The most glaring deficiency of rec players

Deleted member 23235 · Dec 11, 2017

rogerroger917 said:
No. I've actually done this against 4.0 male adults. Sure I can't walk the whole match but the majority of the time I am walking. I would not lose against a 4.0 doing this. I'm too consistent and can hit a decent ball even walking through my shots. If you are a 5.0 ish player try it. It works against 4.0 players.

I'm telling you it can be done. You have way more time than you think you do.

Obviously I split step and do all that stuff but in most adult rec tennis you do not need to.

I agree with you,...

...but if you’re talking about handicapping yourself and playing down a level or two, then i could also:
*play with my opposite hand
*force myself to do a 360 prior to every groundstroke
*play anything inside the doubles alley (in singles)
*etc,...
and I could still beat some low 3.5s,... or at least make it competitive...

roddick played with a frying pan...

bottom line is that folks that don’t split because “they don’t need to” are one or all:
*out of shape
*dont know how to
*lazy

S&V-not_dead_yet · Dec 11, 2017

sureshs said:
Do you think split-stepping helps below the 4.5 level? From my observations, no.

I think not only is it foundational but if someone waits until they make it to 4.5 before they start implementing it, it's too late.

rogerroger917 · Dec 11, 2017

nytennisaddict said:
I agree with you,...

bottom line is that folks that don’t split because “they don’t need to” are one or all:
*out of shape
*dont know how to
*lazy

Yeah then you are describing Suresh.

But He is right. In 3.5 and 4.0 he does not need to split step. The ball is slow enough. And if you get a 4.0 basher he won't keep it in the court enough to matter.

S&V-not_dead_yet · Dec 11, 2017

Rubens said:
I noticed that if you let the ball bounce twice, there's no need for split step.

That's genius! Email Thomas Daniels and see if he'll add it to his course.

S&V-not_dead_yet · Dec 11, 2017

rogerroger917 said:
I'm not joking. I'm not sure if you are. I know this 60 year old coach that used to play doubles on the pro tour. No real success. But he can beat every club player still. He gives lessons and I watch him literally walking around the court in the rallies against the 4.0 club guys.

I believe that's what's called an outlier. Yes, he can pull it off. Would I advise the average rec player to use this strategy? No. He's winning in spite of his walking, not because of it. Just like @oserver can spin 360 degrees after a serve and still beat his opponent. The spin move is not the source of his victory [although it sure enhanced @Shroud's game!].

And while you may have pulled it off at 4.0, I'd imagine it would get more and more difficult the better your opponent. I don't think there's a magic Rubicon that divides 4.0 and 4.5 so I'd advise someone to learn the fundamentals that the high-level players are using [assuming they are physically capable].

S&V-not_dead_yet · Dec 11, 2017

heninfan99 said:
Well yeah. It's been proven. One major difference between college and pro players is the # of steps per ball.
For rec players, we might take no steps at all or utilize a single well-planed giant step.

"That's many small steps for high-level players, one giant leap for rec-kind."

S&V-not_dead_yet · Dec 11, 2017

rogerroger917 said:
No. I've actually done this against 4.0 male adults. Sure I can't walk the whole match but the majority of the time I am walking. I would not lose against a 4.0 doing this. I'm too consistent and can hit a decent ball even walking through my shots. If you are a 5.0 ish player try it. It works against 4.0 players.

I'm telling you it can be done. You have way more time than you think you do.

Obviously I split step and do all that stuff but in most adult rec tennis you do not need to.

I'm not arguing that it can't be done. I'm arguing that it's not wise because it habituates you to not doing it. Then when you do face stiffer competition, you may be unable to simply "turn it on".

Using a 5.0 vs a 4.0 as proof is invalid because the 5.0 is two levels above the 4.0; there are many things the 5.0 can get away with not doing and still win.

