Coach Aggressively Accusing Player Of Giving Lessons..

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

If it had been 1 v 1 it very well could have just been two people practicing together. As is the case when you’ve joined one other party to the court.

But I seriously doubt you and a partner ever go to the court to play singles, then just start hitting with a random guy instead of playing with each other.

The way I interpret @Raul_SJ's telling of the story, the Coach only reacted once he heard the guy giving advice:

and he occasionally was giving us a few tips as we rallied.

This obnoxious coach from the neighboring court comes over and tells the guy, "Hey! Lessons are not allowed!".

That's a surface read and I'm taking him at his word. Perhaps the advice was irrelevant and Coach would have complained anyway. But that's not how it reads.

 

[Creighton]

Just curious, are you a native English speaker? His original scenario closes with:

“And it is a grey area anyway. We have the court for an hour. Even if we decided to hire this guy, it is our business. No harm done.”

The “even if” there communicates that they did NOT hire the guy, but that it would be irrelevant even if they did hire him.

There are TWO pieces of information there.

One is factual — they did not hire the guy.

Two is opinion — it wouldn’t have mattered anyway even if they hypothetically hired him.

Factually, there is no difference between the two stories.

What are you talking about? If they actually hired him they did in fact break the rules.

 

[Raul_SJ]

The way I interpret @Raul_SJ's telling of the story, the Coach only reacted once he heard the guy giving advice:

That's a surface read and I'm taking him at his word. Perhaps the advice was irrelevant and Coach would have complained anyway. But that's not how it reads.

Don't know what set him off. We only had three balls. The college level player was at the baseline and we two 3.5 players were volleying. Sometimes he would stop for a few seconds and explain why we were missing.

The bottom line is that Coach has no special authority to aggressively snoop around other courts and accuse other players of paid coaching. His arrangement with the city is likely as an independent contractor; probably does not even work for the city. Even if he did work for the city, he cannot aggressively question with zero evidence.

 

[happyandbob]

What are you talking about? If they actually hired him they did in fact break the rules.

He's explicitly saying that he did not hire the guy.

 

[Creighton]

He's explicitly saying that he did not hire the guy.

But if he did hire the guy. He broke the rules.

 

[happyandbob]

But if he did hire the guy. He broke the rules.

Ok troll, glad you agree that if he didn't hire the guy, he didn't break the rules.

 

[Creighton]

Ok troll, glad you agree that if he didn't hire the guy, he didn't break the rules.

Troll? I literally said that in my very first comment in this thread.

You were fine until your last two lines. If coaching isn’t allowed, then yes harm was done. You guys broke the rules.

 

[darkhorse]

I've been on the internet for a long time and I don't think I've ever seen a place with more pedantic arguments than TTW

 

[tennis tom]

I've been on the internet for a long time and I don't think I've ever seen a place with more pedantic arguments than TTW

GOOD WORD! :

"Pedantic is an insulting word used to describe someone who annoys others by correcting small errors, caring too much about minor details, or emphasizing their own expertise especially in some narrow or boring subject matter."​

It should take us through the weekend in fine fettle!

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

It should take us through the weekend in fine fettle!

Reminds me of an AC commercial: G O E T T L: it'll keep you cool but it's hard to spell.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

I've been on the internet for a long time and I don't think I've ever seen a place with more pedantic arguments than TTW

Where else can I display my vast tennis ignorance? Doing it on the court reaches only a few but TTW is vast!

 

[Raul_SJ]

Where else can I display my vast tennis ignorance? Doing it on the court reaches only a few but TTW is vast!

Did not hire the guy. Only hit with him. Did not pay him a penny. Don't know what the confusion is about... Was it a violation to hit with him while he volunteered a few tips? Does that violate the "no coaching" rule? i.e. it is irrelevant whether money is exchanged?

 

[Creighton]

Did not hire the guy. Only hit with him. Did not pay him a penny. Don't know what the confusion is about... Was it a violation to hit with him while he volunteered a few tips? Does that violate the "no coaching" rule? i.e. it is irrelevant whether money is exchanged?

If this is truly just a once in a million occurrence where a 5.0 met up to hit with two 3.5s then there is no violation.

But in your OP you made the claim it should be ok to pay for coaching if you want to and the other coach should mind his business. That is what we are discussing. It isn’t ok to pay for coaching if it’s against the rules. And another coach absolutely has the right to tell others to play by the established rules.

 

[Creighton]

a pro(s) paying money to teach on public courts is paying for the right to reserve specific or quantity of courts for/at a certain time...
i, as a non teacher, can reserve a court in the regular rotation, then choose to do or play with who i want, and they are free to teach or talk, or whatever
now you can argue that you can't have more than X balls on the court, that's fine, as that's potentially a nuisance to other courts...

imagine if you were friends with fedal, and invited him to your club,... but he wasn't allowed to give you tips... lol. probably would still need to pay for fedal's guest fee.

Generally the fees are a way to assist the cost of maintaining the courts.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Did not hire the guy. Only hit with him. Did not pay him a penny. Don't know what the confusion is about... Was it a violation to hit with him while he volunteered a few tips? Does that violate the "no coaching" rule? i.e. it is irrelevant whether money is exchanged?

