BH slice vs. topspin – energy exertion

[IowaGuy]

Recently purchased a ball machine and have been doing drills to hone my OHBH topspin and slice. Very quickly I noticed that my OHBH topspin is much more tiring (~100 balls in a row) than the slice.

Has there ever been any sort of analysis of the effort exerted on a topspin vs. slice BH? The closest thing I can find on the internet is a biomechanical analysis of FH topspin vs. flat, where the topspin has ~ 25% more energy expenditure than a flat shot (which I'm sure depends on the particular swing style)

https://web.sas.upenn.edu/biol438/files/2016/09/BIOL-438-Powerpoint-1xahwvp.pptx

I have read that frequent slicers such as Fed, Graf, etc might use the BH slice (consciously or subconsciously) to save energy over the course of a long match. I never thought much of it until recently hitting 100 BH topspins in a row compared to 100 BH slices in a row

Thoughts?

 

[mad dog1]

Topspin swing path is low to high.

Slice swing path is high to low.

Gravity pulls from high to low.

 

[Limpinhitter]

Recently purchased a ball machine and have been doing drills to hone my OHBH topspin and slice. Very quickly I noticed that my OHBH topspin is much more tiring (~100 balls in a row) than the slice.

Has there ever been any sort of analysis of the effort exerted on a topspin vs. slice BH? The closest thing I can find on the internet is a biomechanical analysis of FH topspin vs. flat, where the topspin has ~ 25% more energy expenditure than a flat shot (which I'm sure depends on the particular swing style)

https://web.sas.upenn.edu/biol438/files/2016/09/BIOL-438-Powerpoint-1xahwvp.pptx

I have read that frequent slicers such as Fed, Graf, etc might use the BH slice (consciously or subconsciously) to save energy over the course of a long match. I never thought much of it until recently hitting 100 BH topspins in a row compared to 100 BH slices in a row

Thoughts?

To me, the method of generating racquet head speed should be the same for topspin and underspin backhands - rotation of the upper body and rotation of the arm. The main difference is the swing path - hitting up to contact, or hitting down to contact. So, I don't see a good reason for one to be significantly more tiring than the other.

 

[SinjinCooper]

The effort exerted by the plant leg on a topspin backhand drive is night and day more effort-intensive than a slice.

The slice BH is the old man's best friend.

 

[atp2015]

Recently purchased a ball machine and have been doing drills to hone my OHBH topspin and slice. Very quickly I noticed that my OHBH topspin is much more tiring (~100 balls in a row) than the slice.

Has there ever been any sort of analysis of the effort exerted on a topspin vs. slice BH? The closest thing I can find on the internet is a biomechanical analysis of FH topspin vs. flat, where the topspin has ~ 25% more energy expenditure than a flat shot (which I'm sure depends on the particular swing style)

https://web.sas.upenn.edu/biol438/files/2016/09/BIOL-438-Powerpoint-1xahwvp.pptx

I have read that frequent slicers such as Fed, Graf, etc might use the BH slice (consciously or subconsciously) to save energy over the course of a long match. I never thought much of it until recently hitting 100 BH topspins in a row compared to 100 BH slices in a row

Thoughts?

In my estimation, slice requires only 60 pct effort of top spin. The work is less for slice - just an elaborate racket drop after a bit of additional head elevation , top spin otoh, is racket drop AND low to high swing.

 

[Pete Player]

If the slice is chopping-style, it really doesn’t need much of shoulder turn.

It’s the use of trunk, that requires stamina. And the shot is even more wearing, if you try to hit topspin hand only.


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On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer

 

[Limpinhitter]

The effort exerted by the plant leg on a topspin backhand drive is night and day more effort-intensive than a slice.

The slice BH is the old man's best friend.

How so?

 

[Topspin Shot]

Slices also give you easy depth because the ball travels farther. Plus you can use the incoming spin rather than having to reverse it.

 

[Pete Player]

Which way does a slice - under/back spin bounce from vertical surface? And an up/top spin?


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On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer

 

[philosoup]

About the same amount of energy consumption difference between fh topspin and fh slice.

