Djokovic now vs. 2011

[Deleted member 688153]

I was thinking about Djokovic's game and how it has changed since 2011, and one thing which stands out to me is the improvement of his serve.

Now, whether or not Novak is better now, as a whole package, than he was in 2011 is up in the air as far as I'm concerned, as there are arguments for both sides.

But I actually think that the undeniable improvement in his serve from sufficient to actually very good, would and does help him against Federer (due to the latter's passive return).

As such I have a sneaking suspicion that prime Federer would have a tougher time beating Djokovic at the AO in 2013, 2014, 2015 than he would beating him in 2011, basically because he would be able to make more inroads into Djoker's service games in 2011 and have more BP opportunities.

So anyway, I was wondering what you guys think.
Also inb4 hate.

 

[tennisaddict]

People who made jokes about Becker are eating humble pie

 

[Deleted member 688153]

People who made jokes about Becker are eating humble pie

Indeed.

In other words, Novak deserves credit for improving his game even further, and not just settling for what he had.

 

[xan]

well people improve over time. they ain't gonna practice strokes to go backwards

 

[Russeljones]

I think it's undeniable that we needed a new thread about Djokovic. Thank you for saving us.

 

[Deleted member 688153]

I think it's undeniable that we needed a new thread about Djokovic. Thank you for saving us.

I can make one about world #244 Pedro Cachin if you'd prefer.

:neutral:

 

[Deleted member 688153]

well people improve over time. they ain't gonna practice strokes to go backwards

Exactly.

I personally think Djokovic has improved in many ways since 2011, we wouldn't expect to see a drop-off in his physicality for a while yet.

I think he had more of a mental edge vs. the top dogs in 2011 though, and that's what made the difference.

 

[DRII]

i don't think Nole's game has improved since 2011. he's just in another favorable pocket with Federer continuing to age and Nadal in another early post injury recovery.

and as an added benefit, Murray is also in a post injury recovery where he has not regained his 2012 form and none of the young guns has consistently stepped it up yet.

what has tangibly improved for Nole since 2011? nothing.

this thread is just another example of some TT posters extrapolating the relative recent into another revision of history/gross prediction for the future.



Nole does deserve credit for his great consistency...

 

[NatF]

His serve has improved, so have his volleys. Everything else is worse.

 

[AnotherTennisProdigy]

I'm a firm believer that 2011 Djokovic was a lot better than 2014/15 Djokovic. Not only did he have better results in 2011, the competition at the time was a lot better. Federer was more fit and in form, Nadal was in good shape (at least by his standards lol), and Murray, although not a slam winner yet, was in the mix. Despite that he managed to get an incredible year, comparably equal or greater than Fed's years in his prime.

What's his main competition now? Federer, who's had to change his gameplan just to keep up, and a bunch of young guys like Raonic/Nishikori/Dimitrov. Possibly Nadal depending on his health later.

 

[SpinToWin]

His serve has improved from a technical point of view, but his higher confidence levels in 2011 made him serve more confidently/effectively IMO.

Djokovic was serving quite well in 2011, particularly his first serve percentage for large parts of the season was very high.

 

[tennisaddict]

He has improved in everything except being clutch.

 

[Gonzo_style]

Serve is definitely better, what worries me is his backhand DTL...
That shot is not working since Wimbledon's final against Fed.

 

[Noelan]

Serve is definitely better, what worries me is his backhand DTL...
That shot is not working since Wimbledon's final against Fed.

Working just fine at IW

 

[spinovic]

I think his serve is significantly better. And, in general, much of his game has improved.

But, he was better in 2011 because he was unbreakable mentally. Since then, he's been erratic mentally, especially in the biggest moments.

Whether he has overcome that is always the question in my mind. Nadal's run of success against Djokovic in 2013 was all about mental toughness and had little to do with any physical thing on the court.

If he can regain that edge he had 2011, then he will be a better player. But, it doesn't matter what improvements you've made if you cannot keep the mental focus required to play your best.

