How does racket mass affect spin?

gplracer · Jul 21, 2017

I know a heavier racket has more mass. I also know that a racket with more mass when swung at a speed the same as a lower mass racket will have more power. That is if all other things such as string patter, length of the racket, racket composition, and stiffness are the same.

How does a higher mass affect spin? For instance the PS97 vs RF97? Granted the PS97 has a stiffness of 66 and the RF97 has a stiffness of 68. I would assume that right away would give the RF97 more power and spin. I do not know how much of a difference. My son who is 6'2" swears he gets more spin with the RF97. He says for him it has more power and is easier to keep the ball in.

I said so much..... back to the original question
How does a higher mass affect spin?

gplracer · Jul 21, 2017

Interesting reading but no info on ball speed. http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/learning_center/racquetweighting.php

TheRasha · Jul 21, 2017

Maybe is dwell time reason

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Mac33 · Jul 21, 2017

I get by far the most spin with my Prince Silver oversize 118 - especially on my double handed backhand.

A light racquet should make it easier to use more wrist for sure.

Lowest spin frames - the Babolat Pure Strike Tour and the Yonex Tour G 330g

Backhanded Compliment · Jul 21, 2017

mass helps the stick win the resulting collision with the ball but its really the swingpath of the stick and the way the stick deforms at impact (sucking off power) that effect the spin. Speed of swing on that path as well.

...strings are also part of the equation but path, speed and mass effect them as well.

My angell TC95 16x19 is heavy at 360g and flexy at 58ra but is very spin friendly (9pts hl too)... thin beam too 20mm (19 at tip)

gplracer · Jul 21, 2017

I guess all things have to be consistent too. More mass will only give more power and more spin when it is swung at the same speed as a racket with a lower mass. Some people do not have efficient strokes or as not as strong so they cannot swing a heavier racket at the same speed. Thus they might have less spin and power with a racket that has too much mass for their swing path.

gplracer · Jul 21, 2017

Mac33 said:
I get by far the most spin with my Prince Silver oversize 118 - especially on my double handed backhand.

A light racquet should make it easier to use more wrist for sure.
Lowest spin frames - the Babolat Pure Strike Tour and the Yonex Tour G 330g

I bet that racket has more spacing between the strings. That would give more spin as well.

LeeD · Jul 21, 2017

More mass hit's harder, but only if the swingpath is THROUGH the ball. When it's used to create spin, mass is less important, as it's not a direct swingpath, the collision is not as great, and it's possible a racket with more mass might create a slower swing speed.
CORRECT mass is best matched to the individual player. Too much is not good, too little is also not good.

WarrenMP · Jul 21, 2017

Mass makes the strings work more, which can result in more spin

LeeD · Jul 21, 2017

More mass is worthless.
Less mass is worthless.
Correct mass, matched to the individual player, is priceless.

gplracer · Jul 21, 2017

You are correct LeeD. I think greater mass is good if you can swing it as well as lower mass. That said many times players try to play with heavier frames because "their guy" plays with it. Granted we are Federer fans but I grew up playing with Wilson as well as both of my boys. My club is also an exclusive Wilson dealer. Bottom line... we love Wilson.

I do have reservations about my son playing with the RF97 but he is 6'2" and just turned 15 so he is still growing. Also, he has played tennis since he was 3. Dad already makes too many decisions for him. I am letting him make this one. Besides he has 5 PS97 rackets to fall back on.

BlueB · Jul 21, 2017

If you made all the factors constant, like you scientifically should, including the swing path, the racquet weight that you can swing the fastest would hit the most spin.
Now, if you could swing a heavy one as fast as a lighter one, heavy would induce more spin.

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gplracer · Jul 21, 2017

Honestly I think my son swings almost as fast but not quite as fast and he gets more spin. Any less racket head speed and it would go the other way. He says he does not have to swing as hard to get the same result.

MajesticMoose · Jul 21, 2017

Take a "spinny" frame like the Pure Aero. Test one at stock weight and then test it when it's modded to 12.5 oz and the spin will probably be more or less the same.

So I don't think more mass affects the frame's ability to generate more spin.

gplracer · Jul 21, 2017

I have two Pure Aero's here. They do produce a lot of spin and without much mass. Maybe there is something else at play as well. The Pure Aero made my elbow hurt so bad I had to get a cortisone shot. After that I went back to Wilson. I do not know why my arm did not like that racket. My older son played with them for a while when he was a junior.

