Does anybody use an abbreviated type of serve

[dgold44]

As i said before my timing and mechanics are very lousy with the classical wind up type of serve that I am totally dumping it and trying a simpler type of serve. ( this post is not about me again lol but to see if others like this kind of serve). You guys and gals were great at giving me details.

Has anybody made this transaction and was it pretty easy. I know Roddick is best known for it.
Still confused if Nadal uses this serve because some clips it looked like he has a abbrev. serve and others looked like a more wind up serve.

This is what I read about it , so far last nite

1) Both arms go up together
2) The racket and tossing arm never go below your waste. Nothing happens below the waist.
3) Lower ball toss
4) just get right into the trophy pose like an Overhead.

Finally does this affect if I should pause at the tropy position or is that just dependent on whether my toss is too high ???

I am shadowing the entire motion in the mirror and will try it on the courts on Sunday, I think.

About 18 months ago, I dumped my old backhand by changing grips and adding a loop and after 6 months it went from a 3.7 level to a solid 4.2 . So I hope, I get another gold medal for patience, again.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

my $0.02

I've been hitting with an abbreviated type of serve... ever since I saw roddick do it...
I never felt comfortable with the longer traditional windup.
The main issue was the my toss motion was terrible, so the high toss required for the longer wind up, was never accurate... I found the shorter toss much more manageable.
I still continue to tweak my serve, but definitely find the abbreviated motion much better for me to time, and coordinate.

I find how long the pause is dependent on how high the toss is... just make sure you're loading all the right things (eg. shoulder turn and tilt, knee bend, hip thrust, etc...), and not eliminating some loads (which I have the tendency to under pressure, because I tend to toss lower)

 

[heninfan99]

Yes. I like it.

 

[Nellie]

Personally, I would not use a lower toss. I like tossing high (same as a traditional motion) so I can think about pulling down the elbow of my right (serving) arm while I am waiting the half second for the ball to drop. I find this helps encourage a lot of aspects of a good form (shoulder rotation and a good archer's bow with knees pushed and shoulders tilted up) and encourages swinging up at the ball. If you shorten the toss, you tend to slap at the ball.

 

[Lukhas]

I do. It was because I felt more at ease with a shorter tossing motion as well as a faster rhythm. But I think that I'd be able to use a more "traditional" windup now if I wanted to because I think that stripping down the action as well as studying various models for the serve made me able to be more conscious of what I'm supposed to actually do and "ignore" more easily what isn't essential.

 

[esgee48]

I have always used an abbreviated service motion. I find it easier to go to a trophy pose if I just toss the ball about 3-4' above the tossing hand. Easier when the wind or sun are factors.

I prefer to have my back ( ala McEnroe) a little more facing the net so I do not have to coil/uncoil the shoulder. Still a slow toss so the hitting arm can get into an OH position quickly.

 

[Rubens]

It has helped me a lot. I don't even do the Roddick 'up and down' motion. I just bring the racquet straight back toward the trophy pose. It has helped me obtain a good coil, and a natural "elbow the enemy" that Salzenstein talked about in his video.

 

[RetroSpin]

If you pause at trophy, how you get to trophy is not going to affect the power of your serve. Look at Gasquet.

 

[GuyClinch]

I have been using one as well while I attempt to improve my serve. I will note that even in abbreviated there is some backswing - and that can vary depending on serve.

 

[julian]

As i said before my timing and mechanics are very lousy with the classical wind up type of serve that I am totally dumping it and trying a simpler type of serve. ( this post is not about me again lol but to see if others like this kind of serve). You guys and gals were great at giving me details.

Has anybody made this transaction and was it pretty easy. I know Roddick is best known for it.
Still confused if Nadal uses this serve because some clips it looked like he has a abbrev. serve and others looked like a more wind up serve.

This is what I read about it , so far last nite

1) Both arms go up together
2) The racket and tossing arm never go below your waste. Nothing happens below the waist.
3) Lower ball toss
4) just get right into the trophy pose like an Overhead.