Who is the real Djokovic? The guy who won 8 straight games against Nadal on clay? Or the guy who dropped the first two sets of that same match? You never know what you're going to get from him from one game to the next sometimes, but when he's locked in, you won't find a higher level of tennis anywhere.

 

[HailDjokovic]

He improved in literally every department.

Backhand slice(can outslice murray, doesn't slip or trip anymore)

Remarkable Serve changes(well placed high percentage first serve and ridiculous kick on the 2nd serve)

Better Volleyer(Wins at least 75% of his net points now and approaches a very decent amount to end points quicker. Not a natural volleyer like Federer but he is better than most of the tour now on volleying)
All the weaknesses the posters bagged on him previously are now gone. Djokovic has a very complete game now.

The only thing is, his groundstrokes OBVIOUSLY don't have the confidence they had in 2011. 2011 was a do or die year for him. His groundstrokes these days are more controlled and top spinned to reduce errors. Its not to say they are worse, but they don't have that pop on them anymore especially if you compare 2011 to any other time.

I can't say a particular stroke has done worse or degraded, because he has made significant improvements to every part of his game. Even federer has noted this. The only thing missing is a 2011 mentality

 

[THE FIGHTER]

Exactly.

I personally think Djokovic has improved in many ways since 2011, we wouldn't expect to see a drop-off in his physicality for a while yet.

I think he had more of a mental edge vs. the top dogs in 2011 though, and that's what made the difference.

lets also not forget that djokovic's serve went down hill around the time he switched to head (around the same time he made notable changes to his swing). it was profound how much more inconsistent it became with his stiff looking take-back.

anyway, around 2011 he had amazing defense to offense, and defense in general, from the baseline. he doesnt rely on that so much now, perhaps a nod to his serve, but also his style of play from recent years is different from 2011.
in 2011 he out hit, out ran, out played opponents from the baseline. now he depends more on his ability to control points and stay ahead than play defense.

however, i think the style in 2011 has the bigger payoff in today's game. i have a feeling we wanted to become, or return to a, more agressive style of play to preserve himself for the future. and results show: 3 slams in a single year vs 3 single slam seasons.

djokovic wasn't a natural grinder(relatively) to begin with, despite him arguably having the best results with that style of play.

 

[Fedole]

Right now, the only thing that's worse is his movement. Obviously still moves really well, but in 2011 he could get anything. In the previous 3 years a lot of things were worse though imo. Agree that his serve has improved. Hopefully he can keep the form he showed at IW; definitely the best I've seen him since 2011.

 

[Noelan]

BH DTL is high risky shot, he slightly improved almost every other aspect of his game from 2011, doesn't need much to go for DTL with his BH like in 2011, now he has more options to use on court.
Imo the only thing that is missing now is youthful audacity while playing big matches,some would call it poorer mentality than 2011.

 

[powerangle]

Physically...maybe?
Present serve > 2011 serve
Present net game > 2011 net game
Rest of game (present) = Rest of game (2011)

Mentally, 2011 >> present

Djokovic won a lot of matches in 2011 after being on the brink of losing (or was in close tightly fought contests). Miami final versus Nadal, Madrid match versus Bellucci, Rome semi versus Murray, etc...

The difference is that now Novak tends to be on the losing end of tight matches in the latter rounds of slams (his pet slam AO, and Wim 2014 being the exceptions...). You wouldn't catch 2011 Nole serving 3 DFs in a tiebreaker, for example.

 

[Pocalypse]

He was more offensive in 2011, just look at his US Open final match or some of the clay finals against Nadal, especially the Rome final. Most of his shots would contain power with great accuracy, usually hitting the lines too. Oh and his mental strength was way more clutch in 2011, now not so much.

Plus his BH DTL was you know...actually existent.

Apart fromt that, his serve, volleys and slices have improved past 2011.

 

[powerangle]

He was more offensive in 2011, just look at his US Open final match or some of the clay finals against Nadal, especially the Rome final. Most of his shots would contain power with great accuracy, usually hitting the lines too. Oh and his mental strength was way more clutch in 2011, now not so much.

