Do you think Guillermo Vilas will win in the trial and be recognized as number one?

Lo que citaste no es nada que yo escribi. Nunca. Estoy seguro que usted simplemente hizo un error y que no fue intencional. Sin embargo, necesito corregir para que no haya malentendidos. En seguida, los cuatro posts que he escrito con respecto a este tema:


1.

KG1965:

La fecha clave es el 15 de diciembre de 1975 - el fin de la temporada.


Diciembre 15, 1975 (ERRORES CORREGIDOS):
Jimmy Connors – 771 – 18 – 42,8332
Guillermo Vilas – 897 – 21 – 42,714


Pero cual es la medida relevante?: el 897 o el 42,714? Y que miden? Que significan? Connors esta arriba de Vilas con 42,833, pero abajo de el con 771.

Y solo tratando ser claro: El reclamo de Vilas es para ser declarado como el numero uno (segun la clasificacion ATP) para el fin de la temporado -- year-end No. 1, correcto? Esto de ciertas semanas perdidas no tiene ninguna importancia - el chiste es quien termino la temporada en primer lugar segun el sistema ATP. Por ende, no entiendo el problema. Si la primera medida es determinante, entonces Vilas termino en primer lugar con 897. Si sea la segunda, pues, Connors apenas "gano" con mas puntos. En que me equivoco? Gracias.



Como se puede ver, no mencioné el 1977.

Usted respondio, aclarando en parte mis dudas. Por mi parte, le contesté asi:



2.

Gracias. Entonces lo que el ATP no acepta es el estudio sobre correciones de supuestos errores. No obstante, cual fue el fundado del rechazo? O fue porque el ATP dice que el estudio no es acertada, o si acepta las pruebas y conclusiones de Puppo/Culpian, mas de todos modos niegan cambiar el record oficial?

Entonces si hubieran utilizado un sistema como lo actual, el Numero Uno segun la clasificacion ATP seria Arthur Ashe?


Como uno puede ver, no mencione al 1977, y si hay dos preguntas, ambos con un signo de interogación

Cuando usted no respondió, fije el siguiente:


3.

Aún no ha respondido a mis preguntas. En vez de tener la cortesia de contestarme, usted escribio un mensaje reganando a todos por ser mensos. Es obvio que mis preguntas tienen que ver con 1975. Si usted no tuviera el conocimiento para poder contestar, por lo menos podría avisar así.

La grabación de la entrevista con Puppo señala que los funcionarios del ATP cuestionaron a su metodologia, indicando que el ATP no acepta que sean acertados sus datos y conclusiones. Además, si ahora Vilas no está luchando para ser declarado #1 para el año 1975, sino se queja sobre algunas pocas semanas, pues, esta es nada mås que vanidad y correr tras el viento.


Otra vez, no contiene ninguna referencia sobre el 1977.


Finalmente, escribí un post en inglés, dando breve explicacion a todos que no hablan el castellano:


4.

For the non-Spanish speakers, I am reminding the gentleman that he has not answered my questions, which indubitably appertained to 1975. Instead he wrote back that we are all a bunch of dummies. I think everybody gets that it is 1975.

But easy to be initially confused, because how could it even occur to anybody that Vilas should be world No. 1 for 1975? Now it appears that he is reduced to arguing about a few weeks during 1975, but not about the 1975 year-end ranking, notwithstanding that the numbers provided to us indicate that Vilas has an argument for year-end No. 1 according to the system used at the time.

If Vilas and his helpers are no longer trying to change the year-end rankings, the whole thing is ridiculous now IMO. But not surprising, coming from one of the most vainglorious of athletic stars - which is quite a feat considering the general nature of athletic stars. Like his stupid sandbox feud with Jose Luis Clerc, which cost Argentina the Davis Cup, and the museum to himself that he had "supporters" build, this fuss over a few weeks with the top ranking shows that this otherwise okay guy cannot keep his pride in check IMHO.


En suma, si bien no tengo el menor duda sobre su buena fe, le suplico tener más cuidado en adelante. Gracias.

Ok, es cierto. Nunca nombraste 1977. y yo nunca te había mencionado en el post que me contestaste, sinó que estaba contestandole a Dman, quien si nombro el año 1977. La confusión empieza cuando ume contestas un post que nunca fue dirigido hacia ti.
 
Drob, este es el texto que yo respondí:


[QUOTE="DMan, Jun 28, 2017 Report
There is NEVER going to be a trial. There is no need for a 'trial.' Be real, no crime was committed folks!