 

[FiReFTW]

About the same amount of energy consumption difference between fh topspin and fh slice.

No and its not even close, topspin is far more energy demanding than slice as mentioned by most of the posts previously.

 

[Pete Player]

If you are able to hit on the rise, you’ll save a ton and get a bonus taking the time off your opponent.


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On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer

 

[Pete Player]

About the same amount of energy consumption difference between fh topspin and fh slice.

No and its not even close, topspin is far more energy demanding than slice as mentioned by most of the posts previously.

I have trouble with fh slice. Too much arm and it feels alot more consuming than topspin.

Backhand, however, feels about the same vice versa. Forehand slice is really unnatural in tennis, yet in squash it feels really natural. Even manage to attack on back wall bounce in squash.


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On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer

 

[philosoup]

I have trouble with fh slice. Too much arm and it feels alot more consuming than topspin.

Do a little arm/elbow flip as prep to coil up forearm before slice. Bh slice can harness power from body weight, fh slice can't as much. That is probably the main difference.

 

[Pete Player]

Do a little arm/elbow flip as prep to coil up forearm before slice. Bh slice can harness power from body weight, fh slice can't as much. That is probably the main difference.

Thanx, Gotta digest, what you suggest and try it out next time I get a chance go out on court.

While abcent from tennis and learning swinging a golf club got my topspins quite enhanced, when returned the sport after 25 years. Bh slice had been restored nicely, but fh slice - not so much, yet some similarities with chip shots.


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On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer

 

[Attila_the_gorilla]

There is no comparison between the swing speeds of a quality slice and a quality topspin groundstroke. Especially the pros with their powerful rackets, when they hit a slice, their swing usually looks like slow motion. Occasionally you get players who hit a slice with a sudden chopping motion, to maximize the underspin. But the actual forward speed of the racket head needs to be slow on the slice, otherwise the ball will float long.

As mentioned above, the natural use of gravity on the swing also makes the slice more effortless.

 

[Pete Player]

I have come to conclusion, that I have a powerfull racket... The same as Fognini - I think. PD Tour the latest in my bag and Roddick GTs before that.


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On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer

 

[Curious]

Very simple. On topspin backhand you're working against gravity, thus more energy required, plus abductor muscles of shoulder are not quite strong unless you work on them. End of thread!

 

[TennisCJC]

slice is much easier as you don't need as much racket head speed. Watch the USOpen final between Wawrinka and Djokovic. Notice how many times Stan went to a defensive slice and the effort he put into to those shots. Then watch Stan hit his topspin backhand in that same match. There's much more effort in the topspin backhand. Frequently on the slice, Stan looks like he is just trying to floating the ball deep and the effort looks pretty minimal for a groundstroke.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

Slice takes negative effort.
You need to remember to slow down the racket, or else the ball sails long.
It's a touch shot, not a power shot.

 

[toth]

I have thbh, and my experience that the bh slice is clear less tiring than the thbh.
My problem with it, that guys with big fh can attak my slice.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

@IowaGuy @mad dog1

Very simple. On topspin backhand you're working against gravity, thus more energy required, plus abductor muscles of shoulder are not quite strong unless you work on them. End of thread!

Agreed, hitting topspin appears to take more effort than underspin -- all else being equal.

Gravity and anatomy (physiology) could very well both be factors. However, there is an important factor that I do not believe has yet been mentioned in this thread. I assume that the OP is hitting balls from the machine after they have bounced on his side. The ball will always have topspin after the bounce (regardless of the pre-bounce spin type). Quite often the RPMs will be considerably greater post-bounce than pre-bounce. If we wish to return this incoming ball with underspin, we are imparting spin in the very same direction that the ball is already spinning -- we are simply adding to the existing spin present.

However, if we wish to impart topspin to the incoming ball, not only do we need to change the direction of the ball, we must also change the spin direction of the ball. We must overcome the incoming topspin to reverse the spin direction to put our own topspin on the ball. This requires more effort than simply going in the same direction as the incoming spin.

 

[Curious]

@IowaGuy @mad dog1


Agreed, hitting topspin appears to take more effort than underspin -- all else being equal.

