Match Stats/Report - Lendl vs McEnroe, Antwerp Indoors Invitational final, 1985

Waspsting · Sep 27, 2019

Ivan Lendl beat John McEnroe 1-6, 7-6(5), 6-2, 6-2 in the Antwerp Indoors Invitational final, 1985 on hard court

It was Lendl's third title in year years at the event, which allowed him to permanently keep the trophy - a golden racquet studded with 1,400 diamonds worth 1 million dollars. Lendl was world number 1, McEnroe 2 at the time

Lendl won 118 points, McEnroe 104

McEnroe serve-volleyed off all first serves and most of the time off seconds. Lendl serve-volleyed a bit less than half the time off first serve

Serve Stats
Lendl...
- 1st serve percentage (69/114) 61%
- 1st serve points won (51/69) 74%
- 2nd serve points won (26/45) 58%
- Aces 11 (1 second serve), Service Winners 3
- Double Faults 3
- Unreturned Serve Percentage (38/114) 33%

McEnroe...
- 1st serve percentage (64/108) 59%
- 1st serve points won (47/64) 73%
- 2nd serve points won (20/44) 45%
- Aces 8, Service Winners 1
- Double Faults 2
- Unreturned Serve Percentage (41/108) 38%

Serve Patterns
Lendl served...
- to FH 35%
- to BH 59%
- to Body 6%

McEnroe served...
- to FH 31%
- to BH 61%
- to Body 8%

Return Stats
Lendl made...
- 65 (24 FH, 41 BH), including 6 runaround FHs
- 14 Winners (6 FH, 8 BH)
- 32 Errors, comprising...
- 1 Unforced (1 BH)
- 31 Forced (9 FH, 22 BH), including 1 runaround FH
- Return Rate (65/106) 61%

McEnroe made...
- 73 (28 FH, 45 BH), including 4 runaround FHs & 26 return-approaches
- 3 Winners (1 FH, 2 BH)
- 24 Errors, comprising...
- 5 Unforced (1 FH, 4 BH), all return-approach attempts
- 19 Forced (9 FH, 10 BH)
- Return Rate (73/111) 66%

Break Points
Lendl 4/9 (5 games)
McEnroe 2/7 (4 games)

Winners (including returns, excluding serves)
Lendl 43 (13 FH, 20 BH, 3 FHV, 6 BHV, 1 OH)
McEnroe 25 (3 FH, 5 BH, 12 FHV, 4 BHV, 1 OH)

Lendl had 27 passes 10 FH (6 returns, 4 regular) and 17 BH (8 returns, 9 regular)
- FH returns - 2 cc (1 runaround), 2 dtl and 2 inside-in (1 runaround)
- FH regulars - 1 cc (which McEnroe left), 1 inside-out and 2 lobs
- BH returns - 1 cc, 3 dtl, 1 inside-out and 3 inside-in
- BH regulars - 3 cc, 4 dtl, 1 inside-out and 1 longline/inside-out

- non-pass groundstrokes -
- 3 FHs - 1 cc, 1 dtl and 1 inside-out
- 3 BHs - 1 cc, 1 dtl and 1 inside-out

- 7 from serve-volley points
- 3 first volleys (3 BHV)
- 4 second volleys (2 FHV, 1 BHV, 1 OH)

McEnroe had 10 from serve-volley points
- 5 first volleys (5 FHV), 1 being a net chord dribbler
- 3 second volleys (1 FHV, 2 BHV), 1 BHV being net-to-net
- 2 third volleys (2 FHV)

- 3 FHs - 1 dtl return, 1 inside-out pass and 1 longline pass
- 5 BHs - 1 cc pass played net-to-net, 3 dtl (1 return and 2 passes) and 1 inside-in return pass

Errors (excluding serves and returns)
Lendl 35
- 8 Unforced (3 FH, 1 BH, 3 FHV, 1 BHV)
- 27 Forced (8 FH, 12 BH, 2 FHV, 1 BHV, 4 BH1/2V)
- Unforced Error Forcefulness Index 52.5

McEnroe 35
- 10 Unforced (2 FH, 4 BH, 3 FHV, 1 BHV)
- 25 Forced (4 FH, 7 BH, 4 FHV, 3 FH1/2V, 6 BHV, 1 OH)
- Unforced Error Forcefulness Index 49

(Note 1: All 1/2 volleys refer to such shots played at net. 1/2 volleys played from other parts of the court are included within relevant groundstroke numbers)

(Note 2: the Unforced Error Forcefulness Index is an indicator of how aggressive the average UE was. The numbers presented for these two matches are keyed on 4 categories - 20 defensive, 40 neutral, 50 attacking and 60 winner attempt)

Net Points & Serve-Volley
Lendl was...
- 25/43 (58%) at net, including...
- 18/28 (64%) serve-volleying, comprising...
- 17/26 (65%) off 1st serve and...
- 1/2 off 2nd serve

