College players in combo league tell me your opinion?

Hi I play here in winston salem, nc and am currently playing in the combo league at 8.5 level. We played a team the other day and played a guy who has a 4.5 rating but played for a division 1 school in 2004? The rules say he should self rate at 5.5 level and he sent an appeal in and was granted special consideration and I would like to know why he was given a 4.5 when the rules clearly state he should be at least 5.0? Many players here are trying to recruit former college players and get them special considerations? Its getting ridiculous! My captain filed a grievance against the guy and was told he was given approval by souhern tennis and we want to know who isnt doing there job correctly? If they are giving consideration to friend then thats unacceptable and some changes need to be made. The player in question lives in winston salem nc and played for Davidson University and graduated in 2004. Please look into this and tell me why a college player was given special consideration to play down and dominate. Also please tell me how my team goes about getting some good former college players rated 4.5 or maybe 4.0 to get us to the nationals next year? Thanks for your time and I look forward to hearing from you soon! This is an email sent to the USTA and I want to hear your opinions on this matter. Why would a collge player be given special consideration?
 

WBF

Hall of Fame
Is that a great D1 school? Did he play top singles?

What if it was a D1 school with a relatively poor team, and he wasn't even a starter? Unless he is just dominating and playing far above the 4.5 level, I find your attitude a bit petty and obnoxious.
 
It isnt petty and I want to know why certain players are given consideration to play below where the rules say they should? He played for the team and was in the singles lineup and is very good! The rules are there for a reason I thought and Davidson has been ranked in the top 75 in division 1 and therefore should be at least 5.0 minimum but isnt? I want to know why the rules are there if they arent gonna stick to them?
 

tennisjudge

New User
did you get your azz beat, thats why you complaining. Just like the other guy said, depends on the team and what spot he played. One thing you can do is go to that website called. collegetennisonline.com. first look for player, than look for school. Print out the necessary documents as needed. Than email or fax to sta (marliyn sherman of sta).
 

WBF

Hall of Fame
usta: you can call it a rule, and you might be right, but in reality it's an arbitrary technicality that you're attempting to use to justify your loss. Do you know how the NTRP works? If so, do you think a 4.5 rating is not accurate in terms of his ability?
 
Thats exactly the player and I did not even play him but watch after mine was over and he is a phenominal doubles player. I play many current and former college players and he can play with them in doubles. Thanks for looking up the records it further shows hes clearly not a 4.5. Mrs. Sherman already knows and wont give me a reason why he was given this special consideration so I need to know who to contact above her? She has to have a boss as well. Someone at southern tennis isnt doing there job correctly.
 
The problem is that college tennis matches are not entered into the USTA database. Neither are pro matches (if the player decides to dabble).

Based on his play as a junior player, he most likely generated the minimum rating of 4.5. With his college play, he would certainly be higher.

Unfortunately, the guidelines are for self-rated players. If the guy is really out of level, the section should make an adjustment given his history.
 

Craig Sheppard

Hall of Fame
That sucks, as I've run into former 5.0 players in the 4.0 ranks. It makes me wonder why would he even want to play? Just to get to Nationals? That seems pretty bush league, but that's what all sandbaggers are anyway. It does sound fishy that any D1 college player would be a 4.5... I don't see the motivation really, there isn't any money involved... the only thing I could see is if a particular club wants to advertise that they have "national champion" or "regional champion" players.
 

JLyon

Hall of Fame
The problem is that college tennis matches are not entered into the USTA database. Neither are pro matches (if the player decides to dabble).

Based on his play as a junior player, he most likely generated the minimum rating of 4.5. With his college play, he would certainly be higher.

Unfortunately, the guidelines are for self-rated players. If the guy is really out of level, the section should make an adjustment given his history.

He self-rated this year so she should have filled out an accurate Player History.

I personally would refile the appeal with th doubles results since he still shows as a self-rate. Something stinks in Southern with this decision. There must be a medical or something. I believe Phil Meador might be a better contact.
 

Jack the Hack

Hall of Fame
It isnt petty and I want to know why certain players are given consideration to play below where the rules say they should? He played for the team and was in the singles lineup and is very good! The rules are there for a reason I thought and Davidson has been ranked in the top 75 in division 1 and therefore should be at least 5.0 minimum but isnt? I want to know why the rules are there if they arent gonna stick to them?

Dude, he has two losses to Appalachian State! We all know that if you lose to that school, you are pretty much worthless... :-o

Anyway, you say that this player was in the singles lineup for Davidson and that they were in the top 75. However, if you check the stats at www.collegetennisonline.com, you will see that he only played three singles matches in four years (with a 1-2 record) and that Davidson was never even close to being ranked in the top 75 at that time (they had a losing record every year he was there). He did have a nice 54-38 record in doubles, but it should be noted that all of these "matches" were pro sets (which is how they play doubles in the NCAA), and none of the wins were over a ranked player or team. In my experience as a former college player and coach, this type of background would indicate that this player probably was on the high end of the 4.5 range, or lower 5.0. If he was better than that, he would have been playing more singles matches and had a winning record. As it stands, it looks like he was never higher than 7th or 8th on his team's ladder (which would be a walk-on player for a school of this level).

