4.0 man playing 7.0 mixed: Starting to feel bad...

[Idaho MEP]

A year ago I felt like a bit of an impostor at 4.0 -- I had assumed I would stay 3.5 after not winning much in my limited USTA experience. I joined my first league team last spring with a group of friends playing 7.0 mixed. I was a little stunned when my partners and I won more than we lost, but we also got crushed a couple times.

One year later: I've fixed a couple weak areas and grown in confidence, and my main 3.0 partners have improved quite a bit as well. And we've been fairly dominant: 5-0 so far, and 60-19 in games. A couple of those were reasonably competitive, and they don't bother me. But we've crushed some teams, and I'm starting to feel like I don't belong.

Nothing inappropriate rating-wise, and I don't smash balls at people, so it's not that kind of thing. I'm not much of a power player. It's just that 60-year-old 3.5 women are totally flummoxed by my kick serve, poaching, and athleticism. I feel bad when it's such a mismatch. I find myself trying to figure out how to tone things down as the match goes on while still playing my brand of tennis, but that can get kind of awkward.

I love being on this team. This is my primary tennis friend group. But it's weird realizing I could be playing 8.0 or even 9.0 right now instead. If I don't get bumped up to 4.5 next year, I'm gonna really wrestle with whether I shouldn't play 7.0 again, especially if this season continues the way it has so far.

It doesn't seem like very many of the best 4.0 men are playing 7.0 mixed...is there kind of an understood thing that they don't belong? Or is it just that they're usually choosing better tennis at 8.0/9.0 instead?

 

[daman sidhu]

I tried only one season to play mixed and it wasn't a good experience for me, so I have been declining the mixed invites since. I think it's a mixed bag in my area with some decent 4.0's I know who do play mixed while a majority don't.
FWIW, the mixed don't count towards your USTA rating, so people who might want to get bumped up may decide it's not worth investing their time in mixed.

 

[FuzzyYellowBalls]

A year ago I felt like a bit of an impostor at 4.0 -- I had assumed I would stay 3.5 after not winning much in my limited USTA experience. I joined my first league team last spring with a group of friends playing 7.0 mixed. I was a little stunned when my partners and I won more than we lost, but we also got crushed a couple times.

One year later: I've fixed a couple weak areas and grown in confidence, and my main 3.0 partners have improved quite a bit as well. And we've been fairly dominant: 5-0 so far, and 60-19 in games. A couple of those were reasonably competitive, and they don't bother me. But we've crushed some teams, and I'm starting to feel like I don't belong.

Nothing inappropriate rating-wise, and I don't smash balls at people, so it's not that kind of thing. I'm not much of a power player. It's just that 60-year-old 3.5 women are totally flummoxed by my kick serve, poaching, and athleticism. I feel bad when it's such a mismatch. I find myself trying to figure out how to tone things down as the match goes on while still playing my brand of tennis, but that can get kind of awkward.

I love being on this team. This is my primary tennis friend group. But it's weird realizing I could be playing 8.0 or even 9.0 right now instead. If I don't get bumped up to 4.5 next year, I'm gonna really wrestle with whether I shouldn't play 7.0 again, especially if this season continues the way it has so far.

It doesn't seem like very many of the best 4.0 men are playing 7.0 mixed...is there kind of an understood thing that they don't belong? Or is it just that they're usually choosing better tennis at 8.0/9.0 instead?

It's just too easy to end up playing a non competitive match in mixed ( a boring one against nice but not good at tennis pkayers) and some people have to be selective with tennis time. I don't really have any time constraints on my tennis and I really debate mixed if asked to play. Regardless of level, mixed is not usually the choice for serious players unless they already play on all the same gender teams they can and they still have time for mixed.

 

[naylor73]

If I’m playing in a usta match, my intention is to win the match. I don’t hit at people but I’m not going to hit away from people either. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve lost points due to trying to hit away from people as to spare feelings. I won’t play another mixed league, it’s just not my style.

 

[J_R_B]

A year ago I felt like a bit of an impostor at 4.0 -- I had assumed I would stay 3.5 after not winning much in my limited USTA experience. I joined my first league team last spring with a group of friends playing 7.0 mixed. I was a little stunned when my partners and I won more than we lost, but we also got crushed a couple times.

One year later: I've fixed a couple weak areas and grown in confidence, and my main 3.0 partners have improved quite a bit as well. And we've been fairly dominant: 5-0 so far, and 60-19 in games. A couple of those were reasonably competitive, and they don't bother me. But we've crushed some teams, and I'm starting to feel like I don't belong.

Nothing inappropriate rating-wise, and I don't smash balls at people, so it's not that kind of thing. I'm not much of a power player. It's just that 60-year-old 3.5 women are totally flummoxed by my kick serve, poaching, and athleticism. I feel bad when it's such a mismatch. I find myself trying to figure out how to tone things down as the match goes on while still playing my brand of tennis, but that can get kind of awkward.