McEnroe was...
- 69/119 (58%) at net, including...
- 49/82 (60%) serve-volleying, comprising...
- 38/55 (69%) off 1st serve and...
- 11/27 (41%) off 2nd serve
--
- 15/26 (58%) return-approaching
- 2/6 (33%) forced back/retreated

Match Report
A great match with two competitive sets and one set exhibiting each player at their best. And the standard of play remains high throughout. Lendl is strong in just about all areas, McEnroe is hugely disinclined to rallying from the baseline at all but is otherwise similarly impressive. Its a fast-ish hard court (not carpet), according to commentators, very similar to the DecoTurf used at the US Open

Serve & Return
There's a real cat and mouse game going on on Lendl's serve and its McEnroe that's the cat, with chip-charging being his claws

Mac's looking to return-approach every chance he gets, even against the first serve. Look at the ridiculous number of 26 such plays - and he makes 5 errors trying, which in itself is a tremendous hit rate. Furthermore, the return-approaches he makes usually good ones - deep, off to the side and almost always to Lendl's BH. He even hits a winner with a would-be return-approach.

Initially, Lendl looks to counter by keeping his first serve up high and he takes a bit off the first delivery. Mac counter-counters by return-approaching even against first serves. Lendl starts serve-volleying off first serves and banging down very big second serves

All in all, Lendl serves well enough, but Mac returns better. he tends to push-slice BH returns, using Lendl's power. Returns come back at decent pace (with minimal effort from Mac) and tend to be dying on the net charging Lendl. Lacking Lendl's ability to blast returns, its as good as Mac can do - and he does it well. But chip-charging and the threat of chip-charging is the heart of his returning and it shapes the way Lendl serves

McEnroe serves well too but Lendl returns rather better. This is a devastating returning display from Lendl (the impression being augmented by the most damaging of it coming at the end). Don't think I've seen such a high rate of hitting return winners - Lendl's made 14 against Mac serve-volleying 82 times

Volleying & Passing
Mac volleys well. Just 4 volleying UEs. He's up against a handful though... 13 FEs in the forecourt too. Still, he makes many 1/2volleys and low volleys

Initially, Lendl is clumsy at net. He serve-volleys without fully committing to the play... seems like he's hoping he gets to hit groundstrokes at net rather than volleys, and Mac's low slice returns tend to reach him low. He makes errors of a bunch of such shots, also makes a hash of a few easy volleys. When coming in off rallying, there's something just a bit off about his judgement and again, he's caught in awkward positions moving forward. This is on Lendl... Mac passes decently, but I don't think he's elaborately planned out how to catch Lendl out before he's completely at net

Mac is more willing to test Lendl on the volley by making him make the volley (as opposed to Mac making a passing error). Put another way, when he's in a bad position on the baseline with Lendl at net, Mac will do his best just to get the ball in play. Lendl by contrast, doesn't settle for anything less than a good pass - and nets balls in such situaitons

This is something I've noticed in Lendl's play more generally. He's justly celebrated as a great passer, but part of the reason is he makes great passes or misses... not many weak passes that get volleyed away easily. Mats Wilander is the opposite. Maybe Lendl would have done better still if he'd been more flexible... netting a ball or being on the receiving end of a volley winner are both worth 1 point and even good players miss easy, let alone makeable, volleys every day. But Lendl... he likes to give the guy at net nothing short of a tough volley at the least

Lendl's volleying picks up towards the end and he's volleying quite sweetly in the last set (he's doing everything superlatively in that set)

Waspsting · Sep 27, 2019

Baseline
Not much of it going on. Mac's in a mad rush to get to net, to the point that Lendl comes in I think more to prevent Mac from doing so than having any particular desire to be there himself. Lendl is very crisp in his hitting, but I think Mac overdid the net rushing and became predictable with it (though he does it well anyway)

The first set is the McEnroe show. When Lendl comes forward, he's met with well placed and/or dipping passes/returns - and Lendl's net game isn't up to handling it. Lendl has his moments too, hitting powerful returns, but Mac's mostly on point with his volleys.

Next 2 sets are both tough fights. Mac goes down 0-40 in game 2 of 2nd set, with Lendl hitting two return winners. Point of the match is in game 9 with Mac FH 'rip'-charging a second serve return to take the net. 3rd ball would be a handful even without Mac being at net, but Lendl gets to the ball and lobs. Mac has to back pedal to make an OH best he can and chooses to keep going back to the baseline. Lendl takes the net and makes a decent FHV but Mac makes an excellent running BH dtl passing winner

Tiebreak is high quality stuff, with just the 1 UE (an approach error by Mac). The key point is Lendl gaining a late mini-break with a brilliant running BH dtl pass to give himself set point, which he seals with a serve-volley that draws a return error.

Third set is pretty tough too. Though Lendl takes it comfortably on the surface with two breaks, he's under the gun on serve.