You previously stated you were undefeated against all 3.5 - 4.5 comers for the last x years [5?]. OK, so that means you are better than just about any 4.0 you play which means you can also get away with not split-stepping. Would you do that against an equally-skilled opponent?

S&V-not_dead_yet · Dec 11, 2017

atp2015 said:
IMO, it's the footwork that's just painfully horrible to the eyes. Even at 4.5, I see players with just extremely lazy footwork. No split step, no drop step, no rhythm shuffle steps and no small adjustment steps to name just a few. I would think it's fairly simple to learn the footwork compared to serve and topspin forehand. And we know footwork makes a huge difference. Why is it that rec players execute no/very minimal tennis specific footwork? I suspect it's because of ignorance. thoughts?

The 3 Fs: fitness, focus, footwork, ... and spacing.

rogerroger917 · Dec 11, 2017

S&V-not_dead_yet said:
I'm not arguing that it can't be done. I'm arguing that it's not wise because it habituates you to not doing it. Then when you do face stiffer competition, you may be unable to simply "turn it on".

Using a 5.0 vs a 4.0 as proof is invalid because the 5.0 is two levels above the 4.0; there are many things the 5.0 can get away with not doing and still win.

You previously stated you were undefeated against all 3.5 - 4.5 comers for the last x years [5?]. OK, so that means you are better than just about any 4.0 you play which means you can also get away with not split-stepping. Would you do that against an equally-skilled opponent?

I meant Suresh didn't need to. He moves like a sloth. His opponents probably do as well.

Wise one · Dec 11, 2017

rogerroger917 said:
No. I've actually done this against 4.0 male adults. Sure I can't walk the whole match but the majority of the time I am walking. I would not lose against a 4.0 doing this. I'm too consistent and can hit a decent ball even walking through my shots. If you are a 5.0 ish player try it. It works against 4.0 players.

I'm telling you it can be done. You have way more time than you think you do.

Obviously I split step and do all that stuff but in most adult rec tennis you do not need to.

In 1997 I tore the ACL in my left knee, and could not move very well for a while. When I got back on the court, I was still a little lame. Guess what? In my impaired condition I actually did better! No more over-running the ball (to which I am prone).

atp2015 · Dec 11, 2017

sureshs said:
Do you think split-stepping helps below the 4.5 level? From my observations, no.

It may not, because they would move up soon

S&V-not_dead_yet · Dec 11, 2017

Wise one said:
In 1997 I tore the ACL in my left knee, and could not move very well for a while. When I got back on the court, I was still a little lame. Guess what? In my impaired condition I actually did better! No more over-running the ball (to which I am prone).

Don't tell me the solution to you over-reaching on your serve was to tear your rotator cuff.

atp2015 · Dec 11, 2017

rogerroger917 said:
Suresh does not split step. Nobody makes Suresh split step.

Court owners and operators may not complain especially if they don't have a mechanism to resurface the courts between change overs. Split stepping is a known hazard for the court surfaces at the feet of players with fondness for refined and gourmet culinary taste.

movdqa · Dec 11, 2017

atp2015 said:
Court owners and operators may not complain especially if they don't have a mechanism to resurface the courts between change overs. Split stepping is a known hazard for the court surfaces at the feet of players with fondness for refined and gourmet culinary taste buds.

California is dealing with enough natural disasters as it is.

Bender · Dec 11, 2017

Split stepping and sound footwork are both hugely beneficial at every level of the game.

But beneficial and mandatory are not the same. At 3.5 and below, you can still win matches without split stepping and / or an understanding of Wardlaw's directionals. Would they help you win more matches? Yes. Would you lose without them? Nope.

Bender · Dec 11, 2017

nytennisaddict said:
I agree with you,...

...but if you’re talking about handicapping yourself and playing down a level or two, then i could also:
*play with my opposite hand
*force myself to do a 360 prior to every groundstroke
*play anything inside the doubles alley (in singles)
*etc,...
and I could still beat some low 3.5s,... or at least make it competitive...

roddick played with a frying pan...

bottom line is that folks that don’t split because “they don’t need to” are one or all:
*out of shape
*dont know how to
*lazy

Timing is everything.

