2hbh lh fh drill/practice thread

[ByeByePoly]

I am planning on committing some time to hitting left hand forehands to see if it helps my 2hbh. I have hit the 2hbh for 2+ years, and have just now started to hit lhfhs, so it should be easy to gauge any improvement. I thought it would be interesting to hear how others practice (or have practiced) the lhfhs.

Post anything related ... how you practice with lhfh, for a specific goal like topspin/touch, did it help, any good videos on the subject, etc.

My plan is to track my practice in one post (initial post and just keep editing for additions)

 

[ByeByePoly]

First lh fh drill narrow controlled test (will expand later if I get results from this first effort):

Goal: to see a tighter shot pattern with topspin 2hbh than before the lh fh drills.

- all ball machine (not playing matches yet post injury)
- measure will be 2hbh shot pattern on full topspin stroke to bh corner target (cone) ... about 3 feet in from baseline and 3 feet in from sideline
- will hit all lh fh as follows: ... closed/neutral stance with weight transfer, release right hand from top of backswing, try and drop racquet (hand and racquet head) to same slot location I would with basic low to high topspin 2hbh, try and hit straight left arm (I hit bent/straight 2hbh), try and extend straight left arm (extension like I try with 2hbh), and shoot for racquet following through over right ear and tapping me on the back (easier to type than do ). I am being this specific/detailed ... because trying to really test the narrow proposition that "practicing a similar lhfh swing path will improve my 2hbh with the same basic swing path". I am trying to hit the cone with topspin ... the cone feels quite safe at this point.
- ball machine feeding ball right down the middle with max pace for 2hbhs, and back it off a little for lhfhs to help with initial timing.

Week 1

7/23/18 session (40 balls in hopper)
- one hopper 2hbh
- 5 hoppers lh fh (200)
- a couple hoppers 2hbh

7/23/18 Comments/Observations:

I plan to up the lhfh count per session, but figure might be a good idea to work up to it ... getting lh fh golfer elbow is not going to help the 2hbh. In fact, I think someone who has never hit a 2hbh should be careful with there initial lhfh rep count. I have hit a 2hbh for 2+ years, so my left arm/hand has a lot of "training" ... and I could still fill slight fatigue after 200. The bigger problem is more mishits ... although I could already see lh fh improvement this time over trying it before. Too early for any feedback on 2hbh.

7/25/18 session
- 5 hoppers lh fh (200)

7/25/18 Comments/Observations:

Today (guess this will be a lh fh diary ) I think my best thought/addition to the lhfh drill was to use it also to ingrain extension muscle memory. In my 2hbh ... my thought is to reach for net/ball machine/cone in follow through ... left arm extended away from torso (rec version of Nadal pic Jolly posted below. That is a left arm extension ... why not do that with lhfhs. I now do ... or at least try because my lhfh would still not pass a breath analyser test.

As I stated above, my intention was all closed stance weight transfer lhfhs. Funny thing is ... if I'm not thinking about it my body defaults to open stance. I have no idea why ... maybe it has been watching my FHs. At this point, I hit the open lhfhs better. I think that is an indication that weight transfer might add more timing issues than we might think. We all learned weight transfer FHs so long ago probably just don't remember. I already knew ... because 2hbh learning curve is recent/current. I will now hit both open and closed lhfhs ... I think open might be helpful for ros.

I focused more on left hand being at same 2hbh slot , and tried to mimic lag also (per @nytennisaddict comments).

One of the problems with the lh fh drill is it has to get good enough so you can get closer to mimicking the 2hbh left arm/hand use (if you are trying to like I am). After two lhfh sessions, my 2hbh isn't better yet, but my lhfh is.

7/27/18 session
- 3 hoppers lh fh (120)

7/27/18 Comments/Observations:

Finished 1st week of lhfhs ... 520 total ... so one wall session for NYTA.

At the end of week #1, 2hbh not better yet, but lhfh is. I intend to continue with lhfhs next week.

Week 2

7/30/18 session
- 5 hoppers lh fh (200)

7/30/18 Comments/Observations:

- going to give it one more week, with a goal of a minimum of 1000 2hfhs. After today I am up to 720.

- most important observation today was to make sure I take the full backswing with right shoulder under chin. You are thinking about a lot of things on a new stroke, and you sometimes forget basic things. Reminder ... I am doing this as a narrow test to see if my closed stance weight transfer 2hbh gets improvement from 2hfh drills. One might practice abbreviated 2hbhs on purpose for scramble situations ... but the 2hbh is particularly weak without a good shoulder turn.

- also tried to pull with right side right before I swung lhfh ... not easy actually.

 

[Traffic]

So is the goal to train your LH to have a more dominant role in a 2HBH?

 

[J011yroger]

Coach does a drill where he stands on my side of the court and hand feeds me, I stand next to the doubles alley and hit all balls in the alley so I have feedback that I'm hitting straight.

One LHFH, one THBH with just the right thumb and pointer finger on the racquet, one THBH with the right thumb, pointer and middle finger on the racquet, one thbh with everything but the right pinky on the racquet, one normal 2HBH.

