and would prolly never recommend his stuff. :rolleyes:
Rather than name calling how about, ya know, making a logical point that disproves my position as I've deconstructed yours in defense. If it makes sense I would readily change my mind.

...
 
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heninfan99

Talk Tennis Guru
The closed stance is always your optimal prep point because it allows you to hit "straight" in all directions (with timing). I have only watched live matches with gasquet, didnt break down, but i think he points his right toe more towards the net when hitting cross court. Always hits straight, just re aligns his body. Its much safer and gives more penetration.
This is what I'm seeing too.

My simple point on the OP vid was a lack of racquet head speed is the reason for his lack of power which is not contingent on a neutral stance.
 
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Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
[ Note for new readers - It is necessary for this analysis to understand the defined joint motions of internal shoulder rotation (ISR) and external shoulder rotation (ESR). The upper arm between the shoulder joint and elbow does not go anywhere, it just spins like a top around the upper arm's center line.]

Pictures of each frame of Mojo's video. The time scales are in milliseconds with "0" milliseconds being impact. -267 milliseconds is about 1/4 second before impact.

I point out differences between better high level strokes and the poster's strokes. A poster can select a high level stroke and copy it or use some other stroke model. Or, go with instruction or on their own without a model or instruction.

Mojo's ball is lower than Gasquet's. Compare similar ball heights for better analysis.

Frame at -267 ms. It looks as if at 267 milliseconds before impact the OP has turned his shoulders back to about the same angle as Gasquet has. Compare also shoulder turn angles at impact, at Frame -0 ms. The positions of the arms and rackets are different. Gasquet's racket has not come down and is still in front of his body. Is Mojo copying some other backhand stroke? Mojo has also done pronation to bring the racket down. Impression is that Mojo is doing his own thing. ? (To see angles more accurately, the cameras for both backhands need to view the players and courts from the same angle. Wear tight fitting clothes or a short sleeve shirt to better see the upper arm, elbow angle, etc.)
3599464


Frame at -233 ms. Mojo has brought his racket farther down. Gasquet's racket has gone up slightly. Mojo's elbow looks bent more and his upper arm (between the shoulder and elbow) has more downward rotation (ISR). Compare ISR angle to ISR angle as these frames progress.
3598368


Frame at -200 ms. Mojo's racket is still lowering and low. Gasquet's is just starting to lower.
3598367


Frame at -167 ms. Mojo's upper arm is down from the shoulder joint. Gasquet's upper arm is more across the chest.
3598366


Frame at -133 ms. Mojo's racket still lowering. Gasquet's now lowering with more rapid drop.
3598371


Frame at -100 ms. Mojo's upper arm is down at the chest. Gasquet's upper arm is more across the chest. Gasquet now appears to have started more upper body turn. I believe that to produce this early arm and racket acceleration that Gasquet is pressing hard on his upper arm with his chest powered by the forces of turning his upper body. If a credit card were between his chest and upper arm, would it be pressed tightly? How much upper arm pressing Mojo is doing this is not clear (due to the obscuring shirt and arm angle). But his upper body does not appear to be turning as rapidly.
3598370


Frame at -67 ms. The racket head speed developed by any rotation depends on the location of the axis of rotation and the distance out from that rotation axis. Look at the arm and racket angle and the distance out from the location of the rotation axis (guessed for now). It looks as if Mojo's arm angle is not favorable for racket head speed. Also, Mojo's racket is already much more rotated toward the ball trajectory. Gasquet's racket is >180° back from the ball's trajectory. Gasquet's upper arm is pressed to his chest as discussed.
3598369


Frame at -33 ms. Look at the racket to ball trajectory angle for Mojo, 45°? Look at the racket to trajectory angle for Gasquet still >180°. The total turns of Mojo's and Gasquet's upper bodies from Frame -267 ms seem somewhat similar, similar average speeds. The upper arm and racket have been used differently. Another motion - now look at the elbow bones and estimate the angular position of internal shoulder rotation, or axial rotation of the upper arm in the shoulder joint. Compare ESR from -33 ms to -0 ms.
3598373