Fourth set is the Ivan Lendl show. 17 winners, 1 unforced error.... to go with 4 aces and 3 service winners.... this must be one of the best sets of tennis Lendl has played. And McEnroe doesn't play badly. I've seen a decent playing Lendl swept away by a sublime playing McEnroe but didn't expect to see the reverse. A good serve-volleyer playing well on a fast court just doesn't get blown away, but Lendl seems to have missed that memo

Summing up, a very high quality match. McEnroe's return-approaching tendancies forcing Lendl to serve-volley more than he would probably have liked to do, opening up opportunities for Mac. Half the match is decided simply by Lendl playing the important points better... the last bit though is a performance for the ages, Lendl shredding a still playing well McEnroe to pieces. A well deserved million dollar racquet.

BTURNER · Sep 27, 2019

I always like these summaries. Well written and I learn a lot. Just wish your interest extended to women's matches.

Waspsting · Sep 28, 2019

Couple more points about umpiring

Early in the first set, a linesman makes a couple of bad calls against Lendl's serve. Mac is well aware of it and comments on it to the umpire without heat (after the point, never offering or attempting to overrule the calls)

Mac asks for the linesperson to be removed soon after, and this is done... well handled

BTURNER said:
I always like these summaries. Well written and I learn a lot. Just wish your interest extended to women's matches.

Thanks

Funny you should mention women, I was just thinking about looking into some Hingis vs Williams matches, that I remember having enjoyed immensely, the contrast in styles

I started losing interest in the women's game after the Monica Seles stabbing.... Enjoyed Hingis' artistry but as she started getting overpowered by the Williams', Capriati, Davenport... and the game seemed to me to have just become a lesser version of the ball bashing men's game, lost interest almost completely

Do you prefer the women's game to the men's?

BTURNER · Sep 28, 2019

Waspsting said:
Couple more points about umpiring

Early in the first set, a linesman makes a couple of bad calls against Lendl's serve. Mac is well aware of it and comments on it to the umpire without heat (after the point, never offering or attempting to overrule the calls)

Mac asks for the linesperson to be removed soon after, and this is done... well handled

Thanks

Funny you should mention women, I was just thinking about looking into some Hingis vs Williams matches, that I remember having enjoyed immensely, the contrast in styles

I started losing interest in the women's game after the Monica Seles stabbing.... Enjoyed Hingis' artistry but as she started getting overpowered by the Williams', Capriati, Davenport... and the game seemed to me to have just become a lesser version of the ball bashing men's game, lost interest almost completely

Do you prefer the women's game to the men's?

The less power dictates the result, the more touch/ tactics does. The women's game seems to provide a better balance between these two, especially in the earlier decades. You can't do much better than looking at Hingis matches to make my point! Hingis could somehow will herself by one of the Big Babes of 21 century tennis, but two or three rounds just crushed her.

Drob · Feb 23, 2020

Waspsting said:
Ivan Lendl beat John McEnroe 1-6, 7-6(5), 6-2, 6-2 in the Antwerp Indoors Invitational final, 1985 on hard court

It was Lendl's third title in year years at the event, which allowed him to permanently keep the trophy - a golden racquet studded with 1,400 diamonds worth 1 million dollars. Lendl was world number 1, McEnroe 2 at the time

Lendl won 118 points, McEnroe 104

McEnroe serve-volleyed off all first serves and most of the time off seconds. Lendl serve-volleyed a bit less than half the time off first serve

Serve Stats
Lendl...
- 1st serve percentage (69/114) 61%
- 1st serve points won (51/69) 74%
- 2nd serve points won (26/45) 58%
- Aces 11 (1 second serve), Service Winners 3
- Double Faults 3
- Unreturned Serve Percentage (38/114) 33%

McEnroe...
- 1st serve percentage (64/108) 59%
- 1st serve points won (47/64) 73%
- 2nd serve points won (20/44) 45%
- Aces 8, Service Winners 1
- Double Faults 2
- Unreturned Serve Percentage (41/108) 38%

Serve Patterns
Lendl served...
- to FH 35%
- to BH 59%
- to Body 6%

McEnroe served...
- to FH 31%
- to BH 61%
- to Body 8%

Return Stats
Lendl made...
- 65 (24 FH, 41 BH), including 6 runaround FHs
- 14 Winners (6 FH, 8 BH)
- 32 Errors, comprising...
- 1 Unforced (1 BH)
- 31 Forced (9 FH, 22 BH), including 1 runaround FH
- Return Rate (65/106) 61%

McEnroe made...
- 73 (28 FH, 45 BH), including 4 runaround FHs & 26 return-approaches
- 3 Winners (1 FH, 2 BH)
- 24 Errors, comprising...
- 5 Unforced (1 FH, 4 BH), all return-approach attempts
- 19 Forced (9 FH, 10 BH)
- Return Rate (73/111) 66%

