3rd best female tennis player in history

3rd best female tennis player in history


  • Total voters
    31
Since it is pretty much accepted by all reasonable people that Graf and Serena are the 2 best female tennis players in history, in either order, who is the 3rd best female tennis player in history. The main candidates are probably Lenglen, Wills, Court, Evert, and Navratilova but I chose to include as many possible options.
 

CEvertFan

Hall of Fame
Graf
Navratilova
Evert
Serena

In that order.


Nah, Court won the calendar Grand Slam in 1970 - that puts her 4th even considering almost half of her 24 majors were at the weak Aussie Open.


I have no problem putting Serena 5th right now though...
 

Fiji

Legend
Nah, Court won the calendar Grand Slam in 1970 - that puts her 4th even considering almost half of her 24 majors were at the weak Aussie Open.


I have no problem putting Serena 5th right now though...

Just 2 surfaces back then.

It's iffy between Serena and Court and who deserves the fourth place.
 

buscemi

Hall of Fame
Since it is pretty much accepted by all reasonable people that Graf and Serena are the 2 best female tennis players in history, in either order, who is the 3rd best female tennis player in history. The main candidates are probably Lenglen, Wills, Court, Evert, and Navratilova but I chose to include as many possible options.

Seles from '92 U.S. Open-stabbing > any level that Graf achieved during her career. For obvious reasons, her greatness is the toughest of any player in history to evaluate.
 
Navratilova or Court. Can't decide. Both were all time great singles players AND doubles players, maybe the two best doubles players ever on the women's side.
 

ScottleeSV

Hall of Fame
Since it is pretty much accepted by all reasonable people that Graf and Serena are the 2 best female tennis players in history, in either order, who is the 3rd best female tennis player in history. The main candidates are probably Lenglen, Wills, Court, Evert, and Navratilova but I chose to include as many possible options.

This is your main problem right here, particularly when you use the word 'reasonable'.
 

ibbi

G.O.A.T.
Whichever one out of Evert and Navratilova I wouldn't put second, and I'm tempted to put Chris second, so I guess Martina!
 

1477aces

Hall of Fame
Um. No. Serena is not second behind graf, she has yet to pass navratlilova or Evert (by quite a large margin). Evert is third best all time. Court is considered pre-open era; difficult to gauge.
 

NLBwell

Legend
Then there's always the cases for Lenglen (for dominance and longevity) and Connolly (for dominance over a short career) as best ever.
 

LDVTennis

Professional
Seles from '92 U.S. Open-stabbing > any level that Graf achieved during her career. For obvious reasons, her greatness is the toughest of any player in history to evaluate.

... because NOT WINNING Wimbledon (at your peak) makes you better than anyone who ever played or will play the game. LOL.
 

buscemi

Hall of Fame
... because NOT WINNING Wimbledon (at your peak) makes you better than anyone who ever played or will play the game. LOL.

Look again at the period that I highlighted. It does not include a Wimbledon. Seles never got to play in Wimbledon '93 because of the stabbing. But her serve was clearly better at the '92 U.S. Open and '93 Australian Open than it was at Wimbledon '92.
 
Look again at the period that I highlighted. It does not include a Wimbledon. Seles never got to play in Wimbledon '93 because of the stabbing. But her serve was clearly better at the '92 U.S. Open and '93 Australian Open than it was at Wimbledon '92.

You didnt answer my question. Are your rankings based on your apparent belief of superiority of Seles over Graf: 1. Serena, 2. Seles, 3. Graf, or do you have Navratilova somewhere there too.
 

buscemi

Hall of Fame
You didnt answer my question. Are your rankings based on your apparent belief of superiority of Seles over Graf: 1. Serena, 2. Seles, 3. Graf, or do you have Navratilova somewhere there too.

Tough one, but I would probably say:

1. Navratilova
2. Evert
3. Seles
4. Graf

NR Serena*

*I'm going to wait until Serena retires to evaluate the totality of her career.
 
Tough one, but I would probably say:

1. Navratilova
2. Evert
3. Seles
4. Graf

NR Serena*

*I'm going to wait until Serena retires to evaluate the totality of her career.

Interesting you would have Evert that high with your heavy emphasis on peak level play as that is not her strength. Peak level play she would probably only be like 10th or 11th best all time, although many other aspects of her career are outstanding and even the best ever.
 

buscemi

Hall of Fame
Interesting you would have Evert that high with your heavy emphasis on peak level play as that is not her strength. Peak level play she would probably only be like 10th or 11th best all time, although many other aspects of her career are outstanding and even the best ever.