I love being on this team. This is my primary tennis friend group. But it's weird realizing I could be playing 8.0 or even 9.0 right now instead. If I don't get bumped up to 4.5 next year, I'm gonna really wrestle with whether I shouldn't play 7.0 again, especially if this season continues the way it has so far.

It doesn't seem like very many of the best 4.0 men are playing 7.0 mixed...is there kind of an understood thing that they don't belong? Or is it just that they're usually choosing better tennis at 8.0/9.0 instead?

I'm a decent 4.0 guy, and I have played 7.0 mixed, but I really prefer 8.0. When you're the man and the upper half of an unbalanced mixed team (i.e. 4.0 in 7.0, 4.5 in 8.0, etc.), it takes a certain type of player to be ideal for that role, not just generically a strong player at your level. What is needed more than big strokes is speed & court coverage. As a 4.0 man in a 7.0 partnership, the best way to take advantage of the unbalanced pair is for the guy to cover as much court as possible and take as many shots as possible. Since it's likely the other team will start feeding the weaker woman the ball even when it is a suboptimal play, the job of the woman in that kind of partnership is to be able to finish easy putaways when they've served to you on a silver platter. My issue is that I'm old and slow with bad knees, so speed and court coverage is exactly the opposite of my strengths and even though I am in the upper 1/3 or so of 4.0 men, I am not an ideal candidate for 7.0 mixed. In 8.0, I have a stronger woman as a partner, and there is less pressure for me to take everything possible and play 3/4 of the court. I also find that hitting kick serves to women in mixed is far more effective than hard flat serves. I don't think kick serves are much of a thing in women's tennis, at least at 4.0 and lower. If you hit hard flat serves, even if they are not used to that pace in women's tennis, all it takes is a couple to get the timing down and they can return it.

 

[dkmura]

I agree with many of the comments here on being the stronger player in a 7.0 league. But until your team makes the playoffs and you continue to overwhelm all the other teams, I wouldn't feel bad. The USTA playoffs are where you'll find equal, if not MORE than equal tennis talent and athleticism.

 

[time_fly]

I have "mixed feelings" about the 4.0m / 3.0w combo at mixed. At my club virtually none of the 4.0 players are willing to play 7.0, men or women, but we've always done pretty well by pairing up strong 3.5s. This year however a couple new teams have formed in our area and have brought in some aggressive 4.0 guys that only play mixed and paired them with self-rated 3.0 ladies who are pretty strong. They are wrecking everyone, and these "mixed specialist" 4.0s are very obvious about just blasting everything at the woman. It definitely has been a different and less fun dynamic.

 

[travlerajm]

I personally enjoy playing mixed 8.0 as a strong 4.5 a lot more than playing men’s doubles. I’d still prefer singles over mixed, but mixed way more than men’s.

It suits some of my skillset strengths well (court coverage, net play, unconventional formation forward). And I get more exercise covering 3/4 of the court.

 

[Chalkdust]

Look, it depends on your motivation for playing.

As a good 4.0 guy playing 7.0 mixed, the tennis is going to be (relatively speaking) bad. You're going to have female 3.0 and 3.5 opponents - and they will not be playing good tennis (by 4.0 male standards). So if your motivation is playing good tennis, look elsewhere.

But if your motivation is the competition, then it can be fun, since of course you yourself are partnered with a 3.0 female which evens things out. So if you enjoy it for the challenge and competition, then go for it.

 

[naylor73]

I have "mixed feelings" about the 4.0m / 3.0w combo at mixed. At my club virtually none of the 4.0 players are willing to play 7.0, men or women, but we've always done pretty well by pairing up strong 3.5s. This year however a couple new teams have formed in our area and have brought in some aggressive 4.0 guys that only play mixed and paired them with self-rated 3.0 ladies who are pretty strong. They are wrecking everyone, and these "mixed specialist" 4.0s are very obvious about just blasting everything at the woman. It definitely has been a different and less fun dynamic.

Lol we have a guy in our 4.0 league that plays a ton of 7.0 mixed. I have heard he likes to blast everything at the women. I played him recently in a 4.0 mens match. The crying that ensued over an overhead that was hit at his feet was beyond laughable.

 

[Moveforwardalways]

7.0 mixed is not generally fun for a 4.0 male. Same for a 4.5 male in 8.0 mixed. Mixed should be at rating level only - for instance, 4.0 mixed (with only 4.0 rated men and women).

