Brad Gilbert - Was he a baller?

dryeagle

Rookie
More accomplished as coach and ESPN commentator. As a player, always here the words “pusher” and “winning ugly.” But he did get up to #4 ranking in 1990 and has some big time scalps like Becker, McEnroe and Agassi in prime. Not pushing his way into the upper stratosphere of the game.

What else could be said about his playing days? How did he take the best down? What was his strategy against lesser players?
 
Baller, maybe. Thinker, for sure.

If you'd like to truly understand his strategy and game plan, reading the book Winning Ugly would be a great start. Although it is a sort of tennis manual for the recreational player, he uses himself as an example of how as a player he would beat tougher opponents who had more "tennis skills" by using his strengths against his opponents weaknesses.

Most players go into a match just hoping to play well, and they figure that if they play well they will win and if the don't it is more likely that they'll lose. Gilbert knew that this is not the best way to think of a match. He knew that he could beat better players, even if he wasn't playing particularly well that day.

Brad Gilbert would start the match hours or even days before the actual match began. He would do this by sizing his opponent. He would research not only their strengths and weaknesses but also their tendencies and by being prepared for the "outer variables" that one may encounter during a tennis match against specific opponents he was always ready for what was to come.

For example, he knew McEnroe's game probably even better than McEnroe himself. He knew that when McEnroe was down in a match, he would use the crowd to distract his opponents, and basically threw a show which would delay the match, get his opponent to relax and drop their guard and then take control of the match. The funny thing is that his opponents would not even see it coming.

Gilbert knew this "show" was inevitable, and his strategy was to use McEnroe's own strength (getting the crowd riled up) to his advantage. Instead of being upset with McEnroe's showmanship or even worse becoming a part of the audience, Gilbert would keep his focus and would even actually keep hitting some serves or shadow swinging to keep himself from cooling down. When McEnroe would realize his best "shot" didn't work against Gilbert, he had nothing left to win with.

Two more things that Gilbert would do are:

1. He would go to the opponents strength to neutralize it. For example, if his opponent's best shot happened to be the forehand crosscourt, he would hit to the forehand on purpose and would be ready to take the toughest blow from his opponent and basically just block it back. The funny thing about tennis players, is that when they hit their best shot and the ball comes right back, they tend to overhit or under hit the next shot. When a player uses his most powerful weapon and they receive a neutralizing shot back, they tend to not be able to handle it.

2. Gilbert was a master at playing the score. Tennis is a mental game, most of the match is won between points and every player has to fight in an emotional battle. Gilbert had a way to strategize each point depending on the score to maximize his chances of winning. For example, anytime the score reads 30-something, players are faced with what he called a "set up" point, and the best way to deal with a situation where the score has "30" on it, is to play a traditional point. First serve in, no drop shots, no lobs, no funky business, just play a high percentage point and taking his strength (forehand) to their weakness (backhand). If his opponent threw a winner, then so be it, Gilbert was not about to lose any set up points for going for broke or trying something fancy. By winning more "set up" points and set up games (when game score reaches 4) than his opponents, Gilbert would always have an overall advantage in a match.

Ultimately Gilbert would always do what most tennis players are reluctant to do. Mental homework.
 
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I get cramps

Semi-Pro
Players with at least 400 consecutive weeks in the top 30 who have played only two quarterfinals in Grand Slam tournaments.

I could only find three players who meet those characteristics:

Brad Gilbert.
Emilio Sánchez.
Gilles Simon.



Let's see if you can help me to find others.
 
"Winning Ugly".

As relevent today as it was when Brad was playing.

1/ Tennis is primarly a sport of "mental prowess".
2/ The most successful players are the ones who can identify their opponent's weaknesses and exploit them to their own advantage.
3/ The most successful players have a well defined and proven process that works for them that they stick to religiously.

By his own admission, Brad Gilbert overachieved as a tennis player. We should all be so lucky.
 

