pc1
G.O.A.T.
John,
Have they checked the RPMs of some past greats like Borg, Lendl, Connors and Wilander? I'd be curious about the RPMs on all of them.
Best flat backhand of all time
- Thread starter pc1
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Have they checked the RPMs of some past greats like Borg, Lendl, Connors and Wilander? I'd be curious about the RPMs on all of them.
NatF
Bionic Poster
I'm quite curious about this, I'd love to pick your brain on all manner of things. Do you have data on the spin and pace of say Federer's forehand now compared to say the mid 00's?
I think her backhand was actually flatter than Connors....watch the last point of the '85 French final and decide for yourself...
Flatter than Connors? I don't think so. Video of 1 point doesn't change that. I can find video of single points where Connors puts in a fairly big serve. That doesn't mean his serve is as big as Mcenroe's. Not claiming the same extreme with Evert's BH. It was pretty flat. I just don't think flatter than Connors.
That backhand pass is always hit exceptionally flat. but her rallying shot had a hint more top . Off her forehand side it was the same drill, but from 86 foreward she worked on a heavy topspin forehand. She really worked on putting more bite on that two handed slice as well.
I will agree with you there....she hit the backhand pass quite flat. Not so much in a rally. Whereas Connors was pretty much a flat BH under all circumstances. She did come over the forehand more in the latter stages of her career.
In my mind, stroke for stroke, it's pretty clear that Evert played with more margin for error than Connors. Younger Evert could pretty much stay out there all day if needed. 50 stroke rallies. Connors was consistent, not THAT consistent. When he played someone like Borg, the longer the rally went I thought the more it favored Borg.
IowaGuy
Hall of Fame
But given the same height of contact, if their shots are slower, on average, that allows more time for gravity to do its work and bring the ball back into the court.
i.e. a woman hitting slower than a guy could hit a flat shot higher over the net than him, but it could still land in, while his might sail long...
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suwanee4712
Professional
I agree. The great flat hitters were all driven from the game in the late 80's with the change in technology. Who doesn't like to hit against someone that gives you a clean, pretty flat ball? You can impart any kind of spin on a flat ball without much effort. It takes a lot more energy and strength to re-rotate a topspun ball with your own topspin.
pc1
G.O.A.T.
It's quite beautiful to see a Jimmy Connors hitting the ball perfectly and almost never mishitting with his flat drives. I couldn't believe how easily he could handle the heavy topspin drives of players like Vilas and Borg. Handling the low slice of Rosewall (although Rosewall hit mostly flat) wasn't easy also yet he handled it so well.
I agree with you suwanee4712 that it's harder to handle the heavy topspin of today than the old flat drives.
Okay we now have had 62 posts and very few women nominees for best flat backhand. I have been patient secondary to perceived and totally owned bias by this poster. Evert's double hander was consistently flatter than most any body's in the top tier throughout a 19 year career, and it was universally seen as one of the best backhands on any surface in the history of women's tennis. What am I waiting for? I nominate Evert. It's record for versatility, power and accuracy is on par with anyone else mentioned of either gender.
Limpinhitter
G.O.A.T.
No. They both hit heavy topspin backhands, dtl and cc.
Limpinhitter
G.O.A.T.
Evert hit a rolling topspin with her 2hb. Her fh was perhaps a little flatter. I'm not sure what you mean by limited margin. Net clearance? She hit with both good height and depth, with power and touch. Her footwork and shot preparation were immaculate.
Benben245
Banned
Can they yes, but I think your
No, you're wrong because you didn't read. WHEN they hit flat, as all players do from time to time, it is a step above their peers
Limpinhitter
G.O.A.T.
I read. I'm explaining to you that they never hit flat backhands.
Benben245
Banned
Your position can easily be disproven via youtube. Im watching the Djoker match right now just saw two 'flattys' in sequence.
Limpinhitter
G.O.A.T.
There is no such thing as a flat ground stroke in modern high level tennis, moreso in world class tennis. Djokovic hits heavy topspin on both sides except for the occasional underspin backhand. Accord Agassi.
Benben245
Banned
Respectfully, everyone on the ATP tour hits flat from time to time. Ala Del Potro
Limpinhitter
G.O.A.T.
No they don't. The same has been erroneously said about Soderling. Del Potro and Soderling hit heavy topspin.
Benben245
Banned
I believe you've spoiled my drink. Good day
Limpinhitter
G.O.A.T.
Whatever is in your drink, it may be impairing your ability to see spin.
Benben245
Banned
If you think that is a 'topspin' shot I know a good neuro-Opthamologist that happens to have a penchant for 19 year old Russian run-aways
I don't think that's quite true. Ask all the Euro top spinners in the '70's and 80's who lost to Connors. It sounds easier to play against a flat ball striker, but in practice, not so much. Ball comes thru faster, lower, etc. You have less time to set up and strike the ball. '91 match at FO between Chang and Connors brings that to bear if you watch it closely. Chang's effective topspin shots came back hard, fast and low, throwing off his rhythm at many points during the match. And, this was "old man" Connors, far from his prime days.
