Ask a Coach - Round 2

Ash_Smith

Legend
@anubis

I don't know enough about NTRP tennis to be too specific on the vagaries in levels, what I can say is that the closer you get to elite level tennis the more it becomes about creating and converting opportunities. At a lower level consistency wins the day and as Balla says, will take you so far, there comes a time however when you have to open to taking the ball on a little more - recognising when to do this key as it may not be as simple as just waiting for a ball to bounce on the service line, it's about sensing when you are taking control, or the opponent is slightly out of position and so on.
 

onehandbh

G.O.A.T.
Footwork question (I think?) on running/wide forehands and backhands that I want to his crosscourt.

When I try to hit crosscourt forehands on balls that I am pulled wide on, I sometimes struggle to get my body behind it and arm it more, resulting in a weaker shot that isn't heavy enough. Should I try to position my feet/body more angled to the left? (I am a righty).

On the backhand crosscourt, when pulled wide, should I try the same thing? Sometimes I struggle to hit it angled enough crosscourt? Or is this a matter of getting my body/torso closer to the ball? (for topspin crosscourt)

Also, inside out forehands are easier for me to hit. Inside-in forehands off of an opponents crosscourt shot are harder for me, probably b/c it requires change directions on the ball.
 

Ash_Smith

Legend
@onehandbh

On wide balls where you don't have time to get set up with your body behind the ball I would suggest trying to employ a 'mogul step' or a 'flow step'.

The mogul step allows you to switch the direction the feet are facing during the swing in order to recover more efficiently whilst maintaining racquet speed, but the ball is struck whilst in the air, the flow step is similar but has the ball being struck off the outside foot and therefore may be easier to control balance during...

Mogul
Flow
 

onehandbh

G.O.A.T.
Thanks!

I think use the mogul step sometimes but not really on purpose. Just sort of happens. I never knew what it was called. I don't think anyone ever taught it to me. Just sort of do sometimes naturally, I guess?

I'll try to consciously practice using it.

On the backhand side, would you recommend taking one last giant step to hit wide shots crosscourt?

@onehandbh

On wide balls where you don't have time to get set up with your body behind the ball I would suggest trying to employ a 'mogul step' or a 'flow step'.

The mogul step allows you to switch the direction the feet are facing during the swing in order to recover more efficiently whilst maintaining racquet speed, but the ball is struck whilst in the air, the flow step is similar but has the ball being struck off the outside foot and therefore may be easier to control balance during...

Mogul
Flow
 

Ash_Smith

Legend
On the backhand side, would you recommend taking one last giant step to hit wide shots crosscourt?

Yes, you can flow/mogul through a 2 hander reasonably easily, but I assume from your name that isn't you! It's harder for a single hander as it requires hitting off the outside foot, which most 1 handers find tougher. Your other option is to step right across into a wide closed stance and hit the slice before recovering out (turning away from the court) - you can see Rafa do this fairly regularly.
 

Erlang

Rookie
I'm not particularly au fait with your NTRP levels, so this response is making certain assumptions about relative skill levels. Slice backhands need not be a hindrance in dubs and in many situations can be advantageous. Having the ability to change the ball flight and shape the ball with the slice allows you quite a few good tactical options. The short angle slice cross court from the Ad side for example is a great return of serve or rally ball as it tends to split the opposition apart. Going deep with a bit more "air-time" from that side will give you time to approach. If the opposition volleyer is looking to poach then the "in-to-out" slice down the tramline can help keep them honest, or, weirdly hitting a slightly floaty cross court slice that will tempt them to poach is often very effective as the slice ball reacts differently off the strings - it tends to want to leave the strings downwards and frequently volleyers struggle to redirect this spin and often volley into the net because of it. If you can really drive the slice and keep it lower to the net in general rallies, there's no reason it can't be hugely effective in dubs.
Thanks for the response

This actually ties into another question. Very often I see opponents misplay my slices even if they are very slow and net them. I've done it a lot myself as well. What's the proper way to volley against that shot?
 

johndagolfer

Professional
Hi,

I have two questions. One for myself and one for a situation my kids are running into.

For me it deals with my one-handed backhand and keeping sight of the ball. I am right handed and left eyed dominate. For the life of me I cannot stay focused on the ball (I know eventually I will lose sight of it due to the limits of the human eye). So often what happens is I am either late, or I'll shank. For my forehand I have no problems like this whatsoever. I have tried turning my head toward the ball and preparing earlier. Nothing helps.

For my kids.

I've seen this so often in college so I guess I am not sure how this will change for high schoolers. I find in doubles that a common theme is whoever messes up from the baseline first and hits it out or too close to the netman loses the point. Sometimes these rallies can been 15 to 20 balls long. The netman will be doing a scoot over, but never a fully committed aproach. Like I said earlier, I see this in a ton of women's college matches. So, besides teaching them to both come forward, which I don't think is feasible in this case, is the only suggestion selective poaching?

Thanks!
 

Ash_Smith

Legend
Thanks for the response

This actually ties into another question. Very often I see opponents misplay my slices even if they are very slow and net them. I've done it a lot myself as well. What's the proper way to volley against that shot?

It's a fairly common problem.

