1st serve pace question and 2nd serve aha moment

[FiReFTW]

So my serve has been my biggest problem for the past months, I made way too many double faults.
I made so many double faults that I even started to use only my 2nd serve for both 1st and 2nd, to give myself more chance to not double fault, my thinking was, I need to limit my double faults so I at least get into the point and not lose the point without even having a chance to rally by double faulting all the time, so I basically was not even hitting my 1st serve much at all in the past weeks in matches.

But now I started thinking a bit if that even is the best strategy, so im wondering what you guys think about this.
Is it reasonable to hit 2nd serve for both my 1st and 2nd serve just to limit my double faults?
Im starting to think it might not be, because even if I get my double faults down both my serves are basically an easy shot for my opponent, as opposed if I hit my 1st serve it can challenge him to make UE, which basically negates the fact that I might make a few more double faults that way, or perhaps its even better in the end, if I can really make him do many UE from my 1st serve, whats your opinion about this?

I made a vid of my 1st serve, so you can see the pace of it, im hitting with a bit variety and sometimes adding some spin while sometimes trying to hit it more flat, im wondering in terms of the pace itself, does it look like it could be problematic for not really that high players, maybe 3.0, 3.5 or something?

I think it would be a better idea to just start hitting 1st serves and just hit my 2nd serve on my 2nd shot, which also brings me to my 2nd point.

My 2nd serve started to improve alot this week, because I had that aha moment, where I realized something.
Ive been going on about the 2nd serve way wrong, my mind and visualization was completely wrong, I visualized hitting from bottom to up, kind of like a groundstroke, which made me hit similarly to my 1st serve, rotate my body more and hit TOWARDS my target more, but try to brush up.
But now I watched some vid on youtube that helped me realize something else, that the swing path is actually completely towards the side almost, which is so counterintuitive to me and felt very odd at the start, but I noticed by doing this I started getting much more net clearance and I can see the ball dips in much more, of course I need a lot of work on this still to make it really consistent, but with this new found thing im really getting some more confidence in my 2nd serve again, when I get a good balltoss and motion it feels its impossible to miss because it clears the net by alot and dips down, the 2nd serve I had before cleared the net much lower and never felt right, but this feels like its it, like im onto the right thing.
Heres a vid of me practicing a bit, this new found knowledge.
One thing that is a bit inconsistent is my toss, sometimes it goes too much towards my right not enough over or back my head, in that case I assume the shot is more of a topspinslice, while when it goes well above my head like in the last shot in this video its going more towards a kick where the bounce also appears to go in a different direction at least so it appears to me?

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

How the heck does his rear leg kick up when he
1) barely even bends his legs?
2) Isn't tossing it deep into the court, since he barely ends up inside the baseline.

Are you kicking it up on purpose or something?

 

[SinjinCooper]

Looking good!

In answer to the one question, I'd be shocked to see 3.0-3.5 players able to attack that kind of second serve with any success or regularity.

Doesn't mean it's a point ender. But it's very much on the right track. And kudos for figuring out the swing path thing on your own. That's DEFINITELY something we coach, and your coming to the conclusion solo is testament to the value of video as a learning tool.

Would I instruct you to keep hitting two second serves? Yeah, I would. But in the name of improving as a player, not necessarily in order to win as much as possible right now.

If anything, go for a little more on those seconds. Once you understand the swing path, and how much spin and clearance it affords you, you come to realize it's pretty much a blank check for generating as much racquet head speed as possible. Maintain that swing path and good contact, and you'll start to see that it's almost literally impossible to hit the ball long as long as nothing breaks down.

That's how you make the leap with that second serve, and I think you're well on the way.

 

[FiReFTW]

How the heck does his rear leg kick up when he
1) barely even bends his legs?
2) Isn't tossing it deep into the court, since he barely ends up inside the baseline.

Are you kicking it up on purpose or something?

Not sure how to answer, I was not really using my legs much at all, focusing mostly on swing etc, dunno really, didnt even notice.

Looking good!

In answer to the one question, I'd be shocked to see 3.0-3.5 players able to attack that kind of second serve with any success or regularity.