 

[nyta2]

It doesn't seem like very many of the best 4.0 men are playing 7.0 mixed...is there kind of an understood thing that they don't belong? Or is it just that they're usually choosing better tennis at 8.0/9.0 instead?

i think only suckers play mixed...
that said i'm on 2x 8.0 and 2x 9.0 teams
most of my 4.5 buddies say they will never play mixed... definitely more of a social thing...
mixed to me is a different game that men's dubs (don't s&v as much, must cover 3/4 of court)
it's been a while since i've play 7.0, but 8.0 isn't much better (eg. guys are typically stratospheres better than the girls)
9.0 gets closer (but the guys are still way better, but the girls can handle spin/pace better and lob/block shots a bit more consistently)... that said, at 9.0 for whatever reason, alot of 4.0 women captains are able to recruit teaching pro (5.0) to play in alot more... i suspect the pros run the clinics the women pay for so maybe obligated to play with them?
10.0 is where it equalizes or where girls are alot better (eg. 4.5M + 5.5F)

if you're going to stay in 7.0mx for the team/people... i wouldn't tone it down - continue to play your game, but there's still stuff to get out of it:
* consistently returning that annoying low frying pan serve (low with spin to sideT).... especially effective on fast hard courts with an active poacher
* perfecting the lob returns and volley lobs
* generally depth and hitting shots to be a good setter for your net partner
* work on precision placement vs. pace
all stuff you need in higher levels of dubs (mx or mens)

 

[silverwyvern4]

7.0 mixed is not generally fun for a 4.0 male. Same for a 4.5 male in 8.0 mixed. Mixed should be at rating level only - for instance, 4.0 mixed (with only 4.0 rated men and women).

7.5 and 8.5 combo mixed have smaller level differences than 7.0 and 8.0 and 9.0.

 

[Moveforwardalways]

7.5 and 8.5 combo mixed have smaller level differences than 7.0 and 8.0 and 9.0.

You could still play a 4.5/3.0 at 7.5 combo

 

[Jst21121]

Time is precious at our age. Whenever I get the go-ahead to go play tennis from the wife- I want to hit some balls for 1 1/2 hours and come back sweaty and tired. I'm not there to socialize. I'm there to work out, get my energy out, and de-stress.

I do not want to go out for 1 1/2 hours and play some doubles, not sweat, not get a workout in, hit some balls half-heartedly and socialize etc etc. And in addition- if you are light years ahead of the other opponents- it's just not as a fun. It's more fun to have a 7-6 singles match with tons of deuces running around with an even opponent.

Long story made short- you have to make your time doing something- worth it. I'm not saying mixed doubles ain't worth it, but to some people- it might not be- especially if they have limited playing time and opportunities due to kids, work, and life in general. And don't get me wrong- high level doubles can be just as competitive.

Even though I personally have found some doubles enjoyable when I do play it, I opt for singles each and every time because I want my time in tennis to be hustling, hitting as many balls as possible with a even opponent.

The worst feeling for me personally is going to have some me time- tennis- workout- and I get a subpar workout and then go home and wife is like ok you had your fun now do your dad duties- and I’m like but I didn’t get all my energy out/serve enough/hit enough enough rallies- and she looks at me like get real. And then I have to wait til 1-2 days later for another decent match.

No thanks.

 

[Idaho MEP]

I agree with many of the comments here on being the stronger player in a 7.0 league. But until your team makes the playoffs and you continue to overwhelm all the other teams, I wouldn't feel bad. The USTA playoffs are where you'll find equal, if not MORE than equal tennis talent and athleticism.

My team overall isn't good. We often only win my line. So I won't play in the playoffs.

 

[Idaho MEP]

You could still play a 4.5/3.0 at 7.5 combo

Not every section allows this. Mine doesn't.

 

[naylor73]

Mine either, no more than one full point difference in ratings is allowed

 

[travlerajm]

But if you are a 3.95 dynamic rating playing with a 2.55, and then you add in 0.5 for gender difference, that’s 1.9 difference in ntrp, so 4 ntrp levels between partners.

You are going to need to access some funky staggered formations to maximize your team success.

 

[Idaho MEP]

Time is precious at our age. Whenever I get the go-ahead to go play tennis from the wife- I want to hit some balls for 1 1/2 hours and come back sweaty and tired. I'm not there to socialize. I'm there to work out, get my energy out, and de-stress.

I do not want to go out for 1 1/2 hours and play some doubles, not sweat, not get a workout in, hit some balls half-heartedly and socialize etc etc. And in addition- if you are light years ahead of the other opponents- it's just not as a fun. It's more fun to have a 7-6 singles match with tons of deuces running around with an even opponent.

Long story made short- you have to make your time doing something- worth it. I'm not saying mixed doubles ain't worth it, but to some people- it might not be- especially if they have limited playing time and opportunities due to kids, work, and life in general. And don't get me wrong- high level doubles can be just as competitive.

Even though I personally have found some doubles enjoyable when I do play it, I opt for singles each and every time because I want my time in tennis to be hustling, hitting as many balls as possible with a even opponent.

The worst feeling for me personally is going to have some me time- tennis- workout- and I get a subpar workout and then go home and wife is like ok you had your fun now do your dad duties- and I’m like but I didn’t get all my energy out/serve enough/hit enough enough rallies- and she looks at me like get real. And then I have to wait til 1-2 days later for another decent match.

No thanks.

I hear that.

One of the challenges with singles is that it's difficult to find people who are at the right level. Singles with a level gap is kinda boring. I'm not a club player, so finding guys at just the right level is tricky.

Whereas for doubles with a group of friends, there's often a way to make decent teams.

 

[Curtennis]

Only question that matters is, are you having fun?

