Appealing Up

[FedLIKEnot]

Due to some tough matches and playing the 1 line for doubles and singles all season I had a losing record in our just completed 3.0 season. Though so far in prep for mixed I'm playing with 4.0 men and not only holding my own but somehow being a standout in these practice sets. If the rest of the year shapes out how I think it might what's my option for wanting to be bumped at end of year rankings?

 

[GatorTennis]

Due to some tough matches and playing the 1 line for doubles and singles all season I had a losing record in our just completed 3.0 season. Though so far in prep for mixed I'm playing with 4.0 men and not only holding my own but somehow being a standout in these practice sets. If the rest of the year shapes out how I think it might what's my option for wanting to be bumped at end of year rankings?

I don't know why people want to get bumped up so badly. If you're that good, you'll be able to play up a level and get in twice the tennis if you want. Also, you get to play with a 4.0 women in 7.0 mixed. If you can hang with 4.0 guys then you'll be a cinch to get a ton of playing time this summer.

 

[Turbo-87]

I wouldn't put too much stock in your mixed play. It's a totally different game in my opinion.

 

[FedLIKEnot]

I wouldn't put too much stock in your mixed play. It's a totally different game in my opinion.

It's less my mixed play and as of now my ability to hit with and hang in with 3.5 and 4.0. Spring leauge was only my second USTA leauge and it was my shot selection and experience that affected me.

And wanting to get bumped is less an ego thing and more a competition thing. I have been advised to just be a 3.0 if that's what it is and play up. It'll make for a better pairing for combo and mixed. But not sure which lath is best.

 

[Maui19]

I don't know why people want to get bumped up so badly.

The tennis is always better at the higher level.

 

[gmatheis]

appealing up is silly. Stay at 3.0 and play both 3.0 and 3.5 next season.

 

[Turbo-87]

It's less my mixed play and as of now my ability to hit with and hang in with 3.5 and 4.0. Spring leauge was only my second USTA leauge and it was my shot selection and experience that affected me.

And wanting to get bumped is less an ego thing and more a competition thing. I have been advised to just be a 3.0 if that's what it is and play up. It'll make for a better pairing for combo and mixed. But not sure which lath is best.

Well, assuming you are a 3.0 guy playing in mixed 7.0, why not give your captain the awesome advantage of pairing you with a 4.0 lady? If you play beyong your rating, which it sounds like you will, you will be a great weapon as a pair.

 

[Turbo-87]

It's less my mixed play and as of now my ability to hit with and hang in with 3.5 and 4.0. Spring leauge was only my second USTA leauge and it was my shot selection and experience that affected me.

And wanting to get bumped is less an ego thing and more a competition thing. I have been advised to just be a 3.0 if that's what it is and play up. It'll make for a better pairing for combo and mixed. But not sure which lath is best.

Well, assuming you are a 3.0 guy playing in mixed 7.0, why not give your captain the awesome advantage of pairing you with a 4.0 lady? If you play beyond your rating, which it sounds like you will, you will be a great weapon as a pair.

 

[Startzel]

Well, assuming you are a 3.0 guy playing in mixed 7.0, why not give your captain the awesome advantage of pairing you with a 4.0 lady? If you play beyong your rating, which it sounds like you will, you will be a great weapon as a pair.

It's a shame the usta has created this mentality. The goal is to have people play below their actual level.

 

[dgold44]

Appealing up????

Well you can always play tournaments at a higher level.

I play USTA at 4.0 and sometimes I will play a 4.5 tourney if I feel really strong and confident. Right now I think I rather play 3.5 as I have been strongly badly.

 

[g4driver]

The tennis is always better at the higher level.

Not when someone play ups and then appeals up to level they don't belong. Guy doing this are wasting the time of the other player. I am addressing Men's and Women's five court matches here. Women are the absolute worse at this . Happens every spring with our local women. Total ego with many 3.0 men and 3.0 women who do this.

The USTA needs to make a rule prohibiting anyone from playing up to only playing line 2 singles and line 3 doubles, and limiting players playing up to two per match . Stop wasting my time with players who don't belong at the given match level.

I am tired of the "at best average 3.0 guy "who plays up at 3.5, losing every match badly but getting enough games to get bumped to 3.5 where he still gets beat downs, yet the next year selfishly plays up at 4.0 where his Idiotic Captain puts him at line 1 doubles, and waste the time of the 4.0 players. My partner and I were off the court in less than 45 minutes including the ten min warmup.