It was a general comment about me, not necessarily related to this thread. I understand you didn't hire the guy. I've made it clear that I thought Coach was defending his monopoly against a perceived trespasser.

 

[OnTheLine]

Reminds me of an AC commercial: G O E T T L: it'll keep you cool but it's hard to spell.

Hold it .... that company exists somewhere other than Las Vegas?

 

[onehandbh]

The Coach has some arrangement with the City. Do not know the details and whether it is exclusive. Guessing he is an independent contractor

A sign is posted on two of the courts:

"These two courts reserved for classes with Mr Coach , every Wednesday, 7:00 - 8:00...".

Got no problem with this.
There are no "reserved" postings on the other courts.



The Coach has a right to kick players off his two courts on Wednesday nights during his reserved time.

But do not see where he gets off snooping into other courts. His arrangement does not give him blanket authority to obnoxiously question and enforce the general "No lesson" policy on every other court.

Doubtful the city has given him that authority to enforce other courts.
Wouldn't he just be an ordinary citizen in that regard.

Which city did this happen in?

 

[onehandbh]

If it had been 1 v 1 it very well could have just been two people practicing together. As is the case when you’ve joined one other party to the court.

But I seriously doubt you and a partner ever go to the court to play singles, then just start hitting with a random guy instead of playing with each other.

I have occasionally hit with random people I meet at the park. This was on a day I didn't have anyone scheduled to hit with so I just brought a few balls to practice serves and then the random person asked to return my serves and later hit.

Sometimes I don't mind this because they get the balls back to me so I won't have to walk to the other side of the court and pick up the balls.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Hold it .... that company exists somewhere other than Las Vegas?

I hear it on radio ads in SoCal. Very folksy commercials; reminds me of "We'll leave the light on for you" spoken by Tom Bodet for Motel 6.

 

[baowow]

My partner and I walked into the public court.

One guy was coming off the court and we three started hitting. He was at the baseline and we two were volleying at the net. The guy turned out to be an ex college player and he occasionally was giving us a few tips as we rallied.

This obnoxious coach from the neighboring court comes over and tells the guy, "Hey! Lessons are not allowed!". The guy informs him that we don't know each other and are just hitting.

Also note that the guy is new to the area and has never been to these courts before, so the Coach does not know him.

The Coach takes up two courts with 8 players. He is employed or contracted by the city. Basically walks around and watches them hit and says "nice shot". Whatever. Don't have an issue with that.

But this Coach should not be aggressively accusing players of giving lessons. Granted there is a city rule prohibiting lessons but what gives this Coach authority to accuse people? It is not like our hitting partner was camped out on the court for hours with a parade of students coming in.

This Coach needs to back off unless he sees clear evidence of lessons. It is ridiculous.

And it is a grey area anyway. We have the court for an hour. Even if we decided to hire this guy, it is our business. No harm done.

I have dealt with this same issue on multiple occasions where I live (Hall Co Ga). Even when I was feeding balls to my own kid. Not sure what the threat is but I find it super annoying.

 

[Permitlady]

Coaches buy exclusive coaching privileges and have to protect their investment. The crying I have read just now is like crying for being profiled.

Someone being given advice on the courts is evidence.

Someone worlds above a weaker player, without the weaker player being an attractive female, is evidence for coaching.

More than three balls is evidence.

Proof and evidence are two different things I see too many users mix up here. "You have no proof!" You're never going to have proof.

 

[Creighton]

I have occasionally hit with random people I meet at the park. This was on a day I didn't have anyone scheduled to hit with so I just brought a few balls to practice serves and then the random person asked to return my serves and later hit.

Sometimes I don't mind this because they get the balls back to me so I won't have to walk to the other side of the court and pick up the balls.

Yes. This is normal but not what happened in the OP.

 

[onehandbh]

Yes. This is normal but not what happened in the OP.

Sometimes the random strangers also give me an unsolicited tip or two on how to improve my serve.

The next time someone does this, should I kick them off the court for illegal coaching?

 

[tennis tom]

Sometimes the random strangers also give me an unsolicited tip or two on how to improve my serve.

The next time someone does this, should I kick them off the court for illegal coaching?

If it was sound advice that your game benefitted from, surreptitiously slip him a fiver, or, a can of balls, or buy 'em a drink.

 

[Creighton]

Sometimes the random strangers also give me an unsolicited tip or two on how to improve my serve.

The next time someone does this, should I kick them off the court for illegal coaching?

No. Why are you arguing something that's already been decided and not relevant to the discussion with the OP?

 

[Permitlady]

Sometimes the random strangers also give me an unsolicited tip or two on how to improve my serve.

The next time someone does this, should I kick them off the court for illegal coaching?

Whats with the strawman

 

[blakesq]

My partner and I walked into the public court.

One guy was coming off the court and we three started hitting. He was at the baseline and we two were volleying at the net. The guy turned out to be an ex college player and he occasionally was giving us a few tips as we rallied.