Break Points
Lendl 4/9 (5 games)
McEnroe 2/7 (4 games)

Winners (including returns, excluding serves)
Lendl 43 (13 FH, 20 BH, 3 FHV, 6 BHV, 1 OH)
McEnroe 25 (3 FH, 5 BH, 12 FHV, 4 BHV, 1 OH)

Lendl 27 passes 10 FH (6 returns, 4 regular) and 17 BH (8 returns, 9 regular)
- FH returns - 2 cc (1 runaround), 2 dtl and 2 inside-in (1 runaround)
- FH regulars - 1 cc (which McEnroe left), 1 inside-out and 2 lobs
- BH returns - 1 cc, 3 dtl, 1 inside-out and 3 inside-in
- BH regulars - 3 cc, 4 dtl, 1 inside-out and 1 longline/inside-out

- non-pass groundstrokes -
- 3 FHs - 1 cc, 1 dtl and 1 inside-out
- 3 BHs - 1 cc, 1 dtl and 1 inside-out

- 7 from serve-volley points
- 3 first volleys (3 BHV)
- 4 second volleys (2 FHV, 1 BHV, 1 OH)

McEnroe had 10 from serve-volley points
- 5 first volleys (5 FHV), 1 being a net chord dribbler
- 3 second volleys (1 FHV, 2 BHV), 1 BHV being net-to-net
- 2 third volleys (2 FHV)

- 3 FHs - 1 dtl return, 1 inside-out pass and 1 longline pass
- 5 BHs - 1 cc pass played net-to-net, 3 dtl (1 return and 2 passes) and 1 inside-in return pass

Errors (excluding serves and returns)
Lendl 35
- 8 Unforced (3 FH, 1 BH, 3 FHV, 1 BHV)
- 27 Forced (8 FH, 12 BH, 2 FHV, 1 BHV, 4 BH1/2V)
- Unforced Error Forcefulness Index 52.5

McEnroe 35
- 10 Unforced (2 FH, 4 BH, 3 FHV, 1 BHV)
- 25 Forced (4 FH, 7 BH, 4 FHV, 3 FH1/2V, 6 BHV, 1 OH)
- Unforced Error Forcefulness Index 49

(Note 1: All 1/2 volleys refer to such shots played at net. 1/2 volleys played from other parts of the court are included within relevant groundstroke numbers)

(Note 2: the Unforced Error Forcefulness Index is an indicator of how aggressive the average UE was. The numbers presented for these two matches are keyed on 4 categories - 20 defensive, 40 neutral, 50 attacking and 60 winner attempt)

Net Points & Serve-Volley
Lendl was...
- 25/43 (58%) at net, including...
- 18/28 (64%) serve-volleying, comprising...
- 17/26 (65%) off 1st serve and...
- 1/2 off 2nd serve

McEnroe was...
- 69/119 (58%) at net, including...
- 49/82 (60%) serve-volleying, comprising...
- 38/55 (69%) off 1st serve and...
- 11/27 (41%) off 2nd serve
--
- 15/26 (58%) return-approaching
- 2/6 (33%) forced back/retreated

Match Report
A great match with two competitive sets and one set exhibiting each player at their best. And the standard of play remains high throughout. Lendl is strong in just about all areas, McEnroe is hugely disinclined to rallying from the baseline at all but is otherwise similarly impressive. Its a fast-ish hard court (not carpet), according to commentators, very similar to the DecoTurf used at the US Open

Serve & Return
There's a real cat and mouse game going on on Lendl's serve and its McEnroe that's the cat, with chip-charging being his claws

Mac's looking to return-approach every chance he gets, even against the first serve. Look at the ridiculous number of 26 such plays - and he makes 5 errors trying, which in itself is a tremendous hit rate. Furthermore, the return-approaches he makes usually good ones - deep, off to the side and almost always to Lendl's BH. He even hits a winner with a would-be return-approach.

Initially, Lendl looks to counter by keeping his first serve up high and he takes a bit off the first delivery. Mac counter-counters by return-approaching even against first serves. Lendl starts serve-volleying off first serves and banging down very big second serves

All in all, Lendl serves well enough, but Mac returns better. he tends to push-slice BH returns, using Lendl's power. Returns come back at decent pace (with minimal effort from Mac) and tend to be dying on the net charging Lendl. Lacking Lendl's ability to blast returns, its as good as Mac can do - and he does it well. But chip-charging and the threat of chip-charging is the heart of his returning and it shapes the way Lendl serves

McEnroe serves well too but Lendl returns rather better. This is a devastating returning display from Lendl (the impression being augmented by the most damaging of it coming at the end). Don't think I've seen such a high rate of hitting return winners - Lendl's made 14 against Mac serve-volleying 82 times

Volleying & Passing
Mac volleys well. Just 4 volleying UEs. He's up against a handful though... 13 FEs in the forecourt too. Still, he makes many 1/2volleys and low volleys