Plus his BH DTL was you know...actually existent.

Apart fromt that, his serve, volleys and slices have improved past 2011.

Pretty much this. Though I think he was more offensive in 2011 mainly due to his confidence and stronger mentality. He still has a very potent offensive game but these days his (relatively) more frail mindset doesn't allow him to hit out and win the biggest points when the chips are down.

 

[Deleted member 688153]

BH DTL is high risky shot, he slightly improved almost every other aspect of his game from 2011, doesn't need much to go for DTL with his BH like in 2011, now he has more options to use on court.
Imo the only thing that is missing now is youthful audacity while playing big matches,some would call it poorer mentality than 2011.

I've seen Novak live a few times, and the BH DTL is my favourite shot of his.
The more he uses it, the better as far as I'm concerned.
I think he is more well-rounded now, he was more "raw" in 2011, for lack of a better word.

Physically...maybe?
Present serve > 2011 serve
Present net game > 2011 net game
Rest of game (present) = Rest of game (2011)

Mentally, 2011 >> present

Djokovic won a lot of matches in 2011 after being on the brink of losing (or was in close tightly fought contests). Miami final versus Nadal, Madrid match versus Bellucci, Rome semi versus Murray, etc...

The difference is that now Novak tends to be on the losing end of tight matches in the latter rounds of slams (his pet slam AO, and Wim 2014 being the exceptions...). You wouldn't catch 2011 Nole serving 3 DFs in a tiebreaker, for example.

He was more offensive in 2011, just look at his US Open final match or some of the clay finals against Nadal, especially the Rome final. Most of his shots would contain power with great accuracy, usually hitting the lines too. Oh and his mental strength was way more clutch in 2011, now not so much.

Plus his BH DTL was you know...actually existent.

Apart fromt that, his serve, volleys and slices have improved past 2011.

Agree with these two posts.
His offensiveness and mental strength have both decreased, but in most other areas, he is either equal or better.

 

[Pocalypse]

I still remember that USO 2011 rally where Novak was hitting the ball from side to side with Nadal's incredible defense just bringing the ball back in, the crowd was nuts during the actual point as the ball was hitting the lines constantly.

Nowadays he can't do that, saw a few glimpses of it in 2014 Rome final but now it's like...more central and not even close to hitting much of the lines.

 

[cc0509]

His serve has improved, so have his volleys. Everything else is worse.

+1. He is not better than he was in 2011!

His major competition has been sub-par with Federer older and Nadal out of the game for so much in the past year and a half.

 

[Djokovic2011]

+1. He is not better than he was in 2011!

His major competition has been sub-par with Federer older and Nadal out of the game for so much in the past year and a half.

Why even bring up the competition cc0? What does that have to do with Novak's game? :?

 

[cc0509]

Why even bring up the competition cc0? What does that have to do with Novak's game? :?

It is relevant. The OP asked whether Djokovic was better in 2011 or now and for me there is no question he was better in 2011 because back then he was dealing with a completely in form Nadal and a younger Federer and still managed to beat them most of the time in that year. Now he is dealing with a much older Federer and a Nadal who has been out of the game most of the time in the past year and a half. Where is his major competition coming from currently?

I think Djokovic has improved his serving and volleying since 2011 but he was at his very peak in 2011.

 

[Djokovic2011]

It is relevant. The OP asked whether Djokovic was better in 2011 or now and for me there is no question he was better in 2011 because back then he was dealing with a completely in form Nadal and a younger Federer and still managed to beat them most of the time in that year. Now he is dealing with a much older Federer and a Nadal who has been out of the game most of the time in the past year and a half. Where is his major competition coming from currently?

I think Djokovic has improved his serving and volleying since 2011 but he was at his very peak in 2011.

Ok, but it just seemed to me like you were trying to minimalise his recent achievements which irritates me and which I think is deeply unfair.

