After you master the forehand fundamentals, Forearm Pronation give you more power???
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halalula1234
Professional
i think yes? the earlier you prepare for the back swing the more power u will get.. however my forehand is ugleeey.
Pronation gives you more power when you serve. You also pronate when you use a windshield-wiper forehand...but I don't know if pronation would give your "general" forehand more power.
Stepping in gives you more power, the whole kinetic chain thing's at work. Rotating your body gives you more power. Wristing gives you more power, although it's really not recommended to do this.
In general, anything you do that will increase your racquet-head speed will give you more power. Therefore, if pronating on YOUR forehand increases YOUR racquet-head speed, then it would give YOU more power.
Stepping in gives you more power, the whole kinetic chain thing's at work. Rotating your body gives you more power. Wristing gives you more power, although it's really not recommended to do this.
In general, anything you do that will increase your racquet-head speed will give you more power. Therefore, if pronating on YOUR forehand increases YOUR racquet-head speed, then it would give YOU more power.
i'm really impress with Zacho. there is nothing better than what he just said
when you pronate forearm, racket have tendency go up and thru the ball, it reduce impact, but you use extra muscle on it, the result: toss up.
I think that forearm rotation can give you more racquet head speed.
But it is usually suppination on the FH, not pronation that is seen most commonly; going from a closed face to square face.
DelPotro is an unusual example of someone with a powerful FH who does not use forearm rotation yet has tremendous racquet head speed.
He shows that it is not necessary.
But it is usually suppination on the FH, not pronation that is seen most commonly; going from a closed face to square face.
DelPotro is an unusual example of someone with a powerful FH who does not use forearm rotation yet has tremendous racquet head speed.
He shows that it is not necessary.
user92626
G.O.A.T.
After you mastered the fh fund. the kenetic chain & timing are next to be exploited.
kenetic energy requires you be fluid and whippy. The only thing that is rigid is the racket. Your body, arm, wrist need to be flexive to be whippy. Contrary to Leed's point, you do milk every ounce of power from everything including the wrist. Fed and Nadal all show that. Disclaimer: newbies shouldn't copy Fed and Nadal's wrists right away.
kenetic energy requires you be fluid and whippy. The only thing that is rigid is the racket. Your body, arm, wrist need to be flexive to be whippy. Contrary to Leed's point, you do milk every ounce of power from everything including the wrist. Fed and Nadal all show that. Disclaimer: newbies shouldn't copy Fed and Nadal's wrists right away.
ManuGinobili
Hall of Fame
It gives you more spin, but in order to get that extra something you have to practice a lot and a lot with plenty of chances to develop a wrong habit along the way... Pronation is kinda natural, but if you think about it too much you might use it in an unnatural way.
To increase your power, it is best to discover and utilize the kinetic chain of the body first. Though it could be just as hard to learn , you're under less risks for injury, while the reward is plenty.
To increase your power, it is best to discover and utilize the kinetic chain of the body first. Though it could be just as hard to learn , you're under less risks for injury, while the reward is plenty.
This is one of those areas that you had best know what your doing because there is a pretty good chance its going to screw up your entire stroke - I would advise staying away from it unless your a very good player and even then its extremely tricky.
I would assume your trying to pronate just at the wrist release? If your in the high 5's maybe but watch out.
I would assume your trying to pronate just at the wrist release? If your in the high 5's maybe but watch out.
Power Player
Bionic Poster
It's more of a spin thing and it matters how you hit. You can torque your racquet back so the head points down more and then swing low to high and across your body with a western grip. The point of contact will be a bit different then swinging more flat and horizontally.
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sennoc
Guest
You do not understand physical principles of pronation, I'm afraid.
If you serve flat, pronation increases ball speed ca. 5%. If you hit kick serve, pronation is not important at all. It's a scientific fact; Elliott et al., 1995.