Doesn't mean it's a point ender. But it's very much on the right track. And kudos for figuring out the swing path thing on your own. That's DEFINITELY something we coach, and your coming to the conclusion solo is testament to the value of video as a learning tool.

Would I instruct you to keep hitting two second serves? Yeah, I would. But in the name of improving as a player, not necessarily in order to win as much as possible right now.

If anything, go for a little more on those seconds. Once you understand the swing path, and how much spin and clearance it affords you, you come to realize it's pretty much a blank check for generating as much racquet head speed as possible. Maintain that swing path and good contact, and you'll start to see that it's almost literally impossible to hit the ball long as long as nothing breaks down.

That's how you make the leap with that second serve, and I think you're well on the way.

I was actually wondering if they could attack that 1st serve in the 1st video, did you think that aswell but misstyped 2nd?

And yeah, I noticed what you are saying, that I can swing extremely fast and really push up and jump up and generate alot of RHS and the ball wont go long even tho the swing is faster but the ball dips down more aswell like vacuum pulling it down.
So im fully aware that you can infact swing as fast as you can on this shot, because I know some people think you should hit the 2nd serve with more control and less swing speed but I know thats not true.
Tho when I really swing fast and jump up alot my timing is not there yet, as the swing is really very counterintuitive to me, swinging away and all, so I need to really get a good feel for swinging in this way and getting my contact point right aswell as the toss, then gradually add more and more swing speed and more leg push slowly.
Because when I really go for it fast and everything is right (toss,contact point, timing), the ball is faster and dips faster and cant go long, its just that maybe 3 out of 7 swings one of these things break down and its a bit of a misshit, since im not used to timing this stroke at such a speed yet.

I can try to videotape it next time tho if ur interested haha. I mean full speed swing.

 

[SinjinCooper]

I was actually wondering if they could attack that 1st serve in the 1st video, did you think that aswell but misstyped 2nd?

No, I meant second. But for sure, the firsts don't look attackable either, at least not by that level player. From what I've seen at tournaments, a serve has to be pretty much a patty cake effort to be consistently attackable by 3.0-3.5 return games.

But the bigger point had to do with the second, and your decision to rely on it 100% of the time. That's something I preach to all my kids. Use that thing until it becomes an absolute hammer, after which, add the first back in. The second serve is a seriously limiting factor in advancement beyond the 4.0 level, and having a top shelf one will really set you apart from the crowd. It's a huge advantage to know you're going to start every service point, no matter who you're playing, without being at a disadvantage.

It has the side benefit of practically ensuring you have to work at point construction and consistency -- two OTHER huge hurdles in advancing beyond 4.0.

Because when I really go for it fast and everything is right (toss,contact point, timing), the ball is faster and dips faster and cant go long, its just that maybe 3 out of 7 swings one of these things break down and its a bit of a misshit, since im not used to timing this stroke at such a speed yet.

I can try to videotape it next time tho if ur interested haha. I mean full speed swing.

Yeah, it'll take time. "First day out" isn't the time to get discouraged. Keep at it and the swing path and timing will sort themselves out and you'll get well beyond that 4/7 number. That's what practice is for.

Oh yeah, practice your toss. From setup to trophy position, with racquet in hand. Over and over until it's right. Straight arm, release at eye level. It's the one thing in tennis that takes less than a week to get to ATP level, and it's incredibly important, and still nobody practices the damn thing. Drives me bat****.

 

[NuBas]

Great tip on brushing the side for kick serve instead of straight bottom to top! My topspin serve isn't that great and I think your tip is gonna help me.

Its awesome to see good progress, I knew you had it all along.

 

[FiReFTW]

No, I meant second. But for sure, the firsts don't look attackable either, at least not by that level player. From what I've seen at tournaments, a serve has to be pretty much a patty cake effort to be consistently attackable by 3.0-3.5 return games.

But the bigger point had to do with the second, and your decision to rely on it 100% of the time. That's something I preach to all my kids. Use that thing until it becomes an absolute hammer, after which, add the first back in. The second serve is a seriously limiting factor in advancement beyond the 4.0 level, and having a top shelf one will really set you apart from the crowd. It's a huge advantage to know you're going to start every service point, no matter who you're playing, without being at a disadvantage.