AnOctorokForDinner

Talk Tennis Guru
Baller, maybe. Thinker, for sure.

If you'd like to truly understand his strategy and game plan, reading the book Winning Ugly would be a great start. Although it is a sort of tennis manual for the recreational player, he uses himself as an example of how as a player he would beat tougher opponents who had more "tennis skills" by using his strengths against his opponents weaknesses.

Most players go into a match just hoping to play well, and they figure that if they play well they will win and if the don't it is more likely that they'll lose. Gilbert knew that this is not the best way to think of a match. He knew that he could beat better players, even if he wasn't playing particularly well that day.

Brad Gilbert would start the match hours or even days before the actual match began. He would do this by sizing his opponent. He would research not only their strengths and weaknesses but also their tendencies and by being prepared for the "outer variables" that one may encounter during a tennis match against specific opponents he was always ready for what was to come.

For example, he knew McEnroe's game probably even better than McEnroe himself. He knew that when McEnroe was down in a match, he would use the crowd to distract his opponents, and basically threw a show which would delay the match, get his opponent to relax and drop their guard and then take control of the match. The funny thing is that his opponents would not even see it coming.

Gilbert knew this "show" was inevitable, and his strategy was to use McEnroe's own strength (getting the crowd riled up) to his advantage. Instead of being upset with McEnroe's showmanship or even worse becoming a part of the audience, Gilbert would keep his focus and would even actually keep hitting some serves or shadow swinging to keep himself from cooling down. When McEnroe would realize his best "shot" didn't work against Gilbert, he had nothing left to win with.

Two more things that Gilbert would do are:

1. He would go to the opponents strength to neutralize it. For example, if his opponent's best shot happened to be the forehand crosscourt, he would hit to the forehand on purpose and would be ready to take the toughest blow from his opponent and basically just block it back. The funny thing about tennis players, is that when they hit their best shot and the ball comes right back, they tend to overhit or under hit the next shot. When a player uses his most powerful weapon and they receive a neutralizing shot back, they tend to not be able to handle it.

2. Gilbert was a master at playing the score. Tennis is a mental game, most of the match is won between points and every player has to fight in an emotional battle. Gilbert had a way to strategize each point depending on the score to maximize his chances of winning. For example, anytime the score reads 30-something, players are faced with what he called a "set up" point, and the best way to deal with a situation where the score has "30" on it, is to play a traditional point. First serve in, no drop shots, no lobs, no funky business, just play a high percentage point and taking his strength (forehand) to their weakness (backhand). If his opponent threw a winner, then so be it, Gilbert was not about to lose any set up points for going for broke or trying something fancy. By winning more "set up" points and set up games (when game score reaches 4) than his opponents, Gilbert would always have an overall advantage in a match.

Ultimately Gilbert would always do what most tennis players are reluctant to do. Mental homework.

Gilbert was 1-13 against McEnroe btw. Although that one match in 1985 Masters when Mac ended up imploding to lose 5-7 6-4 6-1 was a nice slap. I recall that's what prompted him to take the half-a-year sabbatical.
 
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Players with at least 400 consecutive weeks in the top 30 who have played only two quarterfinals in Grand Slam tournaments.

I could only find three players who meet those characteristics:

Brad Gilbert.
Emilio Sánchez.
Gilles Simon.



Let's see if you can help me to find others.


Not wanting to be picky, but how are you sourcing your stats? Are you sure you mean top 30? Or consecutive weeks? I don't think any of the players meet your criteria because of that stipulation...

Brad Gilbert: 29 October '84 - 17 February 1992 = 329 weeks
Emilio Sanchez: 19 May '86 - 15 February '93 = 319 weeks
Gilles Simon: 21 March '11 - 26 May '14 = 148 weeks


Of players you haven't mentioned, I think Eliot Teltscher's the closest I can find. (24 September '79 - 20 January '86 = 271 weeks).