If you hit forehand (or 1h backhand) with pronation, everything depends on the angle between the racquet and the forearm. If the angle is low, pronation does not add too much power. If the angle is optimal - 90 degrees - pronation adds as much power as the movement of your arm (biomechanical data from motion capture systems, do not have time to find sources).
I'm pretty sure I understand the physical principles of pronation just fine. I'll admit what I said in my post was vague and very general but it's to get the point across to everyone.
I don't know about your kick serve, but I definitely do pronate on mine.
You will agree with me that faster racquet-head speed = more power, with all other factors being equal, yes?
is that means double the racket speed if we pronate compare to not pronate at all?
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user92626
G.O.A.T.
I second Papa's opinion.
With all due respect all this forearm pronation for power seems like bs to me. It is just a minor detail that one does subconsciously as one adjusts his shots. It's akin to keeping the racket face closed before contact point. There's no absolute way or a way to add up the power.
Stick to the fundamentals which FYB site demonstrates so well. Then, pay attention to the natural body mechanics.
With all due respect all this forearm pronation for power seems like bs to me. It is just a minor detail that one does subconsciously as one adjusts his shots. It's akin to keeping the racket face closed before contact point. There's no absolute way or a way to add up the power.
Stick to the fundamentals which FYB site demonstrates so well. Then, pay attention to the natural body mechanics.
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sennoc
Guest
Zachol82, no offense, but if you write that pronation is important at serves and you don't know what it does at forehands, there is something very wrong here.
Pronation is a rotation of a forearm. If the angle between your racquet and the forearm is almost 0 degree - this is what we have at serves - you can't produce much kinetic energy by pronation. That's physically impossible. Pronation at serves is biomechanically important, but not as a source of power/energy.
Check forehands and 1h backhands in professional tennis. At the moment of contact, the angle between racquet and forearm is usually as close to 90 degrees as possible. There are exceptions, of course, because pro players can reduce power (if they want) just by changing that angle.
Ho, there are three imporant sources of kinetic energy in forehands/backhands: your body, your arm and forearm (there is also a small part generated by hand/wrist). So if you know how to use pronation at forehands, you can increase momentum of racquet head by ca. 30 %.
Pronation is a rotation of a forearm. If the angle between your racquet and the forearm is almost 0 degree - this is what we have at serves - you can't produce much kinetic energy by pronation. That's physically impossible. Pronation at serves is biomechanically important, but not as a source of power/energy.
Check forehands and 1h backhands in professional tennis. At the moment of contact, the angle between racquet and forearm is usually as close to 90 degrees as possible. There are exceptions, of course, because pro players can reduce power (if they want) just by changing that angle.
Ho, there are three imporant sources of kinetic energy in forehands/backhands: your body, your arm and forearm (there is also a small part generated by hand/wrist). So if you know how to use pronation at forehands, you can increase momentum of racquet head by ca. 30 %.
user92626
G.O.A.T.
S
sennoc
Guest
Here's a guy who knows things. Confirms everything I know and said.
Hehehe, not so fast, please
In one of your previous posts you wrote:"kinetic energy requires you be fluid and whippy"
I can't confirm that. Kinetic energy does not require "a whip".
Kinetic energy is one thing. You have to do everything to increase it. But this is not a guarantee of a powerful stroke.
The other thing is time. You have to condense your kinetic energy into a very short period of time, because you do not need energy - you need power. This step is your "whip" - but it is a separate physical process.
So kinetic energy is one thing, power is another thing.
I like to use a physical example - terawatt lasers. How can they work if the impulse of light is so powerful that the first cycle of electric field destroys every atom? That's easy.
First physicists generate energy. Not too much (they want to have their lasers after experiment too). Then they amplify light... At the end they condense previously amplified light into a very, very short impulse (like hundreds of femtoseconds). And voila - you have TERAWATTS from something so small you can put it on a table. Wow.
So:
1. Generate energy.
2. Condense it into a very short impulse.
Unfortunately, many amateur tennis players do the first step only.