It has the side benefit of practically ensuring you have to work at point construction and consistency -- two OTHER huge hurdles in advancing beyond 4.0.



Yeah, it'll take time. "First day out" isn't the time to get discouraged. Keep at it and the swing path and timing will sort themselves out and you'll get well beyond that 4/7 number. That's what practice is for.

Oh yeah, practice your toss. From setup to trophy position, with racquet in hand. Over and over until it's right. Straight arm, release at eye level. It's the one thing in tennis that takes less than a week to get to ATP level, and it's incredibly important, and still nobody practices the damn thing. Drives me bat****.

You helped me alot with your tips.
I was not quite sure how to proceed now, but now for sure I agree with you, and will work on my 2nd serve and even use it in matches 90% of the time (might throw in a 1st here or there just to mix it up a bit) which should really help me advance this serve to a high level, and only then will I start working on my 1st serve and using it in matches as my 1st serve.

Im really excited about this, because the 2nd serve was my achilles heel. And the one I used before never felt right and I had no confidence in it, and it was by far the most limiting factor for me.

I play with a few players now, some similar level to me, some quite higher, but im fairly satisfied with my groundstroke game and return game, even when playing someone well above my level ai might get crushed 1st set, not used to the pace of shots, but as time went by I started getting used to it and comfortable returning those fast serves and held my own at groundstroke exchanges.
But my 2nd serve always failed me.
Usually when I won a set or lost it, I won most of my points from breaking my opponent, and by playing quite well, but I lost so many service games, not by my opponent destroying me, but by gifting him points, sometimes 2 or 3 double faults in one service game, I was so pissed because I knew I played well but this completely killed my chances.
Nobody knows better than me the fact that many people say 2nd serve is the most important shot in tennis. Nothing will hold u back as much as having a crap inconsistent 2nd serve.

But now ive finaly found it, found the right motion and swingpath and I finally feel it, like this is it, the super consistent serve I was looking for, now I just need to drill the hell out of it.
But this one thing will improve my game alot, because groundstrokes and return and everything was so far ahead in terms of level compared to 2nd serve, but this held me back so much in terms of overall performance, that im super excited now about this.

 

[LeeD]

Keep practicing the first serve. At that speed, it should go in at least 50% of the time, which is plenty good for match play. The reasoning is, even when it goes in half the time, half of that, it's a winner or forced error. But you have to swing faster if you can.
Your second serve is also good. But you also need to swing faster with it for 4.0 work. Learn to hit spots, all 3, and you're good to go.
As for which to use....it's not either or. There are variances in speed of both. You learn to hit slower first serves, and you learn to hit faster second serves. It's not either or, it's what YOU choose for when.

 

[FiReFTW]

Keep practicing the first serve. At that speed, it should go in at least 50% of the time, which is plenty good for match play. The reasoning is, even when it goes in half the time, half of that, it's a winner or forced error. But you have to swing faster if you can.
Your second serve is also good. But you also need to swing faster with it for 4.0 work. Learn to hit spots, all 3, and you're good to go.
As for which to use....it's not either or. There are variances in speed of both. You learn to hit slower first serves, and you learn to hit faster second serves. It's not either or, it's what YOU choose for when.

Yea it does go in at least 50% of the time, the 1st serve.
Regarding the pace I agree I need more pace, but sometimes I can hit it much harder than on this vid (particular day) and my arm feels like spagheti, veryyyy loooose.
And other days I hit it even slower than on vid, cuz my arm feels too tight and cant seem to get it loose.

 

[ChaelAZ]

Is it reasonable to hit 2nd serve for both my 1st and 2nd serve just to limit my double faults?

First, looks like a lovely area and I am jealous of the red clay. It is on my bucket list to play.

So, I am a little different in my approach to serving. I started in 3.5 with a very hard first and second serve. I actually had more second serve aces than first serve just because people presume your will et off a bit. My thought process was, when I tried to easy up on the second serve I took myself out of form too much (decelerating, wrong contact points trying to "just get it in", and so on) and I would double fault more. So I stuck with two first serves and was at least a 60/40 server between the two serves. Moving up to 4.0 though, as I mentioned in another thread, I had to develop different first serves and second serves so I could have variety in speed, kick, and placement. So I still do not have a typical reduce or kick second serve, but I have a variety I use for both first and second.