As I said before, the thing to remember is that the slice ball will want to deflect at a slight downward angle off the strings (you can see this effect illustrated if you hit against a wall - hit topspin and you will see the ball 'jump' slightly in an upward trajectory as it rebounds, hit slice and you will see it rebound slightly downwards.

Remembering that, your job against the slice when volleying is to counter that spin, which will probably require you to open the strings slightly more that you would think necessary.
 

Ash_Smith

Legend
Hi,

I have two questions. One for myself and one for a situation my kids are running into.

For me it deals with my one-handed backhand and keeping sight of the ball. I am right handed and left eyed dominate. For the life of me I cannot stay focused on the ball (I know eventually I will lose sight of it due to the limits of the human eye). So often what happens is I am either late, or I'll shank. For my forehand I have no problems like this whatsoever. I have tried turning my head toward the ball and preparing earlier. Nothing helps.

For my kids.

I've seen this so often in college so I guess I am not sure how this will change for high schoolers. I find in doubles that a common theme is whoever messes up from the baseline first and hits it out or too close to the netman loses the point. Sometimes these rallies can been 15 to 20 balls long. The netman will be doing a scoot over, but never a fully committed aproach. Like I said earlier, I see this in a ton of women's college matches. So, besides teaching them to both come forward, which I don't think is feasible in this case, is the only suggestion selective poaching?

Thanks!

@johndagolfer - I'll do this in 2 parts - dubs first...

Generally this happens because the net player (and this is true of pretty much all dubs aside from elite level stuff) generally hangs around too near their tramlines and doesn't actually get involved in the play - or at least put themselves in a position where they can be a nuisance to the opposition. They try and guard the tramlines to avoid the pass, but actually that happens pretty infrequently - certainly way less than most people think.

So, this actually becomes about positioning the net man correctly. I have been privileged enough to learn most of my doubles stuff from Louis Cayer, so most of what I say comes from him! The servers partner should start with their outside foot in the centre of the service box and then step on the bounce and split in the contact having moved forwards relative to the serve (ideally they'll know the serve direction beforehand, if not they'll have to react). The diagram below shows this...

doubles_volley.jpg


You can see how on a 'T' serve the partner is coming right across to the centre line in order to cover the angles of return (the risk of being passed in the tramlines is very slim at this point if they are a competent volleyer - one diagonal step has it covered). This is not even for poaching, this is just basic positioning - if the poach is pre-planned then the partner would cross the centre-line to make the poach.

Put your netman in better positions and see how effective they become - a competent netman, using these base positions can cover 2/3's of the court.
 
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Ash_Smith

Legend
@johndagolfer

Your vision question is interesting. I too am right-hand, left-eye dominant, but have never noticed it being a major problem. Have you had a eye check-up where they test your peripheral vision as well as your focal vision?
 

Fintft

G.O.A.T.
@Bender
I agree with you, everything is done beforehand so you've predetermined what will happen to the way that ball is hit at contact. The time the ball spends on the strings is way to short to make any changes while the ball is on the strings. However I do not think that is what @S&V-not_dead_yet was implying. Maybe his way of explaining it wasn't completely accurate but I did not get "make contact with the ball then turn the knob" from his statement. But I might be wrong :-D

I can not believe you guys that 2000+ posts in the other thread weren't enough on this subject, but thank you Balla, it makes perfect sense!
 

Fintft

G.O.A.T.
@anubis
Are we talking about weak era or strong era 4.0's? :D

Anyways being serious now, the higher in level you get to the more aggressive players will play. As a junior I remember a number of players dropped off the ranking going from U14 to U16 age category. They won in the 14's by waiting more for their opponents errors but that tactic no longer worked against the bigger, stronger and older players because power and aggression along with control blended together.
So yes it definitely plays a large part. Even if you watch junior girls and how hard they hit the ball especially the top ones, playing only the percentages doesn't work.

A good body of work to look into is Craig O'Shannessy and Brain Game Tennis about what he says regarding first strike tennis. Even though he only analyzes professional matches, his findings hold true for lower levels as well, with of course slightly different statistical outcomes.


Myself I have to do the opposite and tune down the first strike tennis lessons.

But after listening to my girl coach and as a result been sidelined three weeks with a knee problem, I think I'll stick to first strike tennis, at least during the indoor, hard court season and leave consistency and longer rallies for clay...

100kgs +/230 Lbs mind you and 1.88 or 6'2"
 

3kids

Rookie
@Ash_Smith and/or @tennis_balla
Thanks for taking the time to do this. I coach my son who just turned 13 y.o. now. 2 questions:

1. Serve--any suggestions/tips/drills to improve legs extension/explosion and front leg landing? My son has good technique with great coiling, loading, racquet drop, etc. The final piece is leg extension which can be better. Or is this just a function of age and not being strong enough yet?

2. Two handed backhand--tips/drills to improve the upper arm extension through contact. Been working on the bent/straight arm 2HBH that John Yandell refers to. He's able to do it with hand and racquet feeding but not so much during live ball. Is it just a matter of repetition or do you have some drills to suggest?

Thanks!
 
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tennis_balla

Hall of Fame
@Ash_Smith and/or @tennis_balla
Thanks for taking the time to do this. I coach my son who just turned 13 y.o. now. 2 questions:

1. Serve--any suggestions/tips/drills to improve legs extension/explosion and front leg landing? My son has good technique with great coiling, loading, racquet drop, etc. The final piece is leg extension which can be better. Or is this just a function of age and not being strong enough yet?