Interesting. So the wrist laid back and the pronation adds more power? Is that what's be suggested? This seems actually like a very keen insight that I never really thought about.
I can see how this could be true as the lever would be longer. Clearly if you rotate your wrist (in a clockwise direction) with your racquet in line with your arm your racquet won't travel a great distance. But if you lay your wrist back the racquet would travel much farther - thus creating more speed.. I think the serve Doctor explains something quite similiar with regards to pronation on the flat serve..
Though my physics is awful shaky.. I always regret not taking physics in HS. I told my dad it hurts my skiing and tennis but he doesn't buy that.
Still I would totally like to add more topspin to my shots. Should on concentrate on laying my wrist back while pronating then? Can you still finish over the shoulder with such a pronation?
I will admit I can't shake such a finish as its kind of ingrained by now. Still I tend to hit too many forehands flat and long..
I can see how this could be true as the lever would be longer. Clearly if you rotate your wrist (in a clockwise direction) with your racquet in line with your arm your racquet won't travel a great distance. But if you lay your wrist back the racquet would travel much farther - thus creating more speed.. I think the serve Doctor explains something quite similiar with regards to pronation on the flat serve..
Though my physics is awful shaky.. I always regret not taking physics in HS. I told my dad it hurts my skiing and tennis but he doesn't buy that.
Still I would totally like to add more topspin to my shots. Should on concentrate on laying my wrist back while pronating then? Can you still finish over the shoulder with such a pronation?
I will admit I can't shake such a finish as its kind of ingrained by now. Still I tend to hit too many forehands flat and long..
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Do you have a tennisplyer . net membership? In the forum Brian Gordon discloses some recent research results on the serve:
Shoulder internal rotation: 43% of racquet speed
Forearm internal rotation : -5% of racquet speed
but, related to this discussion, he also found that wrist flexion accounted for 43% of racquet speed.
It seems to me that the big difference between the forearm pronation observed in the now-classical windshield wiper forehand and the forehands of Federer and Nadal, is that it does not typically include wrist flexion, that is, the wrist remains 'laid back' at, and often after, impact.
This is different than in the serve, where internal rotation of the shoulder drives pronation of the forearm and where wrist flexion occurs as well. Someone on these boards described the forehands of Nadal and Federer as 'horizontal serves'. It appears to me that what these guys do, the 'doorknob turn' pronation described by tricky, is accompanied by wrist flexion. Not on every ball, but certainly on some. They don't always hit with the wrist 'laid back', in fact, on some balls the wrist is obviously flexing very quickly as contact is made. If wrist flexion accounts for 43% of racquet speed on the serve, I think it's likely that it also contributes to the racquet head speed of those who allow their wrists to flex on the forehand as well.
I guess my point is that forearm pronation might not give you a speed boost on the forehand, but wrist flexion might, and you can't flex your wrist on the forehand without pronating at the same time (I think).
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The truth is, we're kinda loosey-goosey when it comes to the term "pronation." When people talk about service pronation, they're talking about the last phase of the service motion, where you have a combination of ulnar deviation, active forearm pronation and passive wrist reflexion. That wrist flexion contributes up to 30% of racquet speed. The passive wrist flexion is -- again -- PASSIVE. Meaning, you don't self-consciously snap your wrist.
Forearm pronation influences the "clock angle" of the serve. When you're visualizing a clock to hit a topspin, flat, twister, or flat serve, that's where you're actually guiding the forearm pronation.
Now, in terms of the FH, a wrist hinge effect does contribute to racquet speed. It's not due to wrist flexion, which does not offer a significant contribution. The wrist laying back enables the racquet to produce a motion dependent torque, whose horizontal component is in the opposite direction of the shoulder's internal rotation. This leads to an initial burst of acceleration from the shoulder, as you initiate the forward swing. Theoretically, you maximize this effect when you initiate the forward swing from a racquet face parallel with the ground, i.e. a closed racquet face. HOWEVER, micromanaging this breaks up the loading of the arm during the takeback.