These clowns have ruined the USTA Flex Leagues playing up.

There is a 3.0 guy at my club who signed up on 6.5 Combo team without the Captain's permission after another 3.0 gave him the number. This 50 year old 3.0 who is brand new to tennis who played up at 3.5 this spring, and who should have self rated at 2.5 - he is that bad. Yet he is already playing up at 3.5. And he is terrible even at 3.0!

Arghhh !

 

[eelhc]

appealing up is silly. Stay at 3.0 and play both 3.0 and 3.5 next season.

+1, Or just play 3.5. If it's an ego thing, having tha A next to your ranking indicating you didn't earn it on the court is probably more embarassing.

A (ego) and D (sandbagger) ratings are silly..

 

[g4driver]

Due to some tough matches and playing the 1 line for doubles and singles all season I had a losing record in our just completed 3.0 season. Though so far in prep for mixed I'm playing with 4.0 men and not only holding my own but somehow being a standout in these practice sets. If the rest of the year shapes out how I think it might what's my option for wanting to be bumped at end of year rankings?

Hope you understand playing Line 1, 2, 3 has absolutely NO bearing on the skill level or ability of your opponents. If you had a losing record at 3.0 in USTA league (regardless of line 1 singles or doubles), you clearly aren't ready to move up IMO. My .02 is desire the skill, not the rating. This is something 90% of 3.0 and 3.5 women at my club simply do not get. All but two of the 3.5 women who wanted to be 4.0 women so badly and who were bumped to 4.0 got their teeth kicked in at 4.0. Losing 100% of league matches at 4.0 wasn't good for the ego and reality sank in for one of my friends. She finally understood what I meant when I told her "Seek the skill, not the rating." A few still don't get it, but the words a much stronger 4.0 female Captain might have helped some with reality and fantasy when she finally told some of them, "Appeal down if you want to play more." This female Captain gets it. I play on her mixed teams and she clearly understands the mentality of weak women playing up. It is very frustrating to her as a female Captain.

There is no rule that a team has to put their best players on Court 1, and IMO, in 20+ years of playing tennis, I find most of the toughest players on Court 2 in Doubles, but sometimes they are at Line 3. If you had a losing record at 3.0, your DNTRP doesn't care. Wins and Losses mean nothing to your rating. Only the average rating of you and your partner vs the expected results of your opponent's average rating.

Please don't even begin to think that somehow you should appeal up to 3.5, then play up at 4.0. This is exactly what I wrote about in my post above. If you truly want to know where you stand do this:

The Beer Buy In Challenge

Find three other 3.5 men within 20 years of your age who are the average 3.5 guys at your facility willing to play three full sets of doubles with them, changing partners after every set. The catch: Everyone brings $25 for the buy in and a 12 pack of cold beer on ice. If you don't put money and beer on it, don't even do it. Fact: money and beer keeps people honest and playing to win.
Play against average guys, the guys you would likely see in a USTA league match.

The guy who wins the most games gets: $60 and two 12 packs (he nets $35), the next guy gets $40 and a 12 pack ( he nets $15), the third place buyer loses his buy in and his beer, and the last place guy loses his buy in and the four of them drink his beer.

Repeat with 4.0 players. If you beat any 4.0, please ask him to appeal down. He probably won't be he should.

I will take this bet with any 4.0 men at any facility all day long and I don't even drink beer, but I do provide it for friends. If you aren't man enough to take my challenge don't be less of a man and play up in a league without manning up to the 'Beer Buy In" first.

 

[goran_ace]

I wouldn't put too much stock in your mixed play. It's a totally different game in my opinion.

Yes. This is why they have mixed exclusive ratings (M) for people who only play mixed. The losing record at any position in real matches at 3.0 is much more indicative of your rating than your practice matches in mixed.

 

[Nostradamus]

I wouldn't put too much stock in your mixed play. It's a totally different game in my opinion.

Agree, mixed doubles is a total joke. LOL. even Melanie oudin won the US open in mixed.

 

[FedLIKEnot]

So a few things, I know the lines don't matter by themselves but my loses have all come against players who were part of a national team last year. Also in practices against the men (we've played three sets with gender only due to no shows, etc.) within my mixed I've held my own or stood out as I said. Again we've talked and they were working on something here and there as I am too since my volleys are my weakest part of my game I'm serving and volley exclusive. Before I make a decision I'm waiting till after mixed and combo to make a choice.