[All stats taken from UTS & ATPTour]
 

I get cramps

Semi-Pro
Not wanting to be picky, but how are you sourcing your stats? Are you sure you mean top 30? Or consecutive weeks? I don't think any of the players meet your criteria because of that stipulation...

Brad Gilbert: 29 October '84 - 17 February 1992 = 329 weeks
Emilio Sanchez: 19 May '86 - 15 February '93 = 319 weeks
Gilles Simon: 21 March '11 - 26 May '14 = 148 weeks


Of players you haven't mentioned, I think Eliot Teltscher's the closest I can find. (24 September '79 - 20 January '86 = 271 weeks).



[All stats taken from UTS & ATPTour]

By heart and in a rush and as a consequence I made a fool of myself.

Thank you for pointing out my serious error and for the information you provide.
 

jrepac

Hall of Fame
Gilbert was 1-13 against McEnroe btw. Although that one match in 1985 Masters when Mac ended up imploding to lose 5-7 6-4 6-1 was a nice slap. I recall that's what prompted him to take the half-a-year sabbatical.
Yup! I don't know what Mac was thinking at the time. But wasn't that '86? Can't say I'm a fan of BG. Something about the guy just bugged me. Still, he could give some guys fits (Becker and Agassi, for instance)
 
I used to play tennis in red clay with a 5.0 player in his 50's when I was in my early 30s and he grew up in California near Brad Gilbert and was actually friends with Brad's younger brother.

Aside from kicking my 4$$ all the time, he would tell me stories from back in the day.
One thing that I remember him saying about Brad Gilbert is that he knew every single other junior player. Their rankings, how the ranking system worked and even knew what would happen to rankings depending on different win-lose scenarios.

Also, another funny thing is that he would know (by how the rating system worked back in his day) that some matches could affect a player's ranking more than others. And that sometimes, it was a better idea to drop a match to come out ahead, given the inter-dynamics of the ranking system.

From an early age, he understood the game's rules and most importantly, his opponents.
 

dkmura

Professional
Beyond all of Gilbert's mental game, I recall he was effective at absorbing power and redirecting it in his prime. His serve was hitchy, but effective and the man could setup his volleys. Gilbert used his forehand as a weapon, while his backhand was steady. Lots of opponents underestimated his game, and Gilbert made them pay.
 

big ted

Legend
I always remember Gilbert playing Lendl in some tournament. Gilbert has the whole court on an easy overhead inside the service line. Goes right at Lendl, but misses unfortunately. Lendl gives a glare. Gilbert a smirk.

back in the day before gilbert had all the twitter followers (i guess he was more accessible) i actually emailed him after i read his book
and asked why he never beat lendl and he replied back something like "to this day i have no idea " lol
 

travlerajm

Talk Tennis Guru
Players with at least 400 consecutive weeks in the top 30 who have played only two quarterfinals in Grand Slam tournaments.

I could only find three players who meet those characteristics:

Brad Gilbert.
Emilio Sánchez.
Gilles Simon.



Let's see if you can help me to find others.
In other words, he was a best-of-3 specialist, kind of like Zverev.
 

Mr.Lob

G.O.A.T.
back in the day before gilbert had all the twitter followers (i guess he was more accessible) i actually emailed him after i read his book
and asked why he never beat lendl and he replied back something like "to this day i have no idea " lol

Gilbert's book was a really good read. He came really close to beating Lendl once., that I recall from reading his book. Choked I think. In the locker room after the match Lendl told Gilbert something along the lines of that if he ever lost to Gilbert, he'd know it would be time to retire from tennis.

I think you were a member at the time, but Tennis Warehouse had some kind of promotion to where you could ask Brad Gilbert a question in one of the TTW threads. I liked the sunglasses he wore, so asked what brand. He answered and said Nike's, along with some other commentary. Seems like a pretty cool guy.
 