 

[THE FIGHTER]

Pretty much this. Though I think he was more offensive in 2011 mainly due to his confidence and stronger mentality. He still has a very potent offensive game but these days his (relatively) more frail mindset doesn't allow him to hit out and win the biggest points when the chips are down.

he hit better shots in 2011 and ran everything down in 2011. thats why he was able to dominate most of that year. nowadays, i think he constructs points better and is all around a smarter player, but that doesn't have the same effect of dominance, and the results mimic that notion.

 

[THE FIGHTER]

this reminds me, i think federer had more success with anacone than he will with edberg. while i think edberg rounds out federer very well, and arguably has made federer the most complete he's ever been in terms of strokes and moving forward (not pure foot speed), i think anacone's go for broke, hard hitting at the first ball in the middle of the court would come to show that it's indeed the most fruitful style of play for federer in today's tennis climate—in terms of winning majors.

now, federer has indeed become more consistent at going deep since signing on edberg, and, honestly, he has gotten very close (W14) to winning a major, but W14 revealed the problem, i think. Federer ran more than djokovic. same thing happened at indian wells last week. It's odd, since he plays the net-attacking baseliner style, but he play's too patiently as if he'd rather wait for a ball to approach and attack on than a riskier ball he can try to put away from the baseline. he waits too long for the oppurtunity. i think he can benefit from pulling the trigger a bit more often, perhaps not as often as when he was with anacone, but closer to that.

look at the two other guys who won majors recently, they weren't net attackers or players who are meticulous at running baseline patterns, they were more or less aggressive baseliners who forced errors or went for winners, with ability to play defense as a last resort.

To an extent, one can relate this to Djokovic of 2011 who went for his shots vs djokovic of the last couple of years who meticulously tries to gain control and build points.

 

[spinovic]

Federer is more aggressive with Edberg. Annacone may end up with more 'success' because he got a younger Federer, but Edberg has definitely helped Federer transition to a more aggressive, attacking game that maximizes his chances to win a major at this point in his career.

I think it's fair to say that it could make him more vulnerable to upset, but I also think it is his only chance to beat the competition he will face at the end of a major.

I'm not debating who is the better 'coach', but just the changes Federer has made with Edberg. Federer's a smart player, so it's very likely he'd have made this transition anyway. But, I don't think his previous style gave him his best chance in his mid-30s.

 

[SpinToWin]

this reminds me, i think federer had more success with anacone than he will with edberg. while i think edberg rounds out federer very well, and arguably has made federer the most complete he's ever been in terms of strokes and moving forward (not pure foot speed), i think anacone's go for broke, hard hitting at the first ball in the middle of the court would come to show that it's indeed the most fruitful style of play for federer in today's tennis climate—in terms of winning majors.

now, federer has indeed become more consistent at going deep since signing on edberg, and, honestly, he has gotten very close (W14) to winning a major, but W14 revealed the problem, i think. Federer ran more than djokovic. same thing happened at indian wells last week. It's odd, since he plays the net-attacking baseliner style, but he play's too patiently as if he'd rather wait for a ball to approach and attack on than a riskier ball he can try to put away from the baseline. he waits too long for the oppurtunity. i think he can benefit from pulling the trigger a bit more often, perhaps not as often as when he was with anacone, but closer to that.

look at the two other guys who won majors recently, they weren't net attackers or players who are meticulous at running baseline patterns, they were more or less aggressive baseliners who forced errors or went for winners, with ability to play defense as a last resort.

To an extent, one can relate this to Djokovic of 2011 who went for his shots vs djokovic of the last couple of years who meticulously tries to gain control and build points.

The problem is that Fed can't play such tennis with his forehand going AWOL for a large part of the matches he plays in a year. It wouldn't have helped in Wimbledon because his forehand wasn't there to begin with.

 

[Deleted member 716271]

Djokovic has improved in many ways, but 1 way he's lessened is in the depth and angles. He now plays very smart, safe tennis although he will still "go for it" a bit more than a Murray or even Nadal on average. But he isn't quite painting those lines in the same way.