Having said that, there's one technique that enables you to get a near optimal effect with the wrist hinge without having to micromanage the racquet face. If you know how to load shoulder adduction in your stroke, similar to what Roddick and Gonzo do, then you can get the wrist to lay back really well without requiring a parallel racquet face. But, the real advantage to this is that you also have an expanded hitting zone. You can eat balls shoulder-high with an Eastern grip; you can hit balls waist high with a Hawaiwan grip. And your optimal wheelbasket is significantly expanded.
If you want a taste of this, imagine aiming at the ball with your waist. If this is working for you, your takeback should now be much taller, approaching Roddick-size. Then swing away and notice whether you have improved racquet speed.
Forearm pronation influences the "clock angle" of the serve. When you're visualizing a clock to hit a topspin, flat, twister, or flat serve, that's where you're actually guiding the forearm pronation.
Now, in terms of the FH, a wrist hinge effect does contribute to racquet speed. It's not due to wrist flexion, which does not offer a significant contribution. The wrist laying back enables the racquet to produce a motion dependent torque, whose horizontal component is in the opposite direction of the shoulder's internal rotation. This leads to an initial burst of acceleration from the shoulder, as you initiate the forward swing. Theoretically, you maximize this effect when you initiate the forward swing from a racquet face parallel with the ground, i.e. a closed racquet face. HOWEVER, micromanaging this breaks up the loading of the arm during the takeback.
Having said that, there's one technique that enables you to get a near optimal effect with the wrist hinge without having to micromanage the racquet face. If you know how to load shoulder adduction in your stroke, similar to what Roddick and Gonzo do, then you can get the wrist to lay back really well without requiring a parallel racquet face. But, the real advantage to this is that you also have an expanded hitting zone. You can eat balls shoulder-high with an Eastern grip; you can hit balls waist high with a Hawaiwan grip. And your optimal wheelbasket is significantly expanded.
If you want a taste of this, imagine aiming at the ball with your waist. If this is working for you, your takeback should now be much taller, approaching Roddick-size. Then swing away and notice whether you have improved racquet speed.
Thanks for your insight on this.
Why is this? What's the theory?
What does it mean to micromanage this? Can't you just use one of the tricks you've mentioned, like pointing your non-hitting pinky up as that arm extends during the takeback, to establish a habbit? Or do you mean the tricky timing required to correct the racquet face when it's launched from this position?
Having a hard time with this visualization. What part of the waist is being used for aiming?
Why is this? What's the theory?
What does it mean to micromanage this? Can't you just use one of the tricks you've mentioned, like pointing your non-hitting pinky up as that arm extends during the takeback, to establish a habbit? Or do you mean the tricky timing required to correct the racquet face when it's launched from this position?
Having a hard time with this visualization. What part of the waist is being used for aiming?
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Pronation to me on a forehand is meant to align the racketface correctly on every stroke.
I pronate just after contact, like the turnover on a golf swing, so the whole body gets into the rotation.
It might ALLOW me to hit harder, but by itself, adds little to power, much to control.
I pronate just after contact, like the turnover on a golf swing, so the whole body gets into the rotation.
It might ALLOW me to hit harder, but by itself, adds little to power, much to control.
user92626
G.O.A.T.
Hehehe, not so fast, please
"kinetic energy requires you be fluid and whippy"
I can't confirm that. Kinetic energy does not require "a whip".
Kinetic energy is one thing. You have to do everything to increase it. But this is not a guarantee of a powerful stroke.
The other thing is time. You have to condense your kinetic energy into a very short period of time, because you do not need energy - you need power. This step is your "whip" - but it is a separate physical process.
So kinetic energy is one thing, power is another thing.
.
Ah, i see what you mean, Sennoc, especially the last sentence up there. For my purposes, I tried to explained kinetic chain in term of the power you generate from being whippiness. I imagine kinetic chain as a wet towel effect, and one needs to know how to whip a limp wet towel to get power from your hand to the tip of the towel (and have it snap hard at a surface), no? (Am I talking about a different thing altogether?)