Gravity and anatomy could very well both be factors. However, there is an important factor that I do not believe has yet been mentioned in this thread. I assume that the OP is hitting balls from the machine after they have bounced on his side. The ball will always have topspin after the bounce (regardless of the pre-bounce spin type). Quite often the RPMs will be considerably greater post-bounce than pre-bounce. If we wish to return this incoming ball with underspin, we are imparting spin in the very same direction that the ball is already spinning -- we are simply adding to the existing spin present.

However, if we wish to impart topspin to the incoming ball, not only do we need to change the direction of the ball, we must also change the spin direction of the ball. We must overcome the incoming topspin to reverse the spin direction to put our own topspin on the ball. This requires more effort than simply going in the same direction as the incoming spin.

Of course. Great point, attention to detail.

 

[Pete Player]

I have thbh, and my experience that the bh slice is clear less tiring than the thbh.
My problem with it, that guys with big fh can attak my slice.

Could it be, that you use too little your trunk to have enough weight on your slice?

The taxing of 2hbh is very logical, cause the distance your racket moves is directly proportional to the amount you turn your shoulders with your core and the total distance of your racket travelling is shorter than in 1hbh.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[FiReFTW]

There are many small things that affect it as @SystemicAnomaly mentioned, but the biggest and most obvious is simply that you are swinging fast on your topspin backhand, while on your slice you really are not, and you are basically only moving ur bodyweight forward and hitting a very "controlled" swing, otherwise the slice would end up in the backfence, so I don't even comprehend how we are even discussing this topic anymore and how some people actually claim slice is equal or more taxing, it just blows my mind seriously..

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

^^ On average, the swing speed (or RHS) could very well be less for the slice than the topspin. OTOH, many of us can hit some vicious low-trajectory BH slice shots with fairly high ball speeds that have high spin rates. It requires a high RHS to achieve this. I may be wrong but I believe that that it is still easier to achieve this than a comparable topspin BH shot. Note that Rafa and Roger can average some 3700 RPM on the BH slice. Some of Rafa's slices are greater than 4200 RPM while Roger often exceeds 5000 RPM.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/public/avancedtennis/john_yandell/modern_pro_slice_1/

 

[FiReFTW]

^^ On average, the swing speed (or RHS) could very well be less for the slice than the topspin. OTOH, many of us can hit some vicious low-trajectory BH slice shots with fairly high ball speeds that have high spin rates. It requires a high RHS to achieve this. I may be wrong but I believe that that it is still easier to achieve this than a comparable topspin BH shot. Note that Rafa and Roger can average some 3700 RPM on the BH slice. Some of Rafa's slices are greater than 4200 RPM while Roger often exceeds 5000 RPM.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/public/avancedtennis/john_yandell/modern_pro_slice_1/

Thats true but ur also taking the topspin and slicing in the direction of topspin on a slice, while if u hit a topspin ur countering that rotation, so I would still say ur not quite swinging just as fast as on some topspin groundstrokes, tho its true that sometimes you do hit with quite a bit of rhs aswell on slice and swing quite downwards and really add some vicious backspin, tho its quite hard to control that shot till ur quite a high level or if ur slice is one of ur best shots and you put alot of time into it. But I agree ur using less energy in any case, ur using ur whole body for a topspin backhand pushing rotating and all, while a slice is a more linear shot where u put ur bodyweight into the shot but not really as explosive as a topspin is, and also working with gravity down not against it up.
You also can afford to hit the slice weaker, cuz even if u slice casual and not a ton of backspin it still has enough and if the trajectory is low its gonna bounce low and not be so easy to deal with while if u hit a topspin shot weak its going to be a very easy shot for ur opponent.

Im pretty sure most people could go out and slice 200 shots in a row and feel much less physically tired than if they hit 200 topspin backhands.

 

[snvplayer]

What's the direction of their swing path (slice backhand)? From high to low, or horizontally.

What's the direction of topspin backhand swing path? Low to high although their backswing may start high - meaning they are working against gravity.

How so?

 

[SinjinCooper]

How so?