Finally does this affect if I should pause at the tropy position or is that just dependent on whether my toss is too high ???

I am shadowing the entire motion in the mirror and will try it on the courts on Sunday, I think.

About 18 months ago, I dumped my old backhand by changing grips and adding a loop and after 6 months it went from a 3.7 level to a solid 4.2 . So I hope, I get another gold medal for patience, again.

You should speak to a knowledgable coach about increased shoulder loads in the case of an abbreviated serve
Increased loads are one of reasons the abbreviated serve is NOT taught frequently.
Trying to learn it online is another issue
Julian W.Mielniczuk
Www.julianmielniczuk.usptapro.com

 

[julian]

I have always used an abbreviated service motion. I find it easier to go to a trophy pose if I just toss the ball about 3-4' above the tossing hand. Easier when the wind or sun are factors.

I prefer to have my back ( ala McEnroe) a little more facing the net so I do not have to coil/uncoil the shoulder. Still a slow toss so the hitting arm can get into an OH position quickly.

If you would see an USPTA manual serving like McEnroe is explicitly discouraged
at least below the 4.0 level

 

[WildVolley]

You should speak to a knowledgable coach about increased shoulder loads in the case of an abbreviated serve
Increased loads are one of reasons the abbreviated serve is NOT taught frequently.
Trying to learn it online is another issue
Julian W.Mielniczuk
Www.julianmielniczuk.usptapro.com

Julian. Any good studies providing much evidence that shoulder loading is higher in an abbreviated serve? I'm skeptical of the concept.

I know that faster servers tend to show more shoulder loading. But I'm unclear as to why a long takeback would lead to less shoulder loading.

Here's an article that discusses why there might be a potential of more shoulder injuries. But it is just a hypothetical.

http://www.nysun.com/sports/peculiar-evolution-of-todays-tennis-serve/57251/

 

[julian]

Julian. Any good studies providing much evidence that shoulder loading is higher in an abbreviated serve? I'm skeptical of the concept.

I know that faster servers tend to show more shoulder loading. But I'm unclear as to why a long takeback would lead to less shoulder loading.

Here's an article that discusses why there might be a potential of more shoulder injuries. But it is just a hypothetical.

http://www.nysun.com/sports/peculiar-evolution-of-todays-tennis-serve/57251/

Vic Braden asked a student to sign a document staying that he is not going to be sued teaching serve
Please note that you are exceptional- for example you were able to use a device of tennisspeed

 

[julian]

Julian. Any good studies providing much evidence that shoulder loading is higher in an abbreviated serve? I'm skeptical of the concept.

I know that faster servers tend to show more shoulder loading. But I'm unclear as to why a long takeback would lead to less shoulder loading.

Here's an article that discusses why there might be a potential of more shoulder injuries. But it is just a hypothetical.

http://www.nysun.com/sports/peculiar-evolution-of-todays-tennis-serve/57251/

I am on the very conservative end of the spectrum
I teach only non-abbreviated serve but I play using the abbreviated one.
To amuse I lost one job interview because a play of doubles was a part of the interview.
I served abbreviated and I got disqualified in Northeast
It was the only strike against because it was assumed that I teach the way I played
It is not the case by the way
Regards,
Julian

 

[WildVolley]

Vic Braden asked a student to sign a document staying that he is not going to be sued teaching serve
Please note that you are exceptional- for example you were able to use a device of tennisspeed

I was entertained by Braden's articles when I was a kid just learning tennis. But I'm not sure that I'd cite him as an expert on much of anything.

I think Gordon's work on the increased loading is probably the most scientific stuff we have, though I will admit to not reading his paper or the sample size that was used.

I mention my skepticism because I've noted that injured players often adopt an abbreviated serve. Perhaps that is to protect other joints rather than the the shoulder.

I can see that the abbreviated serve may make more demands on the muscles involved in external rotation because the larger back muscles aren't used as much to swing the racket up and into an external rotation position. Interesting subject.

