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Deleted member 716271
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What do you think was a higher level of play Fed Djok in RG 2011 or Nadal Djok in RG 13. Look at the same stats you use for those...
Djokovic 2011 vs Djokovic 2015
- Thread starter Noleberic123
- Start date
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Deleted member 77403
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I personally will go with 2011. 2013 had a deflated third set from Djokovic, which he just gave away, and Nadal started choking a lot when he was going to win it in four. It was the fifth set that was legendary, the rest was good, but nothing special imo.
2011 was crazy from the start. The level of play was just absurd. Federer's greatest clay court level, and Djokovic pretty close to his highest level on clay also.
abmk
Bionic Poster
101 winners+FEs to 41 UEs for Djokovic in RG 11 SF
114 winners+FEs to 75 UEs for DJokovic in RG 13 SF
Yes, Djokovic's level was better on a whole in RG 11 SF, clearly.
He had a terrible 3rd set, for one in the RG 2013 SF.
Its just that he dialled in at the right moment at the end of the 4th set to take it. Nadal was serving for the match, after all.
Djokovic2011
Bionic Poster
If you're asking abmk you should know fine well what the answer will be.
icedevil0289
G.O.A.T.
rome 2006? or are we just talking slams
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Deleted member 743561
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Bold claim!
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Deleted member 77403
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In slams.
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Deleted member 77403
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abmk
Bionic Poster
Nadal had 102 winners+forced errors to 44 UEs in RG 2013 SF.
Federer had 121 winners+forced errors to 46 UEs in RG 2011 SF.
icedevil0289
G.O.A.T.
ahh okay.
icedevil0289
G.O.A.T.
strictly speaking slams if that makes a difference
-NN-
G.O.A.T.
How does it compare to typical ratios found in the match-ups specifically on clay between Fred-Joe and Ralph-Joe? Could be insightful.
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Deleted member 716271
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yep.
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Deleted member 743561
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Agreed. And in truth, I'd be hard-pressed to dredge up all of the Fed matches on clay in my memory banks... 'cause I do my durn'dest to tune out the dirt.
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Deleted member 716271
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If you're asking abmk you should know fine well what the answer will be.
The definition of insanity was me expecting anything different
abmk
Bionic Poster
Guess Hitman, a Djokovic fan was also insane to state the same.
Djokovic2011
Bionic Poster
Not having him on ignore in the first place is what I'd call the definition of insanity. Not to mention a few other delightful characters inhabiting this forum.
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Deleted member 716271
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I was just joking a bit dont take me too seriously
Hitman likes Federer as well though much more than Nadal, but I won't question his bias. He has a right to his opinion
abmk
Bionic Poster
RG 2012 final : 72 winners+FE from nadal to 29 UEs
RG 2008 SF : 80 winners+FEs from nadal to 16 UEs
RG 14 F : 81 winners+FEs from nadal to 38 UEs
Guess why that 2008 version of nadal was so feared
-NN-
G.O.A.T.
Let's be fair though these are difficult questions to answer. USO SF and F matches are extremely different, and the context of Federer's win over Djokovic in the RG 2011 SF also paint it as a special win, given the streak and the beatings Djokovic had put on Nadal in the clay Masters. I take the USO 2011 SF and the RG 2013 SF for now.
-NN-
G.O.A.T.
RG 2012 final : 72 winners+FE from nadal to 29 UEs
RG 2008 SF : 80 winners+Fe from nadal to 16 UEs
Guess why that 2008 nadal was so feared
Do you have a thread or other post with the complete data set for this specific metric between the three regarding all clay encounters? If not I think it would be worth its own thread and further discussion.
+ the other surfaces, but separated.
-NN-
G.O.A.T.
Yes, there is a problem regarding the subjectivity of the stats keeping though I'm going to have to assume that over a large enough sample it will kind of cancel out. That's to say that we assume rallies to be brutal between Djokovic and Nadal so comparing the stats specifically for that match-up and observing the trend should be quite reliable, and once we know that we can match it up against the different trend that may be observed in the Djokovic-Federer or Federer-Nadal match-ups.
abmk
Bionic Poster
there is a thread for a metric called agressive margin (for many matches):
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...vel-of-play-federer-nadal-djokovic-co.450014/
-NN-
G.O.A.T.
