Djokovic - the Muhammad Ali of our time

[Razer]

The only true GOAT players won the Grand Slam. Everyone else is in the Best of the Rest category, and that includes Sampras, Federer, Nadal, Serena, Djokovic, Navratilova, Evert, et al. Djokovic had his one chance to win the Grand Slam, but it--along with becoming one of the rare GOAT players--was not to be.

Slam count and rank 1 stats determine who is the GOAT

Things like CYGS are good for that era but as eras end and new begin the level of play increases, so when new champs emerge with slams record and rank 1 stats then they become GOAT.

Federer was talked about being GOAT on the day when he double bageled Hewitt indicating to everyone that he will break the slams record, for the next 15-16 years he was the best player of all time in the mind of the fans.... officially he was even called the GOAT after he broke Sampras's record of 14 ....

And when Robin somehow sneaked into No.1, quite interesting against the Batman

Robin sat of Fed's throne when Fed got up and quickly Djokovic usurped it next year, Robin never got a chance to properly become Batman.

 

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

The Grand slam is not "of an era", but an all-time achievement, which requires a master level of tennis ability/understanding in order to win it, hence the reason innumerable players across generations--including Djokovic, Nadal and Federer--were utterly incapable of winning it.

 

[Razer]

The Grand slam is not "of an era", but an all-time achievement, which requires a master level of tennis ability/understanding in order to win it, hence the reason innumerable players across generations--including Djokovic, Nadal and Federer--were utterly incapable of winning it.

CYGS (4 slams an year) won against 5'7-5'9 guys in 1969 is not as great as 3 slam years won vs Fed, Nadal or Djokovic, no ?

There is something called Level of play

 

[DropWideShot]

The Grand slam is not "of an era", but an all-time achievement, which requires a master level of tennis ability/understanding in order to win it, hence the reason innumerable players across generations--including Djokovic, Nadal and Federer--were utterly incapable of winning it.

“Utterly incapable” is a stretch, Djokovic was literally 1 match away from winning it.

 

[NoleFam]

He's not on the level of Ali, who is not only a sports but a cultural icon. I do find it funny how much power Djokovic has though. What he did the other day was funny and all he did basically was just troll a crowd. No biggie in the grand scheme of things, but it sent the media into a frenzy and sent his haters over the edge again, both in the media and online. It's honestly hilarious. I do think when he retires, his popularity will soar kind of like Kobe's. Being the most successful and GOAT of tennis to many will also make his name synonymous with everything sport in general.

 

[jm1980]

You don’t know who Babe Ruth is ?

If you know American sports or the sport of baseball you should know Ruth. Considered by many to be the greatest sports icon in the first half of the 20th century in America and by many still to be the greatest icon in the history of baseball.

Baseball has less international appeal than basketball or boxing. Outside of Japan, and some Central American countries, no one cares about baseball

 

[jm1980]

The Grand slam is not "of an era", but an all-time achievement, which requires a master level of tennis ability/understanding in order to win it, hence the reason innumerable players across generations--including Djokovic, Nadal and Federer--were utterly incapable of winning it.

When Laver won it, 3/4 Slams were played on grass

 

[weakera]

Baseball has less international appeal than basketball or boxing. Outside of Japan, and some Central American countries, no one cares about baseball

Baseball is very popular in South Korea and Taiwan.

 

[Razer]

Baseball has less international appeal than basketball or boxing. Outside of Japan, and some Central American countries, no one cares about baseball

True

The only basketball players I know/have heard of are

Michael Jordan
Shaquille o neal
Magic Johnson
Lebron James
Kobe Bryant
Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Wilt Chamberlain

Thats it, funny isn't it ? They are all probably from different eras, that speaks of how much Basketball is limited to 1-2 names that you market, it is not even a sport in most countries, more like a niche sport.

 

[jm1980]

Baseball is very popular in South Korea and Taiwan.

True but my point still stands. It's comparatively less popular than basketball in lots of places.

I'm kind of curious, if the average Japanese or Korean baseball fan watches MLB or just their local leagues. Because the NBA itself has worldwide appeal, even over local leagues

 

[jm1980]

True

The only basketball players I known/have heard of are

Michael Jordan
Shaquille o neal
Magic Johnson
Lebron James
Kobe Bryant
Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Wilt Chamberlain

Thats it, funny isn't it ? They are all probably from different eras, that speaks of how much Basketball is limited to 1-2 names that you market, it is not even a sport in most countries, more like a niche sport.