2. Two handed backhand--tips/drills to improve the upper arm extension through contact. Been working on the bent/straight arm 2HBH that John Yandell refers to. He's able to do it with hand and racquet feeding but not so much during live ball. Is it just a matter of repetition or do you have some drills to suggest?

Thanks!

In terms of the serve is could be a strength issue, it could be where he's making contact with the ball that doesn't allow him to execute the way he should. If you could take a video of your son serve, just a quick clip, and post it that would help a lot.

Regarding your second question about the backhand, again going back to video you could video tape your son and compare his backhands during feeding and during live ball drills and spot the differences together, watch it with him. Video works great and doesn't lie. If you have an iPhone the slow-mo option is amazing for this.
Having said that, the biggest difference in feeding and live ball is during live ball the balls are hardly ever ideal. Feeding be it with a racket or hand is more of a controlled environment, which is why your son is able to better execute on his shots when being fed balls. Live ball and matches is of course the next level up.
It all comes down to having him play more live ball than getting fed balls from the basket. Let him struggle, he'll figure it out. It is about repetition and being able to do what you have been taught during drilling in a "match" situation. Just make sure he sticks to what is right in terms of technique, whether the outcome at first is good or bad. The use of video will allow him and you to spot the difference and where he's failing between the two.

The most common mistake is contact point, reading the ball better and proper body positioning (footwork).
Like I said, during feeding its more predictable while in a live ball scenario you sometimes have to improvise. The reason the good players look like they know exactly where the ball is going and where to hit it is because they have a wealth of data in their head, otherwise known as experience, so their brain recognizes patterns and situations quickly and effectively. So yes, repetition and lots of match play.
 
Ok sorry seems that I maybe misread that and your grip isn't as extreme as I thought.

Where you make contact is a large part of it, so yea definitely be more aware of your contact point and notice where you're making contact with the majority of your mid-court shots. Another thing you could try, considering you hit with a western grip, is hit those mid-court shots semi-open or open stance only if you don't already. That grip doesn't really like neutral stances and hates closed stance. Its doable but not every effective or efficient.
A semi-open or open stance on the shorter balls will allow you to open up your body more and hit those shorter balls in a more natural way and something pros with more extreme grips do as well on those shots.
Come up to the ball, load in an open stance and rip it.
Great, I'll give it a go. Thanks!
 
D

Deleted member 120290

Guest
I see 120, 130mph being thrown around a lot casually. I'm wondering if these guys actually attended a real pro match to realize how fast a real 120mph serve is.
 

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
@Bender
I agree with you, everything is done beforehand so you've predetermined what will happen to the way that ball is hit at contact. The time the ball spends on the strings is way to short to make any changes while the ball is on the strings. However I do not think that is what @S&V-not_dead_yet was implying. Maybe his way of explaining it wasn't completely accurate but I did not get "make contact with the ball then turn the knob" from his statement. But I might be wrong :-D

After going through 40 pages of "catch/hold/absorb" contesting collo's claim about action during dwell time, you'd think I'd be more careful in my wording!

You are correct and it was bad wording on my part. My intent was to compare what I've been picking up recently on the FH and try to apply it to the BH.

Sorry for the confusion.
 

Dragy

Legend
Before this thread gets completely derailed...
@Ash_Smith @tennis_balla guys can you please give me some thoughts on the following related issues:
- Tend to approach the ball in a way I hit it at the peak of bounce. Ingrained from years ago when hit a flattish slappish forehand. Face lots of semi-lobs, and some weaker shorter, but still bouncy shots. Try to hit former on the rise, to some success, but with latter almost cannot make myself wait for them to get down a bit but step in and find myself dealing with shoulder/head hight contact. I fought another issue when I got caught off-guard by short balls hanging behind the baseline and moving to them too late... Seem to have resolved, but possibly am too keen to rush forward to any short-bouncing ball (even if it's obviously not close enough to be there in time to hit on the rise).
- On FH side (as video shows) tend to drop the racquet drop :p. I do the unit turn, split hands, but here's the moment I have to start uncoiling - no time to straighten arm and lower my racquet into Pat-the-dog or whatever position. It's very noticeable when facing faster deeper shots - maybe I should position deeper behind baseline contrary to my current "just behind and step in to meet the ball"? But since ingrained to some extent, I use same timing now for slow shots, even "freezing", holding the before-PTD position with tension, it seems.

I know simple responses like more practice for better anticipation and recognition, practice and force good contact point (step in on slower balls, take some time and space vs harder hitters), etc. Still would appreciate some thoughts which might help me "just do it" :D
 

Ash_Smith

Legend
@Ash_Smith and/or @tennis_balla
Thanks for taking the time to do this. I coach my son who just turned 13 y.o. now. 2 questions:

1. Serve--any suggestions/tips/drills to improve legs extension/explosion and front leg landing? My son has good technique with great coiling, loading, racquet drop, etc. The final piece is leg extension which can be better. Or is this just a function of age and not being strong enough yet?