 

[atatu]

I played on an over 55 8.0 league two years ago, as a 4.5, I had to play with a 3.5. Not only was I playing against 4.0 women, they were 4.0 women over the age of 55. I stopped after that season, when my captain asked why I told her it was like kicking puppies, I don't enjoy that very much.

 

[time_fly]

Lol we have a guy in our 4.0 league that plays a ton of 7.0 mixed. I have heard he likes to blast everything at the women. I played him recently in a 4.0 mens match. The crying that ensued over an overhead that was hit at his feet was beyond laughable.

Yeah, I have no respect for guys that only play mixed, particularly those that are playing as a higher-rated player (4.0 at 7.0, 4.5 at 8.0 etc) and targeting the women with every shot.

 

[Creighton]

Yeah, I have no respect for guys that only play mixed, particularly those that are playing as a higher-rated player (4.0 at 7.0, 4.5 at 8.0 etc) and targeting the women with every shot.

Yeah I played an 8.0 match the other day. I'm a 3.5 and my partner as a 4.0 lady. Still, the 4.5 guy kept hitting at my female partner. It's like, you can pick on me too. Feel free to hit some of those balls my way.

 

[nyta2]

Yeah I played an 8.0 match the other day. I'm a 3.5 and my partner as a 4.0 lady. Still, the 4.5 guy kept hitting at my female partner. It's like, you can pick on me too. Feel free to hit some of those balls my way.

i'd pick on the girl even if she were a 4.5F and you a 3.5M... i find that 4.5F get there by virtue of of their consistent baseline game in singles (eg. lobbers)... and still have no clue at net (most of the time)... whereas an athletic 3.5M especially borderline 4.0M will handle being hit at, much easier (just by virtue of playing other sports).

 

[romano]

Play your level, I bet you'd find Mixed 8.0 more satisfying. I wish USTA would stop this 2-level gap in Mixed leagues and treat them like the Men & Women Adult Leagues (Mixed 3.5, Mixed 4.0, etc.). Play up if you want, but you would not have a 4.0 against a 3.0 as we do now in Mixed 7.0.

 

[Fintft]

i'd pick on the girl even if she were a 4.5F and you a 3.5M... i find that 4.5F get there by virtue of of their consistent baseline game in singles (eg. lobbers)... and still have no clue at net (most of the time)... whereas an athletic 3.5M especially borderline 4.0M will handle being hit at, much easier (just by virtue of playing other sports).

So why not hit at the male in that case?
It's not only about winning, but about improving etc.

I'm a decent 4.0 guy, and I have played 7.0 mixed, but I really prefer 8.0. When you're the man and the upper half of an unbalanced mixed team (i.e. 4.0 in 7.0, 4.5 in 8.0, etc.), it takes a certain type of player to be ideal for that role, not just generically a strong player at your level. What is needed more than big strokes is speed & court coverage. As a 4.0 man in a 7.0 partnership, the best way to take advantage of the unbalanced pair is for the guy to cover as much court as possible and take as many shots as possible. Since it's likely the other team will start feeding the weaker woman the ball even when it is a suboptimal play, the job of the woman in that kind of partnership is to be able to finish easy putaways when they've served to you on a silver platter. My issue is that I'm old and slow with bad knees, so speed and court coverage is exactly the opposite of my strengths and even though I am in the upper 1/3 or so of 4.0 men, I am not an ideal candidate for 7.0 mixed. In 8.0, I have a stronger woman as a partner, and there is less pressure for me to take everything possible and play 3/4 of the court. I also find that hitting kick serves to women in mixed is far more effective than hard flat serves. I don't think kick serves are much of a thing in women's tennis, at least at 4.0 and lower. If you hit hard flat serves, even if they are not used to that pace in women's tennis, all it takes is a couple to get the timing down and they can return it.

But do you have to cover as much court as possible? Can't you play first strike, decisively? Away from the woman 99% of times.

 

[Moon Shooter]

Until USTA fixes the rating difference between men and women mixed doubles will be a mess. But rec tennis is not the US Open so USTA doesn’t care.

 

[Fintft]

Even at 9.0, most balls go to the women.

 

[Moon Shooter]

Even at 9.0, most balls go to the women.

The women’s levels are narrower from absolute beginner through 4.0. The women’s 4.5 seems to be as wide as men’s categories and the women’s 5.0 can stretch on forever. That is likely why schmke found teams with a 5.0 female do as well as teams with a 5.0 male.

What NTRP rating combinations works best in 18 & over Mixed? More Interesting Tennis League Stats

It is time for 18 & over Mixed teams to form in my area for the 2016 season. This is an early start league for us so we use our early sta...

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[Yamin]

There should be a rule that the guy has to be equal or lesser rank.

 

[Fintft]

There should be a rule that the guy has to be equal or lesser rank.

Otherwise he touches only 1/8 of the balls lol

 

[TennisOTM]

I think if you are crushing true 7.0 teams, it's partly because you are a high-end 4.0 and partly because your partner is a high-end 3.0. If your partner was a low-end 3.0 you would have much more trouble. She has to either serve or return on half the points of the match - a decent 7.0 team would exploit those points and give you trouble.

