Graphene + Spiralfibers makes no sense at all

PistolPete23

Hall of Fame
Even if the technology is intended to be real, let's take a moment to consider the oxymoron that is graphene + spiralfibers. The addition of graphene particles to the composite matrix purportedly increases stiffness and "strength" but the addition of spiralfibers (what is it, anyway?) is suppose to help the racquet be more flexible. The two materials' effects contradict each other. Head representatives reading this, am I missing something?
 

vsbabolat

G.O.A.T.
Even if the technology is intended to be real, let's take a moment to consider the oxymoron that is graphene + spiralfibers. The addition of graphene particles to the composite matrix purportedly increases stiffness and "strength" but the addition of spiralfibers (what is it, anyway?) is suppose to help the racquet be more flexible. The two materials' effects contradict each other. Head representatives reading this, am I missing something?
You’re missing something. Racquets need a combination of stiff and flexible graphite. My understanding of Graphene was to increase energy transfer and strength. You can’t make a stiff brittle racquet. You need a blend of stiffness in the carbon fiber.
 
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Even if the technology is intended to be real, let's take a moment to consider the oxymoron that is graphene + spiralfibers. The addition of graphene particles to the composite matrix purportedly increases stiffness and "strength" but the addition of spiralfibers (what is it, anyway?) is suppose to help the racquet be more flexible. The two materials' effects contradict each other. Head representatives reading this, am I missing something?
I’m no head rep or expert for that matter but I think the placement of said technologies matters a lot. Graphene in throat allows lower overall weight and more polarization and spiralfibers in strategic locations help gain back some of the flex to add feel and comfort? Just a guess. Regardless of the tech claims, I think the 360+ layups have definitely made each Head line better than any of the previous graphene era ones.
 
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Deleted member 768841

Guest
I guess the same can be said about cortex or Countervail, it’s just marketing jargon to talk about the layup of the racquet and what they want. Of course it will all be good news “we improved the feedback while muting the vibrations” which is pretty much impossible and hasn’t been done to my knowledge.
 
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Deleted member 768841

Guest
Its mainly marketing BS, but the layups are a really great compromise between classic feel and modern power. If they want to call it spiral fibers to sell frames its fine with me. Its always something hilarious with these companies.
“Only good vibes”
 

AMGF

Hall of Fame
Pretty sure if someone was to sue Head for lack of actual graphene in their frames they would win. Just like Babolat lost when challenged for their Tungsten frames having no Tungsten.

Graphene is freaking expensive and if Head was using actual graphene matrix in their frames the price would be much higher than the ~200$ they ask for. At best Head spreads graphene dust to avoid getting sued. However, I would actually love to see how an actual graphene frame would perform. Graphene is a really fantastic material.

As for spiral fibers it can be anything. It’s just Head marketing inventing new catchy names for their stuff.
 

PistolPete23

Hall of Fame
I’m no head rep or expert for that matter but I think the placement of said technologies matters a lot. Graphene in throat allows lower overall weight and more polarization and spiralfibers in strategic locations help gain back some of the flex to add feel and comfort? Just a guess. Regardless of the tech claims, I think the 360+ layups have definitely made each Head line better than any of the previous graphene era ones.

I’m aware that the 360+ racquets have been playing better than previous iterations of Graphene frames. I’m convinced that Head has indeed made better racquets, but I don’t think it’s because of the “graphene flakes” they add to the matrix or the Spiralfibers. Graphene 360 has the implication that the material is added to multiple locations all around the frame. The problem with doing this, if Head is in fact doing this, is that while fibers are anisotropic (stiff in longitudinal orientation and flexible in the orthogonal one), adding the flakes to the resin matrix would stiffen the matrix regardless of orientation, because randomly dispersed particles don’t have orientation. I don’t think this is a good thing because you never want any part of the racquet to be completely resistant to all modes of bending. I think the effect Head was trying to achieve would have been much more effective if they had just used pieces of high modulus carbon fiber in specific layup orientations to reinforce the racquet in the “weak” spots. Perhaps realizing this, Head attempted to remedy the situation by introducing Spiralfibers, a mysterious material I could find zero information about, contrary to other innovative materials they purported to have used in the past. Again, the same effect could have been achieved by using lower modulus carbon fiber prepreg and orienting them in a smart way. You don’t need minuscule sprinklings of graphene and magical flexible fibers to create a Gravity Pro racquet. My theory is that the Gravity Pro performs the way it does because Head designed a good racquet by using carbon fiber prepreg in the right way; it probably has very little to do with the 360+ technology. The marketing description has become so nebulous and abstract, it’s beginning to sound like those ads for Power Balance wristbands from years ago.
 