Why won't this be addressed by the ATP? First, to dispel the comparisons, it is true that a few years ago the WTA belatedly recognized that Evonne Goolagong should have been credited with reaching #1 on the WTA computer rankings in spring of 1976. This was due to the fact that 1) the WTA was lazy and careless with their historical record keeping, and 2) their rankings came out monthly sometimes, bi weekly other times. They calculated that for one short period of time, Goolagong was #1 on the computer rankings. (Even if anyone with an abacus could have figured out it was pretty much mathematically impossible for that to happen, unless they gave more points for winning 1976 Slims events - like double Wimbledon or US Open - since Goolagong was so far behind Evert at the start of 1976, and Chris actually improved in 1976 vs 1975. But I digress.) Evonne was a nice lady and never complained, so her belated #1 crowning was akin to an honorary Oscar, IMHO.

So shouldn't the ATP do the same? Well, NO! The ATP ranking system was bad, not as nonsensical and secretive as the WTA's, in 1977. Vilas played and won more than anyone did in 1977. But they went by an average system back then. And the fact they don't (sadly) go by an average system now means the ATP will never address - or what Vilas' fans want - correct the year end 1977 rankings. Why? To acknowledge an average ranking system is to acknowledge that the current ranking system, which uses total points earned (along with mulligans, i.e., bad results that get tossed out and don't count) to determine ranking placement exposes the WEAKNESS in the ranking system. The ATP won't ever admit that."[/QUOTE]

esta fue mi respuesta:
[URL='https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?members/mtincoronel76.749144/' said:
mtincoronel76[/URL], Sep 24, 2017 "Men, seems like you are very poorly informed:

1- Here there is not "Vilas' fans" wanted anything to 1977, cause this is not about 77. It's about 75 and 76. Between 1975 and 1976 Vilas HAD the average to be N°1 at least for 7 weeks and was not published by ATP at the time. That's the matter in question.

2- After ATP reject the study, effectively, there was a lawsuit, and right now are new negociations in a conciliacion mode. Not necessarily there must be a crime for taking any matter to court."

Usted agregua mi texto arriba citado para contestar de esta manera:

Drob[/URL said:
Drob[/URL said:
"Aún no ha respondido a mis preguntas. En vez de tener la cortesia de contestarme, usted escribio un mensaje reganando a todos por ser mensos. Es obvio que mis preguntas tienen que ver con 1975. Si usted no tuviera el conocimiento para poder contestar, por lo menos podría avisar así.

La grabación de la entrevista con Puppo señala que los funcionarios del ATP cuestionaron a su metodologia, indicando que el ATP no acepta que sean acertados sus datos y conclusiones. Además, si ahora Vilas no está luchando para ser declarado #1 para el año 1975, sino se queja sobre algunas pocas semanas, pues, esta es nada mås que vanidad y correr tras el viento"

Llamativo porque 1- yo estaba hablandole a otra persona 2- ya habia contestado tu pregunta, incluso me habias agradecido:


mtincoronel76[/URL said:
mtincoronel76[/URL said:
Edit Report


1- Se mide el porcentaje. Connors tiene menos puntos que Vilas pero mas porcentaje. Si fuera por puntos, el N°1 de 1975 es Arthur Ashe (907), que quedo N°4 en el porcentaje, y Vilas N°2. De la misma manera Vilas hubiera sido N°1 en 1977 (1610 puntos), Gottfried N°2 (1215), Borg N°3 (906) y Connors N°4 (897). Cosas inentendibles de ese ranking, creo que la ATP utilizaba el porcentaje para que jugadores como Laver o Rosewall, que no jugaban tantos torneos, continuasen en el top ten, algo que servía al negocio del tenis. Creo ...

2- el reclamo es por las semanas no publicadas en las que Vilas debió ser N°1, que eran 7 sin todos los errores corregidos. Pero con las últimas correcciones pasan a ser 18. Reclamo valedero porque si ATP les cuenta las semanas como N°1 a cada jugador, es ilógico sumar todas las semanas de un bimestre o trimestre en el cual no se publico el ranking, al que esté en el tope en la semana que se publica.