2. Two handed backhand--tips/drills to improve the upper arm extension through contact. Been working on the bent/straight arm 2HBH that John Yandell refers to. He's able to do it with hand and racquet feeding but not so much during live ball. Is it just a matter of repetition or do you have some drills to suggest?

Thanks!

@tennis_balla has already made some great points on this, but I'll just add my 2 pence worth...

1) As Balla said, without video it is hard to judge whether this is an actual issue or a perceived issue, but if it is something you really feel needs work then there are things you can do. Generally these could involve putting a small object on the baseline in front of him when he serves (a small baton of wood or a net stick or similar for example), which he has to clear and land in front of. Alistair McCaw does a lot of work using a gym step and having players either start on it and land off, or the other way around in order to help build explosiveness and also ti help improve balance (hold the finish!).

Either way, timing is still key above power/explosiveness - better to have less "explode" with better timing than the other way around!

2) I too am a big 'fan' of the bent/straight combo and it is generally my go-to recommendation for most male players. I like players to hold the non-don arm straight through contact and into the extension phase (a la the legend Marat Safin)...

topper-safin.jpg


I will generally ask the player to hold this finish position as a checkmark to ensure what happened through contact was appropriate, before relaxing down and recovering the racquet.

Balla makes a great point about the difference with fed ball and live ball too - If you've read much of posting on here you'll know I am a huge advocate for practice variability - that is either mixing the learning of new skills with established skill (e.g. hitting a mixture of slice backhand and topspin backhand) or ensuring that the skill to be learned is challenged in a variety of situations - positions, speeds, flights etc.

The reason he can do it when hand fed but not so well in live ball is he likely hasn't matched the anticipation/receiving skills to the new technical skills - largely because he hasn't had too! So, either add more variety to your hand/single feeds or work more with him live ball - and keep that checkpoint in mind!

All the best with it.
 

atp2015

Hall of Fame
I see 120, 130mph being thrown around a lot casually. I'm wondering if these guys actually attended a real pro match to realize how fast a real 120mph serve is.

Yes, they just fly back and forth in a pro match. The balls appear to travel a lot faster when you are watching from outside than how it is to react when you are playing. The body is able to react a lot quicker than we realize. Agreed,its difficult to keep moving to it for a long time.
 

Captain Ron

Professional
@Ash_Smith, @tennis_balla
Any advice on how to be more consistent mentally when winning for an attacking doubles player?
I'm a 3.5 and play mostly doubles. I find I play my best when the score is close or my team is down. Usually, I use the risk of losing to get myself up for points or have decided we are going to lose and I may as well go for my shots.
I've come back from 2-5, 2-4 and 0-3 down too many times for this to be a coincidence.
Unfortunately, I often fail to close teams out when up 4-0, 5-3, etc...
From what I can tell, I focus on the point and play my style when down. When up, I seem to tell myself I just need to hold on to win and go into grinder mode just a little bit (not my style and doesn't work well :( )
I have a very strong serve, excellent net play and overheads, ground strokes are ok but not consistent to win long rallies).
Thinking I will try mentally telling myself a different score. Any suggestions?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Ash_Smith

Legend
Before this thread gets completely derailed...
@Ash_Smith @tennis_balla guys can you please give me some thoughts on the following related issues:
- Tend to approach the ball in a way I hit it at the peak of bounce. Ingrained from years ago when hit a flattish slappish forehand. Face lots of semi-lobs, and some weaker shorter, but still bouncy shots. Try to hit former on the rise, to some success, but with latter almost cannot make myself wait for them to get down a bit but step in and find myself dealing with shoulder/head hight contact. I fought another issue when I got caught off-guard by short balls hanging behind the baseline and moving to them too late... Seem to have resolved, but possibly am too keen to rush forward to any short-bouncing ball (even if it's obviously not close enough to be there in time to hit on the rise).
- On FH side (as video shows) tend to drop the racquet drop :p. I do the unit turn, split hands, but here's the moment I have to start uncoiling - no time to straighten arm and lower my racquet into Pat-the-dog or whatever position. It's very noticeable when facing faster deeper shots - maybe I should position deeper behind baseline contrary to my current "just behind and step in to meet the ball"? But since ingrained to some extent, I use same timing now for slow shots, even "freezing", holding the before-PTD position with tension, it seems.

I know simple responses like more practice for better anticipation and recognition, practice and force good contact point (step in on slower balls, take some time and space vs harder hitters), etc. Still would appreciate some thoughts which might help me "just do it" :D

@Dragy For you first point I would suggest a couple of things - it appears from your text that you have an issue around anticipation and then judgement (of speed, spin, bounce etc) which is leading you position yourself more for the bounce of the ball than for the path it will take afterwards?

I would suggest to try and find a cooperative partner you can rally with (who will mix up their shots for speed, depth and height etc) and try firstly with only playing inside the baseline - you are not allowed to step behind the line, only to play in front of it. You will have to play balls on the rise, half-volley etc. Secondly, play some rallies only from behind the baseline, you are not allowed to cross in front of it (this is why a cooperative partner is important - you don't want them just hitting drop shots all the time!) - you may have to play some balls on the stretch out in front and low and some you may still have to back up from. You're goal in both practices is to "protect your contact point" - which ideally will be somewhere between hip and shoulder height - maybe keep a tally in each practice of how many in a row you can protect in this way.