If you want more topspin, get your strings behind you and as low to the ground as possible and brush the back of the ball by whipping up high and over your shoulder. You do NOT need pronation to do this.
Pros will also add pronation or suppination to the above using the wrist and forearm, but it is not necessary.
This is just plain false IMO.
If you look CAREFULLY at the photos at contact, you will see the angle is 45-60 degrees as they release the 'educated wrist' in to the ball.
The layback is 90 degrees in the backswing but most often they do not hold it that way thru contact unless they are blocking or punching it back defensively.
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sennoc
Guest
You are right, my previous words weren't precise.
Many pros use 90 degrees between racquet and forearm in the phase before contact. That's because this is a moment when the racquet's head has to increase its energy. At the moment of contact it shouldn't gain energy anymore (energy should be maximal), so 90 degrees angle is not so mportant. You can hold 90 degrees to hit extreme topspin or you can change the angle, make it lower to transfer more energy into horizontal movement, less into rotation. Player's choice.
So, precisely, every welll educated top player has 90 degrees between racquet and forearm at the phase of increasing kinetic energy of racquet's head.
Many pros use 90 degrees between racquet and forearm in the phase before contact. That's because this is a moment when the racquet's head has to increase its energy. At the moment of contact it shouldn't gain energy anymore (energy should be maximal), so 90 degrees angle is not so mportant. You can hold 90 degrees to hit extreme topspin or you can change the angle, make it lower to transfer more energy into horizontal movement, less into rotation. Player's choice.
So, precisely, every welll educated top player
has 90 degrees between racquet and forearm at the phase of increasing kinetic energy of racquet's head.
C
chico9166
Guest
If flexion is a big contributer to racquet head speed on the horizontal, how does one explain inside-out forehands that are crushed. I doubt you'll see any signficant wrist flexion on said shot lines. (at least i haven't seen any on video, maybe one can be found) No, I believe the degree to which the wrist stays/or releases, is more a directional thing. I.E a players desire to get the face more or less aligned to the target. My feeling is you'll see perhaps a little more release on outside/crosscourt shots, and very little, if any, on more inside out shots. Might be wrong about this though.
This is true if the exact same position is used for both. However, that often isn't the case, as you probably realize, and the alignment is different and the wrist angles you refer too are similar. The wrist release is in combination with impact - not always but generally.
Good post.
Who said anything about necessary? If pros are able to impart serious spin with a more flat on swing - that's probably something worth emulating, IMHO.
Federer is the classic exampe of this. His swing is NOT that low to high - I saw this video of hitting right next to his buddy Warinka (who has a traditional finish and it was plainly apparent that he didn't swing that low to high to generate his spin..).
In otherwords if the effect of pronation is adding some spin - I'd like to maximize this effect if that means laying the wrist back more - so be it.
Pete
You are right, my previous words weren't precise.
Many pros use 90 degrees between racquet and forearm in the phase before contact. That's because this is a moment when the racquet's head has to increase its energy. At the moment of contact it shouldn't gain energy anymore (energy should be maximal), so 90 degrees angle is not so mportant. You can hold 90 degrees to hit extreme topspin or you can change the angle, make it lower to transfer more energy into horizontal movement, less into rotation. Player's choice.
So, precisely, every welll educated top player
I agree with all you say sennoc.
The forearm muscles are used with a stretch and relax action, the same we do with an elastic. We have to supinate it to stretches and loads its muscles, but without contractions: we can use (passively or so ) the raquet weight to do that, leaving the raquet head drops and so doing it stretches the forearm. During the swing we have to leave the forearms pronates naturally, again without contractions ( passively or so) , and it will be able to transfer its energy accelerating the raquet.
The power don't comes from the forearm, but from the amount of muscles involved in trunk rotation (a total trunk rotation and right shoulder stretching by the elbow pointing back .. it is required a very solid basement ..).
