11 year old daughter's serve (honest feedback)

[Postpre]

Looking for feedback on my 11 year old daughter's serve. I taught her some of Salzenstein's points of emphasis (early shoulder turn for first move, for instance), but I'm not sure her motion is as efficient as it could be.

Is she bending her hitting elbow too much (and coiling too early) before ball toss? She seems to get her elbow into it's final "trophy" position very early in her motion (just about at the time of her toss). I'm wondering if this is advisable and if any tweaks would be suggested. Thanks.

 

[mad dog1]

Her serve is solid and more fundamentally sound than most of the posters so good luck getting good useful advice. She does seem a bit too flatfooted in the load stage-heels are too close to the ground. If she gets more on the balls of her feet, it would allow her to explode upward which will give her serve more power.

Look at how much daylight is between Fed’s heel and the ground. Your daughter is less balanced because her weight is leaning back too much. If she gets more on the balls if her feet, she’ll be more balanced throughout the stroke and more explosive.

 

[Postpre]

Her serve is solid and more fundamentally sound than most of the posters so good luck getting good useful advice. She does seem a bit too flatfooted in the load stage-heels are too close to the ground. If she gets more on the balls of her feet, it would allow her to explode upward which will give her serve more power.

Great observation. She does need to get on the balls of her feet and work on exploding upward a bit more.

 

[mad dog1]

Great observation. She does need to get on the balls of her feet and work on exploding upward a bit more.

It’s a very good serve already though. Good rhythm. Slow at the start, accelerating upward into the ball. But the acceleration upward isn’t explosive enough. How much work does she do to strengthen her core? Abs, glutes and lower back strength are key to the acceleration phase of the serve.

 

[mad dog1]

@Postpre, look at how balanced both fed and roddick are in the load phase. Their shoulders are centered over and between their feet. Go back and take a look your daughter. He shoulders are leaning off to the left.

 

[Postpre]

It’s a very good serve already though. Good rhythm. Slow at the start, accelerating upward into the ball. But the acceleration upward isn’t explosive enough. How much work does she do to strengthen her core? Abs, glutes and lower back strength are key to the acceleration phase of the serve.

She doesn't currently do a ton of specific strengthening exercises off the court. Her academy program implements a few exercises into their sessions. It's definitely something I can implement into her training over the next year. She's naturally a very strong girl for her age.

 

[mad dog1]

She doesn't currently do a ton of specific strengthening exercises off the court. Her academy program implements a few exercises into their sessions. It's definitely something I can implement into her training over the next year. She's naturally a very strong girl for her age.

Medicine ball exercises are great for sport specific core strengthening.

 

[Chas Tennis]

The video keeps the control box in the middle of the frame while viewing? Can it be viewed larger? How do you move single frame? (Youtube and Vimeo work well and can single frame and download.) The racket has too much motion blur to see. Repeat in bright sunlight for less motion blur. Use high speed video for tennis strokes.

Based on this video, your daughter has an unknown serving technique. I don't know about developmental tennis for children. Can suggest a reference with some information on developmental issues.

There is a possible safety issue here. The best information available that I know of is in the Todd Ellenbecker video "Rotator Cuff Injury". That video can be viewed by joining Tennis Resources, an USPTA associated website. You can join for one month to view the video. You may be able to purchase the video from the website?? Other options?

If the upper arm rises at too much of an angle to the shoulder joint it increases the risk of rotator cuff impingement. Ellenbecker discusses this issue in detail and the recommended angle to have for the upper arm. You can see this angle in nearly all high level ATP serves, the angle limit applies throughout the motion. The recommendation applies to the high level serving technique, using internal shoulder rotation, but who knows about unclear techniques such as your daughter's. I draw a line between the two shoulders and then a line through the upper arm. Compare that angle to high level serves.

There are many posts on this subject in this forum. Search: Ellenbecker impingement Chas
add Whiteside for a recent thread.

Jim McLennan has a short video warning on the rotator cuff.

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...-chas-tennis-about-high-level-servers.596908/

Biomechanics Researcher David Whiteside's comments on estimating the angle.
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...igh-level-servers.596908/page-3#post-11544567

 

[MotoboXer]

An excellent motion, shes using the Serve Doctors spring-loaded serve that they teach at the Bolliteiri academy.

 

[Postpre]

The video keeps the control box in the middle of the frame while viewing? Can it be viewed larger? How do you move single frame? (Youtube and Vimeo work well and can single frame and download.) The racket has too much motion blur to see. Repeat in bright sunlight for less motion blur. Use high speed video for tennis strokes.

Based on this video, your daughter has an unknown serving technique. I don't know about developmental tennis for children. Can suggest a reference with some information on developmental issues.