I would strongly disagree with this comment on Evert's peak. I would consider her peak to be from Wimbledon 1981-French Open 1983. During this stretch, she:

-won Wimbledon '81 without dropping a set, beating Mandlikova, 6-2, 6-2 in the final;

-lost to Navratilova in a 7-5, 4-6, 6-4 squeaker at the '81 U.S. Open;

-lost another squeaker to Navratilova, 6-7, 6-4, 7-5 in the '81 Australian Open (grass) final;

-lost to Jaeger in the '82 French Open semifinals (the one "bad" loss in this stretch);

-lost to Navratilova, 6-1, 3-6, 6-2 in the '82 Wimbledon final;

-won U.S. Open '82, beating Mandlikova, 6-3, 6-1 in the final;

-won Australian Open '82 (grass), beating Navratilova, 6-3, 2-6, 6-3 in the final; and

-won the '82 French Open.

So, that's 4/8 Majors won during this period, with 3 of those losses coming in three setters against Navratilova, who wasn't yet at her absolute peak but wasn't too far from it. It includes a Wimbledon win without dropping a set and a grass court Major title with a win over Navratilova in the finals. It also includes a rock solid U.S. Open win on DecoTurf and a clay court crown at the French (not that Evert's peak level on clay is in question).

Obviously, a huge part of Evert's resume is her consistency, but that's not a bad peak at all, especially if you consider Navratilova the GOAT.
 

Steffi-forever

Hall of Fame
I would strongly disagree with this comment on Evert's peak. I would consider her peak to be from Wimbledon 1981-French Open 1983. During this stretch, she:

-won Wimbledon '81 without dropping a set, beating Mandlikova, 6-2, 6-2 in the final;

-lost to Navratilova in a 7-5, 4-6, 6-4 squeaker at the '81 U.S. Open;

-lost another squeaker to Navratilova, 6-7, 6-4, 7-5 in the '81 Australian Open (grass) final;

-lost to Jaeger in the '82 French Open semifinals (the one "bad" loss in this stretch);

-lost to Navratilova, 6-1, 3-6, 6-2 in the '82 Wimbledon final;

-won U.S. Open '82, beating Mandlikova, 6-3, 6-1 in the final;

-won Australian Open '82 (grass), beating Navratilova, 6-3, 2-6, 6-3 in the final; and

-won the '82 French Open.

So, that's 4/8 Majors won during this period, with 3 of those losses coming in three setters against Navratilova, who wasn't yet at her absolute peak but wasn't too far from it. It includes a Wimbledon win without dropping a set and a grass court Major title with a win over Navratilova in the finals. It also includes a rock solid U.S. Open win on DecoTurf and a clay court crown at the French (not that Evert's peak level on clay is in question).

Obviously, a huge part of Evert's resume is her consistency, but that's not a bad peak at all, especially if you consider Navratilova the GOAT.

And Navratilova at her absolute peak lost to Horvath in the fourth round at FO '83 and to the Sukova in the SF at AO '84. Both of them slamless :/. Nobody's perfect.
 
I would strongly disagree with this comment on Evert's peak. I would consider her peak to be from Wimbledon 1981-French Open 1983. During this stretch, she:

-won Wimbledon '81 without dropping a set, beating Mandlikova, 6-2, 6-2 in the final;

-lost to Navratilova in a 7-5, 4-6, 6-4 squeaker at the '81 U.S. Open;

-lost another squeaker to Navratilova, 6-7, 6-4, 7-5 in the '81 Australian Open (grass) final;

-lost to Jaeger in the '82 French Open semifinals (the one "bad" loss in this stretch);

-lost to Navratilova, 6-1, 3-6, 6-2 in the '82 Wimbledon final;

-won U.S. Open '82, beating Mandlikova, 6-3, 6-1 in the final;

-won Australian Open '82 (grass), beating Navratilova, 6-3, 2-6, 6-3 in the final; and

-won the '82 French Open.

So, that's 4/8 Majors won during this period, with 3 of those losses coming in three setters against Navratilova, who wasn't yet at her absolute peak but wasn't too far from it. It includes a Wimbledon win without dropping a set and a grass court Major title with a win over Navratilova in the finals. It also includes a rock solid U.S. Open win on DecoTurf and a clay court crown at the French (not that Evert's peak level on clay is in question).

Obviously, a huge part of Evert's resume is her consistency, but that's not a bad peak at all, especially if you consider Navratilova the GOAT.