By going to these 2 extremes to exaggerate the problem you have it should help you to find the middle ground.

Oh, and I think by solving problem 1, problem 2 may look after itself!

Good luck.
 

Ash_Smith

Legend
@Ash_Smith, @tennis_balla
Any advice on how to be more consistent mentally when winning for an attacking doubles player?
I'm a 3.5 and play mostly doubles. I find I play my best when the score is close or my team is down. Usually, I use the risk of losing to get myself up for points or have decided we are going to lose and I may as well go for my shots.
I've come back from 2-5, 2-4 and 0-3 down too many times for this to be a coincidence.
Unfortunately, I often fail to close teams out when up 4-0, 5-3, etc...
From what I can tell, I focus on the point and play my style when down. When up, I seem to tell myself I just need to hold on to win and go into grinder mode just a little bit (not my style and doesn't work well :( )
I have a very strong serve, excellent net play and overheads, ground strokes are ok but not consistent to win long rallies).
Thinking I will try mentally telling myself a different score. Any suggestions?

To be fair you kind of answered your own question here - "From what I can tell, I focus on the point and play my style when down. When up, I seem to tell myself I just need to hold on to win and go into grinder mode just a little bit"

The simple explanation is that your focus shifts from an area where it is helpful (internal, present time, task relevant)to somewhere which is not helpful (external, future projection, off task) - it looks like you attach a lot of importance to winning?

Elite mental toughness is being able to accept your current thoughts/emotions and still focussing on the demands of performance. In your case you allow your thoughts about winning to cloud your focus on the demands of the task - so as you find a change in thinking appearing, ask yourself "is this helpful?" - if the answer is no, then you have to park it to one side and find a way to bring yourself back to the present and the demands of the task at hand. This is where routines come into play - a routine is simply a process you attach your mental skills to - like framework if you will and your mental skills are things like imagery, positive self-talk, breathing, etc

You got to being 4-0, 5-3 up by doing certain things - your job is to continue to do them until such time as they fail to work because the opposition has figured them out, not to stop doing them because you're nearly at the finish line :)
 

maleyoyo

Professional
Hello Coaches
I'm a much better hitting partner than a match player and my excuse is that I always try to play with better players. As an example, if I play a practice match with a player and lose 4-6, 4-6, the same player would crush me 6-2, 6-1 in a tournament. A player I beat 6-4 6-4 during practice would beat me with the same score in a league match
When I play a close game I usually lose because I don't play the big points very well. I can't finish when I'm up 40-30 on my serve yet tougher to beat when I'm down 40-30 on their serve.
I think the main issue is my confidence with the serve as I tend to have 2 second serves when i'm tight. The closer the score, the lower my first serve percentage. My first flat serve percentage is generally higher on the deuce court than the ad (both practice and match), and my first serve percentage is about 25% lower during matches. Among other things I just can't seem to bring what I gain in practice to a real match, especially the serve.
Fitness and mental toughness are contributing factors as well. All of these issues are huge and I understand that they are long term goals, but are there any immediate/more specific short term solutions that you would suggest?
I don't have a coach and just a recreational player.`I take lesson occasionally to work primarily on my technique. My instructor is great with technique and fundamentals but not much help in the mental department.
 
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3kids

Rookie
In terms of the serve is could be a strength issue, it could be where he's making contact with the ball that doesn't allow him to execute the way he should. If you could take a video of your son serve, just a quick clip, and post it that would help a lot.

Regarding your second question about the backhand, again going back to video you could video tape your son and compare his backhands during feeding and during live ball drills and spot the differences together, watch it with him. Video works great and doesn't lie. If you have an iPhone the slow-mo option is amazing for this.
Having said that, the biggest difference in feeding and live ball is during live ball the balls are hardly ever ideal. Feeding be it with a racket or hand is more of a controlled environment, which is why your son is able to better execute on his shots when being fed balls. Live ball and matches is of course the next level up.
It all comes down to having him play more live ball than getting fed balls from the basket. Let him struggle, he'll figure it out. It is about repetition and being able to do what you have been taught during drilling in a "match" situation. Just make sure he sticks to what is right in terms of technique, whether the outcome at first is good or bad. The use of video will allow him and you to spot the difference and where he's failing between the two.

The most common mistake is contact point, reading the ball better and proper body positioning (footwork).
Like I said, during feeding its more predictable while in a live ball scenario you sometimes have to improvise. The reason the good players look like they know exactly where the ball is going and where to hit it is because they have a wealth of data in their head, otherwise known as experience, so their brain recognizes patterns and situations quickly and effectively. So yes, repetition and lots of match play.

@tennis_balla has already made some great points on this, but I'll just add my 2 pence worth...

1) As Balla said, without video it is hard to judge whether this is an actual issue or a perceived issue, but if it is something you really feel needs work then there are things you can do. Generally these could involve putting a small object on the baseline in front of him when he serves (a small baton of wood or a net stick or similar for example), which he has to clear and land in front of. Alistair McCaw does a lot of work using a gym step and having players either start on it and land off, or the other way around in order to help build explosiveness and also ti help improve balance (hold the finish!).

Either way, timing is still key above power/explosiveness - better to have less "explode" with better timing than the other way around!