The USTA self rate chart does show that he should be set at a 5.5 based on being playing at a Division I school and being under 30. However, these are only guidelines, not rules. Some USTA sections follow these guidelines strictly, some don't. In my section a couple years ago, we tried to get a 36 year old doctor to play on our 4.5 team. He hadn't picked up a racquet since starting medical school (over 10 years earlier), and several of us were taking sets off him in doubles (but he was solid none-the-less). Anyway, it turned out that he had played on the BYU tennis team and was ranked in singles back in the late 80s... and when the league coordinator saw this on his background form, she wouldn't let him play as anything less than a 5.5 (as the guidelines state), even though he was playing no where near that level (and probably never will again). In contrast, another player I know in our section had never played high school or college tennis, and had very little tournament experience. However, he was an unbelievable athlete, was taking personal lessons with a good coach twice a week, and was beating 5.0 players regularly in practice. By the USTA guidelines, with his lack of background, he was eligible to self rate as low as 3.0. In reality, he is playing much better than the former BYU player, but was able to play 4.5 (and got DQ'ed at that level in 3 matches!).

My point is that some section coordinators understand that the USTA self rate chart is a guideline, and will allow for exceptions. I think that they believe that if a person ends up rating too low, the system will catch them and bump them to the next level through dynamic disqualification. I personally believe that abuse of the system with self rated players is the biggest problem within the USTA League. Therefore, I wish there was more uniformity across the nation in the USTA with how they deal with these type of players. However, after several in-depth conversations about this with the coordinators in my section, I have realized that it will never happen. Therefore, be aware of this... and take it or leave it for what it is.
 

SunDog

Rookie
That sucks, as I've run into former 5.0 players in the 4.0 ranks. It makes me wonder why would he even want to play? Just to get to Nationals? That seems pretty bush league, but that's what all sandbaggers are anyway. It does sound fishy that any D1 college player would be a 4.5... I don't see the motivation really, there isn't any money involved... the only thing I could see is if a particular club wants to advertise that they have "national champion" or "regional champion" players.

We have a former D1 doubles specialist (9th best ever at a good school) playing in our 4.0 league. It boggles the mind as to what the motivation is.
 
Dude, he has two losses to Appalachian State! We all know that if you lose to that school, you are pretty much worthless... :-o

Anyway, you say that this player was in the singles lineup for Davidson and that they were in the top 75. However, if you check the stats at www.collegetennisonline.com, you will see that he only played three singles matches in four years (with a 1-2 record) and that Davidson was never even close to being ranked in the top 75 at that time (they had a losing record every year he was there). He did have a nice 54-38 record in doubles, but it should be noted that all of these "matches" were pro sets (which is how they play doubles in the NCAA), and none of the wins were over a ranked player or team. In my experience as a former college player and coach, this type of background would indicate that this player probably was on the high end of the 4.5 range, or lower 5.0. If he was better than that, he would have been playing more singles matches and had a winning record. As it stands, it looks like he was never higher than 7th or 8th on his team's ladder (which would be a walk-on player for a school of this level).

The USTA self rate chart does show that he should be set at a 5.5 based on being playing at a Division I school and being under 30. However, these are only guidelines, not rules. Some USTA sections follow these guidelines strictly, some don't. In my section a couple years ago, we tried to get a 36 year old doctor to play on our 4.5 team. He hadn't picked up a racquet since starting medical school (over 10 years earlier), and several of us were taking sets off him in doubles (but he was solid none-the-less). Anyway, it turned out that he had played on the BYU tennis team and was ranked in singles back in the late 80s... and when the league coordinator saw this on his background form, she wouldn't let him play as anything less than a 5.5 (as the guidelines state), even though he was playing no where near that level (and probably never will again). In contrast, another player I know in our section had never played high school or college tennis, and had very little tournament experience. However, he was an unbelievable athlete, was taking personal lessons with a good coach twice a week, and was beating 5.0 players regularly in practice. By the USTA guidelines, with his lack of background, he was eligible to self rate as low as 3.0. In reality, he is playing much better than the former BYU player, but was able to play 4.5 (and got DQ'ed at that level in 3 matches!).

My point is that some section coordinators understand that the USTA self rate chart is a guideline, and will allow for exceptions. I think that they believe that if a person ends up rating too low, the system will catch them and bump them to the next level through dynamic disqualification. I personally believe that abuse of the system with self rated players is the biggest problem within the USTA League. Therefore, I wish there was more uniformity across the nation in the USTA with how they deal with these type of players. However, after several in-depth conversations about this with the coordinators in my section, I have realized that it will never happen. Therefore, be aware of this... and take it or leave it for what it is.

Excellent post. I didn't want to write out a long post, and am grateful you did.