Ideally, the forearm still quite until the supporting foot is ready to push the body forward and the right shoulder is ready to push the arm ahead.
Then, the supporting leg pushes and helps the right shouder to push the arm ahead, and now it comes finally the time to load the forearm ( at the begin of the forward swing ). During the swing it relaxes and pronates naturally, accelerating the raquet toward the contact.
Ciao
alberto
S
sennoc
Guest
There is no wrist action in a good watershield wiper forehand (or 1hbh topspin). Wrist doesn't move at all! That's very important to understand, because people call forearm action (pronation at forehand and supination at 1hbh) as "wrist action" and... start to use wrist. Serious mistake, you can hurt yourself.
As example, here is my forehand: click 1:38 (I'm in black) and there is NO WRIST in this stroke. I have never had a tennis coach and what you see is a result of my understanding of physics and biomechanics. I am a physicist, I know what I do and I know there is no wrist here.
As example, here is my forehand: click 1:38 (I'm in black) and there is NO WRIST in this stroke. I have never had a tennis coach and what you see is a result of my understanding of physics and biomechanics. I am a physicist, I know what I do and I know there is no wrist here.
Yes sennoc, i find you write many interesting things here. I spend much of my tennis time studying the movements off the court, because to me the understanding is the key to improve. What i've understood is that the wrist mustn't do volountary action, wrist+forearm work as one segment jointed but not locked. The wrist stills in position but relaxed... its right position ( 90 degrees ) is found by manage the raquet weight during the forward swing, and not forcing the 90 degrees position by volountary arm muscles contraction.
At the end of trunk and shoulder rotation, the raquet head would still back and pointing up, and so doing we don't feel or so the raquet weight. Leaving the raquet head drops down (clockwise) at the begin of forward swing, we can feel the weight stretches the forearm (supinates it ..). The volountary action is to allow the raquet drops down and measuring the stretch amount. The 90 degree between hand and forearm are reached by inertia: the right shoulder pushes fast the arm forward, the raquet squares with the forearm naturally due the inertia and sets the wrist in position ..the volountary wrist action is "to feel to be in position" , and eventually suggest a different arm manage to find a better position.
Ciao
Alberto
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sennoc
Guest
Albesca, I see you do what I do... and what Federer does I agree with almost every word you said except one thing: a significant percent (ca 30%) of power in forehand comes from a forearm - it is an active source of energy and dynamics, not a passive energy transfer channel. On the court I show its role in a simple way: I hit a dropped ball by using forearm only. People watching that usually say: "wow, you did not move your arm and your stroke was quite fast :O ".
I teach my son and I never say: "make a big loop", "use wrist" or something like that. I always say: "make your forearm ready". That's what we do by all those things - by inertia, by starting a movement forward when the racquet's head goes back, by blocking our wrist.
To be really precise, wrist moves in forehands - in the last phase of stroke, when you have to dissipate energy as soon and gently as possible. We also use wrist at serves (but in a different way than beginners think), at slices, volleys, stopvolleys, dropshots, but not in topspin forehands or backhands. Oh, no, wait... Wrist is also needed at reversed forehands, but reversed forehands shouldn't be played too much in recreational tennis.
I agree with almost every word you said except one thing: a significant percent (ca 30%) of power in forehand comes from a forearm - it is an active source of energy and dynamics, not a passive energy transfer channel. On the court I show its role in a simple way: I hit a dropped ball by using forearm only. People watching that usually say: "wow, you did not move your arm and your stroke was quite fast :O ".I teach my son and I never say: "make a big loop", "use wrist" or something like that. I always say: "make your forearm ready". That's what we do by all those things - by inertia, by starting a movement forward when the racquet's head goes back, by blocking our wrist.