Frame at -0 ms closest to impact. The big differences from Frame -33 ms to Frame -0 ms are the angular movement of Gasquet's racket and the much larger movement of his hand in the forward direction in comparison to Mojo. Also, Mojo's racket is open and Gasquet's is closed at impact. Possibly the ball height was a factor in how closed the racket was.? Now look at Gasquet's elbow bones and compare them to Frame -33 ms. Gasquet has done rapid external shoulder rotation (ESR) from Frame -33 ms to Frame -0 ms. That has moved the racket up and added to the topspin that the upward hand path already would have produce without ESR. Because Gasquet brought down his racket earlier with a near straight arm, it caused rapid ISR and pre-stretched his ESR muscles, he is using those stretched muscles in this frame. (Search the Stretch Shorten Cycle).
3598372


Frame at +33ms after impact. Mojo's hand and racket go more forward. Gasquet's goes more forward and up. ESR has continued.
3598375


Frame at +67 ms. Comparison of the follow throughs.
3599040


Video.
 
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jm1980

Talk Tennis Guru
I'm not. He's going for DTL, look where his back foot is. Relative to his back foot his front foot is open, even if it's parallel to the baseline.
However if I was completely precise in description, then yes, DTL allows both front foot parallel to the baseline and all the rotation you will ever need.
Yet, if you want to hide your intentions where the ball is going , to make it hard to your opponent to read from your stance, I'd still stick the front foot open and just rotate a bit less, or correct direction with not extending my wrist full.
Watch Wawrinka hit some of his backhands at around 0:56


His stance here is extremely closed and the balls are going CC

2t2PWdM.jpg
 

Limpinhitter

G.O.A.T.
Hi all,
I am trying to fix my backhand. I often feel I lack power. I always thought I am not turning enough, but by looking at this video, it seems to me like I am turning too much. I don't know anymore. Please share your tips and problems you see here. I know I have too big loop :) But it seems to me this is not the reason why I lack the power, it should be opposite.
Anyway, I know wall is not ideal for this, but I guess some or most of my issues can be seen.
Be harsh.

Thanks in advance.


Power on the backhand comes from the same source that power on the forehand and the serve come from - simultaneous rotation of the upper body back and forth, and the arm back and forth. Both of these rotations are basically parallel to the ground. Your massively over-exaggerated loop in your back swing is killing your upper body rotation, arm rotation, and racquet head speed. Your hand is actually going over your head on your backswing and your racquet head is 2 feet higher than that. The swing path of your hand in the back swing should be much more parallel to the ground. A little loop of the racquet head (not the hand), is okay.

In my view, Stefan Edberg had one of the greatest 1hb's of all time, great technique, and an excellent stroke to emulate. In the video below, notice the simultaneous rotation - back and forth - of his upper body and his arm at the same time. On the take back, he turns his back to the target and pronates his arm. Notice how parallel to the ground the path of his hand is on the take back. On the forward swing, he rotates back so that he chest is now facing the target, and, at the same time, supinates his arm accelerating the racquet head into the ball.


Another great 1hb was Ivan Lendl's:


Comparison of Edberg, Lendl and Federer backhands (please excuse the cheesy music):


PS: Stefan Edberg Backhand Series 1:

 
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zalive

Hall of Fame
Watch Wawrinka hit some of his backhands at around 0:56


His stance here is extremely closed and the balls are going CC

2t2PWdM.jpg
.

I know this. It's just that some other top onehanders do DTL's with front foot parallel to the baseline because it won't limit the rotation as you don't need as much as for a CC. While you can do it like Wawrinka, always placing front foot diagonally, which seems more simple and effective.
 

GuyClinch

Legend
Whoa..

This is a ferocious kinda angry thread..