Poor Steph Curry, always forgotten

 

[weakera]

True but my point still stands. It's comparatively less popular than basketball in lots of places.

I'm kind of curious, if the average Japanese or Korean baseball fan watches MLB or just their local leagues. Because the NBA itself has worldwide appeal, even over local leagues

They are all following MLB. They opened the season in Seoul this year and it did huge ratings in Japan and Korea. There are also huge Japanese media presences following the teams that have any prominent Japanese players.

 

[TTMR]

He’s on ads all the time, talk shows, just gave the commencement address at one of the most prestigious Universities in the world. All those kids were like 21 years old and they all knew who he was.

Not even close to being forgotten.

He's on par with an average public intellectual or mid level ex-politician who'd be the typical commencement speaker.

Nowhere near a Michael Jordan or Mohammed Ali.

 

[Razer]

Look at a guy like Roddick. He was an absolute jerk but he was rarely called out on it

Roddick was not a jerk as such in 2000s, but he has been humbled down a lot, he was never a jerk but today he is self loathing types.

 

[jm1980]

Roddick was not a jerk as such in 2000s, but he has been humbled down a lot, he was never a jerk but today he is self loathing types.

Can you imagine if Djokovic did some of the things Roddick did? Like try to start a fight in the locker room with a younger player, the whole "Schmovak Schmokovic" thing? Or the flu, anthrax, SARS jab?

And it's not like he only did it to Djokovic. He tried to intimidate a teenage Nishokori with antics like these as well

Yes, he's a lot more mellow these days but when he was active? Sheesh

 

[pirhaksar]

I think in terms of global reach and popularity I think the small group of Ali, Messi, MJ, Tiger Woods and Federer are on a different plateau. These guys are a brand onto themselves and are synonymous with their sport even in the most remotest areas of the world. They define their sport currently and sometimes even transcend it I.e, if you have to describe golf, you are highly likely to have a picture of TW to explain it or write about it.

I might not agree and have my own faves over some of these, but that’s just my preference.

The likes of Ruth, Brady, Schumacher, Bradman or Sachin or even Laver, Nicklaus, etc are more niche and not nearly as synonymous worldwide.. heck most of the other side of the world wouldn’t know Brady if they ran into him.

 

[messiahrobins]

Post 1

Dont lie.

Go on X. Its mainly in Nadal's favout although as i say to me it is irrelevant as polls are popularity contests anyway, but you brought polls up!

 

[messiahrobins]

Polls don't matter. Records do. Statistically Rafa is behind Federer. He never had his own era which he dominated. Federer did, and so did Djokovic.

What? Nadal literally has been ahead of Djokovic his entire career until he couldnt play anymore. Not once did Djokovic ever overtake him while both were active and they are the same era.

 

[Razer]

Can you imagine if Djokovic did some of the things Roddick did? Like try to start a fight in the locker room with a younger player, the whole "Schmovak Schmokovic" thing? Or the flu, anthrax, SARS jab?

And it's not like he only did it to Djokovic. He tried to intimidate a teenage Nishokori with antics like these as well

Yes, he's a lot more mellow these days but when he was active? Sheesh

Djoker would have got away with a lot of things if he was an american. He is seen as a villian because he is less charming than Federer and also was chasing Federer, this did not sit well with people. Also he did beat Federer from the word go like Nadal did and struggled for years, later when Fed started to decline Novak overpowered him, this too could have its own impact on the minds of people. Plus it could be a cultural thing too, he rubs people the wrong way, there is no way to explain why it is. Some things are what they are.

 

[TMF]

Worst thread of the year.

OP is an embarrassment

 

[Neptune]

What? Nadal literally has been ahead of Djokovic his entire career until he couldnt play anymore. Not once did Djokovic ever overtake him while both were active and they are the same era.

You are not the most delusional, but still very delusional. Sorry to tell you, bud.

 

[Olli Jokinen]

Superstars outside of tennis ?
Is that why Federer never got a lifetime deal from Nike, even though he was practically begging for one ?
And Nadal is playing 2nd fiddle to Stephen Curry in Subway ads ?

Tennis is simply NOT as popular as you think it is.
Both Federer and Nadal are TRYING to remain relevant, but eventually will fail at that. People tire, and are fickle.