See, if you did a 360 AFTER every groundstroke, you'd automatically become a 7.0.

Bender · Dec 11, 2017

S&V-not_dead_yet said:
Don't tell me the solution to you over-reaching on your serve was to tear your rotator cuff.

Nadal got major injuries and came back stronger each time.

Federer got injured then won AO and Wimbly.

So for sure he got injured, now he gonna play the best tennis of his life no?

Shroud · Dec 12, 2017

sureshs said:
I do a MENTAL split step, preparing my mind to tell my body to move in the direction of the ball.

Was that in @thomas daniels e-book?

Shroud · Dec 12, 2017

One time one summer at tennis camp I splitstepped and my shorts ripped

Bender · Dec 12, 2017

Shroud said:
Was that in @thomas daniels e-book?

No, but it is in Ken M's playbook for sure

Shroud said:
One time one summer at tennis camp I splitstepped and my shorts ripped

Looks like your shorts were split stepping too

Curious · Dec 12, 2017

It takes 30 seconds for an athlete to figure out unit turn and split step!

SystemicAnomaly · Dec 12, 2017

sureshs said:
Do you think split-stepping helps below the 4.5 level? From my observations, no.

Disagree. Wrong take. Players at the 3.5 level should learn to split-step if they have any aspirations of getting to the next level. Most competitive 4.0 players are executing split-steps. Often, 4.0 players who don't SS don't advance. Really best to learn to SS even before you get to a 4.0 level.

WildVolley · Dec 12, 2017

SystemicAnomaly said:
Disagree. Wrong take. Players at the 3.5 level should learn to split-step if they have any aspirations of getting to the next level. Most competitive 4.0 players are executing split-steps. Often, 4.0 players who don't SS don't advance. Really best to learn to SS even before you get to a 4.0 level.

Watched some 4.0 winter doubles league play last Sunday. Most of the 4.0 players were split stepping on every hit by an opponent.

Even in 4.0 doubles, points were lost when players got lazy with their footwork.

philosoup · Dec 12, 2017

Bender said:
Timing is everything.

See, if you did a 360 AFTER every groundstroke, you'd automatically become a 7.0.

Could be a great idea. Maybe 360 has an effect of split steps, some people could get better dis way instantly. Many have been doing it for many pulled wide shots a;ready. We spin ourselves into spatially better coordinated player like pilot training.

Deleted member 23235 · Dec 12, 2017

philosoup said:
Could be a great idea. Maybe 360 has an effect of split steps, some people could get better dis way instantly. Many have been doing it for many pulled wide shots a;ready. We spin ourselves into spatially better coordinated player like pilot training.

lol, originally was said as a joke, but you’re right the coordination gained from doing 360+split before a shot is valuable...

(1:25)

coincidentally gabe says that coordination must be developed by 16.... so maybe it’s too late for an adult that never played sports as a kid to have that “athletic” coordinated movement as an adult

i’ll continue to believe otherwise and keep chugging along

graycrait · Dec 12, 2017

I had an adult skate boarder I questioned his motives ask me why I still play tennis? Touche' I like playing kid games. I even like to watch adults who are really good at playing kids games on TV aka WTA, ATP. Isn't this fun!?

Curious · Dec 12, 2017

nytennisaddict said:
lol, originally was said as a joke, but you’re right the coordination gained from doing 360+split before a shot is valuable...

(1:25)

coincidentally gabe says that coordination must be developed by 16.... so maybe it’s too late for an adult that never played sports as a kid to have that “athletic” coordinated movement as an adult

i’ll continue to believe otherwise and keep chugging along

This guy in the video talks like he is addressing the UN General assembly.

mcs1970 · Dec 12, 2017

Curious said:
It takes 30 seconds for an athlete to figure out unit turn and split step!