This obnoxious coach from the neighboring court comes over and tells the guy, "Hey! Lessons are not allowed!". The guy informs him that we don't know each other and are just hitting.

Also note that the guy is new to the area and has never been to these courts before, so the Coach does not know him.

The Coach takes up two courts with 8 players. He is employed or contracted by the city. Basically walks around and watches them hit and says "nice shot". Whatever. Don't have an issue with that.

But this Coach should not be aggressively accusing players of giving lessons. Granted there is a city rule prohibiting lessons but what gives this Coach authority to accuse people? It is not like our hitting partner was camped out on the court for hours with a parade of students coming in.

This Coach needs to back off unless he sees clear evidence of lessons. It is ridiculous.

And it is a grey area anyway. We have the court for an hour. Even if we decided to hire this guy, it is our business. No harm done.

What gives him the right is you guys letting him say that to you. Next time you tell him to stay out of your business and go pound sand.

 

[zaskar1]

My partner and I walked into the public court.

One guy was coming off the court and we three started hitting. He was at the baseline and we two were volleying at the net. The guy turned out to be an ex college player and he occasionally was giving us a few tips as we rallied.

This obnoxious coach from the neighboring court comes over and tells the guy, "Hey! Lessons are not allowed!". The guy informs him that we don't know each other and are just hitting.

Also note that the guy is new to the area and has never been to these courts before, so the Coach does not know him.

The Coach takes up two courts with 8 players. He is employed or contracted by the city. Basically walks around and watches them hit and says "nice shot". Whatever. Don't have an issue with that.

But this Coach should not be aggressively accusing players of giving lessons. Granted there is a city rule prohibiting lessons but what gives this Coach authority to accuse people? It is not like our hitting partner was camped out on the court for hours with a parade of students coming in.

This Coach needs to back off unless he sees clear evidence of lessons. It is ridiculous.

And it is a grey area anyway. We have the court for an hour. Even if we decided to hire this guy, it is our business. No harm done.

you guys were being nice, and explained that you were just practicing and the guy wasnt coaching
you could have told the coach to "mind his own business"
i guess this coach was just trying to protect his business.
z

 

[FiddlerDog]

The bigger message is that the Coach noticed the massive disparity of your games.
This means you have poor strokes, since it was obvious there is no way in hell the other guy would ever hit with you without being paid.
Take this as motivation to get in shape and improve your game.

The flip side of this experience is when you are getting a lesson and the bystanders don't know it since the superior player is making you look way better than you actually are.
This happened the other day when I was rallying with a WTA player.

 

[Permitlady]

What gives him the right is you guys letting him say that to you. Next time you tell him to stay out of your business and go pound sand.

If you should say you're coaching he can shut you down. Call the parks department. Fine you. You can always lie and say you're not coaching and he can always not have the energy to deal with you. Nevertheless he's entitled to ask you a question.

 

[nyta2]

Don't know what set him off. We only had three balls. The college level player was at the baseline and we two 3.5 players were volleying. Sometimes he would stop for a few seconds and explain why we were missing.

The bottom line is that Coach has no special authority to aggressively snoop around other courts and accuse other players of paid coaching. His arrangement with the city is likely as an independent contractor; probably does not even work for the city. Even if he did work for the city, he cannot aggressively question with zero evidence.

hehe, if i were an instructor trying to protect my claim to exclusively coach at a specific location... that definitely looks like a lesson (especially if he's barking tips from baseline to baseline). but if it were say 1x 5.5 and 2x 4.5... it's harder to tell the difference in skill (in coop hitting), so seems less like a lesson... but looks aside, he's paying for right to teach there, but i'm guessing he's also thinking he has the exclusive right to advertise, market, etc... there (corner the market) - would be interesting to know the behind the scenes if that is part of the agreement with the parks&rec dept. in the end it seems like he was just intimidated by the competition (eg. better instruction? lower cost? etc...). i kinda see where the coach is coming from, but unclear if the arrangement covers scenarios like this (ie. getting "free"/hard-to-prove-if-there-was-an-exchange-of-money-for-teaching tips)

 

[sovertennis]

I've been on the internet for a long time and I don't think I've ever seen a place with more pedantic arguments than TTW

Agreed. Perhaps the mods can set up an additional forum and call it something like "Someone was mean to me and I am an innocent victim".

 

[5sets]

Definitely sounds like a sub par coach feeling his territory is being encroached upon. Perhaps he thought money was being exchanged between hands. Reminds me of a time I was coaching a junior high school kid on some public middle school coarts and a loud, obnoxious out of shape 60 year old ( sorry, just giving a description, no disrespect to older people out there) literally walked onto my court and yelled, “ he’s got the wrong grip!” in an attempt to sabotage a hitting session I was having with a talented 14 year old with a western grip. We just ignored him and he went back to basket feeding his 10 year old students while berating them, I feel bad for their parents.

 

[jm1980]

The college level player was at the baseline and we two 3.5 players were volleying. Sometimes he would stop for a few seconds and explain why we were missing.

If I saw this scene, I too would assume the college level player was being paid to coach the 3.5s