Her peak level play wasnt bad but it was far from the best. Graf, Seles, Serena, Navratilova, Connolly, Lenglen, Wills, all definitely had higher peak level of play. Even Venus Williams on her preferred surfaces did. She also never came close to what those others did in slam dominance even looking only at the slams she played. Lenglen won 12 of 13 slams she played, Wills won 19 of her last 20 slams, Graf 8 of 9, Seles 6 of 7 she played, Serena 5 of 6, Navratilova 6 in a row. Everts best ever streak was 6 of 9 or something like that. Her best ever years she still lost about 5 matches, vs some of these others who only lost 2.

She is vurnerable to tough opponents. I dont think any other GOAT contender besides her would have lost 13 matches in a row to Navratilova at her peak while still in their own prime besides her, no matter how great Martina was. Against Austin she is 4-9 vs 16-18 year old Austin before her back problems ended her as a contender, and soon her career. Against Graf she lost 8 in a row once Graf matured, yes she was old, but we have all seen what an old Court, Navratilova, and Serena can do. So she is very good at mantaining a very high level over many years, and very consistently each event, but her peak does not approach many other greats.
 

buscemi

Hall of Fame
Her peak level play wasnt bad but it was far from the best. Graf, Seles, Serena, Navratilova, Connolly, Lenglen, Wills, all definitely had higher peak level of play. Even Venus Williams on her preferred surfaces did. She also never came close to what those others did in slam dominance even looking only at the slams she played. Lenglen won 12 of 13 slams she played, Wills won 19 of her last 20 slams, Graf 8 of 9, Seles 6 of 7 she played, Serena 5 of 6, Navratilova 6 in a row. Everts best ever streak was 6 of 9 or something like that. Her best ever years she still lost about 5 matches, vs some of these others who only lost 2.

She is vurnerable to tough opponents. I dont think any other GOAT contender besides her would have lost 13 matches in a row to Navratilova at her peak while still in their own prime besides her, no matter how great Martina was. Against Austin she is 4-9 vs 16-18 year old Austin before her back problems ended her as a contender, and soon her career. Against Graf she lost 8 in a row once Graf matured, yes she was old, but we have all seen what an old Court, Navratilova, and Serena can do. So she is very good at mantaining a very high level over many years, and very consistently each event, but her peak does not approach many other greats.

1. It's tough to compare Major stretches considering that Evert didn't play the French Open from 1976-1978 and the Australian Open from 1975-1980. In particular, that French Open stretch is significant, considering that it fell in the middle of her 125 match winning streak on clay.

2. Let's talk peak on every surface. I would put Evert's peak on clay up against any other player's peak on any other surface. 125 wins in a row speaks for itself.

As noted, Evert's peak on grass was from 1981-1982, when she won Wimbledon without dropping a set and won the Australian Open, beating Navratilova in the final. How impressive was that win over Martina? From Sydney '81-Sydney '84, Navratilova was 72-2 on grass. Those 2 losses were to Evert in Sydney '81 (6-4, 2-6, 6-1) and Evert at Australian Open '82 (as noted). That's a pretty high peak level on grass, which also includes a win at Wimbledon without dropping a set.

As for hard courts, look at the summer of 1982. Evert won 28 hard court matches in a row, including the U.S. Open. 9 of the 14 sets she won at the U.S. Open were 6-1 or 6-0. Again, very nice peak.
 
1. It's tough to compare Major stretches considering that Evert didn't play the French Open from 1976-1978 and the Australian Open from 1975-1980.

I already factored that in, as note I said of events she did play (just as I did for those others). Even in that instance she won 7 of the 12 majors she played at her peak from 75-79. If we looked at all the slams it would be only 7 of 20, and never winning more than 2 in a given year, but I didnt state it like that as that would be unfair, but even just considering which slam events she played her dominance was never as high as many of those others. Great but not nearly as dominant as those others.

Despite that she was playing only 2 majors a year most times in her prime as you correctly point out, she only once didnt suffer a defeat in a major, that was in 76 when she won both the French and Wimbledon. Imagine how many years Navratilova, Graf, Lenglen, Wills, Court, and Connolly would have won each major they played in a year if they were only playing 2, heck with the latter 3 we dont even have to speculate, and Graf won every major she played 3 different years in her career, and all 3 played atleast 3.

In particular, that French Open stretch is significant, considering that it fell in the middle of her 125 match winning streak on clay.

The U.S Open from 75-77 was on clay so basically replaced the French Opens she skipped from 76-78. U.S Open on hard courts or grass she would probably win atleast once, but in no way would she be unbeatable. Yes on clay she was probably the most dominant ever for awhile, but I am talking overall. I doubt anyone would say Everts peak is higher than any of Graf, Navratilova, Connolly, Lenglen, Wills, Serena, even those that would rate her above many of those, and to some people Court, Seles, Venus, King, Henin, would have higher peaks atleast as far as level of play as well. Of course there is much more to a players career and greatness than just peak level of play which is why most still rate Evert in the top 4.