If there are weaker 4.0 male / 3.0 female players on your team, it could make sense to trade partners against the weaker teams - the best 3.0 woman might be wasted on you when she could help another partner more, and then you could have a more even match on your line.

I've also seen frequent under-level partnerships in mixed doubles, because there are many couples who want to play together but happen to add up to 6.5, so they have to play 7.0 or nothing. This is maybe part of what you're dealing with. A high-end 7.0 team against a 6.5 team can get ugly.

 

[Idaho MEP]

I think if you are crushing true 7.0 teams, it's partly because you are a high-end 4.0 and partly because your partner is a high-end 3.0. If your partner was a low-end 3.0 you would have much more trouble. She has to either serve or return on half the points of the match - a decent 7.0 team would exploit those points and give you trouble.

I'm 6-0 now this spring, with three different 3.0 partners. Closest match was 6-3, 6-4. Five of them were full 7.0 teams (just one 6.5 team). I don't rate very highly by TR's main dynamic rating, and none of my partners do either, although my main/best partner and I both rate pretty high according to their "mixed" dynamic rating.

My main partner and I have both improved quite a bit in the past year, so that could be a significant factor. For each of us, our main TR rating is based on league last summer, so we're simply better at tennis almost a year later. But also, I think what J_R_B said is relevant:

When you're the man and the upper half of an unbalanced mixed team (i.e. 4.0 in 7.0, 4.5 in 8.0, etc.), it takes a certain type of player to be ideal for that role, not just generically a strong player at your level. What is needed more than big strokes is speed & court coverage.

I do think my game is particularly effective for 7.0 mixed, for three reasons:

1. Speed & court coverage
2. Serve variety and heavy spin: mostly solid kick, but mix up my serve quite a bit
3. Aggressive poacher

I don't think I've been broken yet, in 12 sets. I get quite a few free points off 3.5 women not being used to a decent kick. And if they start to figure it out, I mix it up and keep them off balance, and keep getting free points all match. We usually hold my partner's serve as well: I poach or fake poach almost every point, and it's pretty effective at this level. And then I run everything down all match long.

I still think we're vulnerable to two solid 3.5s who 1) can rip it past my poaching attempts, and 2) are used to kick serves/different spins.

 

[Creighton]

I'm 6-0 now this spring, with three different 3.0 partners. Closest match was 6-3, 6-4. Five of them were full 7.0 teams (just one 6.5 team). I don't rate very highly by TR's main dynamic rating, and none of my partners do either, although my main/best partner and I both rate pretty high according to their "mixed" dynamic rating.

My main partner and I have both improved quite a bit in the past year, so that could be a significant factor. For each of us, our main TR rating is based on league last summer, so we're simply better at tennis almost a year later. But also, I think what J_R_B said is relevant:



I do think my game is particularly effective for 7.0 mixed, for three reasons:

1. Speed & court coverage
2. Serve variety and heavy spin: mostly solid kick, but mix up my serve quite a bit
3. Aggressive poacher

I don't think I've been broken yet, in 12 sets. I get quite a few free points off 3.5 women not being used to a decent kick. And if they start to figure it out, I mix it up and keep them off balance, and keep getting free points all match. We usually hold my partner's serve as well: I poach or fake poach almost every point, and it's pretty effective at this level. And then I run everything down all match long.

I still think we're vulnerable to two solid 3.5s who 1) can rip it past my poaching attempts, and 2) are used to kick serves/different spins.

Is this 18+ or 40+?

 

[Idaho MEP]

Is this 18+ or 40+?

18+

 

[Moon Shooter]

I think if you are crushing true 7.0 teams, it's partly because you are a high-end 4.0 and partly because your partner is a high-end 3.0. If your partner was a low-end 3.0 you would have much more trouble. She has to either serve or return on half the points of the match - a decent 7.0 team would exploit those points and give you trouble.

If there are weaker 4.0 male / 3.0 female players on your team, it could make sense to trade partners against the weaker teams - the best 3.0 woman might be wasted on you when she could help another partner more, and then you could have a more even match on your line.

I've also seen frequent under-level partnerships in mixed doubles, because there are many couples who want to play together but happen to add up to 6.5, so they have to play 7.0 or nothing. This is maybe part of what you're dealing with. A high-end 7.0 team against a 6.5 team can get ugly.

In 7.0 it doesn’t matter if he is high 4.0 or low 4.0. Even if he is low 4.0 he will be much better then a high 4.0 female. Is it true that a low 3.0 male will be better than a high 3.0 female? Nope. I know high level 3.0 females that are much better then low 3.0 males. That is why the usta rating system makes mixed doubles horrible. You will get much more bang for your rating points by using these exaggerated differences. You just get more skill on the court.