MajesticMoose · Jul 21, 2017

gplracer said:
I do not know why my arm did not like that racket

Any Babolat other than the Pure Storm/Controls = stiff as hell

That's why your arm didn't like the racquet.

LeeD · Jul 21, 2017

gplracer said:
You are correct LeeD. I think greater mass is good if you can swing it as well as lower mass. That said many times players try to play with heavier frames because "their guy" plays with it. Granted we are Federer fans but I grew up playing with Wilson as well as both of my boys. My club is also an exclusive Wilson dealer. Bottom line... we love Wilson.

I do have reservations about my son playing with the RF97 but he is 6'2" and just turned 15 so he is still growing. Also, he has played tennis since he was 3. Dad already makes too many decisions for him. I am letting him make this one. Besides he has 5 PS97 rackets to fall back on.

Kid's arms are more resilient, haven't been injured as much, and they're just generally more like rubber bands.

MajesticMoose · Jul 21, 2017

Once you start hitting your mid 20s, you start realizing you need to get away from super stiff racquets but mainly getting away from stiff polys more than anything.

gplracer · Jul 21, 2017

Agreed, I am 51 and I have played since I was 6. I have gut/poly in mine.

Dedans Penthouse · Jul 21, 2017

LeeD said:
More mass is worthless.
Less mass is worthless.
Correct mass, matched to the individual player, is priceless.

" The first racquet had too much mass,
and the second racquet had too little mass,
but the third racquet was just right.."

some uncanny insight there . . . . lmao...

Sambuccashake · Jul 21, 2017

If you drop a ball and hit it, weight of the racquet is less important. You will get the same result with both types if the swing speed is the same.

But if you actually play tennis, you will encounter incoming heavy projectiles.

This is when mass is important.

LeeD · Jul 21, 2017

Dedans Penthouse said:
" The first racquet had too much mass,
and the second racquet had too little mass,
but the third racquet was just right.."

some uncanny insight there . . . . lmao...

Yup, age old, and yet people STILL ask if more mass hit's with more spin, without regards to the rest of the factors.

Shroud · Jul 21, 2017

Willing to bet i have hit with a larger weight range than most here hitting with 9 oz frames to 16oz+ frames. I dont notice much difference at all in spin. But i do notice a heavier ball with heavier frames. Maybe its technique related but i never saw that the "lighter racquet creates more rhs and therefore more spin" camp was actually right.

SpinToWin · Jul 22, 2017

The swing produces spin. If you can swing faster with the lighter frame, you're probably creating more spin. The question remains whether you can keep that fast swing under control and have depth/pace on the shot all the same.

Irvin · Jul 22, 2017

I don't think mass is a big contributing factor on spin. Technique is the single biggest factor IMO. That being said to get the most out of your racket it should but tuned to you, and for a given mass you should have a certain balance to inertia ratio. Think MgR/I. In general the greater the mass the slower the swing speed and the less spin you will have.

tennisBIEST · Jul 22, 2017

This is an interesting discussion...much like what Nadal had apparently gone thru...spin is important to wider our margin over the net but if too much rpms leave the ball short then it's important to add mass to get depth as STW suggests. Depth is king! The heaviest racquet "you" can control is optimal.

Karma Tennis · Jul 22, 2017

gplracer said:
I said so much..... back to the original question
How does a higher mass affect spin?

The higher mass allows the incoming tennis ball to be more greatly deformed at impact with the string bed. This greater ball deformation occurs because the string bed "grips" the ball more, so the frictional forces that create the ball spin will be greater, meaning that the spin potential will be higher.

More mass means greater spin potential.

BlueB · Jul 22, 2017

Karma Tennis said:
The higher mass allows the incoming tennis ball to be more greatly deformed at impact with the string bed. This greater ball deformation occurs because the string bed "grips" the ball more, so the frictional forces that create the ball spin will be greater, meaning that the spin potential will be higher.

More mass means greater spin potential.

Yes, only if one can swing that heavier racquet as fast as the lighter one, then the mass will prevail.

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WarrenMP · Jul 22, 2017

One thing I noticed with people trying to figure out what produces more spin or power do it base on feel. The best way to know is try to make it scientific and test out various set up with the same racquet if possible. Try to formalize it as much as you can. It is usually clear what works best for you doing it with that approach.

