Battistone's jump serve?
- Thread starter gh65721
- Start date
Headshotterer
Professional
Illegal!!!!!
I believe his serve is legal although others would love to dispute it. The one step he takes behind the baseline is not that much different than what people do with the pinpoint stance. If he takes more than 1 step then it would be illegal, but he doesn't.
There's nothing wrong with tossing the ball well into the court and leaping well into the court as long as you hit the ball before your foot touches the ground.
Afterall, why would he be able to use this serve in competition if it were illegal?
There's nothing wrong with tossing the ball well into the court and leaping well into the court as long as you hit the ball before your foot touches the ground.
Afterall, why would he be able to use this serve in competition if it were illegal?
tennisdad65
Hall of Fame
the guy serves like this in challenger events. completely legal.
It's legal, or else they wouldn't be participating in ITFs
halalula1234
Professional
doesnt look like its gonna give more power than a regular serve. But obviously it looks fancier and makes u say "WOW"
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Not too sure about the legality of this serve. Am surprised that he is allowed to get away with this since it appears to violate the wording of Tennis Laws 16 and 18. I bet if this serve was deemed to provide an unfair advantage or if it started showing up in ATP tournaments, it would be scrutinized more closely.
Law 16. THE SERVICE
Immediately before starting the service motion ,the server shall stand at rest with both feet behind ... the baseline and within the imaginary extensions of the centre mark and the sideline...
Law 18. FOOTFAULT
During the service motion, the server shall not:
a) Change position by walking or running, although slight movements of the feet are permitted;
.
Law 16. THE SERVICE
Immediately before starting the service motion ,the server shall stand at rest with both feet behind ... the baseline and within the imaginary extensions of the centre mark and the sideline...
Law 18. FOOTFAULT
During the service motion, the server shall not:
a) Change position by walking or running, although slight movements of the feet are permitted;
.
what? He plays in challenger events. Are you joking? Those people are more cutthroat than the ATP, as they earn even less but still put in a hell of a lot of work. This is not a violation of either of those rules.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Not joking. Are you reading the same words that I am? Is your understanding of the English language that much different than my own? How could you read Laws 16 and 18 and not conclude that his serve might very well be in violation of those Laws? In the video I looked at he takes a large step with his from foot, nearly a foot and half, changing his whole body position that much before he leaps. This is tantamount to taking a running start. This is not the same thing at all as sliding your back foot up to meet your front foot for a pinpoint stance.
I've seen the very same thing happen in the badminton world. Players try to get away with violating the intent of the Rules. I'm seeing that here.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
^ Body position is very relevant. According to Law 18-a:
... the server shall not change position by walking or running...
We do not see the same body position change for a pinpoint stance. For this we see a fairly minor body shift compared to the whole body position change that we see with the Battistone serve. Just to make sure that we are talking about the same thing, this is the video that I looked at:
youtube.com/watch?v=hrwcr7BxS5I
.
... the server shall not change position by walking or running...
We do not see the same body position change for a pinpoint stance. For this we see a fairly minor body shift compared to the whole body position change that we see with the Battistone serve. Just to make sure that we are talking about the same thing, this is the video that I looked at:
youtube.com/watch?v=hrwcr7BxS5I
.
SystemicAnomaly: I realize you disagree with the rules, but the ITF does not. Hell, they made me change a damn shirt that had adidas stripes slightly too long at a low level futures qualifier... these are challenger tournaments. Not only would the umpires interpret the rules, but complaints have SURELY come in from opponents moaning about the motion, and this issue has surely come under close scrutiny... Yet they still serve that way.
Also, you are interpreting "position by walking or running" as "body position". Do you see why this is wrong?
Also, you are interpreting "position by walking or running" as "body position". Do you see why this is wrong?
tennisdad65
Hall of Fame
hmm. Thanks to SystemAnomaly, I am starting to change my mind on this. SA brings up a good point on the change in body position before launch up. His body is initially near his back foot, but just before jumping up, his body is at his front foot about 1.5 feet ahead. This body shift is giving him an extra initial 'momentum' advantage.
But the guys using pinpoint also get a bit of momentum advantage compared to platform.. His jump serve seems to be an extreme pinpoint with 'wrong' foot moving forward.
But the guys using pinpoint also get a bit of momentum advantage compared to platform.. His jump serve seems to be an extreme pinpoint with 'wrong' foot moving forward.