Best tips for backhand I have found is to thinking about throwing the racquet around you while at the same time allowing your hand to rotate up..
Its not a leg drive thing - its a relaxation thing. OP is muscling the racquet rather then allowing the racquet to be flung around him..

Here is a simple example of what I am talking about..


But he doesn't really describe how to hit a perfect one hander.. just the feeling of the throwing aspect.

Kevin Garlington in my view has some of the best backhand videos - strangely enough..

 

Mojo28

New User
Hello once again.
I've been trying to work on my BH, but it seems to me that it didn't improve much :D
It is funny how I have a total different picture in my mind than my real stroke. I thought that I shortened the loop and preparation, but I took a video of myself yesterday and I couldn't be more wrong. It looked the same as before. Then I tried to hit some more again and record it. Still seems pretty similar to before, but I think I managed to get into ready position faster. Even thought, I still have the same exaggerated loop in the end. However, I am more and more optimistic about this since I realize if I record myself often, I can easier fix the stroke. Here are the results. What do you think? Still pretty much the same?


Also, this time I have recordings of my BH slice as well. What do you think about it? Some days I feel very confident, some days it falls apart and then most of the shots look like second one in video. I am trying to keep my wrist fixed during the stroke and this helped me a lot recently I think. It seems to me that I have similar problem with too big of a backswing in slice as well. What is your opinion?

 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
In your drive video you take the racket back and then lower it. Look at the racket angle to the ground. You lower the racket more parallel to the ground, not as Gasquet does in our earlier comparison. He rotates it down causing internal shoulder rotation (upper arm bone rotates at the shoulder joint). [Internal shoulder rotation is called medial shoulder rotation in many European countries, the upper arm bone rotates around its long axis that runs end to end of the humerus bone.]

You can pick a different backhand drive as a model other than Gasquet's. If you have another compare your parallel to the ground racket bring down to rotating the arm with the off arm to lower the racket.

I pick well known strong model backhands - Gasquet, Wawrinka and Henin - and don't study the other backhand techniques that may be out there. I also do not study the effects of very high or low balls on the racket. Also, the one hand backhand stroke I use for comparisons is for heavy paced drives.

It does look as if your chest is pressed to your upper arm as I believe Gasquet, Wawrinka and Henin do for strong drives. But that has to be felt also as the camera cannot show the forces between the chest and upper arm.
 
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onehandbh

G.O.A.T.
i know this stuff:

My tendon-C is to use my tendons when swinging a racquet.

I tried hitting a serve without using any of my ligaments or tendons. NOTHING moved!!!! ZERO mph.
 

Mojo28

New User
In your drive video you take the racket back and then lower it. Look at the racket angle to the ground. You lower the racket more parallel to the ground, not as Gasquet does in our earlier comparison. He rotates it down causing internal shoulder rotation (upper arm bone rotates at the shoulder joint). [Internal shoulder rotation is called medial shoulder rotation in many European countries, the upper arm bone rotates around its long axis that runs end to end of the humerus bone.]

You can pick a different backhand drive as a model other than Gasquet's. If you have another compare your parallel to the ground racket bring down to rotating the arm with the off arm to lower the racket.

I pick well known strong model backhands - Gasquet, Wawrinka and Henin - and don't study the other backhand techniques that may be out there. I also do not study the effects of very high or low balls on the racket. Also, the one hand backhand stroke I use for comparisons is for heavy paced drives.

It does look as if your chest is pressed to your upper arm as I believe Gasquet, Wawrinka and Henin do for strong drives. But that has to be felt also as the camera cannot show the forces between the chest and upper arm.

At first, I didn't quite understand what you mean, but I think I do now. You are saying I am lowering racquet too soon? Also, it seems to me I take it back and around (too far behind my back) instead just back. Maybe this is the cause of the issue you mention.
My favorite model for BH is Haas. I like this video:
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
................ You are saying I am lowering racquet too soon? .............................