Edit: that said I am hoping I will play some 7.0 mixed with the 4.0 female player I played in the post your match video. If we end up playing I think we will do fine because we are both used to playing upper level players and can handle pace. there is also the surprise factor. They will, try hitting the ball to her and realize she is solid. Finally I don’t really think usta ratings in our area are valid. I think I play like a bottom third 3.5 instead of a 3.0. But I realize everyone thinks that so we shall see.

 

[TennisOTM]

In 7.0 it doesn’t matter if he is high 4.0 or low 4.0. Even if he is low 4.0 he will be much better then a high 4.0 female. Is it true that a low 3.0 male will be better than a high 3.0 female? Nope. I know high level 3.0 females that are much better then low 3.0 males.

I can never get my head around your thinking on this. There is a male on both teams and a female on both teams. If team A male is much better than team B male, team A has a huge advantage that is hard to overcome. That's much more likely if he's a high 4.0 vs. a low 4.0, so of course it matters.

There are plenty of 4.0 men who have poor results in 7.0 mixed. I have both witnessed it myself playing 7.0 mixed, and seen it in some data analysis. The ones who do poorly are more likely to be lower-end 4.0. They either run into another 4.0M/3.0F team where the other male is better, or they play a 3.5M/3.5F team where they are not that much better than the 3.5M and can't make up for having the weakest partner.

 

[Moon Shooter]

I can never get my head around your thinking on this. There is a male on both teams and a female on both teams. If team A male is much better than team B male, team A has a huge advantage that is hard to overcome. That's much more likely if he's a high 4.0 vs. a low 4.0, so of course it matters.

There are plenty of 4.0 men who have poor results in 7.0 mixed. I have both witnessed it myself playing 7.0 mixed, and seen it in some data analysis. The ones who do poorly are more likely to be lower-end 4.0. They either run into another 4.0M/3.0F team where the other male is better, or they play a 3.5M/3.5F team where they are not that much better than the 3.5M and can't make up for having the weakest partner.

Ok I was ambiguous. I agree with what you say here. Certainly if a low level 4.0 male teams up with a low level 3.0 female they can lose matches.

But tell me if you agree:
1) To go from a complete beginner to being competitive with 3.55 males you have to improve more than you do to go from complete beginner to competitive with 3.95 females.
2) This means there is a wider skill gap between complete beginner and being able to play competitively with 3.55 males than there is between complete beginner and being competitive with 3.95 females.
3) Thus in order fill that gap a player needs more skill to become a 3.55 male then they do to become a 3.95 female.

Now maybe you think this is questionable but at least you likely would agree that the 3.55 males would typically be at least competitive with the 3.95 females if not clearly better right?

Now the same is not true of a 2.55 male and a 2.95 female. The low level 3.0 males I know would clearly lose to the upper end 3.0 females I know. I think the 2.55 males are better than 2.55 females but the difference is not so pronounced as 3.55 males compared to 3.55 females.

So how do we get the most skill on the court? Imagine a unit of tennis skill. This Tennis Skill Unit (TSU) is what actually predicts the outcome of matches so they are the same for men and women and the more you have the higher your chance of winning. So if a woman has 610 TSU she will be more likely to win a match against a Male with only 600 TSU. You want as many TSUs on your side of the court as possible.

So here is roughly how I would chart out these skill units:
Lowest 3.0 level
2.51m = 200 TSU
2.51f = 200 TSU
This is because the men really don't have much of a 2.5 league and it is hard for the worst male players to drop into 2.5 level. So the lowest 3.0 females are about as good as the lowest 3.0 males. In my experience.

Top 3.0/bottom 3.5 level
3.01M = 430
3.01F = 375

So the top male 3.0 players are better than the top female 3.0 players but not that much better.

Top 3.5/bottom 4.0

3.51M = 700
3.51 F = 435

This is where I see the huge difference. The females have a much more narrow 3.5 bucket. That is the amount of skill needed to go from low 3.5 to low 4.0 for men is huge compared to low 3.5 to low 4.0 for women. 3.5 is a massive bucket for men with a huge variety of skill levels.

Top 4.0/bottom 4.5

4.01M = 950
4.01F = 570

Just a rough guesstimate. I think the top male 4.0s can still beat the lowest female 4.5s. But the female 4.0 bucket is wider than the 3.5 bucket.

You can tweak these numbers as you want and this was just a rough approximation. But my point is even if you have the lowest level 4.0 with 700 TSU they will still bring more skill than the highest female 4.0 who would have about 570 TSU.

Now it is true that if that lowest 4.0 male has a lowest 3.0 female they will have about 900 TSU. And a high 4.0 female with a high 3.0 male will have 570 + 430 1000 TSU and would therefore likely win. But even a low 4.0 male is better than a high 4.0 female. And if both play with a top 3.0 partner the low 4.0 male team will be better. 700 +375 1075 compared to 570 + 430 = 1000. And that is extreme top 4.0 female versus bottom 4.0 male.