 

[julian]

I was entertained by Braden's articles when I was a kid just learning tennis. But I'm not sure that I'd cite him as an expert on much of anything.

I think Gordon's work on the increased loading is probably the most scientific stuff we have, though I will admit to not reading his paper or the sample size that was used.

I mention my skepticism because I've noted that injured players often adopt an abbreviated serve. Perhaps that is to protect other joints rather than the the shoulder.

I can see that the abbreviated serve may make more demands on the muscles involved in external rotation because the larger back muscles aren't used as much to swing the racket up and into an external rotation position. Interesting subject.

The article you quoted brings a very good point- I do not know how to teach a trunk rotation combined with an abbreviated serve
Another issue is that when I coached a college team one of players tend to have
a very low toss combined with an abbreviated motion
I was not able to improve his serve
Is it a failure by a coach?

 

[WildVolley]

I am on the very conservative end of the spectrum
I teach only non-abbreviated serve but I play using the abbreviated one.
To amuse I lost one job interview because a play of doubles was a part of the interview.
I served abbreviated and I got disqualified in Northeast
It was the only strike against because it was assumed that I teach the way I played
It is not the case by the way
Regards,
Julian

Interesting. I know that coaches don't always teach the way they play. For example, I play a 2hbh these days and am perfectly content to teach the 1hbh if the student wants it. Most of my students do not use an abbreviated serve.

Thinking back on it, my assumption is that rapid acceleration into external rotation that characterizes many abbreviated serves may require greater use of the rotator cuff to externally rotate the racket quickly and that may be the cause of greater shoulder loading. Now I'm interested to read Gordon's study on this topic.

 

[julian]

I was entertained by Braden's articles when I was a kid just learning tennis. But I'm not sure that I'd cite him as an expert on much of anything.

I think Gordon's work on the increased loading is probably the most scientific stuff we have, though I will admit to not reading his paper or the sample size that was used.

I mention my skepticism because I've noted that injured players often adopt an abbreviated serve. Perhaps that is to protect other joints rather than the the shoulder.

I can see that the abbreviated serve may make more demands on the muscles involved in external rotation because the larger back muscles aren't used as much to swing the racket up and into an external rotation position. Interesting subject.

Is the Gordon's paper on tennisplayer.net?

 

[julian]

Interesting. I know that coaches don't always teach the way they play. For example, I play a 2hbh these days and am perfectly content to teach the 1hbh if the student wants it. Most of my students do not use an abbreviated serve.

Thinking back on it, my assumption is that rapid acceleration into external rotation that characterizes many abbreviated serves may require greater use of the rotator cuff to externally rotate the racket quickly and that may be the cause of greater shoulder loading. Now I'm interested to read Gordon's study on this topic.

By the way- if I have a private lesson I teach serve only for 20 minutes
However it is done in a very efficient way- a student uses a cart of balls, I do not talk to much,etc.etc

 

[julian]

Interesting. I know that coaches don't always teach the way they play. For example, I play a 2hbh these days and am perfectly content to teach the 1hbh if the student wants it. Most of my students do not use an abbreviated serve.

Thinking back on it, my assumption is that rapid acceleration into external rotation that characterizes many abbreviated serves may require greater use of the rotator cuff to externally rotate the racket quickly and that may be the cause of greater shoulder loading. Now I'm interested to read Gordon's study on this topic.

As you probably know tennissp...!was trying to post at our forum

 

[WildVolley]

As you probably know tennissp...!was trying to post at our forum

I recall he posted at this forum long ago. His blog hasn't been very active in years and the tennis speedchain he was selling must not have done well, because it shut down years ago. The speedchain as a training tool seems to have much more of a following in golf.

I believe the speedchain was a legitimate training tool, but strangely enough, I found it most difficult to use to train for the serve. There was always a risk of pulling a trailing coil of chain into your head if you try to internal rotate hard when using it.