So for using what would be considered slower serve and kick serve for both first and second, I do this when I am struggling with my serve. I work through mid paced serves until I get my confidence back up and can get back to more variety. I am all for reducing double faults and building confidence that way.

 

[Chas Tennis]

.........................
But now I watched some vid on youtube that helped me realize something else, that the swing path is actually completely towards the side almost, which is so counterintuitive to me and felt very odd at the start, ............................ but with this new found thing .......................
[/MEDIA]

Swing path of the racket or hand?

Signature of a high level serve. Seen well when the camera is viewing along hand path. Toly composite picture.

Approaching the ball when the edge of the racket is edge pointing to the ball, lower red arrow, that is when strong ISR accelerates the racket up to speed. The arm is near straight when the racket is about edge on to the ball and ISR occurs. Red arrows indicate the range of strong ISR acceleration.

The hand path looks to be in a plane but the racket head path shows ISR, supination, and pronation rotations.

In one of your serves by chance, the camera also views along the hand path, the serve at 1:24 of the original video. This serve and camera view gives the signature of your serve.

View this video single frame by stopping before impact. Hold down the SHIFT KEY and use the ARROW KEYS.

I interpret that 60 fps and the other serves to be a racket moving more in a straight line in the plane of the hand path. The composite picture above shows how the racket of a high level serve moves - not in the plane of the hand path. As in an earlier analysis of the OP's serve the ISR is late and not effective. A shadow at his elbow often shows ISR. A high speed video would make the racket motion clear without interpreting.

Unfortunately, Toly is no longer posting those great composite pictures.

 

[LeeD]

OP does lack pronation to flatten out his serves.
And he should try to swing faster, especially on spin and second serves.

 

[M Pillai]

Those second serves looks good. Good loop. I would say if the opponent is not "punishing" your second serves keep doing both second serves, and work your way up slowly. There are many playing styles, but most folks do better by learning to position their serves properly and predicting and getting ready for the next ground shot. Eventually you will get your foot cleaned up and will up your racket speed, and will get easy pace and aggression on serves.

a) Varying serves all the time (speed/angles/position) will confuse the opponent. (at the cost of some serve rythm).
b) Hitting same exact serves over and over will make your serve consistent, and get you into a grove quickly. (at the cost of opponent getting used to your serve).

Most folks would stay somewhere in between a and b based on their confidence on serves.

Flat serve is slightly overrated at lower levels and many try to up the pace with wrong mechanics and finally end up doing a complete rework of their flat serve when they get to advanced levels. So I suggest slow progression of pace, especially when you have a dependable topspin serve.

I think it would be a better idea to just start hitting 1st serves and just hit my 2nd serve on my 2nd shot, which also brings me to my 2nd point.

My 2nd serve started to improve alot this week, because I had that aha moment, where I realized something.

 

[Bender]

How the heck does his rear leg kick up when he
1) barely even bends his legs?
2) Isn't tossing it deep into the court, since he barely ends up inside the baseline.

Are you kicking it up on purpose or something?

That happens when your body falls forwards. Accomplished even easier if the toss is well inside the baseline, but can still be done even without.

 

[Bender]

OP, I was expecting videos on sand castles based on the bucket you had your balls in.

OT, at the 3.0-3.5 / intermediate levels, you will hold comfortably hitting those second serves of yours for first and seconds. Most people don't split step on the ROS anyway, so you don't need much pace to get them off balance, because few take the mandatory steps (pun not intended) needed to always stay balanced on the return. You could win quite easily even with underarm serves, provided your placement is halfway decent.

Most people at this level lose serve by trying to play a level above what they are capable of, especially on serve, trying to go for the hero shots, so keeping the ball regardless of where you place it will get the job done, even if not in a manner that is attractive to watch.

 

[FiReFTW]

Swing path of the racket or hand?

Signature of a high level serve. Seen well when the camera is viewing along hand path. Toly composite picture.

Approaching the ball when the edge of the racket is edge pointing to the ball, that is when strong ISR accelerates the racket up to speed. The arm is near straight when the racket is about edge on to the ball and ISR occurs.