Also against me or that's making me wonder what steps to take is while have a losing record I have 1 strike against me from 3.0 and have had "grieve" attempts as I'm still self rated. So in part it's me trying to find my true level. I know the areas of my game that are weak and I know the areas where I shine and in dubs those areas stand out and power along to be at a 3.5 level (serve, fh, movement, etc). I appreciate the information and feed back and I love the convo as its interesting to hear of different examples and thoughts. I too don't wanna go to 3.5 and get spanked (which I doubt would happen) however I don't wanna be a big fish in a small pond either as it'll stunt my development. This is going on year 2 in tennis for me.

 

[Stefanm]

It's not just wins and losses

Remember that it's not just wins and losses that impact your ratings It's also the scores, the dynamic rating of your opponents and if doubles, your partner. You could lose in three sets to very strong opponents and your dynamic rating could actually go up. Conversely, depending on scores, you could beat a very weak opponent and your dynamic rating could go down.

Just play well and keep improving and your rating will take care of itself

 

[Turbo-87]

It's a shame the usta has created this mentality. The goal is to have people play below their actual level.

If he is rated at a 3.0, what's wrong with pairing him with a 4.0 girl? It's not like he is sandbagging.

 

[Turbo-87]

Also against me or that's making me wonder what steps to take is while have a losing record I have 1 strike against me from 3.0 and have had "grieve" attempts as I'm still self rated. So in part it's me trying to find my true level. I know the areas of my game that are weak and I know the areas where I shine and in dubs those areas stand out and power along to be at a 3.5 level (serve, fh, movement, etc). I appreciate the information and feed back and I love the convo as its interesting to hear of different examples and thoughts. I too don't wanna go to 3.5 and get spanked (which I doubt would happen) however I don't wanna be a big fish in a small pond either as it'll stunt my development. This is going on year 2 in tennis for me.

You are in a good spot after year 2 for sure. You will not get spanked at 3.5. The main thing at 3.0/3.5 is to keep the ball in play because most points will come off of unforced errors. No one will be smacking winners against you on a regular basis. If you solidify your game and keep the ball in play, you will have no problems. The longer the ball is in play, the better your chances are of getting an error and a point. I am definitely not saying to be a pusher, but if you can hit clean high percentage groundstrokes and stay in points, you are golden.

I would highly recommend you read Brad Gilbert's "Winning Ugly." It is the best tennis book I have read and it helped me.

 

[g4driver]

Take my Beer Challenge - vs 3.5 guys and 4.0 guys.

It's simple - money keeps people honest.

 

[onehandbh]

Due to some tough matches and playing the 1 line for doubles and singles all season I had a losing record in our just completed 3.0 season. Though so far in prep for mixed I'm playing with 4.0 men and not only holding my own but somehow being a standout in these practice sets. If the rest of the year shapes out how I think it might what's my option for wanting to be bumped at end of year rankings?

I heard there are a few ATP players also looking to get their rankings bumped up.

They haven't done well in mixed doubles due to playing a seeded team in the early rounds and have a low ranking in singles but they can hold their own when rallying in practice with top 25 players. If they got their singles ranking bumped up from 1734 to 50 it would help a lot.

 

[J_R_B]

Next year you'll have a C rating and won't have to worry about strikes or anything so you can play at your level and play up. I'd recommend registering at both levels and if you are beating everyone too easily at the lower level, then just play up. If you're routinely getting killed at the higher level just play at the lower level. Most likely, I think you'll win most of your matches but competitively at the lower level and lose most but competitively at the higher level so that there is value in playing both.

I would not appeal up because it takes away even the option to go back down if you're not competing at the higher level.

 

[Startzel]

If he is rated at a 3.0, what's wrong with pairing him with a 4.0 girl? It's not like he is sandbagging.

My post wasn't about him. It's about your, "want players who play above their level" mentality.

 

[kevrol]

appealing up is silly. Stay at 3.0 and play both 3.0 and 3.5 next season.

Agreed. Or don't play 3.0 at all next year. If you're that good you should have no trouble finding a spot on a 3.5 team.

 

[Court Karma]

I play whatever court I'm assigned (usually 2 or 3 dbls) and simply try to beat the tar out of my opponents. I played up 4 matches last year and split sets but lost in 3 of those matches. Was slaughtered in the 4th match. Still moved up.

Since moving up to 4.0 I'm batting .500 with most of the losses going to tie-breaks against play-off caliber opponents.

My point is the line you play and the # of wins doesn't seem to matter as much as the quality of your opponent and the competitiveness of your matches.