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GeorgeLucas
Banned
One step with one foot does not constitute a walk. This kind of movement is under the "slight movements of the feet" umbrella.
pabletion
Hall of Fame
This is the Battistone vid? After reading the rules you posted, and watching this, in my opinion, its not illegal. I remembered it differently then, cause I read rules 16 and 18 and immediately thought it was illegal, but, you can see on the vid that he starts on a still position, he only moves his front foot, not the back one, so not really a step, then jumps.
I dont see a difference with other serves, for example, marcelo rios, and others, who drag their rear foot to the front, then jump, much less of course, to make contact.
Mike Cottrill
Hall of Fame
No Walk, No Run... Legal.. What video are you seeing run or walk?
grizzly4life
Professional
two other things.........
do you notice he tosses and hits with same hand? why does he do that?
and don't he and his brother play with racquet with two handles? i didn't look for it on the video......... what does that do for racquet balance??
do you notice he tosses and hits with same hand? why does he do that?
and don't he and his brother play with racquet with two handles? i didn't look for it on the video......... what does that do for racquet balance??
spiritdragon
Rookie
it is a completely legal shot. as long as he doesnt touch the baseline it is not a foot fault. you are allowed to jump into the court.
Yeah I don't see any problem with the laws after reading what people said. I think he throws it and hits it with the same hand because his dominant hand will be able to throw the ball further up and he'll be able to hit it hard. Good toss and good serve. I just noticed this as I'm writing this, and I'm thinking that's a good idea.
rubberduckies
Professional
I don't blame him for trying to make some buck off his tennis career. He won't make it to the big time, so he's trying to make name for himself in other ways and hoping his double-handled racquet will take off.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
GeorgeLucas, moving the front foot & the whole body forward 1.5 feet or so would seem to be much more than just a slight movement of the feet. It also appears to be more than one foot moving as the back foot pushes off the ground at the same time. This looks more like a step and a half before the upward leap. Is this walking? I would say yes, but this is really a gray area. The movement of the feet advances his body forward to the baseline before he jumps -- to my mind that is still walking. But then we might just be arguing semantics here.
As he steps toward the baseline with the front foot, his back foot also moves (pushing off the ground) giving him a very pronounced forward momentum before launching himself off the ground (as tennisdad65 points out).
The other examples that you mention do not have the whole body moving forward significantly as the back foot slides forward. There is considerably less forward momentum prior to the leg drive upward. The forward momentum that we do see for these other servers is not a result of "walking" up to the baseline line -- it is a result of the back leg pushing up/off slightly before the front leg.
No, I am not in disagreement with the rules at all, I am disagreeing with the loose interpretation (or lax implementation) of the rules. No, I do not see my interpretation as wrong. I see my interpretation as being stricter than the officials that have deemed it as ok. Are you saying that the ITF, as a collective body, has given the ok for this service action?
I am saying that the step & half that he takes after the toss constitutes walking toward the baseline. you may disagree with that since we don't have a clear definition of walking (is it more than 1 step? 3 or more steps?). For a volleyball jumps serve, we usually see the server taking several steps prior to jumping. This appears to be an abbreviated version of the volleyball jumps serve.
As he steps toward the baseline with the front foot, his back foot also moves (pushing off the ground) giving him a very pronounced forward momentum before launching himself off the ground (as tennisdad65 points out).
The other examples that you mention do not have the whole body moving forward significantly as the back foot slides forward. There is considerably less forward momentum prior to the leg drive upward. The forward momentum that we do see for these other servers is not a result of "walking" up to the baseline line -- it is a result of the back leg pushing up/off slightly before the front leg.
No, I am not in disagreement with the rules at all, I am disagreeing with the loose interpretation (or lax implementation) of the rules. No, I do not see my interpretation as wrong. I see my interpretation as being stricter than the officials that have deemed it as ok. Are you saying that the ITF, as a collective body, has given the ok for this service action?
I am saying that the step & half that he takes after the toss constitutes walking toward the baseline. you may disagree with that since we don't have a clear definition of walking (is it more than 1 step? 3 or more steps?). For a volleyball jumps serve, we usually see the server taking several steps prior to jumping. This appears to be an abbreviated version of the volleyball jumps serve.
halalula1234
Professional
i heard he hit 138 mph on that comment on that youtube video
Element54
Semi-Pro
It took him a full jump to achieve that though opposed to the traditional style.
tennisdad65
Hall of Fame
how about his second serve? can he get any spin or control on his second serve jumping that far into the court?
