Best Seasons Ever Comparison

ABCD

Hall of Fame
TLDR: Federer's 2006 edges out Djokovic's 2015 by a net cord, although given their criteria it is subjective and could go either way.

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/11/rog...06-2015-john-mcenroe-rafael-nadal-grand-slams

Belief in people and accomplishments is a powerful perspective, and it will always depend most on which side people want to take, but it's hard not to name King Novak's 2015 season as the greatest ever. (By Jeremy Eckstein, Featured Columnist Nov 24, 2015)

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...15-season-the-greatest-in-mens-tennis-history
 

Adv. Edberg

Legend
Djoko had less competition than Fed in 2006. Even the majority of the people on this forum said that Djoko had less competition now than in 2011. That he was actually the better player in 2011.
 

user

Professional
Djoko had less competition than Fed in 2006. Even the majority of the people on this forum said that Djoko had less competition now than in 2011. That he was actually the better player in 2011.

Many people believe Federer was a better player in 2005, it's just that competition was better than 2006. And I'm not trolling.
 

Doctor/Lawyer Red Devil

Talk Tennis Guru
Dear God, this is still discussed?
After US Open it was said Djokovic needs to win at least one of remaining 3 big tournaments to have a better season. When he won Shanghai, he needed to win at least one of remaining two. When he won Bercy, he needed to win WTF because Masters are overhyped. Now that he won WTF too, what is the flaw? Not winning Doha or missing Madrid? :rolleyes:
 

CYGS

Legend
Djoko had less competition than Fed in 2006. Even the majority of the people on this forum said that Djoko had less competition now than in 2011. That he was actually the better player in 2011.
You mean "Fed fans". That's not biased at all.
 

CYGS

Legend
Dear God, this is still discussed?
After US Open it was said Djokovic needs to win at least one of remaining 3 big tournaments to have a better season. When he won Shanghai, he needed to win at least one of remaining two. When he won Bercy, he needed to win WTF because Masters are overhyped. Now that he won WTF too, what is the flaw? Not winning Doha or missing Madrid? :rolleyes:
Exactly. Even if Djokovic wins the CYGS next year, they will still insist Fed 2006 is better because of its greater "competition". Trolls gonna be trolls.
 

Doctor/Lawyer Red Devil

Talk Tennis Guru
Exactly. Even if Djokovic wins the CYGS next year, they will still insist Fed 2006 is better because of its greater "competition". Trolls gonna be trolls.
The thing is the "weak competition" stories all started recently. If those who are saying that really believe in it, they would have started talking about it after early HC season ended, or during clay season... even after Wimbledon. But no, it only started after US Open finished and when Novak confirmed his dominance and there was fear that he will win all until the end of the season. Turns out the fear was justified.
 

ABCD

Hall of Fame
Objective criteria is to compare ATP points as this is official tennis way to measure tennis ranking. Lets someone who is good at it post how many points was acquired by Roger and how many points by Novak. Who got more had a better season. I think that every reasonable person would agree with this.
p.s. Wins/loses ratio is not official criteria to determine ranking, ATP points are.
 

CYGS

Legend
Blah blah blah...but 92-5 greater than 82-6

It's not up to you to decide either.
Quality > Quantity. Why else Fed is regarded (by you guys) as the GOAT despite not having the highest number of titles? Djokovic's total point is higher, H2H against each main rival is positive and record against top 10 players is the greatest ever = better season than Fed 2006.
 

CYGS

Legend
The thing is the "weak competition" stories all started recently. If those who are saying that really believe in it, they would have started talking about it after early HC season ended, or during clay season... even after Wimbledon. But no, it only started after US Open finished and when Novak confirmed his dominance and there was fear that he will win all until the end of the season. Turns out the fear was justified.
That's why they are trolls to me.
 

ABCD

Hall of Fame
I suggest that TMF (Talk Tennis Guru) calculate ATP points, which is an official way to rank players, for Novak and Federer and declare who the winner is.
 

Doctor/Lawyer Red Devil

Talk Tennis Guru
Objective criteria is to compare ATP points as this is official tennis way to measure tennis ranking. Lets someone who is good at it post how many points was acquired by Roger and how many points by Novak. Who got more had a better season. I think that every reasonable person would agree with this.
p.s. Wins/loses ratio is not official criteria to determine ranking, ATP points are.
What do you think why the ones blindly supporting Fed 2006 have been avoiding the ATP points comparison? Because Djokovic wins that one by a visible margin.
Federer ended 2006 with 8370 points, which is equivalent to 15495 points by 2015 ranking system. Djokovic has won 16585 points this year, the difference is bigger than 1000 points.
Peace! :cool:
 