 

[dragonfruit]

I agree with the other posters. If you are kicking butt in 3.0, enjoy winning and go to nationals/win some trophies, and play up at 3.5. The jump in skill level between 3.5 and 4.0 players can be quite huge.

 

[Court Karma]

I agree with the other posters. If you are kicking butt in 3.0, enjoy winning and go to nationals/win some trophies, and play up at 3.5. The jump in skill level between 3.5 and 4.0 players can be quite huge.

TRUTH!

As a new move up, I find the range of skills at 4.0 to be somewhat daunting. Seeing a lot more heavy top spin, slice serves, and defense. Much more difficult to end points!

 

[g4driver]

Due to some tough matches and playing the 1 line for doubles and singles all season I had a losing record in our just completed 3.0 season.

So a few things, I know the lines don't matter by themselves but my loses have all come against players who were part of a national team last year. Also against me or that's making me wonder what steps to take is while have a losing record I have 1 strike against me from 3.0 and have had "grieve" attempts as I'm still self rated. I too don't wanna go to 3.5 and get spanked (which I doubt would happen) however I don't wanna be a big fish in a small pond either as it'll stunt my development. This is going on year 2 in tennis for me.

So from what you have stated you have been playing tennis two years, you have a losing record from this spring and ALL of your loses were against one team who went to Nationals last year.

These are your words not mine. So here are my questions to you:

1) Did you only play matches against a few teams this spring, one of which was a team who went to Nationals last year? And all of your loses, came against the team that went to Nationals?

2) What was your spring record and how many matches did you play against the team who went to Nationals?

3) How do you know you have a strike, since the USTA doesn't tell player when the get the first two strikes. It seems you are making an assumption here.

4) You wrote "So in part it's me trying to find my true level." I offered you the solution to that question in my Beer Buy in Challenge, so are you afraid to take that challenge?

Before I make a decision I'm waiting till after mixed and combo to make a choice. So in part it's me trying to find my true level. This is going on year 2 in tennis for me.

The Beer Buy In Challenge

Find three other 3.5 players same gender within 20 years of your age who are the average 3.5 player at your facility willing to play three full sets of doubles with them, changing partners after every set. The catch: Everyone brings $25 for the buy in and a 12 pack of cold beer on ice. If you don't put money and beer on it, don't even do it. Fact: money and beer keep people honest and playing to win. Play against average player, the players you would likely see in a USTA league match.

The player who wins the most games gets: $60 and two 12 packs (he nets $35), the next player gets $40 and a 12 pack ( they net $15), the third place finisher loses the $25 buy in and the beer, and the last place player loses their $25 buy in and the four of them drink player #4's beer.

Repeat with 4.0 players. If you beat any 4.0, please ask they to appeal down. They probably won't be they should.

I will take this bet with any 4.0 men at any facility all day long and I don't even drink beer, but I do provide it for friends. If you aren't brave enough to take my challenge don't play up in a league without doing "Beer Buy In" first.

I agree with the other posters. If you are kicking butt in 3.0, enjoy winning and go to nationals/win some trophies, and play up at 3.5. The jump in skill level between 3.5 and 4.0 players can be quite huge.

What part of "I had a losing record in our just completed 3.0 season.", do you and other posters replying in this thread telling the OP to play up or appeal up, isn't connecting? This player isn't kicking butt, but seems to want to play up really badly.

• A losing record does not equal kicking butt in any part of my world or the sober world around me.

There is a time to play up. When you go 17-0 in a season as a self-rated player like a guy I watched last year (he should have self-rated 4.0 but he didn't) or when a Computer rated player goes 13-1 in a season, losing one match to a unbeaten self-rated player 11-9 in TB, but then he wins all five singles match he played at State/ District, including every match against all the self-rated players, yeah, it's time they both played up.

But for you, with your losing record in year two? No I think no. Not until you put your money on the line and challenge three other 3.5 players are also willing to beat money and beer against you.

Want the skill, not the rating.