The hand path looks to be in a plane but the racket head path shows ISR, supination, and pronation rotations.

In one of your serves by chance, the camera also views along the hand path, the serve at 1:24 of the original video. This serve and camera view gives the signature of your serve.

View this video single frame by stopping before impact. Hold down the SHIFT KEY and use the ARROW KEYS.

I interpret that 60 fps and the other serves to be a racket moving more in a straight line in the plane of the hand path. The composite picture above shows how the racket of a high level serve moves - not in the plane of the hand path. As in an earlier analysis of the OP's serve the ISR is late and not effective. A shadow at his elbow often shows ISR. A high speed video would make the racket motion clear without interpreting.

Unfortunately, Toly is no longer posting those great composite pictures.

Hm, thats very interesting, seems like those high level players supinate the arm much more, so much so that the racquet goes away from their body, then pronates to the other side , while mine seems to be in line with my arm mostly, really interesting.
What do you think is the reason for this? Do you know any drills I could do to be more aware of this and fix it?

 

[Chas Tennis]

Hm, thats very interesting, seems like those high level players supinate the arm much more, so much so that the racquet goes away from their body, then pronates to the other side , while mine seems to be in line with my arm mostly, really interesting.
What do you think is the reason for this? Do you know any drills I could do to be more aware of this and fix it?

Pronation and supination are there along with many other joint motions. I don't know most of the details, angles, muscle use, timing..... I can analyze high speed videos on those joints when interested. From looking a little in the past, I believe supination occurs mostly because of body/upper body rotation, the way the arm and racket are held and centrifugal force (an apparent force that acts outward on a body moving around a center, arising from the body's inertia.) Too complex for words - I recommend high speed videos. But why some motions occur are not directly shown in videos. Muscles?

The ISR has been well researched and published but the supination is not as strong an effect and is not discussed very often. I have just studied a few of the most important joint motions leading to impact and worked back from there. This follows the approach of researchers B. Elliott, Marshall et al. These researchers published important work on the serve. They made measurements of speeds vs time for several of the most important joint motions. For example, their publications show pronation/supination speed vs time leading to impact. See "Forearm pronation", where negative pronation is supination.

Suggest understanding the strong ISR before impact first. I interpret your 60 fps videos to mean your ISR starts late, too close to impact. Your forearm to racket angle timing never looks right in your serves. ISR is produced largely by pre-stretched muscles. Stretching those muscles is important for the ISR to work and the service motion does that.

Did you read about pronation and ISR and decide to make sure that you put that into your serve? But you don't know the timing of the ISR before impact or have studied it in high speed videos? 200 fps+ with small motion blur is required.

I'm comparing high level strokes to posters strokes and pointing out what I think may be differences. I'm not an instructor.

You don't have to change your serve. But then you have a miscellaneous technique and are on your own. That is what the majority of active tennis players are doing. The Tennis Serve Nuthouse.......

 

[SinjinCooper]

You helped me alot with your tips.
I was not quite sure how to proceed now, but now for sure I agree with you, and will work on my 2nd serve and even use it in matches 90% of the time (might throw in a 1st here or there just to mix it up a bit) which should really help me advance this serve to a high level, and only then will I start working on my 1st serve and using it in matches as my 1st serve.

Im really excited about this, because the 2nd serve was my achilles heel. And the one I used before never felt right and I had no confidence in it, and it was by far the most limiting factor for me.

I play with a few players now, some similar level to me, some quite higher, but im fairly satisfied with my groundstroke game and return game, even when playing someone well above my level ai might get crushed 1st set, not used to the pace of shots, but as time went by I started getting used to it and comfortable returning those fast serves and held my own at groundstroke exchanges.
But my 2nd serve always failed me.
Usually when I won a set or lost it, I won most of my points from breaking my opponent, and by playing quite well, but I lost so many service games, not by my opponent destroying me, but by gifting him points, sometimes 2 or 3 double faults in one service game, I was so pissed because I knew I played well but this completely killed my chances.
Nobody knows better than me the fact that many people say 2nd serve is the most important shot in tennis. Nothing will hold u back as much as having a crap inconsistent 2nd serve.