From my own experience with shoulder injuries, I'm a believer that tennis serving is inherently risky and that most players should do external rotation exercises to balance the increase in internal rotation strength that serious tennis training develops. I mostly use elastic tubing these days to do external rotation exercises, at least three times per week. I'll normally do sets after hitting to counter the internal rotation workout that my hitting seems to involve. I try to encourage my students to do off-court exercises to protect the shoulder and elbow, but I don't know how many of them actually do them.

 

[julian]

I recall he posted at this forum long ago. His blog hasn't been very active in years and the tennis speedchain he was selling must not have done well, because it shut down years ago. The speedchain as a training tool seems to have much more of a following in golf.

I believe the speedchain was a legitimate training tool, but strangely enough, I found it most difficult to use to train for the serve. There was always a risk of pulling a trailing coil of chain into your head if you try to internal rotate hard when using it.

From my own experience with shoulder injuries, I'm a believer that tennis serving is inherently risky and that most players should do external rotation exercises to balance the increase in internal rotation strength that serious tennis training develops. I mostly use elastic tubing these days to do external rotation exercises, at least three times per week. I'll normally do sets after hitting to counter the internal rotation workout that my hitting seems to involve. I try to encourage my students to do off-court exercises to protect the shoulder and elbow, but I don't know how many of them actually do them.

He posted two days ago

 

[RetroSpin]

Can anyone explain why an abbreviated motion would cause increased shoulder loading? I am not even sure what that means or why is it is a bad thing. Isn't that another way of saying increased external rotation? And isn't the degree of external rotation one of the main differences between elite and rec serves?

 

[esgee48]

If you would see an USPTA manual serving like McEnroe is explicitly discouraged
at least below the 4.0 level

My back is not pointed towards the net. I can't serve like that without risking a back injury. The back is turned maybe 20-25 degrees to the net, enough so that I do not have to coil the shoulder. I did say ala McEnroe, not like McEnroe.

 

[julian]

Can anyone explain why an abbreviated motion would cause increased shoulder loading? I am not even sure what that means or why is it is a bad thing. Isn't that another way of saying increased external rotation? And isn't the degree of external rotation one of the main differences between elite and rec serves?

Basically someone should give you a reference which provides a number
A number is number of pounds per a squared inch of a rotator cuff for an abbreviated serve. It will take me couple of days to find this number

 

[shindemac]

Basically someone should give you a reference which provides a number
A number is number of pounds per a squared inch of a rotator cuff for an abbreviated serve. It will take me couple of days to find this number

Shoulder is a ball joint, meaning it's one of the few joints that have almost a complete free range of motion. But this advantage comes with a huge disadvantage. It's easy to dislocate and pop out the shoulder. That's why impingement is so bad, unless you want to pop out your shoulder.

Can anyone explain why an abbreviated motion would cause increased shoulder loading? I am not even sure what that means or why is it is a bad thing. Isn't that another way of saying increased external rotation? And isn't the degree of external rotation one of the main differences between elite and rec serves?

Even with proper technique, the increased forces is worrisome. Low level servers can have their arm up high, and it's not proper technique, but tolerable. Some coaches use this as a progression. If high level servers tried to do the same with poor technique, they risk injury. Since they generate so much forces, proper technique becomes essential. Even if you have a healthy shoulder, it doesn't take much esp. with the repittive nature too.

I mean, think of it as those barbie and gi joe dolls you had as a kid (or still do). How easy it was to pop out those arms! You prolly knew what position to put the arm for best way to remove it, apply some force, and pop it went.

I don't use the Roddick motion. But if any technique allows you to generate more forces for power, it goes to say that the shoulder could also experience more forces. This is the ironic part of serving and a double-edged sword. It only takes one time for you to put your arm at a funny angle like that doll, and pop! A lifeguard/competive swimmer I was talking to dislocated her shoulder while doing freestyle. And swimming is usually regarded as "easy on the joints", but it depends.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Can anyone explain why an abbreviated motion would cause increased shoulder loading? I am not even sure what that means or why is it is a bad thing...

You should speak to a knowledgable coach about increased shoulder loads in the case of an abbreviated serve
Increased loads are one of reasons the abbreviated serve is NOT taught frequently...