Initially, Lendl is clumsy at net. He serve-volleys without fully committing to the play... seems like he's hoping he gets to hit groundstrokes at net rather than volleys, and Mac's low slice returns tend to reach him low. He makes errors of a bunch of such shots, also makes a hash of a few easy volleys. When coming in off rallying, there's something just a bit off about his judgement and again, he's caught in awkward positions moving forward. This is on Lendl... Mac passes decently, but I don't think he's elaborately planned out how to catch Lendl out before he's completely at net

Mac is more willing to test Lendl on the volley by making him make the volley (as opposed to Mac making a passing error). Put another way, when he's in a bad position on the baseline with Lendl at net, Mac will do his best just to get the ball in play. Lendl by contrast, doesn't settle for anything less than a good pass - and nets balls in such situaitons

This is something I've noticed in Lendl's play more generally. He's justly celebrated as a great passer, but part of the reason is he makes great passes or misses... not many weak passes that get volleyed away easily. Mats Wilander is the opposite. Maybe Lendl would have done better still if he'd been more flexible... netting a ball or being on the receiving end of a volley winner are both worth 1 point and even good players miss easy, let alone makeable, volleys every day. But Lendl... he likes to give the guy at net nothing short of a tough volley at the least

Lendl's volleying picks up towards the end and he's volleying quite sweetly in the last set (he's doing everything superlatively in that set)

Fine description of this important match - HUGE MONEY at stake.

Lendl's 43 non-service winners in 35 games plus tiebreak shows aggression and on-the-money shot making, while only 8 unforced errors is a laudably low. This ratio is very similar to the USO F two months earlier, and it is hard to lose with such numbers, although you explained how Mac made this a tricky match.

In retrospect, this Antwerp match is like McEnroe's "last stand" against Lendl. Prior to the USO final, Mac led 14-12 in official matches. They played a meaningless exhibition after Flushing Meadows, which Mac won. This is the first real match between the two following the USO. It looks like Mac had a chance at winning. After the Antwerp match (which is not official, but is so significant), Lendl wins 10 of their last 11 official matches.

timnz · Feb 24, 2020

Wh

Drob said:
Fine description of this important match - HUGE MONEY at stake.

Lendl's 43 non-service winners in 35 games plus tiebreak shows aggression and on-the-money shot making, while only 8 unforced errors is a laudably low. This ratio is very similar to the USO F two months earlier, and it is hard to lose with such numbers, although you explained how Mac made this a tricky match.

In retrospect, this Antwerp match is like McEnroe's "last stand" against Lendl. Prior to the USO final, Mac led 14-12 in official matches. They played a meaningless exhibition after Flushing Meadows, which Mac won. This is the first real match between the two following the USO. It looks like Mac had a chance at winning. After the Antwerp match (which is not official, but is so significant), Lendl wins 10 of their last 11 official matches.

what was the exhibition after the 85 us open? Score?

Drob · Feb 24, 2020

timnz said:
Wh

what was the exhibition after the 85 us open? Score?

If you are referring to the exhibition match, not the tournament at Antwerp, that was Oct. 9, 1985 at East Rutherford (assume New Jersey). I am glad you asked, because I had it backward - Lendl def. Mac 7-5, 6-4.

BringBackWood · Aug 6, 2023

@Waspsting I would be interested in your opinion as to whether this match's outcome is due more to Mcenroe's decline since 1984, or Lendl's improvement?
It's odd to analyse a sample of one, but in this case I feel it is appropriate. After 1985 Mcenroe was largely a shell of his former self. Notably his serve no longer penetrated properly and his movement was lacking. In this match, we have a court that Mcenroe would have probably dominated Lendl on a year previously, and he was playing well. The first set was like something out of 1984. The stepwise nature of their rivalry makes it a difficult one to analyse.

I am of the view that Lendl dramatically changed his game in this match (perhaps also in 85 open but Mac was poor there). Previously Lendl would play his more natural 'hard hitting' but ultimately grinding game against Mac. The problem was that the first vaguely short ball would be seized on by Mac to approach and Ivan would be rushed on the passing shot. Same thing if he did predictable second serves.

In Antwerp, he realises he can't afford to do that, and he is being much more aggresive from the back. Mcenroe is forcing him to be the best he can be. Notice in later years when the Mac threat has vanished, he genrally returns to a dull grinding game predicated on him being fitter and more consistent than his opponent, and that harmed him (and viewers' enjoyment). I wager that had he approached Mats' challenge in 88 with the same mindset he did here, no way is Mats winning the US open.

After the first set, he is mixing up his second serves better, and at times going for courageous ones. Although I do think Mac was missing/mishitting more returns. I guess it would be inhuman to keep the first set level up...But crucially he is not letting John breath from in baseline exchanges. This forces John to approach even sooner in rallies, making easier passes for Ivan.