Then you keep repeating going through the progression.

Right hand fingers are on the racquet very lightly during the drill.

J

 

[ByeByePoly]

So is the goal to train your LH to have a more dominant role in a 2HBH?

I don't find that as simple a question as it seems. I think my 2hbh will always be right side dominant at start of swing with left shoulder and arm mainly along for ride at first. So "no" to any change in backswing and initial forward swing. Once I fire left (reminds me, all 2hbh and lf fh in this initial test will be closed stance weight transfer .. I will add that above) ... then dominance could mean different things (power, racquet face control, swing path). I know you are an engineer, so probably will get my need for detail and logic. Doc @Dartagnan64 won't like it.

So power ... already left dominant by contact. If these drills add pace to my 2hbh, I would have to say ... yeah!!! yes ... more left dominance.

Racquet face ... I concluded from various things that I control racquet face with my right arm/hand. Maybe we all vary on that, but after 40+ years 1hbh ... no, I don't want the left hand controlling racquet face more.

Swing path ... both hand path and racquet head. My guess is THIS is the reason/promise of lh fh drills ... more control/precision/timing. This is when I feel my left hand in play the most ... racquet head low (particularly experimenting with the bigger rh drops).

So ... no, maybe, yes

 

[ByeByePoly]

Coach does a drill where he stands on my side of the court and hand feeds me, I stand next to the doubles alley and hit all balls in the alley so I have feedback that I'm hitting straight.

One LHFH, one THBH with just the right thumb and pointer finger on the racquet, one THBH with the right thumb, pointer and middle finger on the racquet, one thbh with everything but the right pinky on the racquet, one normal 2HBH.

Then you keep repeating going through the progression.

Right hand fingers are on the racquet very lightly during the drill.

J

Very interesting ... what is the goal? More left arm/hand coordination?

 

[J011yroger]

Very interesting ... what is the goal? More left arm/hand coordination?

He says the entire left side of my body kind of sucks so he is trying to get it with the program.

J

 

[Deleted member 23235]

I don't find that as simple a question as it seems. I think my 2hbh will always be right side dominant at start of swing with left shoulder and arm mainly along for ride at first. So "no" to any change in backswing and initial forward swing. Once I fire left (reminds me, all 2hbh and lf fh in this initial test will be closed stance weight transfer .. I will add that above) ... then dominance could mean different things (power, racquet face control, swing path). I know you are an engineer, so probably will get my need for detail and logic. Doc @Dartagnan64 won't like it.

So power ... already left dominant by contact. If these drills add pace to my 2hbh, I would have to say ... yeah!!! yes ... more left dominance.

Racquet face ... I concluded from various things that I control racquet face with my right arm/hand. Maybe we all vary on that, but after 40+ years 1hbh ... no, I don't want the left hand controlling racquet face more.

Swing path ... both hand path and racquet head. My guess is THIS is the reason/promise of lh fh drills ... more control/precision/timing. This is when I feel my left hand in play the most ... racquet head low (particularly experimenting with the bigger rh drops).

So ... no, maybe, yes

ironically, my right arm "powers" the shot (ie. dragged by my core which is really doing the powering)... my left arm, just focuses on the topspin (obviously there's a blend of responsibilities...
when i do lhfh, i focus exclusively on hitting heavy topspin via lag and snap.
when you do 2hbh, make sure you turn your back to the target.
my $0.02

 

[Deleted member 23235]

i'll see if i can post a vid of one of the drills i do on the wall...
125 lhfh
125 alternativing lhfh, 2hbh
125 2hbh, focusing on heavy spin
125 2hbh, hard with (hopefully) heavy spin...
should see the ball "jump" off the wall

 

[Dragy]

Was wondering, are you really supposed to make lhfh work exactly like your dhbh? It seems to me you cannot, once you take away right arm and no more have it pull the racquet. Also, are you supposed to produce full-power lhfh? If I was going to do this drill, I'd start with compact preparation and do mild strokes, maybe against the wall (and pretty close to that wall). Then maybe fasten the uncoil for more rapid acceleration and pronounced lag. I say that based on the general understanding which seems to exist: it's right arm which gives the first kick pulling the handle.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Was wondering, are you really supposed to make lhfh work exactly like your dhbh? It seems to me you cannot, once you take away right arm and no more have it pull the racquet. Also, are you supposed to produce full-power lhfh? If I was going to do this drill, I'd start with compact preparation and do mild strokes, maybe against the wall (and pretty close to that wall). Then maybe fasten the uncoil for more rapid acceleration and pronounced lag. I say that based on the general understanding which seems to exist: it's right arm which gives the first kick pulling the handle.

I would say no, imo ... you can't recreate exactly what your left arm/hand does in a 2hbh. I am trying these lh fhs with the hope that lh fh skills still translates to 2hbh gains. If you read my post in the other thread, I think I came very close to the use of my left arm/hand in my 2hbh as follows:

I took my 2hbh swing as usual, but at he slot I took my right arm off. I extended my left arm and swung through contact with the remaining lhfh on a similar swing plane and follow through as the 2hbh. Still obviously not exactly the same ... you lost an entire arm including mass/momentum from that 8+ lbs.