Interesting topic. I don't know if there really is a consensus on this. Some sources have suggested that there is less stress with an abbreviated serve motion while others have suggested there is increased loading. I'm thinking that the particular implementation of an abbreviated motion could have a strong bearing on this.

For a moment, let's consider a full motion serve that includes hitches or aberrations. There are a lot of servers out there with a flawed full-motion serve. Such a serve may very well be more stressful to the shoulder/rotator than a mechanically correct (or superior) full-motion serve. If those hitches or aberrations can be eliminated by switching to a simpler serve or an abbreviated serve, the result could very well mean less shoulder stress. OTOH, some implementations of the abbreviated serve might very well still be stressful while other implementations might not be.

I would be more interested in hearing about studies that suggest increased shoulder loading. I have come across a bit of this but I'm not sure if the findings were conclusive. I have come across a statement made by Whitney Kraft, the Director of Tennis at the USTA National Tennis Center. He mentions a study that had hypothesized that an abbreviated technique places more stress on the anterior shoulder. However, he indicates that the study discounted this theory.

"There have been several studies addressing the two types of backswings, as well as stance types; foot-up (Roddick) vs. foot-back (Federer). The studies sought to ascertain two separate, but related dynamics; racquet head speed and shoulder stress. The results demonstrated differences in how the racquet speed was generated, but that ultimately the speed was determined by the biomechanical qualities within each respective technique, not by the technique in and of itself.

This was also true for shoulder stress. There was hypothesis that the abbreviated technique placed more stress to the anterior shoulder, but the study discounted the theory, and same for foot-back stance. The rotator cuff vulnerability during overhead “throwing” movements; is ability to stabilize and decelerate internal rotation of the upper arm.

Probably the most determinant factor in high quality/low stress service motions is the “shoulder-over-shoulder” movement, which is created by the lower body and torso kinetic loading phase…creating that “trophy pose” when releasing the toss. Without the cartwheel-like full shoulder-over-shoulder rotation; the upper arm is placed into a greater (more stressful) joint angle and subsequently increases the key compensatory (kinematics) stresses in the upper arm velocity and deceleration effort, and onward down the chain to elbow and wrist."

https://www.usta.com/Improve-Your-Game/Instruction/Feature/0717_Service_Toss_and_Motion/

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

I was entertained by Braden's articles when I was a kid just learning tennis. But I'm not sure that I'd cite him as an expert on much of anything.

I think Gordon's work on the increased loading is probably the most scientific stuff we have, though I will admit to not reading his paper or the sample size that was used.

I mention my skepticism because I've noted that injured players often adopt an abbreviated serve. Perhaps that is to protect other joints rather than the the shoulder.

I can see that the abbreviated serve may make more demands on the muscles involved in external rotation because the larger back muscles aren't used as much to swing the racket up and into an external rotation position. Interesting subject.

Yes it is curious that quite a few players, while recovering from injuries or recovery from surgery, have temporarily adopted an abbreviated motion. A few that come to mind are Andre Agassi, Maria Sharapova and Todd Martin.

I have sustained shoulder/rotator injuries myself. These injuries came about from flawed volleyball mechanics and from 2 auto accidents -- (very limited external rotation and nerve damage that affects abduction and forward flexion). At times, when my shoulder has bothered me, I have oftne switched to an abbreviated motion. In those cases, it appeared to be less stressful rather than more stressful to the shoulder. But that could very well be specific to my shoulder issues and my particular implementation of the abbreviated motion.

 

[Spin Doctor]

Deleted........

 

[dgold44]

Utterly amazing the "hand eye coordination" that both Mac and SAmpras have in their "DNA" to be able to coordinate all those moving parts together. Not to mention dealing with sunlight and wind and of course playing in the biggest arenas.
Both serves look so complex that is hard to too figure out.
Turning your back like Mac makes it even more difficult and Sampras really has a big lag but who am I to say anything.