Según el estudio paralelo de Puppo/Culpian, con todos los errores de la ATP corregidos Vilas perdía 64 puntos obtenidos la temporada pasada y Connors 90 en la semana del 24-11-1975, con lo que el argentino pasa al primer lugar. Esa fue la última semana puntable para la ATP, por lo que se debió llegar a la última semana del año con Vilas N°1 de la siguiente manera:

Diciembre 29, 1975 (ERRORES CORREGIDOS):
Guillermo Vilas - 895 - 21 - 42,619
Jimmy Connors - 736 - 18 - 40,889

De todas maneras tengo entendido que la ATP no acepta el estudio con todos los errores corregidos por lo tanto lo que se dicutiría ahora serían las 7 semanas no publicadas de Vilas como N°1, las cuales le corresponden con o sin errores.

Ante la duda, solo tienes que buscar arriba los textos que agregué aquí.
En sintesis, supongo que estabas contestándole a otra persona, o pensaste erróneamente que el post iba dirigido a tu persona. Mi error fue no verificar esto antes de volver a responderte. Tu error, sin embargo, fue anterior, y ocasionó toda la confusión.

Tampoco tengo duda de tu buena fé, además ambos pensamos igual sobre el tema. Pero también te suplico tengas cuidado de fijarte a quien va dirigido una publicación antes de contestarla ...
Saludos!![/URL][/URL]
 

Drob

Hall of Fame



Drob, este es el texto que yo respondí:
[QUOTE="DMan, Jun 28, 2017 Report
There is NEVER going to be a trial. There is no need for a 'trial.' Be real, no crime was committed folks!

Why won't this be addressed by the ATP? First, to dispel the comparisons, it is true that a few years ago the WTA belatedly recognized that Evonne Goolagong should have been credited with reaching #1 on the WTA computer rankings in spring of 1976. This was due to the fact that 1) the WTA was lazy and careless with their historical record keeping, and 2) their rankings came out monthly sometimes, bi weekly other times. They calculated that for one short period of time, Goolagong was #1 on the computer rankings. (Even if anyone with an abacus could have figured out it was pretty much mathematically impossible for that to happen, unless they gave more points for winning 1976 Slims events - like double Wimbledon or US Open - since Goolagong was so far behind Evert at the start of 1976, and Chris actually improved in 1976 vs 1975. But I digress.) Evonne was a nice lady and never complained, so her belated #1 crowning was akin to an honorary Oscar, IMHO.

So shouldn't the ATP do the same? Well, NO! The ATP ranking system was bad, not as nonsensical and secretive as the WTA's, in 1977. Vilas played and won more than anyone did in 1977. But they went by an average system back then. And the fact they don't (sadly) go by an average system now means the ATP will never address - or what Vilas' fans want - correct the year end 1977 rankings. Why? To acknowledge an average ranking system is to acknowledge that the current ranking system, which uses total points earned (along with mulligans, i.e., bad results that get tossed out and don't count) to determine ranking placement exposes the WEAKNESS in the ranking system. The ATP won't ever admit that."

esta fue mi respuesta:


Usted agregua mi texto arriba citado para contestar de esta manera:



Llamativo porque 1- yo estaba hablandole a otra persona 2- ya habia contestado tu pregunta, incluso me habias agradecido:




Ante la duda, solo tienes que buscar arriba los textos que agregué aquí.
En sintesis, supongo que estabas contestándole a otra persona, o pensaste erróneamente que el post iba dirigido a tu persona. Mi error fue no verificar esto antes de volver a responderte. Tu error, sin embargo, fue anterior, y ocasionó toda la confusión.

Tampoco tengo duda de tu buena fé, además ambos pensamos igual sobre el tema. Pero también te suplico tengas cuidado de fijarte a quien va dirigido una publicación antes de contestarla ...
Saludos!!
[/QUOTE]



Muy Señor Mio:

Antes que nada, gracias. Hubo una confusion. Lo que yo vi en la pantalla parece como una respuesta de usted a mi Post.

Si usted refiere a:

Do you think Guillermo Vilas will win in the trial and be recognized as number one?
1- Se mide el porcentaje. Connors tiene menos puntos que Vilas pero mas porcentaje. Si fuera por puntos, el N°1 de 1975 es Arthur Ashe (907), que...
Post by: mtincoronel76, Sep 22, 2017 in forum: Former Pro Player Talk


puede ver que parece ser dirigido a un servidor y contesta a unas de las preguntas planteadas. En fin, no sé que decir, ni que pasó. Quisiera comunicar que no hay cuidado por mi parte y lamento la confusion.

Gracias de nuevo. Que ud. también reciba un cordial saludo.
 