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TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
Quality > Quantity. Why else Fed is regarded (by you guys) as the GOAT despite not having the highest number of titles? Djokovic's total point is higher, H2H against each main rival is positive and record against top 10 players is the greatest ever = better season than Fed 2006.
Quantity is fact, but quality is subjective and there's nothing one can prove which one was higher or better. You don't decide which year the players played higher quality tennis, but you're entitled to your opinion which I disagree. It's like you trying to convince the general public that yellow is a better color than blue.:rolleyes:
 

dh003i

Legend
What do you think why the ones blindly supporting Fed 2006 have been avoiding the ATP points comparison? Because Djokovic wins that one by a visible margin.
Federer ended 2006 with 8370 points, which is equivalent to 15495 points by 2015 ranking system. Djokovic has won 16585 points this year, the difference is bigger than 1000 points.
Peace!

Yes, going by points that is correct. However, the point system didn't change to devalue Masters comparatively when the finals went from best of 5 to best of 3, so points don't capture everything of significance.

If Djokovic achieved any 4 Majors in a row, I'd declare that the greatest 52-week period in ATP Open Era history, full stop (along with Laver's, if we are including him). Had he won the FO this year, it would have been the greatest season in the Open Era. If he had the same winning % or betteras Federer in 2006, then in my mind you could argue that 2015 Djoko > 2006 Fed.

In the 80s, the AO wasn't considered important unless you won all of the other Majors first; otherwise, it was insignificant. That is why McEnroe's 1984 season still needs to be considered (I disagree with the article on dismissing it). Also, I remember reading that in the 70s and 80s, prize money won was considered perhaps the most prestigious factor. This actually has some appeal to it. So what happens if we compare players through history by looking at how much prize money they won, adjusting for average year-over-year inflation in aggregate prize-money awarded to all players in total?
 

Tennisanity

Legend
McEnroe won only 2 slams in 1984, yet his season is considered one of the best all time, why? Because winning % counts! Poise counts!
 

dh003i

Legend
Masters award 1000 points for winning in the finals and 600 for runner-up. SF is 360 points.

To get the 600 points for runner-up, you have to win the best-of-3 SF match in 2015 and also back in 2006.

To get the 1000 points for winning, you have to win the best-of-3 Final match in 2015 or win the best-of-5 Final match in 2006. That's 400 additional points. I would suggest that if we wanted to account for best-of-3 finals, those 400 points should be multiplied by 0.6 (3/5): 400 x 3 / 5 = 240 points. So adjusting for best-of-3 finals being inferior to best-of-5 finals, a Masters final win awards an additional 240 points, not 400.

600+240 = 840 adjusted points for winning a best-of-5 Masters final in 2015.
 

Doctor/Lawyer Red Devil

Talk Tennis Guru
Quantity is fact, but quality is subjective and there's nothing one can prove which one was higher or better. You don't decide which year the players played higher quality tennis, but you're entitled to your opinion which I disagree. It's like you trying to convince the general public that yellow is a better color than blue.:rolleyes:
I think he was referring to the quality and quantity of tournaments won.
Federer won one more tournament in 2006 than Djokovic did this year (correct me on this if I am wrong), while Djokovic won two more big tournaments (GS, WTF, Masters).
The quality of tennis is subjective, but the quality of tournaments is not.
Yes, going by points that is correct. However, the point system didn't change to devalue Masters comparatively when the finals went from best of 5 to best of 3, so points don't capture everything of significance.

If Djokovic achieved any 4 Majors in a row, I'd declare that the greatest 52-week period in ATP Open Era history, full stop (along with Laver's, if we are including him). Had he won the FO this year, it would have been the greatest season in the Open Era. If he had the same winning % or betteras Federer in 2006, then in my mind you could argue that 2015 Djoko > 2006 Fed.

In the 80s, the AO wasn't considered important unless you won all of the other Majors first; otherwise, it was insignificant. That is why McEnroe's 1984 season still needs to be considered (I disagree with the article on dismissing it). Also, I remember reading that in the 70s and 80s, prize money won was considered perhaps the most prestigious factor. This actually has some appeal to it. So what happens if we compare players through history by looking at how much prize money they won, adjusting for average year-over-year inflation in aggregate prize-money awarded to all players in total?
Well Djokovic did not influence ATP to switch the Masters finals from BO5 to BO3. That happened a long time ago. And these days, it is a lot harder to beat Djokovic in BO5 than in BO3 anyway. If it still was the same format, others would have had even tougher task beating him.
Laver 1969 is the best ever season no doubt. The main discussion now is which one is the 2nd best, Djoko 2015 or Fed 2006. I am going with the former.
 