 

[dgold44]

my $0.02

I've been hitting with an abbreviated type of serve... ever since I saw roddick do it...
I never felt comfortable with the longer traditional windup.
The main issue was the my toss motion was terrible, so the high toss required for the longer wind up, was never accurate... I found the shorter toss much more manageable.
I still continue to tweak my serve, but definitely find the abbreviated motion much better for me to time, and coordinate.

I find how long the pause is dependent on how high the toss is... just make sure you're loading all the right things (eg. shoulder turn and tilt, knee bend, hip thrust, etc...), and not eliminating some loads (which I have the tendency to under pressure, because I tend to toss lower)

NYT, your 2 cents is always very valuable to me. I am going to start working on this as I have shadow it hundreds of times in the mirror now. Next phase is to hit the practice courts and try it out.
I have learned so much about so many key parts of the serve from SA and others. Amazing stuff.

BtW, do you get a lot of finger and toe pain from BJJ ??

 

[dgold44]

I think Gasquet has the most beautiful and perfect looking abrev. serve in the game.
Looks so clean and flawless. I dont see any lag at all and that is the serve I am going to try to work on. I cannot wait to practice this one and will repost a new video in 2 months of my new serve .

I am a very patient man as it took me several months to change my backhand grip and add a loop motion. This took my BH from 3.7 to 4.2 level.

 

[dgold44]

It has helped me a lot. I don't even do the Roddick 'up and down' motion. I just bring the racquet straight back toward the trophy pose. It has helped me obtain a good coil, and a natural "elbow the enemy" that Salzenstein talked about in his video.

That is exactly what Frenchmen Gasquet does and I will be changing to that serve, soon. My traditional serve has been a disaster for 15 years and time to scrap it and re-start.

 

[dgold44]

That is exactly what Frenchmen Gasquet does and I will be changing to that serve, soon. My traditional serve has been a disaster for 15 years and time to scrap it and re-start.

Roddick has a really deep V arm bend in the trophy pose. He really lowers really down. I think all the way to his waist, maybe.

 

[dgold44]

You should speak to a knowledgable coach about increased shoulder loads in the case of an abbreviated serve
Increased loads are one of reasons the abbreviated serve is NOT taught frequently.
Trying to learn it online is another issue
Julian W.Mielniczuk
Www.julianmielniczuk.usptapro.com

I cannot find any quality pros in Portland.
My current pro is very good at teaching me groundies and volleys but did not help me much on serve. Still he really helped me a ton. That is the best pro I found in Oregon after trying out several. One guy was even top 300 and the most terrible coach I have ever had.The guy seemed to know nothing about teaching technique and would constantly glance at any ladies walking around too. He could play very well and would be the 5.0 guys about 6-0 and 6-0.

 

[dgold44]

Interesting topic. I don't know if there really is a consensus on this. Some sources have suggested that there is less stress with an abbreviated serve motion while others have suggested there is increased loading. I'm thinking that the particular implementation of an abbreviated motion could have a strong bearing on this.

For a moment, let's consider a full motion serve that includes hitches or aberrations. There are a lot of servers out there with a flawed full-motion serve. Such a serve may very well be more stressful to the shoulder/rotator than a mechanically correct (or superior) full-motion serve. If those hitches or aberrations can be eliminated by switching to a simpler serve or an abbreviated serve, the result could very well mean less shoulder stress. OTOH, some implementations of the abbreviated serve might very well still be stressful while other implementations might not be.

I would be more interested in hearing about studies that suggest increased shoulder loading. I have come across a bit of this but I'm not sure if the findings were conclusive. I have come across a statement made by Whitney Kraft, the Director of Tennis at the USTA National Tennis Center. He mentions a study that had hypothesized that an abbreviated technique places more stress on the anterior shoulder. However, he indicates that the study discounted this theory.

"There have been several studies addressing the two types of backswings, as well as stance types; foot-up (Roddick) vs. foot-back (Federer). The studies sought to ascertain two separate, but related dynamics; racquet head speed and shoulder stress. The results demonstrated differences in how the racquet speed was generated, but that ultimately the speed was determined by the biomechanical qualities within each respective technique, not by the technique in and of itself.