So lets just say you can choose players at the top of their level. as many teams can, since there are only 3 courts and you can choose both men and women. What will you go with? Teams that have the largest skill difference in partners. The top 4.0 males will bring 950 TSU and when you combine that with the top 3.0 Female you get 1325 TSU. No other possible combination brings as much skill on the court. And what do we find to be the winningest 7.0 team according to schmke? 4.0 men playing with 3.0 women.

http://computerratings.blogspot.com/2015/08/what-ntrp-rating-combinations-works.html

Thus USTA rating system encourages mixed matches to have the highest level male player combine with the lowest level female player at the 7.0 level.

 

[J_R_B]

Ok I was ambiguous. I agree with what you say here. Certainly if a low level 4.0 male teams up with a low level 3.0 female they can lose matches.

But tell me if you agree:

That's far enough for me to conclude no.

 

[Moon Shooter]

That's far enough for me to conclude no.

I would never expect you to even try to follow anything involving numbers.

 

[J_R_B]

I would never expect you to even try to follow anything involving numbers.

LMAO. My career is statistical modeling. I've seen enough of your garbage to just ignore it.

 

[TennisOTM]

Ok I was ambiguous. I agree with what you say here. Certainly if a low level 4.0 male teams up with a low level 3.0 female they can lose matches.

But tell me if you agree:
1) To go from a complete beginner to being competitive with 3.55 males you have to improve more than you do to go from complete beginner to competitive with 3.95 females.
2) This means there is a wider skill gap between complete beginner and being able to play competitively with 3.55 males than there is between complete beginner and being competitive with 3.95 females.
3) Thus in order fill that gap a player needs more skill to become a 3.55 male then they do to become a 3.95 female.

Now maybe you think this is questionable but at least you likely would agree that the 3.55 males would typically be at least competitive with the 3.95 females if not clearly better right?

Now the same is not true of a 2.55 male and a 2.95 female. The low level 3.0 males I know would clearly lose to the upper end 3.0 females I know. I think the 2.55 males are better than 2.55 females but the difference is not so pronounced as 3.55 males compared to 3.55 females.

So how do we get the most skill on the court? Imagine a unit of tennis skill. This Tennis Skill Unit (TSU) is what actually predicts the outcome of matches so they are the same for men and women and the more you have the higher your chance of winning. So if a woman has 610 TSU she will be more likely to win a match against a Male with only 600 TSU. You want as many TSUs on your side of the court as possible.

So here is roughly how I would chart out these skill units:
Lowest 3.0 level
2.51m = 200 TSU
2.51f = 200 TSU
This is because the men really don't have much of a 2.5 league and it is hard for the worst male players to drop into 2.5 level. So the lowest 3.0 females are about as good as the lowest 3.0 males. In my experience.

Top 3.0/bottom 3.5 level
3.01M = 430
3.01F = 375

So the top male 3.0 players are better than the top female 3.0 players but not that much better.

Top 3.5/bottom 4.0

3.51M = 700
3.51 F = 435

This is where I see the huge difference. The females have a much more narrow 3.5 bucket. That is the amount of skill needed to go from low 3.5 to low 4.0 for men is huge compared to low 3.5 to low 4.0 for women. 3.5 is a massive bucket for men with a huge variety of skill levels.

Top 4.0/bottom 4.5

4.01M = 950
4.01F = 570

Just a rough guesstimate. I think the top male 4.0s can still beat the lowest female 4.5s. But the female 4.0 bucket is wider than the 3.5 bucket.

You can tweak these numbers as you want and this was just a rough approximation. But my point is even if you have the lowest level 4.0 with 700 TSU they will still bring more skill than the highest female 4.0 who would have about 570 TSU.

Now it is true that if that lowest 4.0 male has a lowest 3.0 female they will have about 900 TSU. And a high 4.0 female with a high 3.0 male will have 570 + 430 1000 TSU and would therefore likely win. But even a low 4.0 male is better than a high 4.0 female. And if both play with a top 3.0 partner the low 4.0 male team will be better. 700 +375 1075 compared to 570 + 430 = 1000. And that is extreme top 4.0 female versus bottom 4.0 male.

So lets just say you can choose players at the top of their level. as many teams can, since there are only 3 courts and you can choose both men and women. What will you go with? Teams that have the largest skill difference in partners. The top 4.0 males will bring 950 TSU and when you combine that with the top 3.0 Female you get 1325 TSU. No other possible combination brings as much skill on the court. And what do we find to be the winningest 7.0 team according to schmke? 4.0 men playing with 3.0 women.

http://computerratings.blogspot.com/2015/08/what-ntrp-rating-combinations-works.html

Thus USTA rating system encourages mixed matches to have the highest level male player combine with the lowest level female player at the 7.0 level.

First, I disagree that the skill gaps from low-end to high-end of a given NTRP level could possibly vary this extremely for different levels and genders. Skill gap is quantified by average head-to-head score differential, and we have no reason to believe that USTA is using different score-based rating formulas different groups.

Second, even if your "Tennis Skill Unit" estimates are correct, they are not consistent with schmke's data, where he found that 3.0M/4.0F teams defeat 3.5M/3.5F teams 52% of the time over thousands of matches. Your system predicts that the 3.5/3.5 combo would dominate these matchups on average, which is disproven by the data.