There is a possible safety issue here. The best information available that I know of is in the Todd Ellenbecker video "Rotator Cuff Injury". That video can be viewed by joining Tennis Resources, an USPTA associated website. You can join for one month to view the video. You may be able to purchase the video from the website?? Other options?

If the upper arm rises at too much of an angle to the shoulder joint it increases the risk of rotator cuff impingement. Ellenbecker discusses this issue in detail and the recommended angle to have for the upper arm. You can see this angle in nearly all high level ATP serves. the angle limit applies throughout the motion. The recommendation applies to the high level serving technique, using internal shoulder rotation, but who knows about unclear techniques such as your daughter's. I draw a line between the two shoulders and then a line through the upper arm. Compare that angle to high level serves.

There are many posts on this subject in this forum. Search: Ellenbecker, impingement, Chas
add Whiteside for a recent thread.

Jim McLennan has a short video warning on the rotator cuff.

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...-chas-tennis-about-high-level-servers.596908/

Biomechanics Researcher David Whiteside's comments on estimating the angle.
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...igh-level-servers.596908/page-3#post-11544567

I am somewhat familiar with Ellenbecker's conclusions, but maybe not all of it. I will look into it. Her elbow may be a tad high at "trophy" but I think with a bit more strength she can lower it.

 

[Postpre]

An excellent motion, shes using the Serve Doctors spring-loaded serve that they teach at the Bolliteiri academy.

I need to watch the Serve Doc's spring loaded video again

 

[Pete Player]

Kids, especially girls have loose joints, I think the angular difference between shoulder plane and the upper arm is not really a big issue at her age. It should become more into focus, when her strengt builds up.

Why I think the above is that often with less muscles the motion needs to be more effective and therefore I believe, she's not forcing her shoulder to that position, but it just goes with the flow. Little more side tilt on the shoulders will take care of that later. And it is really easy to dial in, when adding power and speed to the motion.

 

[barringer97]

The video keeps the control box in the middle of the frame while viewing? Can it be viewed larger? How do you move single frame? (Youtube and Vimeo work well and can single frame and download.) The racket has too much motion blur to see. Repeat in bright sunlight for less motion blur. Use high speed video for tennis strokes.

Based on this video, your daughter has an unknown serving technique. I don't know about developmental tennis for children. Can suggest a reference with some information on developmental issues.

There is a possible safety issue here. The best information available that I know of is in the Todd Ellenbecker video "Rotator Cuff Injury". That video can be viewed by joining Tennis Resources, an USPTA associated website. You can join for one month to view the video. You may be able to purchase the video from the website?? Other options?

If the upper arm rises at too much of an angle to the shoulder joint it increases the risk of rotator cuff impingement. Ellenbecker discusses this issue in detail and the recommended angle to have for the upper arm. You can see this angle in nearly all high level ATP serves, the angle limit applies throughout the motion. The recommendation applies to the high level serving technique, using internal shoulder rotation, but who knows about unclear techniques such as your daughter's. I draw a line between the two shoulders and then a line through the upper arm. Compare that angle to high level serves.

There are many posts on this subject in this forum. Search: Ellenbecker impingement Chas
add Whiteside for a recent thread.

Wut? How many 11 year olds have had rotator cuff injuries?

Anyways, my two cents is that there is too much going on in her take back. I would do a lot more half serves then slowly build into the full serve.

 

[SinjinCooper]

Gorgeous motion. Whoever's helping her learn it is doing a great job!

Work a little on the action of that off arm, after acceleration upward begins. Super easy fix, and should show noticeable improvement.

See how she extends it upward with the toss, begins to retract it as she comes around and launches up and into the ball, but then sticks it back out again and holds it out there? That works counter to what that arm's supposed to achieve. It's meant to retract and help to accelerate rotation centrifugally (think ice skater).

When she pulls that arm down, get her to think of a fist-pump YES!

That's the way we teach young pitchers to use the off arm to enhance the throwing motion. Works for young servers, too.

Show her this pic, because with her classic motion, she's using the off arm to begin what I call a, "downward cascading motion." This is GOOD, and you see it in lots of excellent serves. Sampras, Feli Lopez, etc. That cascade begins with the arm still out, and uses it as a counterweight to begin the upward motion. But that motion only continues to about here (when both arms are roughly horizontal)...

...and at that moment, get her to execute the baby meme "YES!" with the left, and she'll add pace to the rotation. It's probably good enough to suggest she try it, "as she swings." That usually gets the timing about right.

The upshot is she's getting here (doing a "Hi dad!") with the left arm...

...and you want her more in here somewhere, pulling, accelerating the rotation...

Again, though, all-in-all, somebody's doing great work with her. That motion's dynamite for an 11-yr old girl.

 

[Postpre]

Gorgeous motion. Whoever's helping her learn it is doing a great job!