To be really precise, wrist moves in forehands - in the last phase of stroke, when you have to dissipate energy as soon and gently as possible. We also use wrist at serves (but in a different way than beginners think), at slices, volleys, stopvolleys, dropshots, but not in topspin forehands or backhands. Oh, no, wait... Wrist is also needed at reversed forehands, but reversed forehands shouldn't be played too much in recreational tennis.
Thank you sennoc, i will try to add power with my forehand. At today, i've seen the best results in forehand power adding the right shoulder action.
Plese, i interested in yuur opinion about ( sorry, i can't send a email pm ) -> http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=316503
thanks
Plese, i interested in yuur opinion about ( sorry, i can't send a email pm ) -> http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=316503
thanks
Power Player
Bionic Poster
Yes. Try this. Just go out and hit forehands and focus on keeping your wrist laid back properly and swing easy. If you have the technique down, where your shoulder turn is good and you are not arming the ball, you will notice that simply stepping into the shot and swinging at 50% should result in a very nice down the middle shot with some power on it.
When your racquet angle is right due to your wrist being laid back, you truly then will be "letting the racquet do the work" provided your prep, footwork and shouler turn is all developed.
Albesca, I see you do what I do... and what Federer does
I teach my son and I never say: "make a big loop", "use wrist" or something like that. I always say: "make your forearm ready". That's what we do by all those things - by inertia, by starting a movement forward when the racquet's head goes back, by blocking our wrist.
To be really precise, wrist moves in forehands - in the last phase of stroke, when you have to dissipate energy as soon and gently as possible. We also use wrist at serves (but in a different way than beginners think), at slices, volleys, stopvolleys, dropshots, but not in topspin forehands or backhands. Oh, no, wait... Wrist is also needed at reversed forehands, but reversed forehands shouldn't be played too much in recreational tennis.
Sennoc, assuming i have the upper body and shoulder loaded with my ellbow pointing back (ready to swing forward ), the moment i move forward the arm (shoulder action) i have to load the forearm but .... what happen with the shoulder action ? Shoulder and forearm do a "team-job" accelerating the raquet or is there a "relay race" to completes the kinetic chain, so i have to relax the shoulder and transfer the shot control to the forearm ?
C
chico9166
Guest
Of course you're right Papa, my example was overly simplistic. That was actually my intent.
Just trying to point out, that massive forehands can be hit, while keeping the wrist basically extended through the hitting zone. And that any sort of "wrist release" in the form of flexion, can be a very,very dangerous tip, or visualization. In my mind there is no quicker way to destroy proper swing path/racquet face alignments than to try and straighten out the wrist, in a attempt to increase racquet speed.
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KenC
Hall of Fame
Hey Pete! Federer's forehand is a thing of beauty and it's worthwhile to study a few of the slo mo videos on FYB and on YouTube.
My analysis is that he lays his wrist way back instead of keeping it firm on the take back part of the swing. Then as his arm is accelerating forward, his wrist straightens too causing the racquet head to accelerate even faster. To see this just hold the racquet with your wrist in a laid back position and then straighten your wrist. That is extra acceleration above and beyond what the arm can do. That is the first part of his "whippy" forehand.
The second part of his swing is the spin production. You are right that he doesn't have a large down to up, and to me it seems about a foot or less. He predominantly uses a Windshield Wiper forehand, in which the follow through does what we call checking the watch. In this movement the palm of your hand goes from essentially up at contact to down at the end of the follow through. This is natural pronation. At the point of contact he really whips through the pronation, which causes the racquet head to be moving up at contact but still going forward very fast. Thus, power and topspin.
The hardest part of all this is using the laid back wrist, as he uses it to also guide the ball. Laid back to somewhat laid back for down the line and laid back to straight for crosscourt.
charliefedererer
Legend
In this video Pat Dougherty, "the Serve Doctor" at the Bolletieri camp talks about pronation in this video, but for some reason calls it "forehand leverage": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZqhHdmqSPQ
Anton
Legend
I've come to think of all racket head speed production as a whip-like kinetic chain, wrist is just near the very tip of it. You can keep it firm and you'll get power, but keeping it relaxed and letting it naturally build up and release tension is just more efficient.