Djokovic however has 2 things on his side.
1) He hasn't oversaturated the public with his image. Notice how Federer is taking photos on his instagram with Taylor Swift. Whereas Djokovic basically posts photos of him with other sporting legends.
2) He is the GOAT. No matter how much (Rolex) they try to redefine "Greatness", it's the numbers that matter, especially when you played in the same era.

I know most people don't care about tennis. That was my f..... point. We don't have to agree, but you're wrong about everything. Djokovic will never really be popular with anyone outside tennis or the Balkans. Ever.

 

[marc45]

lol

 

[jm1980]

What? Nadal literally has been ahead of Djokovic his entire career until he couldnt play anymore. Not once did Djokovic ever overtake him while both were active and they are the same era.

Nadal had a big headstart though. If you want to throw away the wins after Nadal couldn't play anymore, you also have to toss the wins from before Djokovic got to the top of the game

If we use Djokovic's first Slam and Nadal's last Slam as roughly their overlapping careers, so 2008 AO to 2022 RG, the count is still 20-19 in Djokovic's favor

 

[duaneeo]

Do you love Federer/Nadal do you ?

See here's the thing, with you "Karen's" and "Daren's".
You keep saying that Djokovic wants to be "loved". I as a Djokovic fan don't "love" Djokovic. I admire and certainly respect him, but not "love" him.
In the Balkans we tend to use the "love" word a bit more wisely (In Greece we have 4 different words for love).

Okay Mr Literal.

 

[RS]

Worst thread of the year.

OP is an embarrassment

Kobe or Lebron?

 

[-NN-]

I have often wondered if Novak is the time-desynced reincarnation of the great man.

 

[messiahrobins]

Nadal had a big headstart though. If you want to throw away the wins after Nadal couldn't play anymore, you also have to toss the wins from before Djokovic got to the top of the game

If we use Djokovic's first Slam and Nadal's last Slam as roughly their overlapping careers, so 2008 AO to 2022 RG, the count is still 20-19 in Djokovic's favor

Big difference between end of career due to injury and start of career. I am unclear why you would start in 2008. I can understand starting in say 2006 perhaps as Djokovic was not a factor in 2005 really.
Slams are not Djokovics best argument in his eternal rivalry with Nadal. M1000's are as he was winning those and beating Fedal regularly early on. I have no issue with people who have Djokovic as GOAT if they look at overall body of work rather than focussing on slams. The point i am making is that most fans only look at slams and this is why Nadal seems ahead of Djokovic in terms of fan reaction, and like it or not, in any sport it is the fans who decide who is GOAT. That is one constant that can never be changed.

 

[messiahrobins]

You are not the most delusional, but still very delusional. Sorry to tell you, bud.

When between 2005-2022 did Djokovic have more slams than Rafa? Genuinely if i have made an error and there was a period when he overtook Nadal i apologise if i overlooked when that happened.

 

[jm1980]

Big difference between end of career due to injury and start of career. I am unclear why you would start in 2008. I can understand starting in say 2006 perhaps as Djokovic was not a factor in 2005 really.
Slams are not Djokovics best argument in his eternal rivalry with Nadal. M1000's are as he was winning those and beating Fedal regularly early on. I have no issue with people who have Djokovic as GOAT if they look at overall body of work rather than focussing on slams. The point i am making is that most fans only look at slams and this is why Nadal seems ahead of Djokovic in terms of fan reaction, and like it or not, in any sport it is the fans who decide who is GOAT. That is one constant that can never be changed.

Djokovic was not yet a factor in 2006, either. His best result was a Slam QF and then several first week exits. He didn't even come close to winning a Masters title, either, with several first round exits.

IMO Djokovic starts being a factor after the 2007 Canadian Open. He beat Roddick, Nadal, and Federer to win that title. Then a month later, he reached his first Slam final (USO), where he lost to Federer in three close sets, and he finished the year ranked #3. That was when he was starting to be seen as a solid contender

Even if we use the 2007 Canada as the starting point, it doesn't really change much. Djokovic still outperformed Nadal from there until 2022 in almost every metric that's not clay exclusive.

 

[GrandSlam24]

Bolt and Phelps lack impact at a cultural level, agreed. Running and Swimming are the most primal/basic sports and still these guys cannot become that epic. In Bolt's defense I would say he is Jamaican, he isn't an American, had he been an American then he would have got more opportunity to grow, his english would be better, he is already the fastest man alive - we would have seen him in hollywood movies. His legend would have grown.