 

[Moon Shooter]

First issue: Do you think the difference between a 3.75male and a 3.75 female is the same as the difference between a 2.51 male and a 2.51 female?

IMO there is a much larger difference between a mid 4.0 male and a mid 4.0 female then there is between a bottom 3.0 male and female. If you agree then the buckets must be larger for the male. That is in part because there are more female players hence more data to fine tune these groups.

As for the second issue I think the amount of skill on the court is only part of the equation. A clear strategy like always try to hit to the female player is also important. When you have a 3.5 and 3.5 always hit to the female when you can works well. When you have a 3.0 m and a 4.0 female that can backfire and cost a few games. Having a simple strategy counts for something.

There are also other factors in terms of numbers of players. Most of the time there will be more 3.5 players on a 7.0 mixed teams. The captain will only have a few top end 3.0 and 4.0 players. Thus those players will tend to be at the upper end because the captain will only have a few or not bother. The captain will typically want more 3.5 players for versatility so there will be more mid Or low level 3.5 players on the team.

Edit: btw You can just use utr to map out the TSUs if you want. Drop the decimal in a person’s utr and you can get a 3 digit number and call it a tsu. I tend to think utr is a bit off between genders but utr is more evidence of how the female levels are more narrow then the males. A low level usta 3.0 male and female will have about the same utr. But a mid 4.0 male and a mid 4.0 female will have a considerably different utr.

 

[Moon Shooter]

LMAO. My career is statistical modeling. I've seen enough of your garbage to just ignore it.

That is fine keep ignoring my posts. Your petty insults won’t be missed. You never demonstrate even a basic understanding of how these rating systems work.

 

[time_fly]

As for the second issue I think the amount of skill on the court is only part of the equation. A clear strategy like always try to hit to the female player is also important. When you have a 3.5 and 3.5 always hit to the female when you can works well.

The counter-strategy that experienced 4.0M / 3.0W pairs will use for this will be to have the woman shade towards the alley and stand close to the net as often as possible. Even if she isn't a great volleyer she can usually block balls back from that position. The guy covers everything else. They are daring you to lob her, because of course in that case you are still hitting to the guy. When the woman serves, the guy just tries to be as active and disruptive at the net as possible. Even good 4.0M / 3.0W pairs will lose her serve sometimes. When she is receiving, she only needs to make one return and leading to winning one point in order to win the game, if the guy can win all of his receiving points.

 

[chas1116]

I’m at the very top of 3.5, low end of 4.0. I play in an 8.0 MXD and the funny thing is, I usually have a higher UTR than my female 4.5 partner and in some cases- a higher UTR than both of my 4.0 M/F opponents. I also played in a 6.0 MXD with my GF who is just getting started in USTA. Frustrating as hell to lose to two mediocre 3.0’s that couldn’t carry my jock because they hit every ball to my 2.5 GF. I end up trying to hit a winner on every point and get frustrated when it doesn’t happen. It’s a great learning experience for the 2.5 GF though because she gets coached through the entire match by me. Her difficulty in returning serves is what holds us back

 

[Moon Shooter]

I’m at the very top of 3.5, low end of 4.0. I play in an 8.0 MXD and the funny thing is, I usually have a higher UTR than my female 4.5 partner and in some cases- a higher UTR than both of my 4.0 M/F opponents. I also played in a 6.0 MXD with my GF who is just getting started in USTA. Frustrating as hell to lose to two mediocre 3.0’s that couldn’t carry my jock because they hit every ball to my 2.5 GF. I end up trying to hit a winner on every point and get frustrated when it doesn’t happen. It’s a great learning experience for the 2.5 GF though because she gets coached through the entire match by me. Her difficulty in returning serves is what holds us back

Yes if a 2.5 Is having a bad day you might drop a few games because she serves 4 double faults before she can even hit 4 serves over and in. This is why you can’t take this stuff too seriously or you will become a jerk and possibly lose a gf. If you play much more mixed doubles then adult your utr could be more accurate then your usta rating. I haven’t looked at utr much lately.

 

[time_fly]

Playing with a 2.5W sounds like my worst nightmare. There's no way I would play 6.0 mixed, which is why I also can't fault 4.0s for not playing 7.0, 4.5s for not playing 8.0, etc. Although the women become at least semi-competent as the level rises.

 

[chas1116]

Playing with a 2.5W sounds like my worst nightmare. There's no way I would play 6.0 mixed, which is why I also can't fault 4.0s for not playing 7.0, 4.5s for not playing 8.0, etc. Although the women become at least semi-competent as the level rises.

As mentioned- the ability to coach/position her on literally every point helps her game big time. Really the only area where I can completely dominate is serve/serve return. We have had mixed results- her volleys are fairly solid, groundstrokes not bad, her serve speed is not good and her ability to return even a moderately paced serve is not good either- she wants to get better and is willing to put in the time. I would think moving up from F 2.5 to F 3.5 can be very rapid with proper instruction and playing 3-4 times per week