Because lowering is a lot less high-exertion than lowering and then driving upwards. The recovery phase is also lower exertion than an athletic drive upwards, and can be executed with much less stress to the joints and musculature, since recovery from a lowered, stretched position can be executed at typical game-flow pace without hurting your effectiveness, while a BH drive's push must be executed athletically or the BH suffers.

To all concerned: this isn't something you need to trust any one person's "opinion" here for. There are a bazillion vids out there of the highest-level 50's, 60's, 70's and beyond players out there, all of whom are invested in staying effective while being kind to their energy systems, joints, and muscles. It'll take very little searching to realize which strokes rule the roost when it comes to this stuff.

Want to rule the roost as a senior player some day? Start working on your slice serve, slice backhand, approach shots, and net game in middle age.

 

[Limpinhitter]

Because lowering is a lot less high-exertion than lowering and then driving upwards. The recovery phase is also lower exertion than an athletic drive upwards, and can be executed with much less stress to the joints and musculature, since recovery from a lowered, stretched position can be executed at typical game-flow pace without hurting your effectiveness, while a BH drive's push must be executed athletically or the BH suffers.

To all concerned: this isn't something you need to trust any one person's "opinion" here for. There are a bazillion vids out there of the highest-level 50's, 60's, 70's and beyond players out there, all of whom are invested in staying effective while being kind to their energy systems, joints, and muscles. It'll take very little searching to realize which strokes rule the roost when it comes to this stuff.

Want to rule the roost as a senior player some day? Start working on your slice serve, slice backhand, approach shots, and net game in middle age.

I don't agree. If you have good technique, the amount of exertion it takes to hit a one handed backhand slice and a topspin one-handed backhand is virtually identical.

 

[philosoup]

Doesn't matter how hard you try to slice. You won't need the same amount of energy for slice as it for topspin to get the ball leave the racquet at the same horizontal speed and the same amount of spin. This sounds like a nice physics problem for a student of physics class. But would we typically need the so much horizontal speed for slice? No, otherwise it'd go long. This is not so convoluted.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

@IowaGuy

Doesn't matter how hard you try to slice. You won't need the same amount of energy for slice as it for topspin to get the ball leave the racquet at the same horizontal speed and the same amount of spin. This sounds like a nice physics problem for a student of physics class...

For now, let's put aside the anatomical/physiological -- different muscle/joint recruitment could account for exertion differences between the 2 strokes.

Is gravity the major factor here? Gravity assist for the underspin stroke vs working against gravity for the topspin stroke? Or is spin type the primary factor as I suggested in post #22? More exertion to reverse the incoming spin to produce a topspin reply rather than merely using the incoming spin to keep the ball spinning in the same direction for an underspin reply? Reversing the spin certainly seems like it should require greater effort.

The physics could very well tell us that both are factors. The physics Powerpoint presentation in the OP might suggest that either or both are factors. If (significant) topspin requires greater exertion than hitting flat, would hitting with underspin require even less exertion?

 

[jga111]

To me, the method of generating racquet head speed should be the same for topspin and underspin backhands - rotation of the upper body and rotation of the arm. The main difference is the swing path - hitting up to contact, or hitting down to contact. So, I don't see a good reason for one to be significantly more tiring than the other.

I’ll tell you the main difference;
TS OHBH requires more weight transfer onto the front foot, and a lot more uncoil energy. Slice doesn’t require ANY of these things to the same extent. It’s that simple

 

[Limpinhitter]

I’ll tell you the main difference;
TS OHBH requires more weight transfer onto the front foot, and a lot more uncoil energy. Slice doesn’t require ANY of these things to the same extent. It’s that simple

No. If you have good technique, they are virtually the same stroke coming from different directions, as I explained above.

 

[IowaGuy]

Has anyone ever seen any measurement of RHS on a slice vs. topspin OHBH? How fast is the racket actually moving/accelerating in these shots?

I've been studying some slo-mo of Wawrinka (who, according to a New York Times Magazine analysis had the fastest backhand at Wimbledon 2014, one-handed or two. His DTL backhands averaged 78 mph!).

His topspin BH, as most of you have probably seen, has a massive coil and deep bend in front leg. He exerts major force on this shot! (which makes sense, if it's one of the biggest on the tour).