It has to be said a few of the BH passes Lendl hit in this match, paticularly DLT, were incredible in pace and accuracy. Sadly I think we got this Lendl very seldom. A bit like the man he coached, his instincts, honed on the clay, were to grind.

NedStark · Aug 6, 2023

BringBackWood said:
Previously Lendl would play his more natural 'hard hitting' but ultimately grinding game against Mac. The problem was that the first vaguely short ball would be seized on by Mac to approach and Ivan would be rushed on the passing shot. Same thing if he did predictable second serves.

In Antwerp, he realises he can't afford to do that, and he is being much more aggresive from the back. Mcenroe is forcing him to be the best he can be. Notice in later years when the Mac threat has vanished, he genrally returns to a dull grinding game predicated on him being fitter and more consistent than his opponent, and that harmed him (and viewers' enjoyment). I wager that had he approached Mats' challenge in 88 with the same mindset he did here, no way is Mats winning the US open.

I am not sure the lack of Mac was the reason, since Boris and Stefan simply replaced him. Edberg approached the net even more aggressive than Mac. Becker, while more likely to stay back, hit absolute bomb serves in a way that Mac simply could not.

BringBackWood · Aug 6, 2023

NedStark said:
I am not sure the lack of Mac was the reason, since Boris and Stefan simply replaced him. Edberg approached the net even more aggressive than Mac. Becker, while more likely to stay back, hit absolute bomb serves in a way that Mac simply could not.

Neither of those two would routinely play half volley approach shots . Even Edberg was way more content to rally from the back. You may be right in that Lendl would tend to be more aggresive against net rushing players, but no one came close to how Mac in 84 dismantled Ivan's game by rushing him.

The big bombs aren't relevant, simply things no one could handle.

medieval_remnant · Aug 6, 2023

Drob said:
Fine description of this important match - HUGE MONEY at stake.

Lendl's 43 non-service winners in 35 games plus tiebreak shows aggression and on-the-money shot making, while only 8 unforced errors is a laudably low. This ratio is very similar to the USO F two months earlier, and it is hard to lose with such numbers, although you explained how Mac made this a tricky match.

In retrospect, this Antwerp match is like McEnroe's "last stand" against Lendl. Prior to the USO final, Mac led 14-12 in official matches. They played a meaningless exhibition after Flushing Meadows, which Mac won. This is the first real match between the two following the USO. It looks like Mac had a chance at winning. After the Antwerp match (which is not official, but is so significant), Lendl wins 10 of their last 11 official matches.

Totally agree. McEnroe was playing magnificently, and Lendl took it away. Maybe their greatest match. I hedge that claim because it was an unofficial match that aloowed them to play uninhibitedly

Gizo · Aug 7, 2023

A silver-lining of yesterday's spamming, was that this thread which I'd missed was bumped up.

Most Lendl-McEnroe matches were one sided / dominant wins for either player - though because of his skill and talent I often found Mac's one beatdown wins I found more enjoyable compared to those of most other players. While Mac dominated the 1st set and Lendl the final set, I agree that all in all this was a very enjoyable, high quality and competitive contest with the 3rd set far tougher for Lendl than the scoreline suggested. The 4th set was Lendl at his vintage best, through his serving, volleying, groundstrokes and extraordinary passing shots. Mac admitted that he generally played well in this match despite his defeat, which I agreed with.

I agree that this would rank as one of the best matches of their rivalry, alongside their finals in Dallas in 1983 and at Roland Garros in 1984.

Within a couple of months in 1985, Lendl finally achieved his single biggest career objective and won the tournament that he craved the most, the US Open, after previously losing in 3 finals, and then won the biggest monetary value prize in tennis history at the time following this win in Antwerp. Not bad going ! He was really putting his foot down the accelerator pedal and showing that he was the undisputed best player in the world during this period.

buscemi · Aug 7, 2023

BringBackWood said:
@Waspsting I would be interested in your opinion as to whether this match's outcome is due more to Mcenroe's decline since 1984, or Lendl's improvement?
It's odd to analyse a sample of one, but in this case I feel it is appropriate. After 1985 Mcenroe was largely a shell of his former self. Notably his serve no longer penetrated properly and his movement was lacking. In this match, we have a court that Mcenroe would have probably dominated Lendl on a year previously, and he was playing well. The first set was like something out of 1984. The stepwise nature of their rivalry makes it a difficult one to analyse.

I am of the view that Lendl dramatically changed his game in this match (perhaps also in 85 open but Mac was poor there). Previously Lendl would play his more natural 'hard hitting' but ultimately grinding game against Mac. The problem was that the first vaguely short ball would be seized on by Mac to approach and Ivan would be rushed on the passing shot. Same thing if he did predictable second serves.