Some sections take into account that when a former college player returns to tennis (after a 10 year absence) that he won't be able to compete at his former level. In order to maintain higher NTRP tennis, you must be practicing daily 3 to 4 hours. You also should be a peak physical condition (ie. not overweight 20 or more pounds). Then there are the medical conditions (lower back injuries, shoulder injuries, ankle injuries, knee injuries, etc.).

So it may be that they are giving this player the benefit of the doubt.

But as I said in my other post, if his performance is too great, they will adjust him.
 
We played against the WS salem that had RG on it at states. It amazed me how he can pass as a self rate 4.5 as a former Div 1 player with the new USTA self rate guidelines. Another thing that I found shocking was that same WS team had a current Div 1 player ( a jr this year) that was rated a 4.5. All seems kinda shady and makes me question if they properly filled out their elite player background forms.
 

JLyon

Hall of Fame
We played against the WS salem that had RG on it at states. It amazed me how he can pass as a self rate 4.5 as a former Div 1 player with the new USTA self rate guidelines. Another thing that I found shocking was that same WS team had a current Div 1 player ( a jr this year) that was rated a 4.5. All seems kinda shady and makes me question if they properly filled out their elite player background forms.

To simply answer your question no they did not fill out the form correctly, but Southern and USTA refuse to do anything about it. For Southern to allow RG to self-rate 4.5 is a sham. Do not give me this crap that he played on a non-75 team, he won 2/3 of his doubles match at a D1 school, he should grow a set and play 5.0 and I guess tank matches like the true league players. Case in point go to San Antonio, Texas 5.0 League and look at the crap the "Danny Four Five" team did. They obviously tanked every match so they can reform their 4.5 National Champ team again next year, they are now making a mockery of USTA League Tennis much like NorCal 4.0 did last year.
 

hewitt20

New User
whats his name I am also a college player I played for tylers team that won the 8.5 southerns last year and I do not remember playing him.
 

BreakPoint

Bionic Poster
Hi I play here in winston salem, nc and am currently playing in the combo league at 8.5 level. We played a team the other day and played a guy who has a 4.5 rating but played for a division 1 school in 2004? The rules say he should self rate at 5.5 level and he sent an appeal in and was granted special consideration and I would like to know why he was given a 4.5 when the rules clearly state he should be at least 5.0? Many players here are trying to recruit former college players and get them special considerations? Its getting ridiculous! My captain filed a grievance against the guy and was told he was given approval by souhern tennis and we want to know who isnt doing there job correctly? If they are giving consideration to friend then thats unacceptable and some changes need to be made. The player in question lives in winston salem nc and played for Davidson University and graduated in 2004. Please look into this and tell me why a college player was given special consideration to play down and dominate. Also please tell me how my team goes about getting some good former college players rated 4.5 or maybe 4.0 to get us to the nationals next year? Thanks for your time and I look forward to hearing from you soon! This is an email sent to the USTA and I want to hear your opinions on this matter. Why would a collge player be given special consideration?
Wait, so you're complaining about other teams recruiting former college players to play at the 4.5 level as being unfair, cheating, ridiculous, despicable, etc., yet you want to do the same thing? So just because someone else cheats then it makes it OK for you to cheat as well? I hope that's not what you teach your kids.

BTW, out here in NorCal, a former college player only has to rate themselves at 4.5. I guess maybe a NorCal 4.5 level player = a 5.5 level player in NC?
 

just out

New User
It isnt petty and I want to know why certain players are given consideration to play below where the rules say they should? He played for the team and was in the singles lineup and is very good! The rules are there for a reason I thought and Davidson has been ranked in the top 75 in division 1 and therefore should be at least 5.0 minimum but isnt? I want to know why the rules are there if they arent gonna stick to them?


What about 4.0 players who are playing up and don't belong in the 4.5's do you mind beating up on them? I know there are a lot of folks who take these adult "recreational" leagues very seriously but I just can't -- the level and quality of play varies so much within levels anyway. I've played with and against players that are easily +/- half a level away on numerous occasions, why worry about it. So if I'm the 4.5 league champion, king of the 4.5's, what does that really mean, am I the best 4.5 or should I really be playing as a 5.0. :)
 

goober

Legend
What about 4.0 players who are playing up and don't belong in the 4.5's do you mind beating up on them? I know there are a lot of folks who take these adult "recreational" leagues very seriously but I just can't -- the level and quality of play varies so much within levels anyway. I've played with and against players that are easily +/- half a level away on numerous occasions, why worry about it. So if I'm the 4.5 league champion, king of the 4.5's, what does that really mean, am I the best 4.5 or should I really be playing as a 5.0. :)

Basically this is a good mindset to have if you want to maintain your sanity and enjoy tennis.:)
 
whats his name I am also a college player I played for tylers team that won the 8.5 southerns last year and I do not remember playing him.

A friend of mine played against your team in Baton Rouge in January 2007, but that was the 2006 Combo season. They are talking about a guy that was on the Haney team in 2007, but you would not have played against him either way.
 
Top