But now ive finaly found it, found the right motion and swingpath and I finally feel it, like this is it, the super consistent serve I was looking for, now I just need to drill the hell out of it.
But this one thing will improve my game alot, because groundstrokes and return and everything was so far ahead in terms of level compared to 2nd serve, but this held me back so much in terms of overall performance, that im super excited now about this.

Nice.

Sounds like a good mindset.

Bear in mind that while I believe this is the best path for improvement, that's not necessarily the same thing as what's best for the moment.

I build my programs around making players as successful as possible in a year. Not as successful as possible for this Wednesday's league match. And sometimes, the two things are in opposition. I believe in working on fundamentals -- ESPECIALLY fundamentals that are weaknesses -- under match conditions.

Whatever you choose to work on, I hope it gets you to where you want to go.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Nice.

Sounds like a good mindset.

Bear in mind that while I believe this is the best path for improvement, that's not necessarily the same thing as what's best for the moment.

I build my programs around making players as successful as possible in a year. Not as successful as possible for this Wednesday's league match. And sometimes, the two things are in opposition. I believe in working on fundamentals -- ESPECIALLY fundamentals that are weaknesses -- under match conditions.

Whatever you choose to work on, I hope it gets you to where you want to go.

What do you think of the effectiveness of his ISR? Are you writing off the ISR?

 

[FiReFTW]

Did you read about pronation and ISR and decide to make sure that you put that into your serve? But you don't know the timing of the ISR before impact or have studied it in high speed videos? 200 fps+ with small motion blur is required.

Well this I can for sure tell you I did not, im aware of supination and pronation being an important part of the serve, but I focus on some other fundamentals more, I dont focus on that part at all, whatever motion of my arm happens after it swings forward feels like its automated from whatever I did before with my body, the arm feels mostly relaxed and like a passenger, alltho sometimes it feels very relaxed like I had a rope as an arm, then my serve has the highest pace and feels very loose, other times arm feels a bit less loose (like in this vid), and other times it might feel even more tight (mostly during matches sometimes).

So whatever my arm does is a result of everything before, so if i lack enough pronation or timing of it is off something before that must be a bit off.

 

[MajesticMoose]

I'll just say that if you're struggling with DFs, start working on the kick serve. You should be able to aggressively swing and brush the side of the ball while keeping the hitting elbow parallel to the baseline. Use your legs too. You'll be amazed at how hard you can swing and have the ball just dip down into the box still. It's all about that swing path and what the hitting arm is doing.

 

[LeeD]

If you're struggling with DF''s right now, it might be smarter to work on a top/slice second serve, until that becomes consistent.
Adding a kick serve, while you're struggling with just a slower spin serve, might be a recipe for confusion.

 

[BlackTatsu]

From what I see, you should keep that tossing arm up a tad longer and as it comes down the shoulder should rotate over with the hitting arm.

As others have mentioned, don't worry about kick serves. Topspin/slice serve with good placement can make it to 4.5.

 

[FiReFTW]

If you're struggling with DF''s right now, it might be smarter to work on a top/slice second serve, until that becomes consistent.
Adding a kick serve, while you're struggling with just a slower spin serve, might be a recipe for confusion.

I think my DF won't be much of an issue anymore with this new swingpath im doing now, it was a big issue before, but now that ive figured this out the serves are more consistent than they were already before, and ive only figured it out/practiced it for 2 times now, so I think just a few times worth of practice and I think my 2nd serve will be much more consistent than before (at least at this swing pace now), then il just keep adding swing pace and slowly get more comfortable till im hitting at full speed.
Will try and practice all variations of topspin slice and kick aswell, it doesn't seem so hard to me you just need the toss to be in a different position than topspin slice, the last shot in my 2nd serve vid was a kick serve if im not mistaken? 0:45 onward

 

[Digital Atheist]

What do you think of the effectiveness of his ISR? Are you writing off the ISR?

No one is writing off ISR as far as I know, but focusing on it as part of his current motion probably won't be that beneficial.

OP, serve looks good, second serve in particular. I do agree with @LeeD that your first delivery lacks pronation (or ISR or whatever you want to call it) as you do tend to carve across the ball somewhat, although I bet your slice seve to the deuce court is a pain to deal with.