Ye it's a good thread. Perhaps we should hone in on some Trifecta stats. There are links in that thread to other very useful statistical threads also.
I think stats get lost on this board and that there should be a subforum dedicated to statistics/theories. There's enough material to warrant that.
abmk
Bionic Poster
I was just joking a bit dont take me too seriously
Hitman likes Federer as well though much more than Nadal, but I won't question his bias. He has a right to his opinion
guess what, its not funny. You won't accept subjective comments from a Djokovic fan himself. You won't accept objective stats. What is left then ?
Also Djokovic2011 has proven himself to an utter noob regarding tennis before 2011. Obviously he had trouble handling my comments (which included a lot of stats) even with Novak dominant. Obviously, he couldn't come near handling them when Novak went down this year and Federer came up. So now the coward is hiding from me (which would be fine if he didn't keep making snide comments). So its not funny on 2 counts now with you responding to him on that.
abmk
Bionic Poster
see the stats for other Nadal-Djokovic encounters at RG - 08,12,14 from Nadal's side.
Obviously it goes : 08, 12, 13, 14 for Nadal.
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Deleted member 716271
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the original comparison was Fedovic match to a Djokodal so it would make a difference. (USO F 11 vs 15 FINAL)
In the 1 it evolved to (USO SF 11 vs 15 final) although even among same opponents the type of match can make a difference. I think you would find this pattern a lot. In USO 11, tons of periods with 1 player checked out. The impressive play as you mentioned was ton of slapped shots. Much less tight pressure moments with both players checked in so worse W/UE stats but not as good as play from Djok. IMO
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Deleted member 77403
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I really don't think the first four sets of RG 2013 were trail blazing, they were good, but nothing out of this world. Djokovic pretty much tanked the third set 6-1, and that hurts the match when you look at it as a whole. What makes 2013 semi so special is that fifth set, the drama, and the heightened tension of Nadal coming back from a break down. The story telling is perfect. However, can anyone serious say that if Nadal had closed it out in the fourth before blinking, that the first four sets would have been in equal quality to the RG 2011 semi? The RG 2011 semi just had crazy play from first set to fourth set, the only thing it didn't have was that fifth set. I would take the quality of those four sets over the quality of that one epic fifth set from RG 2013, if I am looking at a match a whole. RG 2013 had the more dramatic finish and drama, I will give it that but from pure tennis perspective, I like RG 2011 more.
This kind of reminds me of W 07 v W 08. W 08 was the greater match, but W 07 had the better tennis imo.
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Deleted member 716271
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I could play the same game with Fed fans who rated it the other way around. I'm not interested in proving anyone right. BTW, I've never seen you ever concede a point even slightly whereas I have many times. I'm explaining my honest belief on my position here right now.
It's also not a knock if Djok's level wasn't as high vs. Roger, part of that is CREDIT to Roger for taking him off his game. I'm not viewing this is a war like you do.
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Deleted member 716271
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the 5th was very high quality though and was a part of the match, regardless of whether it could have easily ended in 4. You might be right if the 5th was just high drama, but it also high quality as well.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
I like the RG 2011 SF but the Djokovic backhand down the line was a no show. That's what taints it for me. He had to run around that shot so many times to blast the forehand inside in because he kept netting the backhand. I believe that's what really cost him the match that day, although Federer's level of play had a lot to do with it as well.
Noleberic123
G.O.A.T.
How on earth do you lose a match with those stats. You can see how well Fed played that day. Pure ridiculousness from Fed
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Deleted member 716271
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Yeah people forget Djok had a W/O before that match. He was a bit off his game imo. Fedmight still have won, he played great. but I dont think it was one of Novaks best on clay by any means lmao...
abmk
Bionic Poster
what you say ton of slapped shots was actually good aggressive play from Djokovic, along with very good serving (USO 11 SF) compared to 2015 ( which was just good serving and solid play)
Djokovic did what he could to neutralize fed's play in 15, but level itself wasn't high. Plus serving wasn't great after the fall, though he did serve well when in trouble.