Vegito

Hall of Fame
I was reading this thread and others again; some info that KG1965 wrote: other user saying the tournaments of Bermuda and Mawi are more important than they said; the differences between the rankings published with errors and withouts errors; even not correcting errors Vilas is number one in September 1975; ATP didn´t refute the investigation; but maybe there are details that they are not sure about even if theyy cannot refute it. Did someone did something on purpose?(in that case; it´s a scandal) Nothing of that? Why Connors played in Bermuda? Also; it´s true that Guillermo lost an unbelievable match in the US Open; if he had won the tournament; I think he would have been official number one; no way to modify all the numbers.
 

Tshooter

G.O.A.T.
I was reading this thread and others again; some info that KG1965 wrote: other user saying the tournaments of Bermuda and Mawi are more important than they said; the differences between the rankings published with errors and withouts errors; even not correcting errors Vilas is number one in September 1975; ATP didn´t refute the investigation; but maybe there are details that they are not sure about even if theyy cannot refute it. Did someone did something on purpose?(in that case; it´s a scandal) Nothing of that? Why Connors played in Bermuda? Also; it´s true that Guillermo lost an unbelievable match in the US Open; if he had won the tournament; I think he would have been official number one; no way to modify all the numbers.

All will be resolved to your satisfaction after “the trial” has concluded.
 
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No. The ranking system then is almost unexplainable and convoluted, to pull the numbers apart and put them back together again definitively showing Vilas as number 1 and changing the records to reflect the same, as a practical matter, will not happen.
 

Crazy Finn

Hall of Fame
I watched the Netflix documentary about Vilas and the #1 Ranking.

I had a pretty low opinion of the ATP and this didn't improve my view on them.
 

Vegito

Hall of Fame
Last thing I heard was that Vilas lawyer had to do a trip related to the trial, but details were not told. Would like to know the details of what things they are discussing. I recommend to se the documentary of Vilas and pause at soMe parts in which you can see the mails(or some of them) between journalist Eduardo Puppo and ATP.

Anyway, I had my incognites about why Vilas maded his schedule of 1977 like that and why he he did not choose other tournaments.
 
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Last thing I heard was that Vilas lawyer had to do a trip related to the trial, but details were not told. Would like to know the details of what things they are discussing. I recommend to se the documentary of Vilas and pause at soMe parts in which you can see the mails(or some of them) between journalist Eduardo Puppo and ATP.

Anyway, I had my incognites about why Vilas maded his schedule of 1977 like that and why he he did not choose other tournaments.

Yes, the documentary is great.
 

Tshooter

G.O.A.T.
Last thing I heard was that Vilas lawyer had to do a trip related to the trial, but details were not told. Would like to know the details of what things they are discussing. I recommend to se the documentary of Vilas and pause at soMe parts in which you can see the mails(or some of them) between journalist Eduardo Puppo and ATP.

Anyway, I had my incognites about why Vilas maded his schedule of 1977 like that and why he he did not choose other tournaments.

Still going on with this. Very weird.

There has never been a lawsuit filed in any jurisdiction by Vilas or anyone acting on his behalf against the ATP. Nor is it remotely likely that there ever will be.
 
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Still going on with this. Very weird.

There has never been a lawsuit filed in any jurisdiction by Vilas or anyone acting on his behalf against the ATP. Nor is it remotely likely that there ever will be.


Yes, very strange. Puppo says he's waiting for a decision, but from whom and when ... ?
 

Tshooter

G.O.A.T.
Yes, very strange. Puppo says he's waiting for a decision, but from whom and when ... ?

I don't know who Puppo is but the TW poster has been going on for years about something that is pretty clear to establish if it exists but it doesn't.
 
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I don't know who Puppo is but if it is another someone also pretending there is a lawsuit then equally bizarre. This TW poster has been going on for years about something that is pretty clear to establish if it existed but it doesn't. I think a lawyer is not the appropriate professional to help in this circumstance...

Puppo is the one who is fighting this fight for 15 years. Look the documentary Netflix.
 

Vegito

Hall of Fame
In that documentary they show a book with annotations of Vilas in 1977; seems like it was during the French Open; and they show part of the schedule; apparently Vilas planned to play in Hilversum and in Toronto; and not in Kitzbuhel; also I read once he had Boston and Barcelona in his schedule... I would like to see the complete planned schedule of 1977.
 
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Enceladus

Legend
The whole thing about recognizing Vilas as the World No. 1 will end up so that IMO in the future the ATP will recognize Vilas as a No. 1 of ATP rankings, but at that time Vilas will be dead and will not be able to enjoy the feeling of "I was World No. 1". :(
 
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