This was also true for shoulder stress. There was hypothesis that the abbreviated technique placed more stress to the anterior shoulder, but the study discounted the theory, and same for foot-back stance. The rotator cuff vulnerability during overhead “throwing” movements; is ability to stabilize and decelerate internal rotation of the upper arm.

Probably the most determinant factor in high quality/low stress service motions is the “shoulder-over-shoulder” movement, which is created by the lower body and torso kinetic loading phase…creating that “trophy pose” when releasing the toss. Without the cartwheel-like full shoulder-over-shoulder rotation; the upper arm is placed into a greater (more stressful) joint angle and subsequently increases the key compensatory (kinematics) stresses in the upper arm velocity and deceleration effort, and onward down the chain to elbow and wrist."

https://www.usta.com/Improve-Your-Game/Instruction/Feature/0717_Service_Toss_and_Motion/

Sorry to hear about your Shoulder problems!!!! I cannot wait to repost my new and improved serve in a few months to see what people think. Unforntately just my luck, I cannot practice it all week because my club is hosting a tennis tourney and all courts are booked up except for Saturday night ??? I have watched tons of videos to more fully understand all your analysis that was over my head.
I assume you are probably an engineer or Tech person. So far, I think Gasquet has the most clean and best motion on this type of serve, by far.

 

[julian]

As i said before my timing and mechanics are very lousy with the classical wind up type of serve that I am totally dumping it and trying a simpler type of serve. ( this post is not about me again lol but to see if others like this kind of serve). You guys and gals were great at giving me details.

Has anybody made this transaction and was it pretty easy. I know Roddick is best known for it.
Still confused if Nadal uses this serve because some clips it looked like he has a abbrev. serve and others looked like a more wind up serve.

This is what I read about it , so far last nite

1) Both arms go up together
2) The racket and tossing arm never go below your waste. Nothing happens below the waist.
3) Lower ball toss
4) just get right into the trophy pose like an Overhead.

Finally does this affect if I should pause at the tropy position or is that just dependent on whether my toss is too high ???

I am shadowing the entire motion in the mirror and will try it on the courts on Sunday, I think.

About 18 months ago, I dumped my old backhand by changing grips and adding a loop and after 6 months it went from a 3.7 level to a solid 4.2 . So I hope, I get another gold medal for patience, again.

To find a pro please go to
Www.usptafindpro.com
Please put Portland Oregon
You will find 44 entries
Please let me know whether I could be of more help

 

[fuzz nation]

I was entertained by Braden's articles when I was a kid just learning tennis. But I'm not sure that I'd cite him as an expert on much of anything.

I never really gathered much from Braden in terms of technical instruction, but after I became a high school coach, I picked up his book, Mental Tennis. I can confidently say that this has been the most valuable book for me as a coach and probably as a player, too. I've read this work maybe three or four times so far and recommend it all the time.

Braden was a somewhat accomplished player in his day, but also a licensed psychologist. I'd bet that he was at least as much of a qualified expert in the mental dimensions of the game as anyone else. If you get looking for a decent read while wintering over, you may want to dig up a copy of this book.

 

[dgold44]

If you pause at trophy, how you get to trophy is not going to affect the power of your serve. Look at Gasquet.

I think after looking at several abbrev. serves that Gasquets serve looks the most crisp,clean and best. Then again, all his shots look perfect. I guess that might be why he is always in the top 10.

 

[heninfan99]

And just know that I have him serving 131 against Marat Safin in Dubai on DVD.

I think Gasquet has the most beautiful and perfect looking abrev. serve in the game.
Looks so clean and flawless. I dont see any lag at all and that is the serve I am going to try to work on. I cannot wait to practice this one and will repost a new video in 2 months of my new serve .

I am a very patient man as it took me several months to change my backhand grip and add a loop motion. This took my BH from 3.7 to 4.2 level.