Arnold Schwarzenegger who is an austrian and speaks english in a funny accent is rated bodybuilding GOAT and action GOAT (along with Stallone) because of Hollywood, now imagine if Arnold never ventured into Hollywood? He would be lesser known than Ronnie Coleman and Jay Cutler, both of those guys are legends and no less than Arnie in bodybuilding but Hollywood makes a difference. Even Bruce Lee is hyped because of Bollywood..... Bolt could have been big if he was an American and probably a bit better looking too. He looks ugly, and ugly means ugly, it is not about skin color, it is about looks, we have action stars like Michael Jay White or Idris Alba or Will Smith making it big but Usain cannot because he is not good looking too. So these things matter. Phelps I think has even lesser excuses than Bolt..... Phelps is american and yet he is not that iconic....Phelps is worse than Usain.


In Djokovic's defense, I would say that his biggest DRAWBACK is his loser status in USA, that means his loser performance in US Open finals..... I donno how the mindset of an American works (you would know better) but I can imagine that the crowd has only seen this fellow lose finals to Federer, then to Nadal and latest even to Medvedev, WTF ... I am not even counting Murry/Stan, but look at the picture, he is losing so much and we live in a world where the most hyped athletes are in USA so in a land where the spotlight is on you, you are a flop... that holds against you.... Novak has somehow won 4 US Opens, good for him but audience has seen him as a loser in USA for a long time .... Good for him that he has 7 wimbledons, can you imagine his stature if he had lets say 3 wimbledons, 4 us opens, 3 french opens and 14 aus opens ??? People would not take him as seriously as he is now because then he would be average in USA and Eng and these are important Slams.....

So thats that....

Well, but he's won enough in the USA and 3 US Opens were problematic. He wasn't there in 2017 and 2022 and 2020 was rubbish anyway.

 

[messiahrobins]

Djokovic was not yet a factor in 2006, either. His best result was a Slam QF and then several first week exits, and no masters titles. He finished the season ranked #16. He was a closer to a Rune or Shelton type of player in 2006

IMO Djokovic starts being acknowledged as a factor after the 2007 Canadian Open. He beat Roddick, Nadal, and Federer to win that title. Then a month later, he reached his first Slam final (USO), where he lost to Federer in three close sets

Even if we use the 2007 Canada as the starting point, it doesn't really change much. Djokovic still outperformed Nadal from there until 2022 in almost every metric that's not clay exclusive.

You cant now cherry pick clay lol. It is absurd to try to down play Nadal for being greater on clay than any other player was on any other surface.
Nadal v Djokovic is actually a rivalry that is very different at the slams compared to the regular tour. Nadal was the dominant force at the slams but Djokovic outside the slams, which represent most of the year and which is why his weeks at no.1 is so much better.
Like i say, i am not saying Djokovic is not GOAT, my view is it depends how you view things as to what qualifies to be GOAT, and those within the game who are involved in it day to day will say Djokovic as they obviously would think it is absurd to only focus on 8 weeks per year. I am simply saying how the fans seem to see it.
I prefer to think fans are luke warm to Novak because they do not see him as GOAT as opposed to other more sinister reasons as that would be depressing frankly, maybe though i am being naive.

 

[jm1980]

You cant now cherry pick clay lol. It is absurd to try to down play Nadal for being greater on clay than any other player was on any other surface.
Nadal v Djokovic is actually a rivalry that is very different at the slams compared to the regular tour. Nadal was the dominant force at the slams but Djokovic outside the slams, which represent most of the year and which is why his weeks at no.1 is so much better.
Like i say, i am not saying Djokovic is not GOAT, my view is it depends how you view things as to what qualifies to be GOAT, and those within the game who are involved in it day to day will say Djokovic as they obviously would think it is absurd to only focus on 8 weeks per year. I am simply saying how the fans seem to see it.
I prefer to think fans are luke warm to Novak because they do not see him as GOAT as opposed to other more sinister reasons as that would be depressing frankly, maybe though i am being naive.