Mustard

Bionic Poster
Brad Gilbert's best moment as a tennis player was his 1989 Cincinnati run to the title. He beat Sampras (6-7, 6-3, 6-4), Chang (3-6, 7-6, 6-3), Becker (3-6, 6-3, 6-4) and Edberg (6-4, 2-6, 7-6) in succession. Beating Becker from 2 sets down (2-6, 6-7, 7-6, 7-5, 6-1) in the 1987 US Open fourth round is next. Third is either his 1990 Wimbledon run to the quarter finals (where old nemesis Becker took him out 6-4, 6-4, 6-1), or reaching the Cincinnati final in 1990 when defending his title (this time Edberg battered Gilbert 6-1, 6-1, avenging the previous year's final loss).

Yup! I don't know what Mac was thinking at the time. But wasn't that '86? Can't say I'm a fan of BG. Something about the guy just bugged me. Still, he could give some guys fits (Becker and Agassi, for instance)
It was in January 1986, but considered part of the 1985 tennis year officially. McEnroe beat Gilbert 13 times out of 14, but the one Gilbert win sent McEnroe into a 6-month sabbatical from tennis, after which McEnroe (who had been world number 2) never got higher than number 4 again.

True. No matter how you put it, he would never even be close to winning a slam.
He would have needed a lot of luck. The best of 5 format makes it harder too.
 

CVT

Rookie
I recall watching Gilbert beat a player who seemed much better (I think it was Krickstein or Cahill). The other player was crushing balls and had much more classic power drives. Gilbert would just return shots like a metronome. None of his shots would put his opponent under much pressure - but his were slow, deep, and very consistent. He came from 1 set down to win in 3. I remember leaving the stadium wondering how he won that match.
 

buscemi

Hall of Fame
Brad Gilbert's best moment as a tennis player was his 1989 Cincinnati run to the title. He beat Sampras (6-7, 6-3, 6-4), Chang (3-6, 7-6, 6-3), Becker (3-6, 6-3, 6-4) and Edberg (6-4, 2-6, 7-6) in succession. Beating Becker from 2 sets down (2-6, 6-7, 7-6, 7-5, 6-1) in the 1987 US Open fourth round is next. Third is either his 1990 Wimbledon run to the quarter finals (where old nemesis Becker took him out 6-4, 6-4, 6-1), or reaching the Cincinnati final in 1990 when defending his title (this time Edberg battered Gilbert 6-1, 6-1, avenging the previous year's final loss).

Beating Wheaton and Sampras back-to-back at Queen's Club in 1992 is another fun result, although he fell in the SF.
 

Gizo

Hall of Fame
Gilbert was certainly a far better player than he paints himself as (clearly a marketing ploy to make out that he won nearly entirely on smarts and mental toughness and not on talent). There's no way that a player can have as much success and climb as high in the rankings as he did without being talented - we're talking about a sport in which which most people that try to turn pro and establish pro careers fail to break even and don't make a particularly lofty net profit at all.

I thought that he had a very good forehand, was a good volleyer and moved well. He hit with excellent accuracy and placement, and was especially strong at controlling and altering the pace of the ball. His ability to make opponents hit shots that they didn't want to hit and drive them crazy was pretty funny. David Wheaton, who he nearly came to blows with at the Grand Slam Cup in 1990, was a notable example. His 2nd serve was a clear weakness.

Also his tendency to constantly berate himself loudly on court after hitting errors ('why did I hit down the line, why didn't I go cross court' or comments along those lines) was also irritating to a lot of opponents. The fact that he knew off by heart the full prize money breakdown of every tournament was funny, as was the fact that he labelled reaching the 1990 Grand Slam Cup final (he got in because of Agassi's withdrawal) and earning prize money of $ 1 million as the peak of his career.
 