I might get some heat for this, and I'm not saying it will or won't work, but you could try this Serena tip:

Alternatively, if you want to develop a feel for pronation before incorporating it into your full motion, try this:

 

[FiReFTW]

No one is writing off ISR as far as I know, but focusing on it as part of his current motion probably won't be that beneficial.

OP, serve looks good, second serve in particular. I do agree with @LeeD that your first delivery lacks pronation (or ISR or whatever you want to call it) as you do tend to carve across the ball somewhat, although I bet your slice seve to the deuce court is a pain to deal with.

I might get some heat for this, and I'm not saying it will or won't work, but you could try this Serena tip:

Alternatively, if you want to develop a feel for pronation before incorporating it into your full motion, try this:

I did try this move in the 2nd vid once a few weeks ago, trying to rotate the arm like this and have it bent with buttcap up.
I must have not done it right, because I pulled my forearm muscles doing it.

 

[SinjinCooper]

Topspin/slice serve with good placement can make it to 4.5 7.0 multi-slam all time great.

 

[SinjinCooper]

I did try this move in the 2nd vid once a few weeks ago, trying to rotate the arm like this and have it bent with buttcap up.
I must have not done it right, because I pulled my forearm muscles doing it.

Never, ever try to "train" ISR/pronation. It's not an exercise. It's not even a muscular motion (all muscular "involvement" is passive and incidental). It's connective tissues pulling the arm through a rotational path in order to PREVENT injuries to muscles. It's a natural occurance that comes automatically with a good motion. Anyone telling you to incorporate it into practice or exercise is a hack and ought to be disregarded with extreme prejudice.

If your rotator cuff hurts after this, you tried to force it at the shoulder joint. If your elbow or forearm hurts, you tried to force it at the forearm. Do neither.

 

[FiReFTW]

Never, ever try to "train" ISR/pronation. It's not an exercise. It's not even a muscular motion (all muscular "involvement" is passive and incidental). It's connective tissues pulling the arm through a rotational path in order to PREVENT injuries to muscles. It's a natural occurance that comes automatically with a good motion. Anyone telling you to incorporate it into practice or exercise is a hack and ought to be disregarded with extreme prejudice.

If your rotator cuff hurts after this, you tried to force it at the shoulder joint. If your elbow or forearm hurts, you tried to force it at the forearm. Do neither.

Yeah, I do think you have a point, im sure the high level players dont use muscles to muscle the pronation.
I think the key is good motionand everything hapoening prior to that point aswell as a very loose arm.
I notice sometimes when I just somehow feel my arm is extremely loose on the serve like a rope like I mentioned before, I get insane amounts of power, feels like twice the speed of my usual serve, ball just shoots off and its more effortless even then when i try to go for power but dont end up being so loose.
I think thats when I really have a good morion prior and get my arm very loose and this isr pronation is much better then, thats why I must get so much more power, I have no other explanation.
But its really hard to replicate, sometimes I just feel it and my arm is so relaxed, but when its not I try to get it there but just doesnt seem to happen.

 

[Digital Atheist]

Anyone telling you to incorporate it into practice or exercise is a hack and ought to be disregarded with extreme prejudice.

Each to their own, but I don't think McCraw is a hack (unless you were talking about me, but I can't take credit for someone elses drills and their recommended purpose - the purpose being to learn what pronation feels like).

IIRC you're not a Tomaz from Feeltennis fan either.

youtube.com/watch?v=-9cIObcQyME

I really like the Serve Doctors fence drill for learning pronation and can't see how it would cause any undue harm (not suggesting he invented the drill):

youtu.be/xjXJGsRtm08?t=210

Seems like plenty of other coaches recommend pronation drills as an exercise:

youtube.com/watch?v=6w9guyWmvbQ
youtube.com/watch?v=oaEH2OOLdb8
youtu.be/FQGEUsAqEgs?t=150
youtube.com/watch?v=QHayHmAgBms
youtube.com/watch?v=ZvZd1N3Mv1A

There are more including the likes of Jim McLennan (who I certainly don't consider a hack & I don't think Bolletieri is either). In short, pronation, like ISR, is something that generally occurs naturally and shouldn't be forced as part of a full serve when everything else is done right (something I've said before, but it doesn't happen like that for everybody). There are a number of online sources that think it's worth teaching the basic principle, maybe because it isn't natural for everyone and the feeling can apparently be learned. I happen to agree with this line of thinking and don't see it as being detrimental - on the other hand, trying to implement a smooth continuous motion for a lot of recreational players can IMO be worse than using a small hesitation, as the hesitation can aid with the timing of the leg drive/racquet drop (yeah I know all the best pro servers have a continuous motion). Thats also just my opinion and plenty will disagree.