 

[Dragy]

Yeah and I question your intent to produce similar swingpath, especially the follow-through part. I suggest that you look for some natural swing based on takeback/torso preparation relevant to 2hbh. Moreover, this might make your actual 2hbh swingpath and followthrough evolve, huh?

 

[ByeByePoly]

ironically, my right arm "powers" the shot (ie. dragged by my core which is really doing the powering)... my left arm, just focuses on the topspin (obviously there's a blend of responsibilities...
when i do lhfh, i focus exclusively on hitting heavy topspin via lag and snap.
when you do 2hbh, make sure you turn your back to the target.
my $0.02

My guess is we all send our shoulders/arm triangle on their forward swing from our core and right side power. In my swing, that core isn't still dragging/powering at contact. It didn't on the 1hbh either. The core and right shoulder (back I assume) fired at forward swing, but then right arm traveled on it's own to contact. The 2hbh seems similar, but with left arm hand dominant finish into conatact. I hit bent/straight, so by contact my right arm is t-rex so and left arm straight.

It's easy to not understand what's going on in a 2hbh because there is two of everything. Just now shadowing swinging I am not quite as sure left arm/hand is totally controlling low to high swing plane of the hand. It feels more like a swing of the arm triangle ... with left hand being active to get racquet head up at contact.

I think the reason to be this detailed with the 2hbh is because there appears to be big variations in arm dominance. I wouldn't think Venus bent/bent huge left dominant would benifit from the exact same drills as Agassi straight/straight right dominant (maybe ).

I will go see if I can look at your backhand in the ttw member video thread. I might see what you are talking about with right side power all the way through.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

My guess is we all send our shoulders/arm triangle on their forward swing from our core and right side power. In my swing, that core isn't still dragging/powering at contact. It didn't on the 1hbh either. The core and right shoulder (back I assume) fired at forward swing, but then right arm traveled on it's own to contact. The 2hbh seems similar, but with left arm hand dominant finish into conatact. I hit bent/straight, so by contact my right arm is t-rex so and left arm straight.

It's easy to not understand what's going on in a 2hbh because there is two of everything. Just now shadowing swinging I am not quite as sure left arm/hand is totally controlling low to high swing plane of the hand. It feels more like a swing of the arm triangle ... with left hand being active to get racquet head up at contact.

I think the reason to be this detailed with the 2hbh is because there appears to be big variations in arm dominance. I wouldn't think Venus bent/bent huge left dominant would benifit from the exact same drills as Agassi straight/straight right dominant (maybe ).

I will go see if I can look at your backhand in the ttw member video thread. I might see what you are talking about with right side power all the way through.

I think my bh has changed some.
also the right side starts the swing, but at some point the left is pushing through contact, but it’s more riding the momentum (lag and snap) started by the right arm

 

[ByeByePoly]

Yeah and I question your intent to produce similar swingpath, especially the follow-through part. I suggest that you look for some natural swing based on takeback/torso preparation relevant to 2hbh. Moreover, this might make your actual 2hbh swingpath and followthrough evolve, huh?

"Yeah and I question your intent to produce similar swingpath, especially the follow-through part."

Well ... given you can't match it exactly is not a good reason to not come as close as you can. I think the main thing is just hit lhfh topspin like NYTA said. I don't think my left arm/hand needs much new training for a flat swing.

"I suggest that you look for some natural swing based on takeback/torso preparation relevant to 2hbh."

I did. I took my normal 2hbh backswing and closed/neutral stance and weight transferred to right leg. My drop became a one arm drop to same slot (tried), my left arm extended to straight from slot, hit same low to high swing plane, and followed through past right ear, tapped racquet on the back (sometimes ).

"Moreover, this might make your actual 2hbh swingpath and followthrough evolve, huh?"

Didn't understand this one ... explain more. FYI ... my 2hbh looking pretty good ... good topspin, and can call up topspin lob. I am doing this lhfh test with an open mind because NYTA and Jolly claimed it helps. Good references. At the end of the test, I might conclude I would be better off with only 2-handed drills trying to accomplish the same thing. But I have the time waiting to play matches ... and pretty curious at this point.

 

[ByeByePoly]

I think my bh has changed some.
also the right side starts the swing, but at some point the left is pushing through contact, but it’s more riding the momentum (lag and snap) started by the right arm

I agree with all of that ... except putting the "lag and snap thing to the side". This is what I keep saying (probably poorly) when I talk about arm triangle momentum... and then accelerate/boost with left arm/hand. You say "push" with left arm . .. riding the momentum. Exactly.