I'd still vote for Evert, even if she did hit with a bit more top than Jimmy did. When she hit thru that backhand, it was a beautiful thing to watch.
Limpinhitter
G.O.A.T.
If you don't see topspin on that shot, then it must be something in that drink.
Benben245
Banned
I will have the doctor send Anastasia over to your abode, she is a panacea for even the worst case of 'limp hitter'. What's your address?
Limpinhitter
G.O.A.T.
Do you see the upward swingpath of the racquet head before, during and after contact with the ball?
Benben245
Banned
If anything the ball has side spin/and or inadvertent topspin due to its deflection point. The racquet's path is a horizontal parabola finishing upward only AFTER he has made contact. I can explain this more in depth if you like but I dont wish to come across condescendingly.
Limpinhitter
G.O.A.T.
You don't need to explain it. The swingpath relative to the racquet face angle determines the spin of the ball. The swingpath is upward relative to the racquet face angle and, therefore, topspin was imparted. A flat ball requires the swing path and racquet face angle to be identical.
In any event, this is far afield from your assertion that Djokovic and Agassi regularly hit flat 2hb's dtl. They did not.
Benben245
Banned
My assertion NEVER was that Djokovic and Agassi REGULARLY hit flat 2HBs. I invite you to provide prima facie evidence that would confirm my implying a 'high' or 'regularly' predilection towards flat 2hbs. Perhaps your confusion in the video comes from the fact that he is going cross court.
Benben245
Banned
My assertion NEVER was that Djokovic and Agassi REGULARLY hit flat 2HBs but rather WHEN they do they are among the best. You contend they NEVER have and that no one hits a flat forehand or backhand ever on the ATP Tour including Tomic for example. I invite you to provide prima facie evidence that would confirm my implying a 'high' or 'regularly' predilection towards flat 2hbs by Djokovic and or Agassi. Perhaps your confusion in the del Potro video comes from the fact that he is going cross court.
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Limpinhitter
G.O.A.T.
Your prime facie evidence, that top players regularly hit flat ground strokes, Mr. Benben:
Have you ever seen Djokovic play? Nadal? Agassi? Zverev? Del Potro? I'm not confused Mr. Benben, you are.
PS: You may have missed this because John Yandell is in the practice of responding to posts without quoting them, so you are not notified of the response.
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Benben245
Banned
Your argument is fallacious; 'flat' is common nomenclature in tennis as a shot with little spin in RELATIVE terms. Your pedantic attempt to argue 'flat' is literal and therefore inapplicable on the ATP tour is absolutely semantical sophistry. John Yandell I am certain would agree that when 'flat' shots are hit the rpm differential from the mean is incredibly significant, atleast two standard deviations away. (it is 'prima' facie not 'prime' just for your own edification) and to my point again, I quote myself in redundancy " I would argue Agassi and Nadal had very similar flat backhands WHEN THEY PLAYED THEM although Agassi's stroke was more abridged." which does not imply in the least that flat shots were standard, in fact it explicitly suggests the opposite highlighting the comparison when applicable.
I dont mean to talk down to you but you really must expand your parochial thinking; it is quite stubborn. Here is yet another example for your leisure:
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Limpinhitter
G.O.A.T.
This reads like a confession of error, Mr. Benben.
Benben245
Banned
It is literally impossible to hit a shot without some form of spin due to the velocity deflection point and friction among other variables. I do no believe anyone can take you seriously that 'flat' implies no spin or rotation of the ball whatsoever, its nonsense my boy. I hope should our paths cross beyond this forum in the future you will accept a hug from yours truly and not take offense to my hard bulge against your thigh for priapism is common in my family. Good day
Limpinhitter
G.O.A.T.
John, if you would extend the courtesy of quoting posts that you respond to, the person whose post you respond to will be notified of your response and be afforded the opportunity to offer a timely reply of his/her own.
Limpinhitter
G.O.A.T.
Oh dear!
donnayblack99
Semi-Pro
Edberg.
suwanee4712
Professional
I'm an advocate of flat ball striking. All of my favorites were flat ball strikers. It's just my opinion that it would be very difficult for a someone with flat strokes to be successful today. They have been virtually extinct from the tour since the mid 90's.
I would love to see tennis get back to that. But the racquets and strings make it impossible. Because all you have to do is just catch the ball anywhere on the racquet now and you've got instant angles and spin to overcome a nice, flat stroke. Plus a flat striker has to hit through all that spin, whereas in the old days players like Connors and Evert were just eating up the pace that their opponents were giving them without the heavy spin produced today.
And people will say that there are flat ball strikers today on the pro tour, but there aren't. Today's so called flat ball strikers are merely relative to today's game. Nothing at all like Connors, Evert, Mandlikova, etc. Just as the topspinners of the 70's and 80's really don't compare with the topspinners of today.
Limpinhitter
G.O.A.T.
Edberg hit topspin and slice of varying amounts. He didn't really hit a flat bh.
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