Interestingly though, he has developed a better serve (1st especially) and his slice and volleys (even overhead lol!) are much improved.

He's actually more offensive overall..I think his game is slightly better now than it was then since I don't see a detectable loss in speed or athleticism that is one of the hallmarks of his baseline game along with all the improvements. The mental lapses as of recent might make that seem a hefty claim, so I think this year will be very telling.

Of course, even if Djokovic wins 3 majors this year (or 4!) people will denigrate the competition relative to 2011 and in general really. But remember in 2011, Djoko came a hair away from losing the USO 2011 semifinal and lost the RG 2011 semi to Fed.

I think he's less vulnerable to losing to Fed in a best of 5 this year than then and not just because of Fed's age. The safer baseline style combined with a more offensive, all around game and serve makes him close to indestructible when he's on. It's really all mental; he's clearly the best player on tour by some margin now and I was glad to hear he recognizes the opportunity ahead of him and seeks to maximize majors before his prime is over (realistically 8 more major opportunities thru AO 2017.) Of course, he could win a couple after that, but I would say his prime would be over once he turns 30.

The flat, penetrating angles Djoko created in 2011 were awe-inspiring and beautiful though. They were a sign his game was firing on all cylinders and "on." Watch Rome 2011 final highlights to see the epitome of what I mean. I'm just not so sure how much better that made Djoko as much as it looked great and was a sign of his confidence...I'd take his present game minus mental lapses over that.

We're yet to see if this is a historic year or not for Nole, and I'm sure this is an UO, but to me if they played a match it's possible Djokovic '15>Djokovic '11.

 

[THE FIGHTER]

Federer is more aggressive with Edberg. Annacone may end up with more 'success' because he got a younger Federer, but Edberg has definitely helped Federer transition to a more aggressive, attacking game that maximizes his chances to win a major at this point in his career.

I think it's fair to say that it could make him more vulnerable to upset, but I also think it is his only chance to beat the competition he will face at the end of a major.

I'm not debating who is the better 'coach', but just the changes Federer has made with Edberg. Federer's a smart player, so it's very likely he'd have made this transition anyway. But, I don't think his previous style gave him his best chance in his mid-30s.

i acknowledged that becoming a more net attacking player is the smarter move for the preserving himself for future and probably makes Federer even more well rounded, and produces some very impressive attacking moments, but i dont think those moments will amass to a major. he's won all his majors by being a great aggressive baseline-allcourter, not being a great baseliner-net attacker. i dont see it happening in today's game. in 2012, federer was younger, but he wasnt moving as well as he does now. he moves better, smarter now with edberg—forward and side to side. i think that's making him a little bit too patient with shot selection, unlike in 2012 when federer went for his shots less sparingly.

i think the payoff is bigger in today's climate to be an aggressive baseline centric all courter. i know that sounds obvious, but i think people forget that notion when they become enamored at seeing the top players rounding out their games.

i think you have a better chance of winning a major, even at wimbledon, with an aggressive baseline game vs a net-attacking game, all things equal. granted there are other prerequisites like movement and fitness i think federer chose the wrong concentration, especially against the very top.

 

[spinovic]

i acknowledged that becoming a more net attacking player is the smarter move for the preserving himself for future and probably makes Federer even more well rounded, and produces some very impressive attacking moments, but i dont think those moments will amass to a major. he's won all his majors by being a great aggressive baseline-allcourter, not being a great baseliner-net attacker. i dont see it happening in today's game. in 2012, federer was younger, but he wasnt moving as well as he does now. he moves better, smarter now with edberg—forward and side to side. i think that's making him a little bit too patient with shot selection, unlike in 2012 when federer went for his shots less sparingly.

i think the payoff is bigger in today's climate to be an aggressive baseline centric all courter. i know that sounds obvious, but i think people forget that notion when they become enamored at seeing the top players rounding out their games.

i think you have a better chance of winning a major, even at wimbledon, with an aggressive baseline game vs a net-attacking game, all things equal. granted there are other prerequisites like movement and fitness i think federer chose the wrong concentration, especially against the very top.