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Deleted member 77403
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Yes, I said the fifth set was legendary. But only the fifth set really delivered. That fifth set imo was greater than the fifth set of W 08. However, that one set alone doesn't cover the weakness of the sets that came before it, especially that third set, where I was very disappointed with how Djokovic just threw it away.
Another example like this is comparing Fedal AO 09 with Fedal 17. The first four sets of AO 09 were vastly superior to AO 17, it was the fifth set of AO 17 that was legendary and made the match epic, so the very same reasons RG 2013 semi became more legendary than RG 2011 semi. The overall tennis was better in 09 if you look at it as a whole, while AO 17 had a couple of weak sets, but epic fifth set ending.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
He was slightly off. I remember Patrick McEnroe called it before the match and said Federer would win because Djokovic had been off to many days. To my dismay, he was right. The Djokovic forehand was on but the backhand was off. He needs both of his wings firing in a match of that caliber and it put him at a disadvantage right away.
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Deleted member 77403
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I am by no means saying Djokovic played the perfect match, we have seen his level higher than that. RG 2016 comes to mind. I am just referring to his performance overall in RG 2011 semi was better than RG 2013 semi, where he clearly tanked a set. I cannot have a match where he tanked a set, over a match where he did not.
Noleberic123
G.O.A.T.
I'm sorry but the RG SF match was pure ridiculousness.
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Deleted member 716271
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That was @-NN- s pithy phrase, a FED fan.
Fed matchedd up well against Novak in 11, the only player that came close to challenging him and he often took him off his game.
The W/UE stats clearly favor a certain style of play so can be misleading. The shorter less intense rallies, the more both players are struggling, the less 1 player takes a mental break for a bit to regain composure the more impressive the stats look.
A better way to use the stats would be to compare W/UE ratio between players to see who played better for the majoirty of the match and if that was the winner. It usually would be but not always, like total points won. It's not particularly useful for comparing level between matches, unless there is a drastic difference.
abmk
Bionic Poster
Actually, I do concede to points when people have a point and prove it correctly ( ask Krosero/TheFifthSet).
but none of you guys here are actually able to do it.
I do give bonus points to djoko for taking nadal to a 5th set in 13, but purely level wise , he was better in the 11 SF.
Its not the subjective part. The stats show that as well.
Nadal had 102 winners+forced errors to 44 UEs in RG 2013 SF.
Federer had 121 winners+forced errors to 46 UEs in RG 2011 SF.
Federer was a tad better in the 2011 SF than nadal was in the 2013 SF.
Federer did not reach the heights that nadal did in the 5th set of course, but he maintained a more steady level on an average (by a bit ) and was more clutch than nadal was.
if nadal was more clutch and served it out (djokovic did return well in that game), the 2013 SF would've been a footnote compared to 2011 SF.
Noleberic123
G.O.A.T.
RG SF 11 is also one of Djokovics performances on clay ever.
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Deleted member 716271
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yeah but im saying the 5th set was high quality, you said just epic. That's a difference. For example, in AO 17 the finals et level was alright but not superb, it was just drama of Fed overcoming his nemesis.
Wimbledon this year on the other hand was a very high level from Fed
RG 13 was superb level too in the final set. Just 1 set? Well the 3rd was a thrown away set. But 1st 2 sets certainly weren't bad, there were some intense, intense rallies and long exchanges. The point construction when Novak finally broke Rafa to serve for the 2nd was incredible. 4th set was great level from Novak from 5-6 down thru the breaker up till he went up a break in the 5th. Then Legendary from Rafa. 22 Winners in the 5th.
abmk
Bionic Poster
its not W/UE stats. Its W+FE/UE stats. W+FE/UE stats are a lot more reliable.They don't necessarily favour a certain style of play.
See nadal in RG 08 SF for instance , 80 winners+FEs to 16 UEs. now, those are some ridiculous stats.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
I understand what you mean but I was just pointing out that it is often overlooked how one of Djokovic's wings was misfiring that day. I do think Djokovic in 2013 brought out the monster in Nadal in that SF and I have never seen Nadal play at that level before. It was something. Federer was amazing in 2011 as well but I do think that despite Djokovic not being completely clean in 2013, he fought harder than he did in 2011. I don't think he was completely on in either match but he fought harder in 2013, if that makes sense.
abmk
Bionic Poster
yes.
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