His slice, OTOH, is more effortless. Basically looks like he gets into position and lets the racket head do much of the work. So, overcoming gravity on the low-to-high swing of the topspin seems reasonable for some % of added force needed for the topspin vs. slice BH, at least for Wawrinka.

Good slices at 2:55 and 3:25. Good backhands at 2:30, 3:30, and 3:53:

Another video of a Wawrinka slice (might be a service return, can't tell for sure)

 

[IowaGuy]

However, Wawrinka's slice is a little weak (IMHO), compared to Fed or Dimitrov. They (on some slices where they're trying to be offensive) seem to take major cuts at the ball. Check Dimitrov, for example, he really goes after this slice! So, might depend on the particular player as well as the general biomechanics of the shot.

 

[jga111]

No. If you have good technique, they are virtually the same stroke coming from different directions, as I explained above.

Sorry but with respect that is rubbish.

I guess it depends how much TS you want. If you’re going for 100revs then yeah go for the same focussing on swing path. But if you want in the 1000s range then you need SPEED. RHS. You will not generate fast RHS from just arming it or minimal weight transfer (which is the case MORE OFTEN THAN NOT with slice). You need to push MORE onto the front foot AND more coil (if grip is more extreme). You can identify more visibly when you see the energy expended by Gasquet and Thiem (they burn) to the more effortless looking (Fed, eastern grip but still very heavy transfer). When these players slice, their back foot is less active.

 

[Tennease]

What about drive slice ohbh? I often hit very powerful ohbh drive, and my coach told me it is actually a slice. It has relatively flat trajectory, barely clears the net and skids of the court. My opponents often completely miss the ball due to the fast skidding ball. It's so easy to hit compared to topspin, and it has some sort of side spin instead of under spin or Topspin. I think the ball spins from about 8 to 2 o'clock.

 

[Pete Player]

One key element overlooked time after time on a topspin bh is the upper body orientation going from a forward lean to upright or leaning slightly back. The faster the arm and hand releases the more you need to counter balance the momentum. To achieve that you need to push with the front leg hard, yet it looks like being just bent and a post.

Gravity is also used for the topspin in the early acceleration. The push starts before the racket reached the low point.

Slice is possible to do with basically hand only, but it is more effective,if the body acts similarly to topspin shot. Wawrinka has way less the forearm involved in his slice and uses uncoiling the trunk more than many others in his backhand as well.


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On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer

 

[IowaGuy]

Watching Australian Open, Thiem playing.

Announcer:
Nice to see Thiem hitting slices and not just relying on topspin backhand. Doesn’t take as much out of you either, just hitting a little slice shot.

 

[user92626]

Slice is the old man's tool. It's much weaker and slower than the regular topspin BH. In ATP nobody loses to the slice alone.

Same thing in recreation, above a certain level the slice by itself cannot hurt anybody.

 

[Raul_SJ]

Recently purchased a ball machine and have been doing drills to hone my OHBH topspin and slice. Very quickly I noticed that my OHBH topspin is much more tiring (~100 balls in a row) than the slice.

Where exactly do you feel the fatigue? Knees? Arm?

 

[Wise one]

Doesn't matter how hard you try to slice. You won't need the same amount of energy for slice as it for topspin to get the ball leave the racquet at the same horizontal speed and the same amount of spin. This sounds like a nice physics problem for a student of physics class. But would we typically need the so much horizontal speed for slice? No, otherwise it'd go long. This is not so convoluted.

This is correct. Topspin requires a little more effort, but with proper form the difference is not that great.

 

[Wise one]

Slice is the old man's tool. It's much weaker and slower than the regular topspin BH. In ATP nobody loses to the slice alone.

Same thing in recreation, above a certain level the slice by itself cannot hurt anybody.

Not at all. I can slice really hard on the backhand (forehand too).

 

[user92626]

Not at all. I can slice really hard on the backhand (forehand too).

harder than ATP pro's, who never seem to be able to win any point with slicing?

 

[Wise one]

harder than ATP pro's, who never seem to be able to win any point with slicing?

Many of them use a Continental grip, which limits their power. I use the Eastern grip.