2) I too am a big 'fan' of the bent/straight combo and it is generally my go-to recommendation for most male players. I like players to hold the non-don arm straight through contact and into the extension phase (a la the legend Marat Safin)...

topper-safin.jpg


I will generally ask the player to hold this finish position as a checkmark to ensure what happened through contact was appropriate, before relaxing down and recovering the racquet.

Balla makes a great point about the difference with fed ball and live ball too - If you've read much of posting on here you'll know I am a huge advocate for practice variability - that is either mixing the learning of new skills with established skill (e.g. hitting a mixture of slice backhand and topspin backhand) or ensuring that the skill to be learned is challenged in a variety of situations - positions, speeds, flights etc.

The reason he can do it when hand fed but not so well in live ball is he likely hasn't matched the anticipation/receiving skills to the new technical skills - largely because he hasn't had too! So, either add more variety to your hand/single feeds or work more with him live ball - and keep that checkpoint in mind!

All the best with it.

Thanks for the responses! We are already doing most of the exercises you both suggested for BH and serve. Liked serving off a platform but went away from serving over a rolled up towel as he started to just jump forward to clear it instead of extending upwards.

I started a private conversation including the two of you with videos of his serve. Since he's a junior, I'd rather not share the videos on a public forum. You can post your comments here publicly or in the conversation if you have time to look at the videos.

Thanks again!
 

ptuanminh

Hall of Fame
@Ash_Smith @tennis_balla, thank you for doing this.
My question has to do with maintaining focus during points. I am having problems when playing higher level players. It seems that I always have a chance in a point. I could play a great point, but then fail to string a couple points, a couple games together. My opponents don't seem to worry too much cause i will end up giving it to them. Any tips to stay focus throughout the whole set? Thanks.
 

Ash_Smith

Legend
Thanks for the responses! We are already doing most of the exercises you both suggested for BH and serve. Liked serving off a platform but went away from serving over a rolled up towel as he started to just jump forward to clear it instead of extending upwards.

I started a private conversation including the two of you with videos of his serve. Since he's a junior, I'd rather not share the videos on a public forum. You can post your comments here publicly or in the conversation if you have time to look at the videos.

Thanks again!

No worries, I'll take a look and get back to you...
 

Curious

G.O.A.T.
Thanks guys for this probably most valuable thread on the forum. I'm wondering if you wouldn't mind giving feedback on practice videos?
 

tennis_balla

Hall of Fame
@Ash_Smith & @tennis_balla
On my second serve(kick), I frame lot of balls on Ad court going wide(outside dbls alley).....without a video what do you think that I need to focus?

You could be pulling your head down during contact which causes the mishits, or making contact too low or badly placed toss. You'd be surprised how much some players serve technique changes for the worse just by them trying to hit a different serve to a different spot in the court. Could also be you drop your tossing arm down too soon which unbalances you, just like pulling your head down.

Those are just a few, but yea without a video is just guessing.
 

tennis_balla

Hall of Fame
@Ash_Smith @tennis_balla, thank you for doing this.
My question has to do with maintaining focus during points. I am having problems when playing higher level players. It seems that I always have a chance in a point. I could play a great point, but then fail to string a couple points, a couple games together. My opponents don't seem to worry too much cause i will end up giving it to them. Any tips to stay focus throughout the whole set? Thanks.

Where does your focus wonder when your losing points and where is your focus when you're winning points?
 

kiteboard

Banned
Hello Coaches
I'm a much better hitting partner than a match player and my excuse is that I always try to play with better players. As an example, if I play a practice match with a player and lose 4-6, 4-6, the same player would crush me 6-2, 6-1 in a tournament. A player I beat 6-4 6-4 during practice would beat me with the same score in a league match
When I play a close game I usually lose because I don't play the big points very well. I can't finish when I'm up 40-30 on my serve yet tougher to beat when I'm down 40-30 on their serve.
I think the main issue is my confidence with the serve as I tend to have 2 second serves when i'm tight. The closer the score, the lower my first serve percentage. My first flat serve percentage is generally higher on the deuce court than the ad (both practice and match), and my first serve percentage is about 25% lower during matches. Among other things I just can't seem to bring what I gain in practice to a real match, especially the serve.
Fitness and mental toughness are contributing factors as well. All of these issues are huge and I understand that they are long term goals, but are there any immediate/more specific short term solutions that you would suggest?
I don't have a coach and just a recreational player.`I take lesson occasionally to work primarily on my technique. My instructor is great with technique and fundamentals but not much help in the mental department.
When you care more, there is more tension. You jam yourself with this tension. To remove it and stay relaxed, you have to practice this: most in serving/returning/consistency in rallies.
 
You could be pulling your head down during contact which causes the mishits, or making contact too low or badly placed toss. You'd be surprised how much some players serve technique changes for the worse just by them trying to hit a different serve to a different spot in the court. Could also be you drop your tossing arm down too soon which unbalances you, just like pulling your head down.

Those are just a few, but yea without a video is just guessing.
Thank you, I will took into my toss arm and keep my head up.....IMHO, When my toss is on the baseline instead of slightly into the court than probably im losing sight of the ball ...but will try to experiment in my next practice and get back
 

Ash_Smith

Legend
In reality doesnt a good wide serve go wide of the dubs line and the servers partner close the net left slightly to cover tram more in first image? I'd also argue that the second image the move is too aggressive I generally try get inside foot on the centre line when my partner goes T (serve quality depending)?