Ruark · Jul 22, 2017

We keep talking about light rackets being faster... but the OP said all other factors were the same, including speed. So, two identical shots - same angle, speed, stiffness, everything, the only difference being the mass, say a 12 oz vs a 9 oz racket. How will it affect spin? Interesting question.

GBplayer · Jul 22, 2017

Ruark said:
We keep talking about light rackets being faster... but the OP said all other factors were the same, including speed. So, two identical shots - same angle, speed, stiffness, everything, the only difference being the mass, say a 12 oz vs a 9 oz racket. How will it affect spin? Interesting question.

Everything else being equal, more spin.

Moveforwardalways · Jul 22, 2017

MajesticMoose said:
Once you start hitting your mid 20s, you start realizing you need to get away from super stiff racquets but mainly getting away from stiff polys more than anything.

Yeah dude. Mid 20s is like old man senior tennis playing with walking canes and stuff. You can rip up your arm playing with polys in your mid 20s... just ask those guys you see on TV.

Karma Tennis said:
The higher mass allows the incoming tennis ball to be more greatly deformed at impact with the string bed. This greater ball deformation occurs because the string bed "grips" the ball more, so the frictional forces that create the ball spin will be greater, meaning that the spin potential will be higher.

More mass means greater spin potential.

This is correct, assuming racquet head speed is the same with the heavier racquet.

Ruark · Jul 22, 2017

Irvin said:
..the greater the mass the slower the swing speed and the less spin you will have.

But if, speed being equal, greater mass produces more spin, should it balance out? That is, if greater mass produces more spin, then a heavier racket can travel at a lower speed than a lighter racket to produce the same spin.

Maybe those guys on Mythbusters can check this out....

GBplayer · Jul 22, 2017

Ruark said:
But if, speed being equal, greater mass produces more spin, should it balance out? That is, if greater mass produces more spin, then a heavier racket can travel at a lower speed than a lighter racket to produce the same spin.

Maybe those guys on Mythbusters can check this out....

Would seem reasonable as the heavier racquet would have the same energy at a lower velocity.

BlueB · Jul 23, 2017

GBplayer said:
Would seem reasonable as the heavier racquet would have the same energy at a lower velocity.

Yes, if we were talking pace only. However, the spin is a different animal. The mass only helps to prevent the racquet from de-accelerating at impact, to allow more of the RHS to be transfered into the rotation of the ball.

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Irvin · Jul 23, 2017

Ruark said:
But if, speed being equal, greater mass produces more spin, should it balance out? That is, if greater mass produces more spin, then a heavier racket can travel at a lower speed than a lighter racket to produce the same spin.

Maybe those guys on Mythbusters can check this out....

Mass does not produce spin. Racket speed, string to ball friction, and the angle at which the ball is struck produces spin. But if you believe you can add mass to a racket and speed it up, or mass produces more spin, or any other goofy myths go ask myth busters. http://www.discovery.com/tv-shows/mythbusters/about-this-show/mythbusters-submit-a-myth/

Fireball · Jul 23, 2017

gplracer said:
How does a higher mass affect spin?

Everything else being equal (stiffness, strings, rhs, angle etc) it should be possible to get more spin with at heavier racket since it's less affected by the incoming ball.
Of course everything will never be equal ... so it's really a individual thing.

In the end of the day I want the racket which suits my game. The combination of power, spin potential and launch angle that let me play my "natural" strokes.
If the racket "have" to much spin I would lose depth and I would have to hit a loopier than I want to in order to correct that ...
a racket which give me to little spin would force me to reduce height or speed on my shots avoid hitting long ...

PMChambers · Jul 23, 2017

If the increased mass resulting increase in Twist Weight, IE mass 3 & 9. It will produce more spin away from the centre. The racquet will resist twisting more with off centre hits and keep the plane of attack consistent, the downside is its harder the racquet will resist changes in direction. Up to individual what they prefer. Federer changed from 90 to 97 was for this reason, increase stability, though the 97 has longer mains which helps spin. Raffa has lower TW and SW but mitigates against off centre hits by playing very deep where he can predict the flight path and centre bal morel. Djokovic has greatest mass and TW which allows him to play close to baseline but with reduced spin.
If your not centering the ball added mass at 3 & 9 should assist but could result in reduced RHS.