 

[Bionic slice]

FedLIKEnot, there is nothing wrong with wanting to play better and challenge yourself. Have you tried any ladders, tourneys or participated in drill session for 3.5 is the min level?
I can say, i would like to play up and i know the best way is to not play players at the same level so you might consider playing leaguetennis.com or ultimatetennis.com and play 3.5 and see how you play singles or dubs. Its a good way to measure yourself current level but as others have stated, having a losing record is not the greatest resume to thinking your ready for 3.5 IMO.
I have been asked to play on a team thats a level above and i havent made the jump yet. I really want to make sectional, a short term goal, with nationals being the long term one. Good news, i will reach that reach the 1st sectional birth.
If you are getting captains saying i could use you or trying to recruit you or opponents asking you if your happy, you know you should be ready to make a test run in the USTA ranks. I think FedLIKEnot, if your a top 3.0 player, why not join the top 3.0 team and go for a big playoff run, your get the experience playing with another strong team and if you can start, reach the sectionals or better and win or remain competitive...losing like very close matches or winning easily, you should be ready to get bumped which is the better way to know your close.

 

[FedLIKEnot]

I thought in being clear and honest I would get a sensible and honest answer and advice and I have from some. Look it's hard to get a feel for my game or the season I just had from words on a message board. Yet some want to attack the proposition that record aside I may have a case for moving up or at the least playing up. Does the advice change if I say I just played a 7.0 mixed leauge match with a 3.5 women against a 4.0 man and 3.0 women and we won 6-0 6-1. Sort of backs up my notion that perhaps the record doesn't tell the complete story. And that's all I was getting at.

What happens if your record doesn't justify moving up yet your skills, shot making and the rest does to a point where you could be serviceable as a 3.5. Winning around 50% of matches. Cause as of late I would be willing to bet that over a 14-18 month window at 3.5 I would win no worse the half my matches. And if you feel I am unqualified to make that assumption let's make it abstract and put player A in my place would said hypothetical player be better served doing that verses 3.0 for another year? Simply put I threw out a scenerio that was applicable to myself but could've just as easy have been a generic question.

Also I am not wanting to be a 3.5 just for the ego boost that may come with it cause I assure you none will will come. But rather as I am relatively new to tennis (been playing for only about 14 months) what may be in my best interest for developing my game. It may eat at someone to have a player playing up on there team and so be it. I encountered that at my club when I asked the 3.5 captain if I could PRACTICE with his team before the season even started and he quickly dismissed that as no one played up on his teams. Fast forward to 3 weeks ago he asked me if I wouldn't mind playing on his teams going forward. Which made me curious and lead to this thread. Now take all that and do with it what you will. Again just painting the picture with as much accurate information as I can as to get advice.

 

[g4driver]

FredLikeNot,

My replies are not an attack. It just isn't what you want to hear. It wasn't what the 3.5 guys who I played last year when they played up want to hear. One guys playing up last year hit 13 aces on me in singles and still lost. 1&0. This year he played up again and lost 0&0. A bIg serve is all he has. Block it back and he would fall apart.

You have played tennis 14 months. I gave you an honest and sensible answer from my view as a guy who has played the game in high school, and league and tournament tennis for 30+ years.

I am surrounded with 3.0 and 3.5 players like yourself who want to move up to the next level quickly. Very few are patience enough to spend three seasons at 3.0 or 3.5 and play up every chance they get. I can name twenty women and a dozen guys off top of my head who have gone down the same thing you are doing. They play up, some appeal up. They want that 3.0, 3.5 or 4.0, or 4.5 by their name.

What very few of them do is what I have offered you, and that is get on the court with three other players and put their money where their mouth is.

You don't have to like or take my input as a guy who has played high school and league tennis and who turned down the chance to play tennis at smaller colleges, but please don't come on here and tell anyone you are being attacked because you don't like what you are hearing. I asked you four specific questions and you avoided answered each of them.

I have been asked to play up on 4.5 men's teams for the past two years, yet I refuse and have enough faith in the USTA System to keep my at the correct level.

I've seen your story a hundred times and maybe 10% of players choose my path , staying at their current level and honing their skills. But when they move up they are clearly ready, not just to move to a higher level, but to win at the next level.

Do you find fault in my "Beer Buy In"?
You already have a source of 3.5 guys, so why not step up and get the answers that you tell us you seek.

Best wishes.

 

[g4driver]

And lastly,

How do you think the player who is playing at his level feels when he has to play a player playing up? It sucks for the at level player when he double bagels, or sends the guy playing up packing 0&1. I have done both this year and many players think it is selfish of the guy playing up wasting the time of the at level player, especially when the player playing up is put at 1 singles or 1 doubles. Only a seriously lame Captain would do this, but it happens.

 

[FedLIKEnot]

So from what you have stated you have been playing tennis two years, you have a losing record from this spring and ALL of your loses were against one team who went to Nationals last year.