I think lag is an additional "boost/acceleration" , and the Nishikori rh drop is additional topspin. That reminds me of something I noticed on one of his flatter 2hbh I saw on video. I have always associated the rh lower than the hand with low to high swings. He hit what appeared to be a flat swing, but still had that low racquet head in the backswing that got to even with hands by contact. I guess the point is that it is part of his lag even on flat swings (angle did not show if topspin). When I watch a lot of players hit their 2hbh from the back view, it looks like a waggle (often right before hands go forward). You golfed ... so probably heard the term waggle.

 

[Dartagnan64]

Sadly I'm not near consistent enough to do this kind of drilling yet. I'm still at the "get the racket frame below the darn ball" stage of 2HBH's. If I do that, I hit a nice consistent topspin ball. If I don't it's a tragic punch with no control.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Sadly I'm not near consistent enough to do this kind of drilling yet. I'm still at the "get the racket frame below the darn ball" stage of 2HBH's. If I do that, I hit a nice consistent topspin ball. If I don't it's a tragic punch with no control.

You are too far north for topspin. (there is no topspin in Canada )

"Sadly I'm not near consistent enough to do this kind of drilling yet."

Isn't that why we do the drilling? I'm so confused.

 

[IowaGuy]

I am planning on committing some time to hitting left hand forehands to see if it helps my 2hbh. I have hit the 2hbh for 2+ years, and have just now started to hit lhfhs, so it should be easy to gauge any improvement. I thought it would be interesting to hear how others practice (or have practiced) the lhfhs.

Post anything related ... how you practice with lhfh, for a specific goal like topspin/touch, did it help, any good videos on the subject, etc.

My plan is to track my practice in one post (initial post and just keep editing for additions)

If practicing so much on LHFH, why not just eventually switch to it and hit two forehands - one on each side?

If you had a 5-year-old kid that you wanted to start into tennis, would you teach him a 2HBH, or just to hit a FH with each hand?

I play lefty ping-pong almost as well as right-handed, since I have spent so many years playing lefty against lesser opponents (to challenge myself)...

 

[J011yroger]

If practicing so much on LHFH, why not just eventually switch to it and hit two forehands - one on each side?

If you had a 5-year-old kid that you wanted to start into tennis, would you teach him a 2HBH, or just to hit a FH with each hand?

I play lefty ping-pong almost as well as right-handed, since I have spent so many years playing lefty against lesser opponents (to challenge myself)...

Backhands have a purpose.

J

 

[IowaGuy]

Backhands have a purpose.

J

So, if Nadal had also learned a righty FH (he is mostly right handed, after all), he would be better off with a 2HBH?

 

[J011yroger]

So, if Nadal had also learned a righty FH (he is mostly right handed, after all), he would be better off with a 2HBH?

Yes.

J

 

[Dartagnan64]

You are too far north for topspin.

"Sadly I'm not near consistent enough to do this kind of drilling yet."

Isn't that why we do the drilling? I'm so confused.

Well there is nailing the basics of the stroke and then working on the little details of the stroke. When you still haven't perfected getting the footwork, turn, and racket takeback right, it's a bit early to work on the hand dominance. Baby steps.

It's like working on your racket drop in serve before you've learned to toss the ball.

Every swing requires proper setup to be performed correctly. I'm still working on getting that preparation phase ingrained properly.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Well there is nailing the basics of the stroke and then working on the little details of the stroke. When you still haven't perfected getting the footwork, turn, and racket takeback right, it's a bit early to work on the hand dominance. Baby steps.

It's like working on your racket drop in serve before you've learned to toss the ball.

Every swing requires proper setup to be performed correctly. I'm still working on getting that preparation phase ingrained properly.

Let's see the video ... I'm sure we can help.

@J011yroger will tell you my feet never are in place on my 2hbh ... every time I make contact a little miracle happens.

All kidding aside ... I think the weight transfer 2hbh is all about rhythm. I have never taught anyone to hit it other than myself, but I honestly could see initial drills without a racquet or tennis balls ... just learning the dance steps and relaxed shoulder throw. No Jolly ... no medicine ball ... needs to be more fun at first.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Backhands have a purpose.

J

Make our FHs look good ... DUH!!!

 

[Bender]

So is the goal to train your LH to have a more dominant role in a 2HBH?

For all the flak he gives me, @ByeByePoly wants my backhand, that's what this is.

 

[Dragy]

Didn't understand this one ... explain more. FYI ... my 2hbh looking pretty good ... good topspin, and can call up topspin lob. I am doing this lhfh test with an open mind because NYTA and Jolly claimed it helps. Good references. At the end of the test, I might conclude I would be better off with only 2-handed drills trying to accomplish the same thing. But I have the time waiting to play matches ... and pretty curious at this point.

Well, the issue with my ideas in your thread is I’m a great theorist while you actually hit a 2hbh) but still I’ll give another vague proclamation: Roger hit great forehands in his early years on tour. Still, his FH evolved. So I don’t say your shot needs correction. Just that working on a left-hand component of the stroke might be beneficial, and change the form here and there.

 

[ByeByePoly]

For all the flak he gives me, @ByeByePoly wants my backhand, that's what this is.