 

[StringSnapper]

So my serve has been my biggest problem for the past months, I made way too many double faults.
I made so many double faults that I even started to use only my 2nd serve for both 1st and 2nd, to give myself more chance to not double fault, my thinking was, I need to limit my double faults so I at least get into the point and not lose the point without even having a chance to rally by double faulting all the time, so I basically was not even hitting my 1st serve much at all in the past weeks in matches.

But now I started thinking a bit if that even is the best strategy, so im wondering what you guys think about this.
Is it reasonable to hit 2nd serve for both my 1st and 2nd serve just to limit my double faults?
Im starting to think it might not be, because even if I get my double faults down both my serves are basically an easy shot for my opponent, as opposed if I hit my 1st serve it can challenge him to make UE, which basically negates the fact that I might make a few more double faults that way, or perhaps its even better in the end, if I can really make him do many UE from my 1st serve, whats your opinion about this?

I made a vid of my 1st serve, so you can see the pace of it, im hitting with a bit variety and sometimes adding some spin while sometimes trying to hit it more flat, im wondering in terms of the pace itself, does it look like it could be problematic for not really that high players, maybe 3.0, 3.5 or something?

I think it would be a better idea to just start hitting 1st serves and just hit my 2nd serve on my 2nd shot, which also brings me to my 2nd point.

My 2nd serve started to improve alot this week, because I had that aha moment, where I realized something.
Ive been going on about the 2nd serve way wrong, my mind and visualization was completely wrong, I visualized hitting from bottom to up, kind of like a groundstroke, which made me hit similarly to my 1st serve, rotate my body more and hit TOWARDS my target more, but try to brush up.
But now I watched some vid on youtube that helped me realize something else, that the swing path is actually completely towards the side almost, which is so counterintuitive to me and felt very odd at the start, but I noticed by doing this I started getting much more net clearance and I can see the ball dips in much more, of course I need a lot of work on this still to make it really consistent, but with this new found thing im really getting some more confidence in my 2nd serve again, when I get a good balltoss and motion it feels its impossible to miss because it clears the net by alot and dips down, the 2nd serve I had before cleared the net much lower and never felt right, but this feels like its it, like im onto the right thing.
Heres a vid of me practicing a bit, this new found knowledge.
One thing that is a bit inconsistent is my toss, sometimes it goes too much towards my right not enough over or back my head, in that case I assume the shot is more of a topspinslice, while when it goes well above my head like in the last shot in this video its going more towards a kick where the bounce also appears to go in a different direction at least so it appears to me?

I see youre playing on clay in the video. Got any grass courts around? Sometimes on slow hardcourts (and clay) i feel like the serve doesn't matter cos its so hard to get anything from it. On grass i pay a lot more attention on it because it wins me points.

Its also important to get direction with a decent hit. If you hit up the middle, youll usually get a reply dowb the middle (i.e. good to volley off of). Whereas if you go wide and theyre off the court when returning, you can hit it to the other side where theyre not there. Atleast gives you a good start in the points

 

[Attila_the_gorilla]

Supination is the result of starting sideways, then opening up towards the court. The momentum from this rotation carries your racket out towards the side fence. Just another one of all those passive movements that will happen if you get the basics right. Ie: start side on, and rotate to open up, especially for first serves. For second serves you may wanna stay side-on to maximize your spin to speed ratio.

 

[Carefree]

2nd serve looks pretty good. I just think you need to do a couple of things to get more pace and kick on it.

Keep that tossing hand up, straight, for longer. Get more knee bend for drive. Get your hips forward.

But, I think it's a good reliable second serve as is that will be fine at 4.0.