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CVT

Rookie
Gilbert had a really unusual backhand. It looked like he was hitting it with an open face with an upward swing. In theory, that should sail every ball long. Instead, his shot had a sort of chip slice with a bit of topspin. I realize this is a contradiction, but that is the best I can do in explaining his backhand. It created pressure because of its depth and consistency, but it didn't bring much firepower. He was definitely a grinder.
 

kevin qmto

Hall of Fame
Gilbert had a really unusual backhand. It looked like he was hitting it with an open face with an upward swing. In theory, that should sail every ball long. Instead, his shot had a sort of chip slice with a bit of topspin. I realize this is a contradiction, but that is the best I can do in explaining his backhand. It created pressure because of its depth and consistency, but it didn't bring much firepower. He was definitely a grinder.
Great example of that backhand is at 2:38 in the video above. It looks like he’s gonna hit a slice all the way, then bam, it’s actually topspin.

he doesn’t do that all the time though, check out the backhand pass at 16:18 in the same video.
 
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CVT

Rookie
Just found this on Youtube. It shows it very clearly. His racquet head is quite open in both the preparation and seemingly even at contact. His upward swing compensates to create spin. The modern swing from players like Wawrinka is more closed throughout.
 
Gilbert was certainly a far better player than he paints himself as (clearly a marketing ploy to make out that he won nearly entirely on smarts and mental toughness and not on talent). There's no way that a player can have as much success and climb as high in the rankings as he did without being talented - we're talking about a sport in which which most people that try to turn pro and establish pro careers fail to break even and don't make a particularly lofty net profit at all.

I thought that he had a very good forehand, was a good volleyer and moved well. He hit with excellent accuracy and placement, and was especially strong at controlling and altering the pace of the ball. His ability to make opponents hit shots that they didn't want to hit and drive them crazy was pretty funny. David Wheaton, who he nearly came to blows with at the Grand Slam Cup in 1990, was a notable example. His 2nd serve was a clear weakness.

Also his tendency to constantly berate himself loudly on court after hitting errors ('why did I hit down the line, why didn't I go cross court' or comments along those lines) was also irritating to a lot of opponents. The fact that he knew off by heart the full prize money breakdown of every tournament was funny, as was the fact that he labelled reaching the 1990 Grand Slam Cup final (he got in because of Agassi's withdrawal) and earning prize money of $ 1 million as the peak of his career.
I agree. To add, mental game and strategy is very overrated. Gilbert had tremendous, controlled leverage on his groundstrokes with hip/shoulder coordination. An outstanding rally ball that he could shift gears on. McEnroe said he "just waves at the ball." Wrong. Gilbert only looked like a pusher. His proper mechanics were weirdly hidden
 
Gilbert had a really unusual backhand. It looked like he was hitting it with an open face with an upward swing. In theory, that should sail every ball long. Instead, his shot had a sort of chip slice with a bit of topspin. I realize this is a contradiction, but that is the best I can do in explaining his backhand. It created pressure because of its depth and consistency, but it didn't bring much firepower. He was definitely a grinder.

It's because spin is basically related to the difference between face and path. If u can go up enough with a slightly open face it's topspin. Easy to see if u mark up a ball.

In table tennis u can see neubauer using this shovelling type technique off slice balls and although the rubber contributed to reversing the spin u can do it hardbat to hardbat which is more similar to tennis.

Lot easier to do off slower or slice balls as u don't have to worry too much about overcoming the incoming spin. In neubaers case, slice helped him due to his rubbers properties.
 

Bambooman

Hall of Fame
Those old clips are so boring years later. So little tennis actually happens. Amazingly old fans will insist that those matches were "exciting". Certainly classic matches did happen but still.
 
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FD3S

Hall of Fame
Those old clips are so boring years later. So little tennis actually happens. Amazingly old fans will insist that those matches were "exciting". Certainly classic matches did happen but still.
There are many, many old matches out there that were indeed phenomenally exciting. That said, none of them will involve Brad Gilbert and that was 100% by design. His style of play was built entirely around maximizing his chances of winning/making money and he was more than happy to leave the business of entertaining the crowd to the rest of the tour; needless to say, it worked for him.
 