@TimeToPlaySets ..what do you say now

?

NuBas · Dec 12, 2017

https://www.instagram.com/djokernole/

Check out Novak's most recent posts, he is training throwing football and mentioned how you get power from feet to torso to arms.

Deleted member 23235 · Dec 13, 2017

sureshs said:
I do a MENTAL split step, preparing my mind to tell my body to move in the direction of the ball.

Is that like yoda using the force?

I do that with the remote control sometimes, when it's too far from The sofa... I mentally tell the remote to fly to my hand,...

Unfortunately I haven't mastered that trick, so I physically have to get off my arse to get the remote.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

TimeToPlaySets · Dec 13, 2017

SystemicAnomaly said:
Disagree. Wrong take. Players at the 3.5 level should learn to split-step if they have any aspirations of getting to the next level. Most competitive 4.0 players are executing split-steps. Often, 4.0 players who don't SS don't advance. Really best to learn to SS even before you get to a 4.0 level.

Correlation is not causation. Maybe they would be 5.5+ if they weren't hampered by their split step. Easily the most overrated nonsense in rec tennis.

TimeToPlaySets · Dec 13, 2017

Curious said:
It takes 30 seconds for an athlete to figure out unit turn and split step!
]

Then why do you think it is that almost no one does it?

Go to the local park, where the majority of tennis is played with Walmart rackets....or watch the 90% of housewives that dominate the indoor tennis scene. Almost No one unit turns.

Arming the ball with nipples to the net is the very definition of rec tennis.

TimeToPlaySets · Dec 13, 2017

mcs1970 said:
@TimeToPlaySets ..what do you say now ?

What do I say?

Are you blind? Do you see the other guy in the video? Yes, Virginia, he's getting coached.

No one on the planet will unit turn unless coached. Including this guy who is clearly a 5.0 from the moment he picks up the racket. Because athletic.

GuyClinch · Dec 13, 2017

You do realize that someone started unit turning before he was coached. If you always needed coaching to unit turn - we would have never started unit turning.. It's like the chicken or the egg according to you.. Haha.

Anyway you can win at 3.0 - 3.5 with any old junk form. But the more you implement correct technique the faster and easier you can advance. For low level players when the start thinking about technique and trying to play properly - they can absolutely play worse. But if you want to be very good at tennis you just have to stick with it - play a bit worse then you would with your hack technique and get better. Or you can just get good at being bad - which is pretty common among the self trained. The 3.5 'pusher' is the perfect example of this - regularly beating up on 'new' players who have 'coaching'.

TimeToPlaySets · Dec 13, 2017

Well said. Someone with no form, but 3 decades of junkballing experience will absolutely demolish any coached newbie.
I've seen a player who literally slices every single shot play at the 4.0 level, utterly crushing the 3.5 level.
Winning at 3.0 and 3.5 can require zero technique. Pushing and junking reliably will get you to 4.0
But, that's about the limit of almost all adults who learn tennis, so all this talk about "capping out" is a big fat moot point.
You're not getting to 4.5 unless you devote your life to tennis, which very few people do.

FiReFTW · Dec 13, 2017

TimeToPlaySets said:
Well said. Someone with no form, but 3 decades of junkballing experience will absolutely demolish any coached newbie.
I've seen a player who literally slices every single shot play at the 4.0 level, utterly crushing the 3.5 level.
Winning at 3.0 and 3.5 can require zero technique. Pushing and junking reliably will get you to 4.0
But, that's about the limit of almost all adults who learn tennis, so all this talk about "capping out" is a big fat moot point.
You're not getting to 4.5 unless you devote your life to tennis, which very few people do.