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PistolPete23

Hall of Fame
Pretty sure if someone was to sue Head for lack of actual graphene in their frames they would win. Just like Babolat lost when challenged for their Tungsten frames having no Tungsten.

Graphene is freaking expensive and if Head was using actual graphene matrix in their frames the price would be much higher than the ~200$ they ask for. At best Head spreads graphene dust to avoid getting sued. However, I would actually love to see how an actual graphene frame would perform. Graphene is a really fantastic material.

As for spiral fibers it can be anything. It’s just Head marketing inventing new catchy names for their stuff.

Was that a thing? Babolat lost a lawsuit for not actually having tungsten in their GT racquets? That’s awesome LOL.
 

PistolPete23

Hall of Fame
Pretty sure if someone was to sue Head for lack of actual graphene in their frames they would win. Just like Babolat lost when challenged for their Tungsten frames having no Tungsten.

Graphene is freaking expensive and if Head was using actual graphene matrix in their frames the price would be much higher than the ~200$ they ask for. At best Head spreads graphene dust to avoid getting sued. However, I would actually love to see how an actual graphene frame would perform. Graphene is a really fantastic material.

As for spiral fibers it can be anything. It’s just Head marketing inventing new catchy names for their stuff.

I’m pretty sure there’s no actual graphene in Head racquets. Like you said, too expensive to use in significant amounts. Head uses a much inferior and cheaper type of graphene; it’s misleadingly also called graphene by the industry but it’s not the monolayer material that has gained widespread acknowledgement in the materials community.
 

smalahove

Hall of Fame
Fwiw, my Head skis have Graphene in them, and their stiffness works great in the slopes. Since Head have a presence in several sports, and use similar Graphene tech, it’d not far fetched to image there’s actual innovatiob behind it. Not to everyone’s taste ofc, but still.
 

PistolPete23

Hall of Fame
Fwiw, my Head skis have Graphene in them, and their stiffness works great in the slopes. Since Head have a presence in several sports, and use similar Graphene tech, it’d not far fetched to image there’s actual innovatiob behind it. Not to everyone’s taste ofc, but still.

Are you sure it’s not just high modulus graphite? ;)
 

AMGF

Hall of Fame
Was that a thing? Babolat lost a lawsuit for not actually having tungsten in their GT racquets? That’s awesome LOL.

dbb199cb252b333e200ad7623b91626a.jpg



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

AMGF

Hall of Fame
Fwiw, my Head skis have Graphene in them, and their stiffness works great in the slopes. Since Head have a presence in several sports, and use similar Graphene tech, it’d not far fetched to image there’s actual innovatiob behind it. Not to everyone’s taste ofc, but still.
At 100$ to 200$ for 1g of graphene, depending on quality, how much graphene is there in your skis in your opinion? I have absolutely no knowledge in skis, but I’d guess pretty close to 0 is right answer.

For a tennis racquet it’s hard to imagine there is more than .25g of graphene (25$ to 50$ cost) at best in a Head graphene racquet. But even there it probably doesn’t make sense on a 200$ frame. My guess is 0g but maybe some graphene dust to avoid a costly lawsuit (if they learned anything from Babolat).
 

Automatix

Legend
The below is in regard to Head's first Graphene technology claims...

Head is a lot smarter then Babolat.
Their patent is very broad and features multiple solutions of using graphene*, and graphene or stuff regarded as graphene is available in many forms**, even more so graphite are multiple layers of graphene...
As far as I know, for racquets, Head supposedly uses nanoplatelets as an addition to the resin.
This study - https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10853-015-9705-6 - concluded that, and I quote...
"Resin-rich regions have been found in the area where the head of the racquet is joined to the handle. It appears that this area, which is a point of potential of weakness in the racquet, has been reinforced with graphene in form of graphite nanoplatelets."

The cheapest graphene nanoplatelets I've found cost 117 USDs per 250g (https://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/product/aldrich/900394?lang=en&region=US).

So one might conclude that Head actually uses some form of graphene in their racquets, it probably doesn't account to much, amount wise and property wise but it seems it is actually used.

Disclaimer: I'm a PhD Eng. in Environmental Sciences and have dabbled with material science only in regard to construction materials, concrete, aggregates and so on, I am NOT an expert on the matter of graphene nor I pretend to be one.
______________________
* Check it out yourselves: https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/99/e6/b2/a58e7cfbd75d6f/US8342989.pdf
** Merck offers graphene naoplatelets: https://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/search?term=Graphene+nanoplatelets&interface=All&N=0&mode=match partialmax&lang=en&region=US&focus=product
 

PistolPete23

Hall of Fame
The below is in regard to Head's first Graphene technology claims...