These are your words not mine. So here are my questions to you:

1) Did you only play matches against a few teams this spring, one of which was a team who went to Nationals last year? And all of your loses, came against the team that went to Nationals?

2) What was your spring record and how many matches did you play against the team who went to Nationals?

3) How do you know you have a strike, since the USTA doesn't tell player when the get the first two strikes. It seems you are making an assumption here.

4) You wrote "So in part it's me trying to find my true level." I offered you the solution to that question in my Beer Buy in Challenge, so are you afraid to take that challenge.

To answer some of these questions:

Yes played tennis around a year and a half to two years now.

Yes all loses were to one team in a three team leauge at the 3.0 level.

1) Answered that above, the answer is yes. And further still most of the matches I lost I was up 2 games or more in the first set and/or lost in tie breaks etc. Which perhaps speaks to the larger ppint maybe I am not match tough enough to hang at 3.5 level. Which I have not said I could or for sure would simply posed a question.

2) Wanting to keep some privacy (cause god knows especially with USTA stuff you can find anyone with less info then I've given on these boards) I'll simply say I lost 2 more matches than I won.

3) Just about my whole team was grieved at some point due to us having a lot of SR players so our captain was emailed who has strikes etc, and I am friends with a member of a team we played and he would blind cc me on his team emails for giggles and I'll just say some team captains take loses really hard and are bitter.

4) I have not your right taken that challenge but instead have had extremely competitive practice matches last few weeks within our mixed team having played 5 practice sets with just the guys with various combinations me being one of the only 3.0 guys on the team and as I've said I've held my own and played at or really close to the level of the rest of the team.

My other recent post in this thread has the rest of my thoughts. Youre words I did agree with on some level, but words in a post cannot paint the picture of the matches or the growth since. I didnt take it as personal as it may have seemed (my fault). But as I said in what I experienced I just wanted to practice with the 3.5 team a little and was told essentially I wasn't good enough for that. Than I beat his #2 singles player in a club tourney 6-4 7-5 and his attitude changed about me. You're making it seem as if it's unfair I even think I should play at 3.5. And in that is the larger issue I feel. Maybe I am wrong perhaps I am seeing your comments and advice from a tainted prisim.

For whatever it is worth at the recommendation of the rest of the guys on my mixed 7.0. If I don't get bumped I will just play 3.5 and 3.0 next year. So next year if I don't get bumped and I likely won't and my friend who is in a similar position don't move up we will be at an advantage to say the least. I'll be using the rest of this year to solve my biggest issue getting match tough. Hope this new info may sooth this topic.

 

[g4driver]

hope that may calm some of your rage in my asking the question.

Trust me kid. I have no rage in typing answers to you as a new tennis player. My blood pressure is currently 90/55, I was curious just how low is was, so I checked. When I am tight on gas and the airport is being engulfed in a Thunderstorm or the visibility in dropping below minimums, there is no rage, no rushing or anxiety. I've been to Iraq and Afghanistan and been shot at. Your keyboard will never raise my BP. You really crack me up. No, all is calm. When I lose an engine on takeoff, again, all is calm. That's how I live my life and keep those in the back of my jet safe until we are safely at the next gate.

Rec tennis is rec tennis, and I don't get paid to play tennis, but I do get asked to play on a lot of teams. You roll your way, and I will roll mine. I seen many, many players take your route and it plays out the same time and time again.

I'm comfortable in my life and game. Maybe in a year or two I will get bumped to 4.5, but I certainly never play up to achieve that level. And if I am bumped, you can be sure I will appeal down like my 4.5 teammates and friends who have appealed back to 4.0

 

[FedLIKEnot]

Please see my edit. I counted to 3 took a few deep breaths and than edited. My apologies, I can admit when I am being stupid.

 

[g4driver]

We are all good FedLikeNot. Thanks for the apology. Just giving my .02 as guy who sees the lure of playing up, but who has also seen the negative for the guys who get to play against those who play up.
There are ways to play better players without playing up and you are doing some of that already.

I've been flying jets for nearly 25 years and played tennis even longer. I've leaned lots from both, but tennis has some of the most illogical decisions I seen by players, much like the that of the FAA.

Try my "Beer Buy In" ,a few times. It has a lot of merit and it is so simple. What part of Northern California are you in ?

 

[FedLIKEnot]

We are all good FedLikeNot. Thanks for the apology. Just giving my .02 as guy who sees the lure of playing up, but who has also seen the negative for the guys who get to play against those who play up.
There are ways to play better players without playing up and you are doing some of that already.