Well yes, someone who played a certain shot say forehand for 20 years, will have a much better, more consistent, harder to deal with shot than someone who played for 1 year, no matter how much worse the 20 year old guy technque may be, technique is great but it can only go so far, no technique can account for such a huge difference in experience with that same shot, if both played 100 hours per year that would be 2000 hours worth of honing the shot vs 100 hours, thats an insane amount of difference.

Deleted member 23235 · Dec 13, 2017

TimeToPlaySets said:
What do I say?

Are you blind? Do you see the other guy in the video? Yes, Virginia, he's getting coached.

No one on the planet will unit turn unless coached. Including this guy who is clearly a 5.0 from the moment he picks up the racket. Because athletic.

some people are better than others at watching, mimicking, experimenting... but everyone does so to some degree.
other folks can translate movements from one sport to another - ie.
* every beginner i've ever taught, that used to play baseball, (but never took a tennis lesson), will never face "nipples to net" to hit a ball)
* ping pong players, will never face nipples to net
* cricket players will never face nipples to net
* field/ice hockey players will never face nipples to net
* <any others that break the nipples-to-net-without-coaching-law?>
coaching is the most efficient way to get information, but some folks are really good at figuring stuff out themselves (arguably some coaching interferes with learning - ahem! the ones that over explain about ISR, and pronation...)
and for the record, i hate those people/athletes that can pick stuff up quickly, because I've had to work very hard to acquire what little skills i have now

Morch Us · Dec 13, 2017

I personally think, it is wrongly referred to as lazy footwork. The real culprit is shot anticipation and getting ready early in the mind. Physically it looks as if lazy footwork. But what is to be noted is that, even if you train the footwork patterns 1000 times, it is not going to get fixed till you develop the items I mentioned above.

atp2015 said:
lazy footwork

TimeToPlaySets · Dec 13, 2017

While my sample size may be under 100, I have yet to see a person do the unit turn naturally.
And yes, I have firsthand witnessed Div 1 baseball and football players learn tennis. Not one has unit turned.
They arm the ball with nipples facing the net. Turning your entire body sideways is very unnatural.
Baseball and cricket players are already in that stance.
Every see an untrained person play wiffle ball?
They will not "bat", but they will forehand the ball with nipples facing the net.

TimeToPlaySets · Dec 13, 2017

Morch Us said:
I personally think, it is wrongly referred to as lazy footwork. The real culprit is shot anticipation and getting ready early in the mind. Physically it looks as if lazy footwork. But what is to be noted is that, even if you train the footwork patterns 1000 times, it is not going to get fixed till you develop the items I mentioned above.

Well said. Most rec players watch the ball instead of instantly turning their body.
That's because it's natural to watch the ball, and then prepared your racket at the very last second.

The entire ethos of coaching is to undo your natural tendencies.
People who are coached/taught develop those unnatural habits like turning early.
The rest? This is also why most rec players who never got true lessons always have terrible untrained form. (clinics teach you nothing)

Deleted member 23235 · Dec 13, 2017

TimeToPlaySets said:
Well said. Someone with no form, but 3 decades of junkballing experience will absolutely demolish any coached newbie.
I've seen a player who literally slices every single shot play at the 4.0 level, utterly crushing the 3.5 level.
Winning at 3.0 and 3.5 can require zero technique. Pushing and junking reliably will get you to 4.0
But, that's about the limit of almost all adults who learn tennis, so all this talk about "capping out" is a big fat moot point.
You're not getting to 4.5 unless you devote your life to tennis, which very few people do.

agreed.
pushing/junking and alot of fitness, will get you to low 4.0 "easily"...
i'm sure, if the old school style of playing were still alive, that you could get to 5.0 with just a continental grip (though this person would probably be more of an s&v'er)
there's one guy i play occasional that has such a good bh slice (better than my ability to bang it consistently), that i'd rather play his topspin fh, while strong, tends to land short, sit up, etc...