I want to be young and athletic like you again. Haven't seen the Bender strokes yet ... but if I get "young" with the deal, I will take it. I would have many years left to fix it.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Well there is nailing the basics of the stroke and then working on the little details of the stroke. When you still haven't perfected getting the footwork, turn, and racket takeback right, it's a bit early to work on the hand dominance. Baby steps.

It's like working on your racket drop in serve before you've learned to toss the ball.

Every swing requires proper setup to be performed correctly. I'm still working on getting that preparation phase ingrained properly.

I was thinking about your comment, and I think there are a couple of things directly related to stroke drills (2hbh in this case):

1) what is the basic 2hbh we should shoot for?
2) how soon should we introduce variety past "basic" in the learning curve (NYTA comment to follow)
3) what drills are good at the beginning, what drills are good even after you have a decent stroke, and what drills are good at both stages?

I defined the basic 2hbh for me as:
- neutral/closed stance
- weight transfer to right leg/foot
- backswing around Djokovic height (you should pick your preference early ... you have control even at the start where your backswing set position is)
- I would have a drop, preferred the feel and timing of that over going down directly to slot
- low to high swing, racquet head a little below hands at slot (avoided big rh drop on purpose for a long time), bent/straight (straight/straight failed in early days), racquet past right ear and tap me on the back in follow through.

Each of us would define the first "basic" 2hbh goal differently. You might come up with something more simple than my initial "basic" ... and then progress to your final goal. I defined it this way because I wasn't interested in a 2hbh without topspin, so I just bit the bullet early.

There is also the question of when to introduce variety beyond your basic 2hbh. I was ball machine only (not even close to match ready after), thousands of "basic" repetitions (no open stances unless I did it without knowing I did), no ros, all baseline in the strike zone, yada yada yada. If I can find @nytennisaddict post/suggestion to me about introducing more variety earlier in the learning curve, I will post it. That is the post where NYTA won me over forever as a source for logical advice on improving strokes. Didn't stop me from giving him cr@p about mini tennis ... and it will NEVER . But my point is we all learn different ... and I introduced more variety to the "basic" later in the curve. I blew the best learning curve by not using the 2hbh exclusively in my 2017 singles matches. I reverted back to my 1hbh slice because I wanted to win my lame matches with friends.

So this is why my lh fh drills is defined as a very narrow test of the theory lh fhs can help the 2hbh. I no full well all ball machine drills are "narrow" by definition. I think hitting lh fhs at the start of learning a 2hbh is in the category of "why the heck not". A good coach/instructor has a bunch of tools in the bag, some will work for some players and not others ... use what works. It seems like a different question when we ask "will a lh fh drill help someone's 2hbh that is way past the intitial learning curve". I am using myself as an initial narrow test of that question. As said in another thread, the pros use this drill and we can all assume they are past their initial learning curve. They play for a lot of $, probably some superfluous drills but you would expect most have been weeded out.

This got longer than I intended (as usual ), but I was trying to agree with your 1) define basic 2hbh and nail it down 2) add to that solid foundation after. The trick is ALWAYS defining that intial "basic".

 

[ByeByePoly]

Opinion ... others chime in.

The lh fh drill is not an attempt to be more active with hands at contact. A quality 2hbh involves the natural rolling (snapping) of the top hand over the bottom hand, but this is not the same as active hands at contact. Djokovic's 2hbh slow motion from the side is a great one to watch for the stability at contact.

I think the point of the lh fh drill has to be the left arm/hand coordination from the slot and from lag to square at contact. We aren't doing these lh fhs to be "handsy" at contact. Relaxed arms/wrist yes, actively handsy ... no.

I think this is pretty obvious, but I could see a beginner reading this thread and thinking we are trying create topspin with active left hand manipulation at contact.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

I agree with all of that ... except putting the "lag and snap thing to the side". This is what I keep saying (probably poorly) when I talk about arm triangle momentum... and then accelerate/boost with left arm/hand. You say "push" with left arm . .. riding the momentum. Exactly.

I think lag is an additional "boost/acceleration" , and the Nishikori rh drop is additional topspin. That reminds me of something I noticed on one of his flatter 2hbh I saw on video. I have always associated the rh lower than the hand with low to high swings. He hit what appeared to be a flat swing, but still had that low racquet head in the backswing that got to even with hands by contact. I guess the point is that it is part of his lag even on flat swings (angle did not show if topspin). When I watch a lot of players hit their 2hbh from the back view, it looks like a waggle (often right before hands go forward). You golfed ... so probably heard the term waggle.

waggle?
that typically refes to the thing you do just before you hit a golf ball
the movement you see on the 2hbh, just as they starting their forward motion, is the lag and snap (ie. where they drop their racquethead below the level of their hands)

 

[ByeByePoly]

waggle?
that typically refes to the thing you do just before you hit a golf ball
the movement you see on the 2hbh, just as they starting their forward motion, is the lag and snap (ie. where they drop their racquethead below the level of their hands)

I will try and find a video of the 2hbh from behind that shows what I'm talking about. It's not just the rh below the hands, but the quick rh past the line of the arms (lag). It looks like a quick waggle ... not saying it's like golf.