Work a little on the action of that off arm, after acceleration upward begins. See how she extends it, begins to retract it as she launches up and into the ball, but then sticks it back out again and holds it there? That works counter to what that arm's supposed to achieve. It's meant to retract and help to accelerate rotation centrifugally (think ice skater).

When she pulls that arm down, get her to think of a fist-pump YES!

That's the way we teach young pitchers to use the off arm to enhance the throwing motion.

Show her this pic, because with her classic motion, she's using the off arm to begin what I call a, "downward cascading motion." This is GOOD, and you see it in lots of excellent serves. Sampras, Feli Lopez, etc. That cascade begins with the arm still out, and uses it as a counterweight to begin the upward motion. But that motion only continues to about here (when both arms are roughly horizontal)...

...and at that moment, get her to execute the baby meme "YES!" with the left, and she'll add pace to the rotation. It's probably good enough to suggest she try it, "as she swings." That usually gets the timing about right.

The upshot is she's getting here (doing a "Hi dad!") with the left arm...

...and you want her more in here somewhere, pulling...

Again, though, all-in-all, somebody's doing great work with her. That motion's dynamite for an 11-yr old girl.

Awesome feedback and corrective tips. Will address immediately. She's never had a private lesson beyond my attempt to coach her Though she does an academy program where she's surrounded by solid coaches.

 

[SinjinCooper]

Awesome feedback and corrective tips. Will address immediately. She's never had a private lesson beyond my attempt to coach her Though she does an academy program where she's surrounded by solid coaches.

Cool. Hope it works out.

There's a Pat Dougherty vid out there somewhere where he talks about using the off arm like you're "pulling yourself up to the top of the fence." That achieves pretty much the same motion and effect, but is a different way of thinking about the same thing. Might work better for her, might not, but it's there in video form which is always kind of nice.

Keep on keepin' on.

 

[Postpre]

Wut? How many 11 year olds have had rotator cuff injuries?

Anyways, my two cents is that there is too much going on in her take back. I would do a lot more half serves then slowly build into the full serve.

Do you think it's her hitting elbow that's bending too much too early? She did half and three quarter motions for quite a while, but she thinks it's embarrassing to take that to competition. I, of course, disagree . Her tendency to want bend her elbow now with full motion may be due to serving with a half motion for so long.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

Analyzing serves on the internet with diagrams and annotations is a TOTAL JOKE
Keep paying for a coach, and have her keep hitting.
She's already better than most posters here.

 

[Chadillac]

Analyzing serves on the internet with diagrams and annotations is a TOTAL JOKE
Keep paying for a coach, and have her keep hitting.
She's already better than most posters here.

How many games do you think you could take off her in a set?

Looking for feedback on my 11 year old daughter's serve. I taught her some of Salzenstein's points of emphasis (early shoulder turn for first move, for instance), but I'm not sure her motion is as efficient as it could be.

Is she bending her hitting elbow too much (and coiling too early) before ball toss? She seems to get her elbow into it's final "trophy" position very early in her motion (just about at the time of her toss). I'm wondering if this is advisable and if any tweaks would be suggested. Thanks.

Very nice motion, she is loose and natural. I saw a little bit of resistance but that will pass when she gets stronger. Didnt read much on the rotator cuff, her toss could be a bit more to the right. As long as she is open and tells you when she has pain, it will be ok. Its just a slight adjustment, not scrapping her motion. No biggie

 

[10sDog]

Hi!

First congratulations on your daughter's dedication and progress!

I usually don't look at tennis-warehouse forums and in addition to my coaching and tennis training, I am a sport scientist. I served on USTA Sport Science Committee for 8 years and received US Olympic Committee Coach of the Year Award. Todd Ellenbecker is a friend of mine. He is one of the foremost experts on shoulders/injuries. I saw also someone posted a video by Jim McLennan out in California, another friend.

There are two issues with your daughter's serve. First, her racquet elbow is high and a bit far back as a couple people noted. That places the shoulder in an unstable position. The initial shoulder rotation should be in the shoulder but not back solely with the elbow. Pulling back the elbow especially when it is in line with the shoulders is risky for the rotator cuff. I would suggest the elbow slightly lower and less rotated behind the back but more in line with the shoulders/clavicle line. A couple experts I know, Ben Kibler (noted orthopedic surgeon) and Mark Kovacs (noted exercise physiologist) would also concur that this position is exaggerated. Many athletes think pulling back the elbow and keeping it high adds rotational power. But it's a risky position biomechanically.

Second, the contact point as mentioned as some mentioned here is slightly high. Many players are taught to reach up high as possible but really you don't want that due to impingement. The racquet arm can be ca 10 degrees above the the shoulder line without impingement. That's a different issue than the rotator cuff risk at the initial trophy position (point 1) where her elbow is set too high and back.