CYGS

Legend
McEnroe won only 2 slams in 1984, yet his season is considered one of the best all time, why? Because winning % counts! Poise counts!
No one argues about that. Does the fact that he had higher winning % prove his season better than Fed 2006? Please answer this explicitly, so that we can examine the consistency in your logic.
 

CYGS

Legend
Quantity is fact, but quality is subjective and there's nothing one can prove which one was higher or better. You don't decide which year the players played higher quality tennis, but you're entitled to your opinion which I disagree. It's like you trying to convince the general public that yellow is a better color than blue.:rolleyes:
Masters 1000 > ATP 500/250. This "quality" has already been quantified. Thank you.
 

dh003i

Legend
Using the formula above, which deducts 160 points for each finals Masters win in 2015 vs. 2006, that's a possible swing of 160 x 7 = 1120 points.

I'm not sure how many of Djokovic's 7 Masters' final victories would have been best-of-5 in 2006, or how many of Federer's 5 Masters final victories in 2006 were best-of-5, but we are talking about a possible swing of 1120 points. I'm sure that not all of Fed's 5 Masters victories were in the best-of-5 format, nor that all of Djokovic's 2015 victories would have been in that format in 2006, but it is something to consider.

Also, it is worth considering that the points in 2006 were not appropriately apportioned and that Masters with best-of-3 finals should have awarded fewer points than best-of-5 finals.
 

CYGS

Legend
Masters award 1000 points for winning in the finals and 600 for runner-up. SF is 360 points.

To get the 600 points for runner-up, you have to win the best-of-3 SF match in 2015 and also back in 2006.

To get the 1000 points for winning, you have to win the best-of-3 Final match in 2015 or win the best-of-5 Final match in 2006. That's 400 additional points. I would suggest that if we wanted to account for best-of-3 finals, those 400 points should be multiplied by 0.6 (3/5): 400 x 3 / 5 = 240 points. So adjusting for best-of-3 finals being inferior to best-of-5 finals, a Masters final win awards an additional 240 points, not 400.

600+240 = 840 adjusted points for winning a best-of-5 Masters final in 2015.
No. Could you please discount Fed's slam points because he played one less match in 2006 than Djokovic did this year? And since slams trump everything else, Djokovic 2015 still wins. Thanks.
 

dh003i

Legend
No one argues about that. Does the fact that he had higher winning % prove his season better than Fed 2006? Please answer this explicitly, so that we can examine the consistency in your logic.

Some people say it does. The argument is certainly there for McEnroe's 1984 over Federer's 2006.

I don't think there is any one metric that would make Federer's 2006 the best season ever. There are seasons with slightly higher win %, a few more total wins, more Masters wins. However, Federer's 2006 is very close to the top in all categories, which is it's strength.
 

CYGS

Legend
Some people say it does. The argument is certainly there for McEnroe's 1984 over Federer's 2006.

I don't think there is any one metric that would make Federer's 2006 the best season ever. There are seasons with slightly higher win %, a few more total wins, more Masters wins. However, Federer's 2006 is very close to the top in all categories, which is it's strength.
I'm not asking about somebody else's answer. Don't dodge the obvious.
 

dh003i

Legend
No. Could you please discount Fed's slam points because he played one less match in 2006 than Djokovic did this year? And since slams trump everything else, Djokovic 2015 still wins. Thanks.

If you want to argue that, go ahead...but it isn't a systematic way to argue about how points should be evaluated in tournaments. Well, I suppose you could...so you argue for a point system where players don't earn points for walkovers, or earn less. There are some possibly nasty incentives there, of course.

I'm arguing that best of 5 is more valuable than best of 3 and that best of 3 finals shouldn't award the same number of points as best of 5 finals.
 

dh003i

Legend
I'm not asking about somebody else's answer. Don't dodge the obvious.

The answer is it is one of the things that people consider and debate. There is no such thing as objective proof as to what the best or greatest season ever was, because the determination of criteria is subjective.
 

CYGS

Legend
If you want to argue that, go ahead...but it isn't a systematic way to argue about how points should be evaluated in tournaments. Well, I suppose you could...so you argue for a point system where players don't earn points for walkovers, or earn less. There are some possibly nasty incentives there, of course.

I'm arguing that best of 5 is more valuable than best of 3 and that best of 3 finals shouldn't award the same number of points as best of 5 finals.
And playing one less match shouldn't be considered equal too. That's why "discounting" points according to factors players can't control is nonsensical. If a systematic way is what you're looking for, then you have to follow the ATP system, in which Djokovic 2015 > Fed 2006.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
No. Could you please discount Fed's slam points because he played one less match in 2006 than Djokovic did this year? And since slams trump everything else, Djokovic 2015 still wins. Thanks.
What do you mean Fed played one less match in the slams in 2006?
 