It might go wider of course - in which case the volleyer would move to cover the possible angles of return, just as they have in this image - just shift the "return triangle" and position the volleyer accordingly.

Yes, the second move is aggressive - it's designed to be! Louis likes his volleyer to active and aggressive and actually closer to the net than most - just watch Jamie - he may not be the best "volleyer" per se, but he covers the net better than anyone in my opinion (thanks to Louis and this 'system'). It is worth noting this is also a simple diagram, designed to give the concept - exact feet position may vary!
 

Ash_Smith

Legend
@Ash_Smith @tennis_balla, thank you for doing this.
My question has to do with maintaining focus during points. I am having problems when playing higher level players. It seems that I always have a chance in a point. I could play a great point, but then fail to string a couple points, a couple games together. My opponents don't seem to worry too much cause i will end up giving it to them. Any tips to stay focus throughout the whole set? Thanks.

Where does your focus wonder when your losing points and where is your focus when you're winning points?

@ptuanminh - to help you answer @tennis_balla 's question take a piece of paper and split it into three columns, head the columns Thoughts/Feelings/Behaviours. In your next couple of matches, at the change of ends make a note under each heading of any thoughts that came into your head - and I mean any and all thoughts (we are looking for patterns, so record everything!) - as you do that in the second and third columns make notes about how you felt at the time that thought occurred and what changes in your behaviours you noticed (a behaviour could be anything technical, tactical, physical or mental).

This should help you understand where your focus shifts to and what impact it has - then you (we) can devise some interventions to keep you on track.

On a side note, humans can only concentrate with extreme focus for a maximum of around 40 minutes - so learning when to 'turn the volume down' and when to 'turn the volume up' is essential for a sport like tennis with no full time whistle.
 

Ash_Smith

Legend
Hello Coaches
I'm a much better hitting partner than a match player and my excuse is that I always try to play with better players. As an example, if I play a practice match with a player and lose 4-6, 4-6, the same player would crush me 6-2, 6-1 in a tournament. A player I beat 6-4 6-4 during practice would beat me with the same score in a league match
When I play a close game I usually lose because I don't play the big points very well. I can't finish when I'm up 40-30 on my serve yet tougher to beat when I'm down 40-30 on their serve.
I think the main issue is my confidence with the serve as I tend to have 2 second serves when i'm tight. The closer the score, the lower my first serve percentage. My first flat serve percentage is generally higher on the deuce court than the ad (both practice and match), and my first serve percentage is about 25% lower during matches. Among other things I just can't seem to bring what I gain in practice to a real match, especially the serve.
Fitness and mental toughness are contributing factors as well. All of these issues are huge and I understand that they are long term goals, but are there any immediate/more specific short term solutions that you would suggest?
I don't have a coach and just a recreational player.`I take lesson occasionally to work primarily on my technique. My instructor is great with technique and fundamentals but not much help in the mental department.

@maleyoyo - 2 things jump out immediately, 1) What you choose to focus on during play and 2) How closely does your practice reflect the demands of competition when it comes to serving.

1) As I have said in a couple of other responses here, elite mental toughness is being able to accept your current thoughts and emotions and still maintain focus on the demands of performance. Imagine your brain is like the little cheese wheel from Trivial Pursuit the board game, you have 6 slots to fill up. If you fill 5 of them focussing on "this point is more important", "if only I'd won that last break point", "if I lose this point i'm way behind", "if I don't win this match i'm letting the team down", "hope I don't double fault" then you only have one slot left to actually focus on something that will help!

Your job is to accept that those thoughts happen (every sportsperson has negative thoughts at times), but then shake them out of your cheese wheel and replace them with something that could actually help you perform.

2) If your serve % drops that much between practice and competition, then your practice isn't appropriate. You need to create situations in practice that challenge you to perform. Try to replicate the same or similar pressures - play practice points with only 1 serve, play points where you have to hit a certain serve 2 times in a row to earn the right to play the point, play a game of HORSE (like the basketball game) with a buddy - set up goals in the serve box to serve through and nominate and serve through one, your buddy tries to match you and then they nominate and serve first next time etc.

You can come up with lots of similar variations to make practice more reflective of the pressure you feel in matches.
 

Ash_Smith

Legend
@nothinButTennis - Okay, that would be a function of the racquet path - most pro's will be hitting around the outside of the ball on the forehand to a greater or lesser degree - much like a golfer would do to hit a draw.
 

ptuanminh

Hall of Fame
@Ash_Smith @tennis_balla
Thank you. Now that you ask, i realize that I have pretty negative thoughts both when i lose and win a point (only when i play these good guys). When i win a point, the thought would be something along the line " damn, thats what it takes to win a point against this guy". When i lose, that would be "i am gonna lose this game". I think during apoint, even before it starts i have given up mentally haha. Gotta fix this. Thanks a lot. Any tip would help.
 

Ash_Smith

Legend
@ptuanminh

Warning - exceedingly long response below (but it will help!) - it's an article I wrote about 18 months ago...