She has an advanced serve for her age but I would lay off the extremely vertical or heavy topspin or kick type motions. Given that advanced serving technique, it's important she has a pre-hab shoulder injury prevention routine. Rowing, external rotation exercises, 90-90 exercises are useful. And stretching. Last, yes, there are youth athletes with rotation cuff injuries since they are trying advanced serves and don't have enough strength in those stabilizer muscles. So I have seen a few.

 

[10sDog]

In addition, I can add a bit more from developmental perspective as someone here also commented. Her advanced serving technique has a circular toss. I was big on it quite a few years back when many coaches frowned on it and John Yandell (tennisplayer.net) supports the circular toss as of late. I used to write for tennisplayer.net. I might still submit articles. But that's besides the point, The toss comes back slightly behind her which is a great set-up for heavy topspin and kick serves. Again, although the motion is technically very good for an older athlete, there are issues here with a young player. A few years ago, USTA (under Todd Ellenbecker) conducted a research survey among high performance coaches and we agreed that at 12-13 years old might be a more optimal age for teaching the kick serve or advanced technique. The toss is more for the kick or heavy topspin serve. Just to acknowledge, there can be biomechanical and injury risk issues. She can use the motion but sparingly and work on strengthening and patience. I would have the toss usually stay 3-5" more to the right. Or even more (for flat and slice serves). She can use the slice serve at this age more since it's more gentle on the shoulder. At 13-14 years old, she may be able to use the circular toss more frequently. That is, there is no real rush to get an advanced motion where heavy spin and stressing the shoulders/back won't pay off yet.

 

[Raul_SJ]

I am a sport scientist. I served on USTA Sport Science Committee for 8 years and received US Olympic Committee Coach of the Year Award. Todd Ellenbecker is a friend of mine. He is one of the foremost experts on shoulders/injuries. I saw also someone posted a video by Jim McLennan out in California, another friend.

10sDog, If you get a chance, perhaps you can give quick comment on my kinetic chain/ shoulder load question in other thread.

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/effortless-looking-fast-serve.606325/

Post #20

 

[10sDog]

Hi Raul,

Taking a look. Did you mean the article on ISR by Ben Kibler? I will reply on that thread.

 

[Postpre]

In addition, I can add a bit more from developmental perspective as someone here also commented. Her advanced serving technique has a circular toss. I was big on it quite a few years back when many coaches frowned on it and John Yandell (tennisplayer.net) supports the circular toss as of late. I used to write for tennisplayer.net. I might still submit articles. But that's besides the point, The toss comes back slightly behind her which is a great set-up for heavy topspin and kick serves. Again, although the motion is technically very good for an older athlete, there are issues here with a young player. A few years ago, USTA (under Todd Ellenbecker) conducted a research survey among high performance coaches and we agreed that at 12-13 years old might be a more optimal age for teaching the kick serve or advanced technique. The toss is more for the kick or heavy topspin serve. Just to acknowledge, there can be biomechanical and injury risk issues. She can use the motion but sparingly and work on strengthening and patience. I would have the toss usually stay 3-5" more to the right. Or even more (for flat and slice serves). She can use the slice serve at this age more since it's more gentle on the shoulder. At 13-14 years old, she may be able to use the circular toss more frequently. That is, there is no real rush to get an advanced motion where heavy spin and stressing the shoulders/back won't pay off yet.

10sDog, unbelievably helpful. Your insight into her pulling back with the elbow, and how it's a bit extreme, is exactly what I was hoping another would confirm. In fact, I worked on it with her last night. I would love to send you another video when I help her with a few of the adaptions you suggested. Thanks.

 

[10sDog]

OK...will try to check (I'm not on tennis-warehouse often). But I will note...

 

[BusyMom]

Wut? How many 11 year olds have had rotator cuff injuries?

Anyways, my two cents is that there is too much going on in her take back. I would do a lot more half serves then slowly build into the full serve.

Yes, 11 year olds do get shoulder injuries. It may not be traditional rotator cuff injuries, but still injuries that keep them off the court. My daughter had a problem at that age related to her loose joints. You always need to be concerned about potential injuries. My daughter is in college now, but I can't think of a single peer who hasn't been in a cast, boot or brace for some injury. Many stress fractures. And I know too many who have had surgery in their teens on shoulders and wrists.

 

[CJ Tennis]

Content not available.

 

[PittsburghDad]

She's solid. I have an eleven year old too. Once her serve was solid enough, (not quite as solid as the one in your vid), we left the technique stuff alone. Didn't worry about the arm angles or such. In my experience if you give them a goal of hitting it with more pace and precision and then doing the work, a lot of those things will sort out and you can get at whatever major issues are holding back. Kids tend to be very quick to maximize their physical potential. Its the mental roadblocks that will alter the serve. Clear them out of the way and I bet she figures out an optimal hitting position.

In other words, I wouldn't touch her technique. Let her sort it out.