CYGS

Legend
The answer is it is one of the things that people consider and debate. There is no such thing as objective proof as to what the best or greatest season ever was, because the determination of criteria is subjective.
Still afraid of saying YOUR answer to that question. 6 masters > 4 masters is a fact, not subjective.
 

ABCD

Hall of Fame
What do you think why the ones blindly supporting Fed 2006 have been avoiding the ATP points comparison? Because Djokovic wins that one by a visible margin.
Federer ended 2006 with 8370 points, which is equivalent to 15495 points by 2015 ranking system. Djokovic has won 16585 points this year, the difference is bigger than 1000 points.
Peace! :cool:
If that is true, case closed.
 

Djokovic2011

Bionic Poster
Blah blah blah...but 92-5 greater than 82-6

It's not up to you to decide either.
It'd be better to bring that stat up if the debate was about who had the more dominant season. However in terms of which season was better overall, I don't see how you can argue that Djokovic's 2015 > Federer's 2006.

Besides, if we went down the "quality over quantity" avenue then Novak's season comes out on top again seeing as 70 of his 82 match wins were at Masters 1000 and above compared to Federer who won 66 of his 92 matches at the same level.
 

CYGS

Legend
I am asking you the same question mate. Federer had no walkovers at Slams in 2006. Did you mix it up with some other year?
Federer - 2006

81-13 W/L for sets in Grand Slams, once pushed to 5 sets
11-2 W/L for sets at Year End

Djokovic - 2015
82-13
W/L for sets in Grand Slams, three times pushed to 5 sets
8-2 W/L for sets at Year End

Federer - 2007
79-9 W/L For sets in Grand Slam, once pushed to 5 sets
10-2 W/L for sets at Year End

According to TTW Data Guru, Fed played 1 less match than Djokovic did this year.

Edit: Now I know it's one less set. Oh well.
 

dh003i

Legend
And playing one less match shouldn't be considered equal too. That's why "discounting" points according to factors players can't control is nonsensical. If a systematic way is what you're looking for, then you have to follow the ATP system, in which Djokovic 2015 > Fed 2006.

My point is, the ATP point ranking system is something someone decided on. Criteria were set. It wasn't handed down from the heavens as the objectively correct and best way to rank players.

Ignoring a non-systematic difference like an occassional walkover in setting points is quite a bit different from a systematic difference, like the difference between best of 3 and best of 5.

What if Majors went to a best of 3 format for all matches played in 2016 and beyond? I would certainly say that irrelevant of if they change the point system, that would devalue Majors in 2016 and beyond vs 2015 and before.

On a similar note, for similar and more extreme reasons, no one considers William Renshaw's 7 Wimbledon victories to be something worth talking about when discussing the greatest Wimbledon grasscourt champions, because for most of them he only had to play 1 match. (and a host of other reasons)
 

CYGS

Legend
My point is, the ATP point ranking system is something someone decided on. Criteria were set. It wasn't handed down from the heavens as the objectively correct and best way to rank players.

Ignoring a non-systematic difference like an occassional walkover in setting points is quite a bit different from a systematic difference, like the difference between best of 3 and best of 5.

What if Majors went to a best of 3 format for all matches played in 2016 and beyond? I would certainly say that irrelevant of if they change the point system, that would devalue Majors in 2016 and beyond vs 2015 and before.

On a similar note, for similar and more extreme reasons, no one considers William Renshaw's 7 Wimbledon victories to be something worth talking about when discussing the greatest Wimbledon grasscourt champions, because for most of them he only had to play 1 match. (and a host of other reasons)
No "what if". Discounting things due to factors players can't control is not fair, however you want to look at it.
 

dh003i

Legend
also, to further elaborate why point-ranking isn't the only thing, what if the ATP did something incredibly stupid like say making the World Tour Finals worth the same number of points, but awarding the winner of the event $100 million in prize money, far more than any other tournament offers. We could imagine the obvious impact this would have on how valuable that tournament is to players, and I'd say it would almost instantly become the most prestigious event, because all of the players would try their best to make it to the WTF and win above all else.
 

CYGS

Legend
also, to further elaborate why point-ranking isn't the only thing, what if the ATP did something incredibly stupid like say making the World Tour Finals worth the same number of points, but awarding the winner of the event $100 million in prize money, far more than any other tournament offers. We could imagine the obvious impact this would have on how valuable that tournament is to players, and I'd say it would almost instantly become the most prestigious event, because all of the players would try their best to make it to the WTF and win above all else.
Again, no "what if"s. Your hypothetical situations aren't relevant.
 
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