I've been flying jets for nearly 25 years and played tennis even longer. I've leaned lots from both, but tennis has some of the most illogical decisions I seen by players, much like the that of the FAA.

Try my "Beer Buy In" ,a few times. It has a lot of merit and it is so simple. What part of Northern California are you in ?

The Fairfield, Vacaville, Napa area. About halfway between SF and Sacramento.

 

[dragonfruit]

We are all good FedLikeNot. Thanks for the apology. Just giving my .02 as guy who sees the lure of playing up, but who has also seen the negative for the guys who get to play against those who play up.
There are ways to play better players without playing up and you are doing some of that already.

I've been flying jets for nearly 25 years and played tennis even longer. I've leaned lots from both, but tennis has some of the most illogical decisions I seen by players, much like the that of the FAA.

Try my "Beer Buy In" ,a few times. It has a lot of merit and it is so simple. What part of Northern California are you in ?

Your beer challenge is ********. Just pay a teaching pro for a session and he or she will give you a rating. That is what our club does.

 

[g4driver]

Your beer challenge is ********. Just pay a teaching pro for a session and he or she will give you a rating. That is what our club does.

In your opinion. FYI, almost every cub has a Pro who can offer his opinion, and IMO, their opinions are nearly worthless.

Where are Jamarcus Russell, Ryan Leaf, Brady Quinn, Brian Bosworth, and Tony Mandarich now? How many Pro's evaluated them before they were drafted ?

The "Pay the Club Pro" method has been around for years and is highly inaccurate in most cases. I wonder how many "Hey, I have a new 4.0 for you" our club pro has sent to our team Captain, only to be told by the Captain and the team to the Pro "that guy is a 3.5 guy on his his best day"

Paying a pro to get you a rating is noting more than pay a pro for his opinion. In the last ten years, I and the teams I play on, have found a pro's ability to judge a player's ratting to be highly inaccurate. There are plenty of "4.5 Pros" who haven't played a match in 20 years and who are completely out of touch with what an accurate rating is. There are ten self rated players with 2-8 records for every 10-0 Self-Rated player. People complain about sandbaggers, but those who overrate their ability outnumber the sandbaggers 10-1 in my area.

Most men beginning will not self rate 2.5, so they self rate at 3..0 and struggle for years. They get frustrated and they bounce around from one 3.0 team to another and they never figure out It isn't all about lessons, but finding a team with a group of players who work together. It is hard to get better, if you want to better yourself like the OP, but you find yourself surrounded by weaker players, where most people don't challenge you. It sounds like that in his case to me . He is working hard and wants to improve, and he needs the opportunity to play better players. So yes, I discouraged him from playing up, until he knows where he really stands and my beer challenge approach works. You don't have to pay money or beer, but the money and beer keep people honest. It means nothing to him if he plays below average players, that is the reason for the $$ and the beer.

When guys want to join the teams I captain, and the teams Captained by two of the best 4.0 guys in town, they get on the court with other players whether it's singles or doubles to figure out where they stand. We don't charge $$ or beer, but they don't play weak 4.0 players, but they will find out where they stand roughly two hours . My teams will keep putting new member and players on the court vs players with established histories and let the Pros earn their money from drills and lessons.

Your suggestion is no different than the way tennis was before the Self-Rated system was created and that was completely hit or miss, depending if a team needed a ringer and the team got one by a USTA Rater. And most Pro's overrate guys, instead of giving them accurate feedback.

 

[FedLIKEnot]

Your beer challenge is ********. Just pay a teaching pro for a session and he or she will give you a rating. That is what our club does.

Not sure I like my new found pattern of agreeing with g4driver but the pros at my club aren't that great. It's a Cliff Drysdale club so it's ways hit and miss but my pros if you asked them what there ranking is or would be have no idea. We have one pro who is likely a 4.5 and another who is a 4.0 at best it all depends. And while they give advice it's hard to see all the strokes in a clinic or even a private lesson. As my weakness is experience getting strategy from them is terrible as they can't talk to that at times. Example I recently took a clinic and most of us in there were 3.5 or better and everyone is gearing up for mixed. The Pro goes into this speech about always go cross court until you can come to net than go after the women. And to me at least that's flawed. If I am stretched in the ally or wider it may he better to go at women if she's at net, etc.

And as has been said most of the pros if they're from overseas don't grasp the rating setup and of they do get it don't know what is what.

 

[Max G.]

I agree with some of the advice given here but not all of it.