Even on clay I would say as far as level of play Graf and Seles at their peak were higher, but both have much riskier games that are much harder to be at their best day in an day out on a slow surface like clay (despite that Seles in general was greater on slower courts than fast), hence why neither were as totally dominant overall as Evert. No fault of Evert but the clay field from 74-80 was bar none the worst in history too. Other than Goolagong I cant think of a single decent challenging opponent on the surface during those years. By contrast the clay field when Graf-Seles dominated was by far the strongest and deepest in history, making that level of dominance impossible to attain, and it would have been for Evert as well. I still do consider Evert the clay court GOAT without question however.
 
Last edited:

buscemi

Hall of Fame
I already factored that in, as note I said of events she did play (just as I did for those others). Even in that instance she won 7 of the 12 majors she played at her peak from 75-79. If we looked at all the slams it would be only 7 of 20, and never winning more than 2 in a given year, but I didnt state it like that as that would be unfair, but even just considering which slam events she played her dominance was never as high as many of those others. Great but not nearly as dominant as those others.

Despite that she was playing only 2 majors a year most times in her prime as you correctly point out, she only once didnt suffer a defeat in a major, that was in 76 when she won both the French and Wimbledon. Imagine how many years Navratilova, Graf, Lenglen, Wills, Court, and Connolly would have won each major they played in a year if they were only playing 2, heck with the latter 3 we dont even have to speculate, and Graf won every major she played 3 different years in her career, and all 3 played atleast 3.



The U.S Open from 75-77 was on clay so basically replaced the French Opens she skipped from 76-78. U.S Open on hard courts or grass she would probably win atleast once, but in no way would she be unbeatable. Yes on clay she was probably the most dominant ever for awhile, but I am talking overall. I doubt anyone would say Everts peak is higher than any of Graf, Navratilova, Connolly, Lenglen, Wills, Serena, even those that would rate her above many of those, and to some people Court, Seles, Venus, King, Henin, would have higher peaks atleast as far as level of play as well. Of course there is much more to a players career and greatness than just peak level of play which is why most still rate Evert in the top 4.

Even on clay I would say as far as level of play Graf and Seles at their peak were higher, but both have much riskier games that are much harder to be at their best day in an day out on a slow surface like clay (despite that Seles in general was greater on slower courts than fast), hence why neither were as totally dominant overall as Evert. No fault of Evert but the clay field from 74-80 was bar none the worst in history too. Other than Goolagong I cant think of a single decent challenging opponent on the surface during those years. By contrast the clay field when Graf-Seles dominated was by far the strongest and deepest in history, making that level of dominance impossible to attain, and it would have been for Evert as well. I still do consider Evert the clay court GOAT without question however.

Obviously, we can't project how things would have gone in an alternate universe, but imagine a world in which Evert played all 4 Majors every year like players nowadays do. It is easy to see her having a dominant stretch like the ones you listed. Consider this stretch:

1976 French Open: DNP: Would have been the heavy favorite
1976 Wimbledon: Won
1976 U.S. Open: Won
1977 Australian Open January: DNP: Would have been the heavy favorite
1977 French Open: DNP: Would have been the heavy favorite
1977 Wimbledon: Lost in the SF
1977 U.S. Open: Won
1977 Australian Open December: DNP: Evonne Goolagong won
1978 French Open: DNP: Would have been the heavy favorite

It's easy to see Evert winning 7/9 of those Majors if she had played them, and it could have been 8/9 if she could have gotten past Goolagong in Australia. Extending this a few Majors:

1978 Wimbledon: Lost in the F
1978 U.S. Open: Won
1978 Australian Open: DNP: Would have been the heavy favorite
1978 French Open: DNP: Would have been the heavy favorite

Again, it's easy to see Evert winning 10/13 or 11/13 of these Majors. Would she have won all of these? Maybe and maybe not. We won't know because it was a different tennis world back then.
 

LDVTennis

Professional
Look again at the period that I highlighted. It does not include a Wimbledon. Seles never got to play in Wimbledon '93 because of the stabbing. But her serve was clearly better at the '92 U.S. Open and '93 Australian Open than it was at Wimbledon '92.

How convenient!

So following the beating Seles took at the 92 Wimbledon, she (according to you) attained a level never seen before or for that matter since.