In our last article about fear (which you can read here) we touched on the thoughts-feelings-actions model.

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The thoughts-feelings-actions model tells us that our behaviours are shaped by the feelings we have which are in turn shaped by the thoughts in our heads – whether we have put them there or someone else has put them there for us.

Psychologist and author Carol Dweck, one of the leading researchers into the motivation behind success and mastery, undertook an experiment to test the power of thoughts. She took 400 students and gave them a simple puzzle. Afterwards, each of the students were given six words of praise.

Half were praised for their intelligence: "Wow, you must be really smart!" The other half were praised for effort: "You must have worked really hard!"

Dweck was seeking to test whether these simple words, with their subtly different emphases, could make a difference to the student's mindsets. The results were remarkable. After the first test, the students were given a choice of whether to take a hard or an easy test. 67% of the students praised for intelligence chose the easy task - they did not want to risk losing their "smart" label. But 92% of the effort-praised group chose the tough test - they wanted to prove just how hard working they were.

Then, the experiment came full circle, giving the students a chance to take a test of equal difficulty to the first test. The group praised for intelligence showed a 20% decline in performance compared with the first test, even though it was no harder. But the effort-praised group increased their score by 30%.

The results of this simple experiment show us the power of story telling, each group believing the story it was told, which led to very different thoughts and consequently very different behaviours.

NEGATIVE THINKING
It must be noted at this point that having negative thoughts is entirely normal, there isn't an athlete or performer in the world who hasn't had a negative thought at some point in their careers: “What if I miss this putt?”, “If I don't score this penalty I'll let the team down?”, “What if I forget my lines?” “If only I'd done...”

But negative thoughts need not have a negative impact on performance.

“Elite psychology is simply being able to accept your current thoughts/emotions and maintain focus on the task at hand.”

The first step towards acceptance is to help the performer become aware of their thoughts – where does their attention go at key times? Once a performer starts to become aware of where and when their focus shifts, it is possible to create some interventions to help them bring their focus back to “the now”.

The most simple of these is to have the athlete tell themselves a different story when they recognise a negative thought pop into their heads. So “What if I miss this penalty?” becomes reframed as “When I score this penalty”, “Did you see how well she is playing” could be reframed as “Nobody has put more effort into training than me”. Combining this technique with visualisation of success in the task is an incredibly powerful tool to aid a performer in shifting their thinking. This does require practice, as it may not come naturally for many people, they may need prompting by a coach or colleague to recognise their thought patterns and tell themselves a different story – the more this is practiced, the more natural it becomes.

It is also vital that the performer doesn't rush into the task. In our article Under Pressure (which you can read here) we looked into the effects of pressure on performance and the effects of adrenaline. Negative thoughts can quickly lead to feelings of anxiety and stress and so can trigger the adrenaline response, by taking time out and shifting focus we can help counter these effects.

Commander Mark Devine (US Navy Seal) uses a technique he calls “the fish tank” to help clear his mind of negative thoughts and refocus. Close your eyes and picture a fish tank with a little goldfish swimming around, except you cannot see the goldfish because the water is dark and cloudy. Now, take a slow, deep breath in, hold and then slowly exhale. With each breath you take the fish tank gradually becomes clearer, until after 5 or so breaths the water is crystal clear and you can see Seb swimming around (my first pet goldfish was called Seb, feel free to name yours whatever you like).

WRITE YOUR OWN HEADLINES
The same techniques can be used post event also. To take an example from my own sport of tennis. I frequently debrief athletes at tournaments after matches, helping them reflect and tease out the learning for future training. After a tough loss it is common for the athlete to lose objectivity and condemn themselves based on the result alone – essentially saying “I lost so I must be rubbish”.

Through the course of our conversations I will often try to steer the athlete to telling themselves a different story of events. Initially their version of the story might go “I should have won because I made chances and didn't take them because I got nervous, my first serve was off so I could only hit with more spin and he kept hitting the corners so I could only just scramble balls back in play”.

On the face of it and to the athlete that's a pretty negative version of events, so we work to tell an alternative version of reality. With some questioning and further reflection we might get to: “I'm pleased with the number of chances I created, but I need to work on controlling my nerves so that I make sure I can take them, I didn't miss a second serve so no double faults and I worked really hard to cover the court and get balls back in play so that I didn't give away free points with errors”.

We now have a more positive, development focussed version of reality. Nothing about what happened, the actual event, has changed, only the story the athlete is telling themselves.

In some cases I have had great success asking an athlete to write me a newspaper headline for the story of their match. If the headline is outcome focussed or particularly negative, I will simply respond with “Nope, nobody will want to read that story, write me a headline that will make me want to know more”. It doesn't take long before the athlete has written 3, 4 even 5 different headlines for several different versions of the story – all from the same event. It's amazing how a simple technique like this can totally shift an athlete's ability to tell themselves a different story.

SO WHAT?
Accept that negative thoughts are a perfectly normal occurrence in all walks of life, but they needn't affect your performance. Accept that your negative thought is just one version of reality and then tell yourself a different story – a story focussed on the effort you are making and the success you are about to make of the task at hand. Take a step back, clear your mind by focusing on your breathing (or your pet fish) and see yourself achieving your task. When writing your headlines, make sure it's you holding the pen.
 
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