I'm searching for your post where you gave me great advice on 2hbh progressions (drills) to get me out of my one dimension ball machine practice. Haven't found it yet, but sure found a lot of NYTA comments on the lh fh drills. Forget this thread ... just pull up old NYTA posts.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Well there is nailing the basics of the stroke and then working on the little details of the stroke. When you still haven't perfected getting the footwork, turn, and racket takeback right, it's a bit early to work on the hand dominance. Baby steps.

It's like working on your racket drop in serve before you've learned to toss the ball.

Every swing requires proper setup to be performed correctly. I'm still working on getting that preparation phase ingrained properly.

Found @nytennisaddict great post on introducing 2hbh progressions. LOL ... he still thought I would be a good student back then. Now I just argue.

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/diy-vs-hiring-a-coach.571712/page-2#post-10628675

 

[ByeByePoly]

waggle?
that typically refes to the thing you do just before you hit a golf ball
the movement you see on the 2hbh, just as they starting their forward motion, is the lag and snap (ie. where they drop their racquethead below the level of their hands)

Yeah ... just talking about how the quick lag (rh drop and rh going back behind forearm line) ... lag and snap ... has always looked like a quick waggle to me. Even more so from behind, but Ferrer is a good example in this slow motion video. Quick waggle and snap. Note: I see Ferrer set the lag in this video in that first 2hbh right before hands move forward. But watch Murray, or most for that matter ... the hands will move forward and then the lag gets set. I have decided it must not matter on the exact timing of the lag "when" ... just get there. The "how late of release of the lag" is where the $ is made, imo. For me, I have had better luck feeling like the momentum of the initial backswing carries into a set lag/waggle right before my hands move forward more like Ferrer. I have had less luck trying to introduce the lag like a Murray or Djokovic. I also have accepted my release of any lag will not match the pros, and shouldn't if I want a repeatable rec 2hbh.

I am not shooting for this late of release

 

[Deleted member 23235]

Yeah ... just talking about how the quick lag (rh drop and rh going back behind forearm line) ... lag and snap ... has always looked like a quick waggle to me. Even more so from behind, but Ferrer is a good example in this slow motion video. Quick waggle and snap. Note: I see Ferrer set the lag in this video in that first 2hbh right before hands move forward. But watch Murray, or most for that matter ... the hands will move forward and then the lag gets set. I have decided it must not matter on the exact timing of the lag "when" ... just get there. The "how late of release of the lag" is where the $ is made, imo. For me, I have had better luck feeling like the momentum of the initial backswing carries into a set lag/waggle right before my hands move forward more like Ferrer. I have had less luck trying to introduce the lag like a Murray or Djokovic. I also have accepted my release of any lag will not match the pros, and shouldn't if I want a repeatable rec 2hbh.

I am not shooting for this late of release

i agree the timing of this might too complicated for alot of folks...

for a while i emulated hewitts bh... flatter, simpler, less "waggle"

simon, imo has the right amount of "waggle" (i'm lol'ing at the incorrect use of this term)... for rec folks to emulate... pretty simple, more linear and less whippy, but probably doesn't need quite as many reps to get good

 

[ByeByePoly]

i agree the timing of this might too complicated for alot of folks...

for a while i emulated hewitts bh... flatter, simpler, less "waggle"

simon, imo has the right amount of "waggle" (i'm lol'ing at the incorrect use of this term)... for rec folks to emulate... pretty simple, more linear and less whippy, but probably doesn't need quite as many reps to get good

I don't think you could find a more effortless nonchalant looking 2hbh than Simon.

I'm glad you found Hewitt as an example of less lag. I had looked for examples before, starting with Chang, but video quality is always cr@p. You had called some 2hbhs "shovel strokes" before, did you mean lack of lag?

I always check the players lag from the behind camera angle. I could not find a good one for Hewitt, but here is Hewitt, Simon and Zverev. I think of Zverev as less rh drop and lag, but I guess not considering the following pic.

 

[Dan R]

I have tried this and did not find it helpful. From my experience the 2hb is not a left handed forehand. It's a two handed shot, and to be precise I think it has a right hand dominated phase and a left hand dominant phase.

Assuming you are right handed, and you don't hit with both arms straight (like Agassi) or with both arms bent (like Serena and many other WTA players), then as long as the right arm is on top and is straight it dominates. As soon as the left arm rotates to the top and straightens then it dominates. I don't think a left hand forehand simulates this very well.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

I don't think you could find a more effortless nonchalant looking 2hbh than Simon.

I'm glad you found Hewitt as an example of less lag. I had looked for examples before, starting with Chang, but video quality is always cr@p. You had called some 2hbhs "shovel strokes" before, did you mean lack of lag?