That level demonstrated itself in a US Open Final in which Monica used the moonball against Sanchez of all players and an AO final in which it took Seles three sets again on a slow surface to beat the woman (Graf) whose peak Seles had supposedly already surpassed.

:rolleyes:
 

buscemi

Hall of Fame
How convenient!

So following the beating Seles took at the 92 Wimbledon, she (according to you) attained a level never seen before or for that matter since.

That level demonstrated itself in a US Open Final in which Monica used the moonball against Sanchez of all players and an AO final in which it took Seles three sets again on a slow surface to beat the woman (Graf) whose peak Seles had supposedly already surpassed.

:rolleyes:

Look at Seles' serve at '92 Wimbledon vs. '92 U.S. Open and '93 Australian Open. It was much improved. Pairing that serve with her groundstrokes made her nearly unbeatable.
 
Obviously, we can't project how things would have gone in an alternate universe, but imagine a world in which Evert played all 4 Majors every year like players nowadays do. It is easy to see her having a dominant stretch like the ones you listed. Consider this stretch:

1976 French Open: DNP: Would have been the heavy favorite
1976 Wimbledon: Won
1976 U.S. Open: Won
1977 Australian Open January: DNP: Would have been the heavy favorite
1977 French Open: DNP: Would have been the heavy favorite
1977 Wimbledon: Lost in the SF
1977 U.S. Open: Won
1977 Australian Open December: DNP: Evonne Goolagong won
1978 French Open: DNP: Would have been the heavy favorite

It's easy to see Evert winning 7/9 of those Majors if she had played them, and it could have been 8/9 if she could have gotten past Goolagong in Australia. Extending this a few Majors:

1978 Wimbledon: Lost in the F
1978 U.S. Open: Won
1978 Australian Open: DNP: Would have been the heavy favorite
1978 French Open: DNP: Would have been the heavy favorite

Again, it's easy to see Evert winning 10/13 or 11/13 of these Majors. Would she have won all of these? Maybe and maybe not. We won't know because it was a different tennis world back then.


While on the surface your points have merit, you also have to factor in though the the Australian and French Open fields as they were were much weaker as well, for the reason their value was lower around then, the very reason Chris wasnt ever going to play them those years. Had they been higher value not only would Chris have played, but other top players would have all played, and this would have meant a stronger field, and more chance of her losing, especialy the Australian on grass (she won 2 Wimbledons out of 9 on grass from 72-80 when she barely played the Australian, so lets not pretend she would have just dominated a regular full playing field at the Australian).

For instance of the ones you mentioned had Goolagong, Wade, and everyone else played both 77 Australian Opens, winning 1 of 2 would be a reasonable estimate, despite that she lost Wimbledon that very year. 1978 Australian on grass she most likely loses to Martina. The 2 French Opens yes she likely wins. So that would still be 6 of 9 slams, which still doesnt compare to Graf winning 8 of 9, Martina winning 6 in a row, Court winning 8 of 9, Lenglen winning 12 of 13, Connolly winning 8 in a row, or even Serena at her peak winning 5 of 6 vs the deepest womens field ever (and since you introduced the what if discussion not only with Seles, but also with Chris, Serena would have been 8 of 9 had she been able to play the 2002 Australian Open, 2003 U.S Open, 2004 Australian Open, as I am sure you would concede she was the heavy favorite and likely winner of all 3 of those).

I am not putting Chris down, I am just pointing out it is a commonly accepted fact even by her supporting that in peak level play she is down the list of all time greats and GOAT candidates (still great by most top players standards of course). The strength of her career and why she ranks so high to many people was never peak level player, or greater dominance than other all time greats, but the amazing cummulation of her career through many years of incredibly high level, consistency, and longevity, and playing very well across all surfaces, even if only totally dominant on clay (although even on clay she took some brutal smackdowns from peak Martina, this despite that Chris is the clay GOAT, and Martina not even top 10 all time on the surface, which shows my point of peak play). In a fantasy event with all at their best NOBODY would pick Evert over Navratilova, Graf, or Serena for instance on anything but a clay court, and most would pick Court, Connolly, Lenglen, Wills, Seles at their best over her on those surfaces too (well minus Seles on grass of course), while others like Venus, King, Goolagong, Henin, Marble, would even be picked on their favorite surfaces over her if we are talking just peak level play and nothing else. So it would seem funny to me you rank Seles so high based purely on your view of her peak level play (which in her case is entirely subjective, and not stat based at all, as her best stats in her best years are far below those others I listed to, but given her unique situation I will give you a pass there although I totally disagree), then still view Evert so highly if you value peak level play that much. To each their own though. We obviously differ here so there is no point arguing further.
 
Top