Don't do the beer and money thing. Money on the line makes people into dishonest jerks.

But don't rely on mixed doubles results for much at all. Focus on your singles results, or on doubles results with rated partners.

If you really are a 3.5 and not a 3.0, within a season or two your rating will catch up. Meanwhile, why not keep playing at 3.0? It's not like you're missing out on competition there, you said you didn't even have a winning record! Focus on your game. When your GAME gets to the point where you have solid 3.5 play day in and day out, your record will follow (you'll start winning all or almost all of your 3.0 matches) and then your rating will follow and you'll get bumped up.

Pay attention to *results*. Play 3.0 leagues or tournaments. If you're winning all or almost all of them, you might be a 3.5. If your win percentage is below 70%, you're probably not underrated. If you really want to, then play up, but pay attention to results again - if you're winning less than 30% of your matches at that level, you probably don't belong there, and you should stop wasting those players' time.

And don't get misled by thinking about how well you play "on a good day". Sure, "on a good day" you might play like a 3.5. And on a good day the 3.5s might be 4.0s, and the 4.0s might be 4.5s, and so on. Think about how you play *on a bad day*. Once you can honestly say that even on a bad day, you're not worried about losing to any 3.0... then you need to move up. But don't focus on the good days. Everyone thinks that they're underrated when they're having a good day.

 

[g4driver]

Max G,

Some players call there own shots out in local leagues, playoffs, State and Sectionals , even when the opponents don't call the ball out.

Beer and money don't affect everyone the same. I think I get where he is coming from. I am guessing he is a stronger player on a weaker team. The quickest way to figure out where you stand is to play singles against three or four of the good players and play doubles against three three other players switching partners each set.

My guess is FedLikeNot will figure it out - he seems sharp enough from what I can tell .

 

[tennis4me]

I wouldn't put too much stock in your mixed play. It's a totally different game in my opinion.

Agreed. Also, there are a lot of special rules that apply to mixed-exclusive ratings (M-rating). For example, players with M rating must self-rate if he/she were to play in non-mixed Adult division. M rating is also subject to NTRP grievance (unlike the C rating), etc.

USTA has a lot of FAQ questions related to this.

http://www.usta.com/Adult-Tennis/USTA-League/frequently_asked_questions/

 

[wings56]

I think the bump UP mentality is absurd. If you're as good as you think you are there will be no issues playing on a team that is a higher level.

 

[g4driver]

I think the bump UP mentality is absurd. If you're as good as you think you are there will be no issues playing on a team that is a higher level.

The problem is many people at 3.0/3.5/4.0 think they are much better than than they actually are. When the really good players at 4.5/5.0 tend to underrate themselves, and collide in matches versus those overrated 4.0 players who decide to play up at 4.5, it is somewhat comical.

 

[wings56]

The problem is many people at 3.0/3.5/4.0 think they are much better than than they actually are. When the really good players at 4.5/5.0 tend to underrate themselves, and collide in matches versus those overrated 4.0 players who decide to play up at 4.5, it is somewhat comical.

This is so true. I think my entire local league is made up of these... just because you can control a point or two doesn't mean you belong at that level.

 

[heninfan99]

Just play up.

 

[heninfan99]

In my neck of the woods most everyone tries to play down a level in hopes to get to the playoffs. Only one or two strange people try to protest their ranking upwards.

This is so true. I think my entire local league is made up of these... just because you can control a point or two doesn't mean you belong at that level.

 

[g4driver]

This is so true. I think my entire local league is made up of these... just because you can control a point or two doesn't mean you belong at that level.

I have found great solace as a 4.0 who knows his place. You nailed it with your last sentence.

Yesterday, I played doubles with very mature 5.0 24 year old guy. Great doubles partner and lot of fun.

Being a 4.0 is great place if you want to play a lot of league matches. I've been taken great care of by 4.5 and 5.0 guys around town, first as a 3.5, and later at 4.0. I don't ever ask them to hit, but I always appreciate it when they call and ask if I can hit with them. Last year, when two solid 4.5 guys called me and asked if I could use them on my 7.5 team, I knew life was good.

 

[schmke]

Somewhat related to this topic, I looked at some stats on bump ups and if the player played up or not. The conclusion is that a lot of players that get bumped up do play up, but you certainly don't have to play up to do so. Further, some players that play up and are bumped up get the bump in spite of playing up as their have better results in their at-level matches.

See http://computerratings.blogspot.com/2015/07/do-i-have-to-play-up-to-be-bumped-up-in.html