Irvin · Jul 23, 2017

PMChambers said:
If the increased mass resulting increase in Twist Weight, IE mass 3 & 9. It will produce more spin away from the centre. The racquet will resist twisting more with off centre hits and keep the plane of attack consistent,

Adding a few grams at 3 and 9 (say 5 g each side) will do little to keep the frame from twisting as it only adds about 2 Kgcm^2 to TW, but that same mass lows the racket down a great deal by 18 Kgcm^2 to SW and in addition to that moves the center of mass about 1/2 cm up on the racket. Raising the COM and SW does a lot to slow down the racket, and the speed of the racket has a lot to do with spin.

EDIT: And if you hit the ball in the center of the frame adding mass at 3&9 does nothing to keep the frame from twisting.

GBplayer · Jul 23, 2017

BlueB said:
Yes, if we were talking pace only. However, the spin is a different animal. The mass only helps to prevent the racquet from de-accelerating at impact, to allow more of the RHS to be transfered into the rotation of the ball.

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So if it deforms less and decelerates less, more spin so long as the racquet is brushing up on the ball?

BlueB · Jul 23, 2017

GBplayer said:
So if it deforms less and decelerates less, more spin so long as the racquet is brushing up on the ball?

As long as the racquet head speed is not slower with heavier racquet.

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GBplayer · Jul 23, 2017

BlueB said:
As long as the racquet head speed is not slower with heavier racquet.

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That would seem correct.

Presumably you could swing slower and get the same spin.

BlueB · Jul 23, 2017

GBplayer said:
That would seem correct.

Presumably you could swing slower and get the same spin.

Not really. The RHS is the king.

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Shroud · Jul 23, 2017

BlueB said:
Not really. The RHS is the king.

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Hey dude thats the common wisdom but man i could never get that to work out well- light racquet and faster swing. Maybe there was more spin but the ball wasnt heavy at all.

BlueB · Jul 23, 2017

Shroud said:
Hey dude thats the common wisdom but man i could never get that to work out well- light racquet and faster swing. Maybe there was more spin but the ball wasnt heavy at all.

That's fair enough, the mass can easily translate to pace. However, the OP was about spinn only.

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TennisCJC · Jul 23, 2017

My experience is I get more spin when I go up to about 335 SW. Most stock rackets are below this level so I add weight. It feels like more mass reverses the incoming spin and pace more easily when I am returning good shots and when I get a a shot that allows me to swing aggressively, it generates more power and spin. I would think there's a point where it would begin to reduce spin if it gets too heavy and that probably differs from person to person.

fuzz nation · Jul 23, 2017

Ruark said:
We keep talking about light rackets being faster... but the OP said all other factors were the same, including speed. So, two identical shots - same angle, speed, stiffness, everything, the only difference being the mass, say a 12 oz vs a 9 oz racket. How will it affect spin? Interesting question.

Good point - it's easy to assume that we can simply swing faster with a lighter racquet to compensate for the reduced mass in hand that commands the ball. For me, the lighter gear just doesn't deliver and I think it's because of my natural swing tempo. I'm used to engaging my "kinetic chain" at a certain speed while using perhaps a 12.6 oz. frame. But when I switch to a significantly lighter racquet, I can't magically swing it a lot faster to produce the same shots with the same degree of control.

Yes, lighter racquets can be used by some players to take monstrous rips on the ball, but those players have built their swing mechanics while using those racquets throughout many hours of practice. Their personal "normal" is a different swing tempo than mine.

Shroud said:
Hey dude thats the common wisdom but man i could never get that to work out well- light racquet and faster swing. Maybe there was more spin but the ball wasnt heavy at all.

Yep, I think I was sort of getting at this above. It's tricky to assume that a faster swing with a lighter rig will actually work. A few years ago when I got some lighter racquets - over an ounce lighter than my regular players at that time - the biggest difference I found was that the zip on my serve noticeably dropped. My motion is rather solid, but trying to hit harder serves with lighter racquets only strained my shoulder. It was sort of like trying to use the effort I'd need to throw a baseball, but using that much oomph to sling a whiffle ball.

GBplayer · Jul 23, 2017

BlueB said:
Not really. The RHS is the king.

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No logic in what you say.

BlueB · Jul 24, 2017

GBplayer said:
No logic in what you say.

There's plenty of logic, but you want to belive something else...

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GBplayer · Jul 24, 2017

BlueB said:
There's plenty of logic, but you want to belive something else...

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You agree that two racquets identical in all but mass, swung identically, the one with more mass would create more spin provided it was swung in a way that induces spin.

This means that the racquet with more mass would have to be swung slower to create the same spin as the lighter racquet.

How does racket mass affect spin?

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