In Antwerp, he realises he can't afford to do that, and he is being much more aggresive from the back. Mcenroe is forcing him to be the best he can be. Notice in later years when the Mac threat has vanished, he genrally returns to a dull grinding game predicated on him being fitter and more consistent than his opponent, and that harmed him (and viewers' enjoyment). I wager that had he approached Mats' challenge in 88 with the same mindset he did here, no way is Mats winning the US open.

After the first set, he is mixing up his second serves better, and at times going for courageous ones. Although I do think Mac was missing/mishitting more returns. I guess it would be inhuman to keep the first set level up...But crucially he is not letting John breath from in baseline exchanges. This forces John to approach even sooner in rallies, making easier passes for Ivan.

It has to be said a few of the BH passes Lendl hit in this match, paticularly DLT, were incredible in pace and accuracy. Sadly I think we got this Lendl very seldom. A bit like the man he coached, his instincts, honed on the clay, were to grind.

For me, it was more about McEnroe's decline than Lendl's improvement, although there was some of both. 1985 was actually shaping up as a bit of a disappointment for Lendl before that U.S. Open final.

After winning the 1984 French Open, straight setting Wilander in the SF, Lendl lost the 1985 French final against Wilander. After making consecutive Wimbledon SFs in 1983 & 1984, Lendl lost in the fourth round against Leconte, a good grass player, but a player Lendl would straight set at Wimbledon two years later. Over the summer, even a diminished McEnroe straight setted Lendl at both Canada and Stratton Mountain.

Then, we get to the U.S. Open final, and Lendl looks terrible out of the gates, losing 13 of the first 14 points. McEnroe races out to a 5-3 lead w/out losing a point on serve...and then completely loses the thread. It was almost like he got bored and got a little loose and then could never dial back in.

Waspsting · Aug 7, 2023

Its good to see you BringBackWood

BringBackWood said:
@Waspsting I would be interested in your opinion as to whether this match's outcome is due more to Mcenroe's decline since 1984, or Lendl's improvement?

Its a great match from both players. As you imply, drawing conclusions from 1 match is a folly. They could have played the same match in '84

Fortunatly, I have a bunch of matches to go on - '85 Canada, Stratton Mountain, US Open, this one and from '84 Brussels, US Open, French Open, Masters - and that's just direct matches between these two guys

Generally (that is, not limited to his matches against Lendl), the changes I see in Mac between '84 and '85 are

- his being controlled in seeking net in '84 while he's at times, wild and in a hurry to do so in '85

Have you seen his French semi with Wilander? Keeps trying to savagely charge return 2nd serves. Why? Its not like Wilander hits so hard and forcefully off the ground that he can't let a rally develop and work his way in more leisurely and safely

And he makes a mess of the returns. A match he could readily have won - he has better of 2 of the sets, with Wilander clinging in somehow, someway for almost all of both of them (and winning both at the end, of course)

- related (possibly directly), in '84, his groundgame is strong enough to not just hold steady with anybody (as its often been), but even take the fight to them

I don't see that in '85. I don't even see him trying to. He's just all about getting to net, quickly, even savagely. Is he doing that because his groundgame isn't as strong? or has decided to just cut to the chase... why bother with baseline rallies when he can come in?

My guess is latter

Mac used to rally patiently from the back with Borg. No overt signs of even looking to approach... just hitting groundies back and forth
Look at him in '85. Does he ever look patient playing from the back? Does he ever look like being at the back is only a hindrance to coming forward?

The change from wood to graphite would be a factor in this, so its less drastic than it sounds, but still

BringBackWood said:
I am of the view that Lendl dramatically changed his game in this match (perhaps also in 85 open but Mac was poor there). Previously Lendl would play his more natural 'hard hitting' but ultimately grinding game against Mac. The problem was that the first vaguely short ball would be seized on by Mac to approach and Ivan would be rushed on the passing shot. Same thing if he did predictable second serves.

In Antwerp, he realises he can't afford to do that, and he is being much more aggresive from the back. Mcenroe is forcing him to be the best he can be.

I don't remember the details that well, but that sounds just right

My reading of Lendl (in general), is he'll do the least that he has to (take as few risks as possible), while maintaing superiority

If he can beat a guy by safely, gently keeping groundies in play and waiting for UEs - he'll do it
If the other guy can hold his own on that front, he'll up his hitting to pressuringly strong to draw the errors (taking the risk of missing more himself)

But he won't up his ball striking to 'hard-hitting' unless he has to
Same thing with the return. He'd clobber returns to Mac and Edberg... because anything less will get putaway. I haven't seen much of his play against lesser serve-volleyers, but I doubt he clobbers returns that hard regularly against them. Why would he? Stock firm returning will get the job done - and its safer

Now in '84, Mac could match him from baseline and as you say, artfully come into net in a whole bunch of ways. Lendl turned to hitting harder -

a) he needed the extra force to draw errors
b) to keep Mac from coming in

French Open final is superb demonstration of Lendl executing this. Good, hard hitting groundies off both sides as a default. Considerably harder hit than his norm