Jack the Hack

Hall of Fame
There is a thread in the main pro player channel here asking people what they think of Cameron Norrie. Brad Gilbert was the Cameron Norrie of his day. He knew what his strengths and limitations were, was always in good shape, scrapped and hustled hard, and overachieved. Pretty much the same formula for both players.
 

Bambooman

Hall of Fame
It's because spin is basically related to the difference between face and path. If u can go up enough with a slightly open face it's topspin. Easy to see if u mark up a ball.

In table tennis u can see neubauer using this shovelling type technique off slice balls and although the rubber contributed to reversing the spin u can do it hardbat to hardbat which is more similar to tennis.

Lot easier to do off slower or slice balls as u don't have to worry too much about overcoming the incoming spin. In neubaers case, slice helped him due to his rubbers properties.
Have you heard of Jimmy Connors?
 

CVT

Rookie
I've been thinking about it - his swing is sort of like the face/path mechanics of hitting a kick serve. I guess that could work, and maybe it explains the reliability too.
 

McGradey

Hall of Fame
There is a thread in the main pro player channel here asking people what they think of Cameron Norrie. Brad Gilbert was the Cameron Norrie of his day. He knew what his strengths and limitations were, was always in good shape, scrapped and hustled hard, and overachieved. Pretty much the same formula for both players.

Nice comparison; only thing I'd add would be that Norrie doesn't strike me as a Gilbert-esque master tactician, he's just very good at consistently executing his gameplan. And the delta between his forehand and backhand seems to be very difficult to deal with. As an opponent you receive a completely different delivery from each side.

Some interesting reading in this thread!
 
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jrepac

Hall of Fame
Gilbert was quite the character....he was very consistent, could change it up and not a bad volleyer either. He had a way of defusing some of the power players...though he could never crack Lendl. The USO win over Boris in '87 was dramatic, he totally frustrated Boris down the stretch. Re-watched a lot of the subsequent QF vs. Connors. He played quite well actually... a few shots here or there...one ball he chose not to hit that landed in...Connors had to play a pretty tight match to get past him.
 

dryeagle

Rookie
While he had great results as a coach, it seems like he had falling out with Agassi in 02 and Roddick in 04. Did the top guys have enough of him after some time?
 

Gizo

Hall of Fame
Roddick interviewed Gilbert recently in his podcast, which I think is excellent, although I haven't been able to watch that segment yet. I also want to catch the segment with Davenport when I get a chance.

At the time, I believe that Gilbert clashed with Roddick's father Jerry, over money (a financial contract) and scheduling. Jerry Roddick apparently didn't get involved with tactics and match strategies, knowing that he was completely out of his depth there, but had a major influence in other areas, notably when it came to finances, coaches and contracts with them, scheduling etc. And apparently Gilbert wanted Roddick to spend December 2004 training intensely instead of entering charity events and exhibitions, which was a major source of disagreement - Gilbert wasn't happy that they only worked together for something like 4 days during the 2003 off-season.

He was definitely an acquired taste. He was of course ideal for Agassi. The fact that, as per Agassi's autobiography, he showed great enthusiasm and determination even when they entered those 2 challengers at the end of 1997 (approaching them as if they were majors), was to his credit. Sampras on the other hand couldn't have put up with him, and his tendency to analyse every shot to death, as he did out on loud on court during his own playing career (much to the annoyance of many of his opponents including Mac).

During the last couple of years of his time coaching Agassi, I recall reading rumours (they may have just been that with nothing concrete there) that Graf didn't like him, spending time with him in the players' box and elsewhere when required to etc. - she didn’t look comfortable sitting next to him in the stands. Gil Reyes often looked like he didn't enjoy sitting next to Gilbert (with his frequent habit of not shutting up !) either, and I recall Mac joking in the commentary booth about the fact that there were empty seats around Gilbert during the (I think) 2001 USO QF vs. Sampras.
 
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