Head is a lot smarter then Babolat.
Their patent is very broad and features multiple solutions of using graphene*, and graphene or stuff regarded as graphene is available in many forms**, even more so graphite are multiple layers of graphene...
As far as I know, for racquets, Head supposedly uses nanoplatelets as an addition to the resin.
This study - https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10853-015-9705-6 - concluded that, and I quote...
"Resin-rich regions have been found in the area where the head of the racquet is joined to the handle. It appears that this area, which is a point of potential of weakness in the racquet, has been reinforced with graphene in form of graphite nanoplatelets."

The cheapest graphene nanoplatelets I've found cost 117 USDs per 250g (https://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/product/aldrich/900394?lang=en&region=US).

So one might conclude that Head actually uses some form of graphene in their racquets, it probably doesn't account to much, amount wise and property wise but it seems it is actually used.

Disclaimer: I'm a PhD Eng. in Environmental Sciences and have dabbled with material science only in regard to construction materials, concrete, aggregates and so on, I am NOT an expert on the matter of graphene nor I pretend to be one.
______________________
* Check it out yourselves: https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/99/e6/b2/a58e7cfbd75d6f/US8342989.pdf
** Merck offers graphene naoplatelets: https://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/search?term=Graphene+nanoplatelets&interface=All&N=0&mode=match partialmax&lang=en&region=US&focus=product

Yeah, I’ve read that study. It was surprising because the racquet that was dissected was a junior frame. Graphene nanoplatelets are graphite particles comprising several monolayers. Unfortunately they’re also called “graphene” by the industry (easier to market that way), but like you said, they do not in any way resemble true graphene like Head would like people to believe. As a materials science PhD (it really doesn’t matter whether I have a PhD, but some ppl won’t consider what I say unless I state credentials) I can assure people that particles of graphite nanoplatelets embedded in a resin matrix is structurally and functionally inferior to carbon fiber itself. You’re right, Head’s got some sneaky lawyers and a genius marketing team, better than Babolat.
 

Automatix

Legend
... they do not in any way resemble true graphene like Head would like people to believe. ... graphite nanoplatelets embedded in a resin matrix is structurally and functionally inferior to carbon fiber itself.
This is the essence of the problem. People hear/read graphene and think of something veryyyy far from reality.
 

2nd Serve Ace

Hall of Fame
Longer fibers can be a benefit. Braided graphite does feel and play nice.

For "additive" materials, some aramids do seem to offer some benefits. Also whatever Innegra was I loved that stuff. Wish Head had stayed in that direction.

FWIW, I think companies are generally reducing the amount of high modulus graphite in layups and trying to hide that fact with 2 flakes of "unobtanium"
 

PistolPete23

Hall of Fame
Longer fibers can be a benefit. Braided graphite does feel and play nice.

For "additive" materials, some aramids do seem to offer some benefits. Also whatever Innegra was I loved that stuff. Wish Head had stayed in that direction.

FWIW, I think companies are generally reducing the amount of high modulus graphite in layups and trying to hide that fact with 2 flakes of "unobtanium"

I think any material that is already in fiber composite prepreg form and isn't cost-prohibitive can be a potentially legitimate part of the layup. Innegra is a proprietary name for polyolefin fiber, is low density, and has real dampening properties similar to that provided by aramid fibers (Kevlar, Twaron); it also has lower modulus (i.e. lower tensile and bending stiffness). I'm also not sure why Head didn't continue to use Innegra; perhaps at some point it became too expensive. I don't know how much Innegra (if at all) there was in the IG Prestige Mid's layup, but I absolutely love that stick. It's actually my main racquet right now.
 

dr325i

G.O.A.T.
Pretty sure if someone was to sue Head for lack of actual graphene in their frames they would win. Just like Babolat lost when challenged for their Tungsten frames having no Tungsten.

Graphene is freaking expensive and if Head was using actual graphene matrix in their frames the price would be much higher than the ~200$ they ask for. At best Head spreads graphene dust to avoid getting sued. However, I would actually love to see how an actual graphene frame would perform. Graphene is a really fantastic material.

As for spiral fibers it can be anything. It’s just Head marketing inventing new catchy names for their stuff.
Except that Head does have Graphene in it as stated...
 

smalahove

Hall of Fame
At 100$ to 200$ for 1g of graphene, depending on quality, how much graphene is there in your skis in your opinion? I have absolutely no knowledge in skis, but I’d guess pretty close to 0 is right answer.