The more tension build up points and the more fluidly tension gets transfered the more efficient the stroke - doesn't matter if it is forehand, backhand or serve - they have their own particular details but at the end of the day it all comes down to same principle.
The more tension build up points and the more fluidly tension gets transfered the more efficient the stroke - doesn't matter if it is forehand, backhand or serve - they have their own particular details but at the end of the day it all comes down to same principle.
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Can't think of a name
Rookie
most of the pace at high tennis levels comes from the pronation of the arm, as well as stepping into the ball and hitting it early
corners,
Still working this theory over in my head, and I could be wrong about it. You have two relevant variables during initiation of forward swing. Relative angle of wrist. Relative angle of racquet face. In theory, there's a "perfect" combination of these variables that permits the wrist to lay back optimally from the torque of the racquet.
Yeah, that's no problem. You can establish a general direction for your hitting forearm to rotate during the takeback. If you have a pronated takeback, then your racquet face will stay closed throughout the entire takeback.
The key thing is that your forearm has to continuously rotate during the takeback. If at any point you stop rotating, you start losing the natural kinetic chain of your swing, which throws off your timing as well as takes away power.
Most people interpret "pat the dog", such that they have a supinated takeback. As a result, the racquet face will naturally open up at some point in a full takeback. If they want to "freeze" a certain angle of the racquet face (in order to force a closed racquet face) prior to initiation, they would stop their forearm rotation at some point in their takeback. That messes up their kinetic chain.
Look for a stretch or twist around the waistline. I'm taking this out of context of something else, so it's a bit unclear.
Still working this theory over in my head, and I could be wrong about it. You have two relevant variables during initiation of forward swing. Relative angle of wrist. Relative angle of racquet face. In theory, there's a "perfect" combination of these variables that permits the wrist to lay back optimally from the torque of the racquet.
Yeah, that's no problem. You can establish a general direction for your hitting forearm to rotate during the takeback. If you have a pronated takeback, then your racquet face will stay closed throughout the entire takeback.
The key thing is that your forearm has to continuously rotate during the takeback. If at any point you stop rotating, you start losing the natural kinetic chain of your swing, which throws off your timing as well as takes away power.
Most people interpret "pat the dog", such that they have a supinated takeback. As a result, the racquet face will naturally open up at some point in a full takeback. If they want to "freeze" a certain angle of the racquet face (in order to force a closed racquet face) prior to initiation, they would stop their forearm rotation at some point in their takeback. That messes up their kinetic chain.
Look for a stretch or twist around the waistline. I'm taking this out of context of something else, so it's a bit unclear.
athiker
Hall of Fame
Hehehe, not so fast, please
"kinetic energy requires you be fluid and whippy"
I can't confirm that. Kinetic energy does not require "a whip".
Kinetic energy is one thing. You have to do everything to increase it. But this is not a guarantee of a powerful stroke.
The other thing is time. You have to condense your kinetic energy into a very short period of time, because you do not need energy - you need power. This step is your "whip" - but it is a separate physical process.
So kinetic energy is one thing, power is another thing.
I like to use a physical example - terawatt lasers. How can they work if the impulse of light is so powerful that the first cycle of electric field destroys every atom? That's easy.
First physicists generate energy. Not too much (they want to have their lasers after experiment too). Then they amplify light... At the end they condense previously amplified light into a very, very short impulse (like hundreds of femtoseconds). And voila - you have TERAWATTS from something so small you can put it on a table. Wow.
So:
1. Generate energy.
2. Condense it into a very short impulse.
Unfortunately, many amateur tennis players do the first step only.
Pretty interesting stuff...and kind of jives with how most superior athletes in most sports are considered to have excellent "timing". Power differences can be dramatic between the player that has all the stroke steps right versus the player who can execute them both correctly and simultaneously, or nearly so.
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