I always check the players lag from the behind camera angle. I could not find a good one for Hewitt, but here is Hewitt, Simon and Zverev. I think of Zverev as less rh drop and lag, but I guess not considering the following pic.

i think they all drop, they are pros after all... but some drops are more extreme than others... and the timing of some lags are more extreme (ie. very whippy) than others (the simpler motions more closely follow the core turn).
the whippy ones, are more disjointed, seems there a clear disconnect from when the hip fires, and when the racquet tip follows (an extreme case might be the tip going backwards, while the hips are gong forwards - but i haven't actually found a case like that)

one thing i don't like about hewitt's bh, is he goes from an open to close faced position, which under pressure, i found broke down alot for me.

regarding "shovel strokes" - yeah, lack of lag... the stroke looks exactly like you would picture if you're shoveling snow in a 2hbh grip, and throw it behind you.... very stiff. i think this is a very consistent way to hit a 2hbh, simple, but less versatile (ie. due to loss of spin potential)

 

[ByeByePoly]

i think they all drop, they are pros after all... but some drops are more extreme than others... and the timing of some lags are more extreme (ie. very whippy) than others (the simpler motions more closely follow the core turn).
the whippy ones, are more disjointed, seems there a clear disconnect from when the hip fires, and when the racquet tip follows (an extreme case might be the tip going backwards, while the hips are gong forwards - but i haven't actually found a case like that)

one thing i don't like about hewitt's bh, is he goes from an open to close faced position, which under pressure, i found broke down alot for me.

regarding "shovel strokes" - yeah, lack of lag... the stroke looks exactly like you would picture if you're shoveling snow in a 2hbh grip, and throw it behind you.... very stiff. i think this is a very consistent way to hit a 2hbh, simple, but less versatile (ie. due to loss of spin potential)

LOL ... thanks again. Jolly and TenFan critiqued my open face in the backswing in my 2hbh. I pulled out Chris Evert as my evidence it doesn't matter. Hewitt will be even better. Of course, I probably go from "way open" to maybe "slightly open at contact". I am always trying to hit all my FHs and BHs (other than slice and drop shot) with a square racquet face. Whether I get there or not ... who knows.

 

[ByeByePoly]

I have tried this and did not find it helpful. From my experience the 2hb is not a left handed forehand. It's a two handed shot, and to be precise I think it has a right hand dominated phase and a left hand dominant phase.

Assuming you are right handed, and you don't hit with both arms straight (like Agassi) or with both arms bent (like Serena and many other WTA players), then as long as the right arm is on top and is straight it dominates. As soon as the left arm rotates to the top and straightens then it dominates. I don't think a left hand forehand simulates this very well.

Yes, I said something similar about the two phases. I also think Agassi also had two phases with his straight/straight ... and probably Venus with that bent/bent but I can't watch it long enough for analysis. I would like her Wimbledon wins to rub off on me, but I don't want anywhere near that bent/bent thing.

I hit bent/straight ... and would elaborate the phases like this for me:

1) the start of the swing is clearly right dominant
2) by contact, left dominant but not at the level of right dominant at the start of the swing. I like how NYTA said it ... the left push is riding the momentum already generated from that right dominant pull. I still call this left dominant ... but it's a percentage of acceleration being carried into contact by both arms/hands. Said another way ... the start of the swing might be 90/10 right dom ... at contact it might only be a 10% (no way to measure that) left arm/hand adder to the momentum carrying into contact.
3) at least on my 2hbh, the left kicks in earlier than when the left arm/hand goes on top. It starts kicking in in the forward swing at the point the racquet starts swing around the butt cap (in fact, it's what makes the racquet swing around the butt cap ... I would not get square by contact from the lag without the left arm/hand push).

Something like that ... clear as mud. I gave my examples in the other thread why I do not think the 2hbh is a lhfh. IMO, that is definitely an argument that lh fhs aren't likely to offer benefit ... too different ... just do 2hbh drills for the same goals. The other side of the argument is good players, including pros and professional coaches believing it helps. I'm testing this for myself ... I have the time.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

Yes, I said something similar about the two phases. I also think Agassi also had two phases with his straight/straight ... and probably Venus with that bent/bent but I can't watch it long enough for analysis. I would like her Wimbledon wins to rub off on me, but I don't want anywhere near that bent/bent thing.

I hit bent/straight ... and would elaborate the phases like this for me:

1) the start of the swing is clearly right dominant
2) by contact, left dominant but not at the level of right dominant at the start of the swing. I like how NYTA said it ... the left push is riding the momentum already generated from that right dominant pull. I still call this left dominant ... but it's a percentage of acceleration being carried into contact by both arms/hands. Said another way ... the start of the swing might be 90/10 right dom ... at contact it might only be a 10% (no way to measure that) left arm/hand adder to the momentum carrying into contact.
3) at least on my 2hbh, the left kicks in earlier than when the left arm/hand goes on top. It starts kicking in in the forward swing at the point the racquet starts swing around the butt cap (in fact, it's what makes the racquet swing around the butt cap ... I would not get square by contact from the lag without the left arm/hand push).