No.

Look at the shaft of your racket in post #96 drives. Look at the angle your shaft forms to the ground as you bring it down ready to swing forward. Yours stays parallel to the ground as is comes down.

Just stand there and rotate the near straight arm and racket down using the off arm.

Gasquet and Haas etc. rotate the near straight arm. Look at all the Gasquet frames in post #90. You will see that Gasquet's racket does not stay parallel to the ground; it rotates as it comes down. Haas's racket also rotates down.

Gasquet does ISR and then around impact he can do external shoulder rotation (ESR). He is using these motions as part of his stroke.

You have to search the term internal shoulder rotation (ISR). Search: internal shoulder rotation Youtube. (Note- the shoulder does not move anywhere when ISR is done - the upper arm bone, Humerus, rotates in the shoulder joint.) Often people are completely unaware of this joint movement - ISR - that simply rotates a bone in the joint. Search external shoulder rotation also.

The clearest information is in carefully comparing two videos. Look carefully for all differences. Some may not matter...?
 
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Mojo28

New User
Aha, ok. Now I get it. I hold it parallel to the ground almost entirely from start of forward swing. On forward swing, my hand should actually go straight only basically, with ISR/ESR doing the job, right?
 

Nostradamus

Bionic Poster
That's the internet I guess - different opinions everywhere. In any event, we only have differing views on the degree to which the legs contribute to power and that's a pointless debate.

I'll leave you with this though. Where's the 'explosive leg drive' (as opposed to length strength and lower body stability) in the videos below, and we're talking elite level players here...





And here's an absolute bullet of a BH winner...

Do not copy Gasquet,, no matter how beautiful and mesmorizing it is. It leads to bad habits for ALL amateur players. he uses way too much wrist,,,only his Crazy god like talent makes it all work
 

Mojo28

New User
I'll try to copy Haas. He seems to have fairly simple BH motion and still uses (or used it) very effectively.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Aha, ok. Now I get it. I hold it parallel to the ground almost entirely from start of forward swing. On forward swing, my hand should actually go straight only basically, with ISR/ESR doing the job, right?

That is what I saw, you hold the racket parallel coming down...... Your racket is brought down differently than Gasquet's for your backhand in the video of post #96.

I did not notice how straight your racket hand went or should go, straight or otherwise. Look at videos of similar height balls for your goal backhand to see hand path.

ISR/ESR does a job, yes. ESR adds Topspin I believe. Pace?

You will have to time the exact "start of the forward swing'' relative to how the racket is brought down and its variations, as I don't know. Sometimes I think the racket is brought down first and then the forward swing starts.? Timing? Don't use words..... I don't believe in translating high speed videos into words...'start this after that' ....you might lose something. See high speed videos with small motion blur for timing details. Look at a number of videos of high level backhands to see how the hand goes, straight or otherwise, and how it adjusts for ball height and shot pace.

If you look at Gasquet around forward start you will see first ISR with off hand on the racket and then later, there's ESR around and following impact. Use high speed video of Haas's backhand and see how he is doing it for a hard drive.

I see similarities for Gasquet, Wawrinka and Henin on this part of their hard backhand drives. There are different pace backhands so there are probably backhand differences used also.

The body turn as seen at the upper body is a separate issue important for pace.
 
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racket king

Banned
Do not copy Gasquet,, no matter how beautiful and mesmorizing it is. It leads to bad habits for ALL amateur players. he uses way too much wrist,,,only his Crazy god like talent makes it all work

I've never said 'copy Gasquet'. I simply posted a series of videos of elite level players and asked for evidence of an 'explosive leg drive.'
 

Nostradamus

Bionic Poster
I've never said 'copy Gasquet'. I simply posted a series of videos of elite level players and asked for evidence of an 'explosive leg drive.'
also do not copy Federer's slice backhand,,, Worst technique ever in history of tennis. amateurs can't even hope to copy it
 
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