First, it's not like he's going kamikaze and rushing the net every time. His game is still centered around the aggressive baseline play. He has simply decided to come in a little more. Instead of standing on the baseline and having to hit multiple big forehands to crack the defense of the best players, he's moving in to force the issue when he seizes the initiative. The faster courts are where his real chance lies, and at age 33+, his current style gives him his best chance to do that. He is simply never going to beat these guys by attempting to outhit and out grind them from the baseline.

He may never win another major, but it won't be because he played the wrong way. It will be because he is simply not good enough, perhaps because of his age.

And, I just don't see a more patient Federer. If anything, he was too patient and willing to be drawn into grinding baseline battles in the past. Presently, he cannot avoid that on courts like Indian Wells, but he can for the most part on quicker surfaces.

Agree to disagree?

 

[Nathaniel_Near]

Better:

- Passes
- Forehand
- Serve
- Slice
- Volley
- Tactical options

Worse:

- Return
- Backhand other than slice
- Focus
- Courage (doesn't go out and get it as much, perhaps because he now feels a sense of superiority in his game)
- Fitness (hard to notice but the signs are there IMO)

 

[SpinToWin]

Tennis is at least 50% confidence and belief. Djokovic doesn't come close to 2011 levels now, which is why he cannot play ridiculous stuff like he did back then. His game has gotten more neutral and less consistent. Overall there is a decline, which is less obvious if you just look at the technical progression of his strokes.

 

[VexlanderPrime]

His serve and net game are better and continue to improve. I don't think he forgot how to hit brutal FH and BHs and we still see them occasionally but it feels like he's made a conscious decision to play a bit safer. That and/or he doesn't have the same irrational confidence that he played with during the god mode run of 2011. Prob a bit of both.

 

[vanioMan]

Better:

- Passes
- Forehand
- Serve
- Slice
- Volley
- Tactical options

Worse:

- Return
- Backhand other than slice
- Focus
- Courage (doesn't go out and get it as much, perhaps because he now feels a sense of superiority in his game)
- Fitness (hard to notice but the signs are there IMO)

I'm not sure about that. Nole's FH is actually an enigma for me. There are stretches when it looks incredibly good and then all of a sudden it falls apart and becomes unreliable.

He did a lot damage with it to Nadal in 2011. People often talk about the BH, ROS and fitness being the main factor for those 6 wins, but his FH also played a huge role in them. He created some sick angles crosscourt and used it DTL quite often (as opposed to today).

 

[Nathaniel_Near]

Maybe, but I don't see him losing forehand battle to anyone now. Maybe that's because Federer's is worse and Del Potro has been MIA rather than Nole's FH being slightly better overall. Maybe it's a wash and I should have had a list for things that are more or less as good as they were, such as his fitness and the forehand.

 

[THE FIGHTER]

First, it's not like he's going kamikaze and rushing the net every time. His game is still centered around the aggressive baseline play. He has simply decided to come in a little more. Instead of standing on the baseline and having to hit multiple big forehands to crack the defense of the best players, he's moving in to force the issue when he seizes the initiative. The faster courts are where his real chance lies, and at age 33+, his current style gives him his best chance to do that. He is simply never going to beat these guys by attempting to outhit and out grind them from the baseline.

He may never win another major, but it won't be because he played the wrong way. It will be because he is simply not good enough, perhaps because of his age.

And, I just don't see a more patient Federer. If anything, he was too patient and willing to be drawn into grinding baseline battles in the past. Presently, he cannot avoid that on courts like Indian Wells, but he can for the most part on quicker surfaces.

Agree to disagree?

I think you may be a bit more right. I still think that federer is playing a bit too smart, to the point that its a hinderance, especially when he waits on a ball to approach on, but i guess same thing can be said if he waits on a ball to unload on.
I guess what i want to say is federer shouldnt wait on balls as much, regardless of he wants to approach or go for a winner.