Something like that ... clear as mud. I gave my examples in the other thread why I do not think the 2hbh is a lhfh. IMO, that is definitely an argument that lh fhs aren't likely to offer benefit ... too different ... just do 2hbh drills for the same goals. The other side of the argument is good players, including pros and professional coaches believing it helps. I'm testing this for myself ... I have the time.

if you look at venus' 2hbh, she takes it back, bent/bent, but at the start of the forward motion, she straightens her right arm, indicating she's at least letting the right arm power the start of the stroke (by virtue of it being dragged by the leading shoulder).... but does seem like the left arm plays a more dominant role earlier in the stroke.

 

[ByeByePoly]

if you look at venus' 2hbh, she takes it back, bent/bent, but at the start of the forward motion, she straightens her right arm, indicating she's at least letting the right arm power the start of the stroke (by virtue of it being dragged by the leading shoulder).... but does seem like the left arm plays a more dominant role earlier in the stroke.

"if you look at venus' 2hbh"

I can't.

 

[J011yroger]

"if you look at venus' 2hbh"

I can't.

It looks like mine.

*Throws up in mouth*

J

 

[ByeByePoly]

It looks like mine.

*Throws up in mouth*

J

No ... at no time watching your 2hbh do I think this:

@00:16

 

[J011yroger]

No ... at no time watching your 2hbh do I think this:

@00:16

8 months apart, top one is from last fall bottom is last month. Look any different?

J

 

[Deleted member 23235]

8 months apart, top one is from last fall bottom is last month. Look any different?

J

tough for me to tell, but the bottom one seems like you drop your racquet head lower than than in the top vid... but i really only saw 1-2 bh in each of the vids.
having you been working on getting more topspin?

 

[J011yroger]

tough for me to tell, but the bottom one seems like you drop your racquet head lower than than in the top vid... but i really only saw 1-2 bh in each of the vids.
having you been working on getting more topspin?

No, I'm working on getting more extension and driving the ball harder and flatter, but I keep getting more topspin.

It's not easy being Jolly.

J

 

[Deleted member 23235]

No, I'm working on getting more extension and driving the ball harder and flatter, but I keep getting more topspin.

It's not easy being Jolly.

J

interesting, i wonder if you're subconsciously trying to get top, to counter then fact that you're hitting harder,... to keep the ball in.

 

[Dan R]

Yes, I said something similar about the two phases. I also think Agassi also had two phases with his straight/straight ... and probably Venus with that bent/bent but I can't watch it long enough for analysis. I would like her Wimbledon wins to rub off on me, but I don't want anywhere near that bent/bent thing.

I hit bent/straight ... and would elaborate the phases like this for me:

1) the start of the swing is clearly right dominant
2) by contact, left dominant but not at the level of right dominant at the start of the swing. I like how NYTA said it ... the left push is riding the momentum already generated from that right dominant pull. I still call this left dominant ... but it's a percentage of acceleration being carried into contact by both arms/hands. Said another way ... the start of the swing might be 90/10 right dom ... at contact it might only be a 10% (no way to measure that) left arm/hand adder to the momentum carrying into contact.
3) at least on my 2hbh, the left kicks in earlier than when the left arm/hand goes on top. It starts kicking in in the forward swing at the point the racquet starts swing around the butt cap (in fact, it's what makes the racquet swing around the butt cap ... I would not get square by contact from the lag without the left arm/hand push).

Something like that ... clear as mud. I gave my examples in the other thread why I do not think the 2hbh is a lhfh. IMO, that is definitely an argument that lh fhs aren't likely to offer benefit ... too different ... just do 2hbh drills for the same goals. The other side of the argument is good players, including pros and professional coaches believing it helps. I'm testing this for myself ... I have the time.

I agree with what you are saying, and in real time all this happens so quickly that I think it really just feel like a two handed swing mostly.

 

[ByeByePoly]

No, I'm working on getting more extension and driving the ball harder and flatter, but I keep getting more topspin.

It's not easy being Jolly.

J

I was going to say more extension, but actually you looked pretty good even in the first video. LOL ... you said harder and flatter, because I was going to compliment your series of 2hbhs @01:18. Nice control to go along with that power.

I know I am trying to reach more toward net in my follow through ... in an effort to have better extension. That is just another way of saying delaying how fast my left arm (elbow) breaks right after contact. I still find the term extension ... and goal a little confusing. Someone here gave a simple definition/goal of thinking as it as hitting the three balls online. I mean, after contact it's gone ... so we must be able to hold the line to contact a fraction longer with some swings that give that solid feeling. I know it feels better to me when I reach for the net ... but maybe it's just a trick that gets me concentrate that little bit more and I get cleaner hits. ??? I have started to think how we deliver the arm from the shoulder is the more important thing ... and that back camera angle is perfect.

This is what I mean ... your core and shoulder uncoiling has finished by pic #1, and you deliver the arms from there by holding your torso/shoulder position through extension. This is what I see consistent on pro FHs and BHs ... it's a clear momentum handoff to the arm/s from the shoulder joint. I pass this test pretty good on my 2hbh (at least video from last year, not videoing this year so far) ... but not so much on my FH.