For a tennis racquet it’s hard to imagine there is more than .25g of graphene (25$ to 50$ cost) at best in a Head graphene racquet. But even there it probably doesn’t make sense on a 200$ frame. My guess is 0g but maybe some graphene dust to avoid a costly lawsuit (if they learned anything from Babolat).

here you can also see where, and how much they put in (not much, but still):
(Page 2-5)
F.inst:
xhead-wc-sandwich-construction.jpg.pagespeed.ic.WyWXQ7ANah.jpg
 

Alexh22

Professional
I am still amazed how head has not been sued for their marketing scams aka graphene. If adding so called graphene makes racquets hollow , harsh and less playable then I think head achieved that completely.

dbb199cb252b333e200ad7623b91626a.jpg



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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AMGF

Hall of Fame
Except that Head does have Graphene in it as stated...
I believe you have inside info. Do you know how much and what type/quality they used or are using? As the price of graphene drops, maybe they’ll use more and more of the good stuff.
 

AMGF

Hall of Fame
Not a head user. I am still amazed how head has not been sued for their marketing scams aka graphene.
They just need to use a tiny bit to avoid any lawsuits. Noticed how everyone has players “endorsing” frames now? That’s what companies learned from Babolat’s lawsuit. I’m sure they learn to use at least some of the material they promote.
 

dr325i

G.O.A.T.
I am still amazed how head has not been sued for their marketing scams aka graphene. If adding so called graphene makes racquets hollow , harsh and less playable then I think head achieved that completely.
Why did you remove your first line of the original post???
Because we realize that you are not using your head!
 

PistolPete23

Hall of Fame
Gotta love Head's marketing description for graphene, so many problems with it - "Nobel prize winning material ... lighter than wood and metal, yet harder than diamond and steel." A lot of materials are "lighter" than wood and metal, and technically it would be impossible to measure graphene's hardness because it's literally a single layer of carbon atoms; hardness isn't even a relevant property for graphene. Also, Head is not using the material that won the Nobel prize. I'd bet my entire savings account that the stuff they're sprinkling into the layup is not monolayer graphene. But don't take my word for it. Here's a snippet from an article y'all might find informative from Nature Journal, link to full article below. Article is from 2013, but to my knowledge, to date there still hasn't been a breakthrough in large-scale synthesis of true monolayer graphene.

"Despite its manufacturing challenges, enthusiasts are quick to point out that graphene has already hit the market. Multi-layered graphene, in which many sheets are stacked together, is used to strengthen a tennis racquet made by Head, for example, and forms a conductive circuit in anti-theft packaging produced by Vorbeck Materials in Jessup, Maryland.

But these cheaper forms of graphene include a range of different structures that are essentially nanometre-sized chunks of graphite. The properties of this sooty jumble of fragments are no match for Mr G's superpowers, which reach their zenith only in pristine, one-atom-thick layers in which the atomic arrangement is perfect. Only in this state can electrons flow more quickly than in any other material."


 

Howard H

Rookie
The Graphene discussions on this board are really amusing. On the one hand people doubt there is any Graphene in the racquets, on the other hand people complain about the racquets' feel since Graphene.
 

Alexh22

Professional
this is the key problem: misrepresentation. head used this term to describe a cheap, non award winning material to increase its profit margin. The poor performance of these sticks spoke for themselves.
Gotta love Head's marketing description for graphene, so many problems with it - "Nobel prize winning material ... lighter than wood and metal, yet harder than diamond and steel." A lot of materials are "lighter" than wood and metal, and technically it would be impossible to measure graphene's hardness because it's literally a single layer of carbon atoms; hardness isn't even a relevant property for graphene. Also, Head is not using the material that won the Nobel prize. I'd bet my entire savings account that the stuff they're sprinkling into the layup is not monolayer graphene. But don't take my word for it. Here's a snippet from an article y'all might find informative from Nature Journal, link to full article below. Article is from 2013, but to my knowledge, to date there still hasn't been a breakthrough in large-scale synthesis of true monolayer graphene.

"Despite its manufacturing challenges, enthusiasts are quick to point out that graphene has already hit the market. Multi-layered graphene, in which many sheets are stacked together, is used to strengthen a tennis racquet made by Head, for example, and forms a conductive circuit in anti-theft packaging produced by Vorbeck Materials in Jessup, Maryland.

But these cheaper forms of graphene include a range of different structures that are essentially nanometre-sized chunks of graphite. The properties of this sooty jumble of fragments are no match for Mr G's superpowers, which reach their zenith only in pristine, one-atom-thick layers in which the atomic arrangement is perfect. Only in this state can electrons flow more quickly than in any other material."


 
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PistolPete23

Hall of Fame
The Graphene discussions on this board are really amusing. On the one hand people doubt there is any Graphene in the racquets, on the other hand people complain about the racquets' feel since Graphene.

I don't doubt there's graphene in the racquets (at least the initial Graphene models), but it's not the authentic stuff. The graphite nanoplatelets (aka faux graphene), whether it's embedded in the carbon fiber prepreg itself, or is part of a prepreg sans fiber, is creating a feel in the frames that many do not enjoy.
 
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