Deleted member 23235 · Dec 13, 2017

TimeToPlaySets said:
While my sample size may be under 100, I have yet to see a person do the unit turn naturally.
And yes, I have firsthand witnessed Div 1 baseball and football players learn tennis. Not one has unit turned.
They arm the ball with nipples facing the net. Turning your entire body sideways is very unnatural.
Baseball and cricket players are already in that stance.
Every see an untrained person play wiffle ball?
They will not "bat", but they will forehand the ball with nipples facing the net.

lol, no div1 baseball player will stand nipples to net to hit a ball.... they might finish there, because they are pull hitter, but they aren't starting there.
football player, maybe... because there's no similar movement pattern equivalent to hitting a tennis ball.

regarding the whiffle ball example.... by "untrained" you're basically saying someone who hasn't played any sports?
technically, for the gnarliest-coming-at-my-head-but-dives-for-a-strike-curveball, i might have to orient nipple to net to hit the ball

Morch Us · Dec 13, 2017

How can you not hate them, lol. I was so pissed at this baseball player who made me look like a fool, after explaining him all the topspin theories for consistency, and to prove it asked him to hit a target deep in the court, and he hit the target 4 out of 5 times using his theoretically inconsistent forehands.

nytennisaddict said:
i hate those people/athletes that can pick stuff up quickly,

Deleted member 23235 · Dec 13, 2017

Morch Us said:
How can you not hate them, lol. I was so pissed at this baseball player who made me look like a fool, after explaining him all the topspin theories for consistency, and to prove it asked him to hit a target deep in the court, and he hit the target 4 out of 5 times using his theoretically inconsistent forehands.

lol, my hate stems from jealousy of course

mcs1970 · Dec 13, 2017

I am just a hack but I picked up unit turn without any coaching, and if I could certainly many who are better have done it. So you certainly can't talk about the planet. Sure I played other racquet sports before but it is not like I got coaching in any of those.

The serve is something where if I had never watched any videos I would never have used a conti grip. It is not intuitive. It doesn't mean every single thing has to be spoonfed or can't be observed and mimicked to a large extent. As for staying at 3.5 without much coaching while you continue your relentless march towards 5.0, I'm rooting for you lil buddy.

Morch Us · Dec 13, 2017

It is something TTPS would probably never understand.

Anyway, I believe, 100% of the motions in tennis were natural to "someone" at "some point", and then when others saw it being effective, it became a coaching hint, and folks who did not do it naturally copied/trained it. And all the "physics" analysis were done after someone demonstrated/used it naturally, only to find why that motion is so effective.

On complex mechanics like serves etc, it may also be that, athletes trained some part of it and then afterwords, invented/discovered some other natural motion for them complimenting whatever they trained, making it a bit more effective.

mcs1970 said:
you certainly can't talk about the planet

atp2015 · Dec 13, 2017

Morch Us said:
100% of the motions in tennis were natural to "someone" at "some point".

I agree, it was natural a long time ago as in the stone age.
The loading of the right leg, conti grip, use of non-dominant, 90 degree bend at the elbow.
Fed's ancestors must have been UTR12 or at least NTRP 5.5 level hunters in their time.

See the images below.

Deleted member 23235 · Dec 13, 2017

atp2015 said:
I agree, it was natural a long time ago as in the stone age.
The loading of the right leg, conti grip, use of non-dominant, 90 degree bend at the elbow.
Fed's ancestors must have been UTR12 or at least NTRP 5.5 level hunters in their time.

See the images below.

there's a cave drawing somewhere about shoulder tilt, "elbow the enemy", isr, and keeping your head up, and eyes on the pterodactyl.

Curious · Dec 13, 2017

Maybe unit turn is overrated, because power in rec tennis is overrated, maybe it's not natural either. If power and being gentle on the arm were not a concern, what's the point of unit turn?

Morch Us · Dec 13, 2017

How about injury prevention?

Curious said:
If power and being gentle on the arm were not a concern, what's the point of unit turn?

The most glaring deficiency of rec players

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