I didn't say we should not consider Nadal's clay achievements. I just said Djokovic is ahead of Nadal in basically every metric, other than clay exclusive ones (eg: more Slams on clay, more titles on clay, winning % on clay, etc. will all belong to Nadal for obvious reasons)

Their head to head is also dominated by matches on clay; specially the Slam H2H. They played 10 matches at the FO, and 8 matches at the other Slams combined. Djokovic always showed up on Nadal's turf, but Rafa couldn't extend the same courtesy. 10 matches at the FO, 2 at the AO

 

[messiahrobins]

I didn't say we should not consider Nadal's clay achievements. I just said Djokovic is ahead of Nadal in basically every metric, other than clay exclusive ones (eg: more Slams on clay, more titles on clay, winning % on clay, etc. will all belong to Nadal for obvious reasons)

Their head to head is also dominated by matches on clay; specially the Slam H2H. They played 10 matches at the FO, and 8 matches at the other Slams combined

But only 1 slam is on Nadal's best surface, Novak has two on his best surface. so is not Nadal at a disadvantage, as is Federer for that matter.
To be honest, this debate is one that needs broadening out but using the Big 3 as the central point. Surely someone within tennis has enough intelligence to realise that we need an equal distribution of events and slams across the 3 surfaces. Tennis would be a lot more interesting surely?
Musetti is actually a good case study. Here is a guy who evidently has top 10 level on clay and grass (todays grass i mean) but i doubt makes the top 10 for long as on hard court, the majority of the tour, to date he hasnt shown anything above top 25 level. On the flip side, Medvedev is a hall of famer on Hard courts, but on clay and grass anything but yet he is always top 5 because of his prowess on hard.
Its wishful thinking however on my part, its more likely that eventually the entire tour will be hard courts as they are the cheapest to maintain, and money and profits ultimately is what counts.

 

[GrandSlam24]

Novak leads on grass and hard court against Nadal at Slams. Close, but he leads.
That's good enough for me. And he beat him twice in Paris. That's as good as it gets.

 

[TMF]

Kobe or Lebron?

What's your point?

 

[TTMR]

Fed's advantage over Djokovic among the general public is only slightly related to personality. It's far more so that he emerged in the 2000s, in the class of the aforementioned Tiger, Phelps, Bolt, and team stars like LeBron and Brady.

Entertainment is vastly more fragmented since the 2010s, it's the same reason movie stars aren't as huge as they used to be.

Among tennis enthusiasts--not the general public--Djokovic is bigger because of the numbers. But again we're talking general public here. Djokovic is a borderline nobody, and it's clearly something that grates on him that he does not have the cultural cachet of even a Federer, let alone a Jordan or Ali.

 

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

“Utterly incapable” is a stretch, Djokovic was literally 1 match away from winning it.

He did not do it. Anything else is "woulda, coulda, shoulda" territory.

 

[DropWideShot]

He did not do it. Anything else is "woulda, coulda, shoulda" territory.

No one is saying woulda, coulda, shoulda. Just stating the fact that the GOAT was 1 match short of the CYGS, making him the most capable of getting it. While that was not the case, still glad he set the record triple career grand slam!

 

[bullfan]

What a trolling thread.... Novak is the the Novak.

His covid stance was so self serving.

Not remotely close to Muhamed Ali. Pathetic Troll

 

[Drob]

Nadal was a bully, just ask Sonego!

???? Pray tell, please.

 

[TheFifthSet]

The Grand slam is not "of an era", but an all-time achievement, which requires a master level of tennis ability/understanding in order to win it, hence the reason innumerable players across generations--including Djokovic, Nadal and Federer--were utterly incapable of winning it.

What's "utterly incapable" in this context, and how does it differ from "incapable" or "didn't"?

Djokovic was a match away, whereas Federer was only stopped by the clay GOAT two years in a row...a tougher ask, in his case, than anything Laver was up against in '69.

It's not as simple as finding a way. A lot of things have to go right.

 

[NAS]

You don’t know who Babe Ruth is ?

If you know American sports or the sport of baseball you should know Ruth. Considered by many to be the greatest sports icon in the first half of the 20th century in America and by many still to be the greatest icon in the history of baseball.

Ok babe ruth of baseball, but I never knew him before I read a report on bleacher website in 2011

 

[NAS]

True

The only basketball players I know/have heard of are

Michael Jordan
Shaquille o neal
Magic Johnson
Lebron James
Kobe Bryant
Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Wilt Chamberlain

Thats it, funny isn't it ? They are all probably from different eras, that speaks of how much Basketball is limited to 1-2 names that you market, it is not even a sport in most countries, more like a niche sport.

I heard Karrem Abul jabbara name from the big bang theory

 

[Federev]

Ok babe ruth of baseball, but I never knew him before I read a report on bleacher website in 2011

If you google “ greatest baseball player” his name is first. (At least for me).

 

[RS]

What's your point?

Nah I was asking