"McEnroe is forcing him to be the best he can be" - agree, completely. He'd even serve-volley a lot, beyond his comfort zone more to keep Mac from being at net than for any great desire to be there himself

BringBackWood said:
Notice in later years when the Mac threat has vanished, he genrally returns to a dull grinding game predicated on him being fitter and more consistent than his opponent, and that harmed him (and viewers' enjoyment)

Exactly - that's the 'does as little as needed' thing

His grinding game ranged from neutral hitting - the kind that anyone would mark as a UE if it draws an error - particularly of the BH. I call this 'outlasting' play, with consistency advantage key

He could also up it to 'beat-down' strong hitting - where errors he draws some might mark FEs if they draw errors - particularly of the FH. Shot tolerance more than consistency becomes what he's testing his opponents on (because they've passed the consistency test)

Here, he's not going for lines, or court opening angles, but just hammering the ball where they can be reached, but takes some ability to handle regularly. '81 French final, he gave Borg the full load, but Borg is Borg and could handle it... and the straining for force errors came from Lendl much more than the beat-down ones did from Borg

BringBackWood said:
I wager that had he approached Mats' challenge in 88 with the same mindset he did here, no way is Mats winning the US open.

You've picked a bad example there because he actually is trying to overwhelm Mats with power hitting groundies there. Not only does it not work, but Lendl's particularly loose with the errors. In fact, he's loose with the below hard-hitting errors too in that one

I'm sure he'd have known by '88 that Mats is a bloody difficult guy to 'beat-down', much more so than McEnroe, but he's even harder to outlast

Problem he has with Mats is he can't finish points off from the back because Mats' resistance to power is so good. Going to net would be better, but he doesn't like to do that. He did it plenty in the '88 match, but messed up on the volley and OH somewhat

Example of him messing up by persisting with trying to hammer Mats down from the back is '85 French final. Ends up missing his big FHs and losing points from commanding positions, after Mats makes him hit more and more

BringBackWood said:
Sadly I think we got this Lendl very seldom. A bit like the man he coached, his instincts, honed on the clay, were to grind.

He wasn't the most fun guy to watch, but he knew what he was doing

Look at young Andre Agassi - a brilliant hitter, shot-maker, attacking baseliner. Look at all the matches he lost to lesser baseliners.

The more aggressive you are, the more errors you make in general. And if your as aggressive as Agassi was, your bound to have a few bad days when you keep missing - and end up losing

Lendl, with his minimalist mindset, avoided such pitfalls. Didn't lose much to anyone he wasn't supposed to. Is it 5 years that he has 90%+ winning rate?

And look at exceptions - and changes over time - that happened to Agassi. '92 Wimby final, he patiently breaks down Ivanisevic in baseline rallies. Doesn't do anything stupid and try to blow him away. Lendl-like dismantling

By the 2000s, Agassi had converted himself to an all out percentage player. More like Wilander than Lendl

I think where Lendl fell relatively short is taking the step up from beat-down hitting to coming to net to finish. Lot of close losses to Edberg come out of this

BringBackWood · Aug 8, 2023

Waspsting said:
Have you seen his French semi with Wilander? Keeps trying to savagely charge return 2nd serves. Why? Its not like Wilander hits so hard and forcefully off the ground that he can't let a rally develop and work his way in more leisurely and safely

Not yet but I hope to soon. The thing is he was doing it seemingly with ease in 84; maybe he just expected to always be able to do that. And perhaps he was influenced by his final defeat, and not wanting to get bogged down in baseline rallies.

Waspsting said:
You've picked a bad example there because he actually is trying to overwhelm Mats with power hitting groundies there. Not only does it not work, but Lendl's particularly loose with the errors. In fact, he's loose with the below hard-hitting errors too in that one

I remembered Lendl trying to win from the baseline too much but if you say he went to the net, I'll concede that.

Waspsting said:
If he can beat a guy by safely, gently keeping groundies in play and waiting for UEs - he'll do it
If the other guy can hold his own on that front, he'll up his hitting to pressuringly strong to draw the errors (taking the risk of missing more himself)

Completely agree. 87 probably gave him the idea he had that first supremacy over Mats. I really liked the way he played him in Tokyo in 85, but I suppose Mats became a bit wilier/more aggressive in 88.

Waspsting said:
Its good to see you BringBackWood

Thanks, I enjoy reading your reports- I am an avid watcher of old matches, and it's always interesting to see where our impressions align and diverge.

As an aside, anyone who watches this match, take a drink everytime Barry Mackay mentions the diamond trophy!

Vincent-C · Aug 9, 2023

I like BBW's moniker- I suggest an 85 wood-composite like Mecir's or Clerc's as a nice compromise; better tennis would result (as defined by me, of course).

Match Stats/Report - Lendl vs McEnroe, Antwerp Indoors Invitational final, 1985

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