 

[dgold44]

Henin, My first day at my abbrev. serve and already was able to land with more power and consistency. Very good start. I think I have the most posts on Serves in the last 2 months on this board, by far. Not sure if that is a good thing lol. Also used my left arm better and got into trophy fast and used more legs. Used left arm by bringing in to body.

The Aussie is out of the question but the French is still a possibility in May.

I am dead serious the French !!! At least that is the name of the local tournament in Vancouver , WA lol
Not the real one in Paris lol. The 4.5 one in Vancouver that is on lousy beaten up hard court and inside.

 

[dgold44]

I already won the real FRench open a few times because my screen name says Hall of FAme !!!

 

[heninfan99]

I'd look into getting a pair of the Wawrinka shorts then.

Henin, My first day at my abbrev. serve and already was able to land with more power and consistency. Very good start. I think I have the most posts on Serves in the last 2 months on this board, by far. Not sure if that is a good thing lol. Also used my left arm better and got into trophy fast and used more legs. Used left arm by bringing in to body.

The Aussie is out of the question but the French is still a possibility in May.

I am dead serious the French !!! At least that is the name of the local tournament in Vancouver , WA lol
Not the real one in Paris lol. The 4.5 one in Vancouver that is on lousy beaten up hard court and inside.

 

[Chas Tennis]

...........................................................
I think Gordon's work on the increased loading is probably the most scientific stuff we have,........................................
..........................................................................................
I can see that the abbreviated serve may make more demands on the muscles involved in external rotation because the larger back muscles aren't used as much to swing the racket up and into an external rotation position. Interesting subject.

If you have the Gordon reference, please post?

 

[Chas Tennis]

There are biomechanically important motions in the serve that have obvious purposes and been thoroughly discussed in tennis serve research for the last 20 years, such as the very significant external shoulder rotation (ESR)- internal shoulder rotation (ISR) stretch shorten cycle. There are other serve motions that seem like options where it is hard see what the important biomechanical functions might be. ? The closer to ball impact, the more the same biomechanics is used and can be identified in high speed videos.

Comparing Roddick to Sampras, does Roddick have an abbreviated serve? In high speed videos, where do we first see that difference?

How about Wawrinka compared to Sampras?

 

[heninfan99]

The abbreviated motion is going straight up to the power position with the arms.
No, Wawrinka's serve isn't abbreviated and obviously very diff from Sampras --pin point vs platform for starters.

Do you dislike the abbr. motion for some reason?

Comparing Roddick to Sampras, does Roddick have an abbreviated serve? In high speed videos, where do we first see that difference?

How about Wawrinka compared to Sampras?

 

[Chas Tennis]

The abbreviated motion is going straight up to the power position with the arms.
No, Wawrinka's serve isn't abbreviated and obviously very diff from Sampras --pin point vs platform for starters.

Do you dislike the abbr. motion for some reason?

Three of the most common techniques around Trophy Position are -
1) I would say that Wawrinka goes to Trophy Position and then stops his ESR and pauses. That seems effectively an abbreviated serve but I'm not sure of a clear definition of what an 'abbreviated serve' is.
2) Sharapova goes to Trophy Position right from the toss. She starts ESR from that position.
3) Roddick rotates forearm and racket up and back using external shoulder rotation with no pause at Trophy Position. I'd say that is effectively the same as Sampras's motion and many others. That forearm & racket up and back is used as part of the important ESR-ISR stretch shorten cycle. Based on the small sample that I've looked at, most top servers use this technique, so I like this technique.

The three methods above are seen in high speed videos of the serve.

I don't like poorly defined terms as I suspect 'abbreviated motion' is. Poorly defined terms lead to endless discussions and not much progress in broadening understanding. You usually can't Google a poorly defined tennis term and cover most of its usage.

I've heard Roddick's motion called 'abbreviated'. The most important biomechanics of Roddick's motion, seems very similar to Sampras's regarding the common essential biomechanics, in my opinion.

Probably all strong servers follow the well described serve moves: Leg Thrust, Cartwheel, Trunk Twist or Turn, Somersault. These have been described in tennis biomechanics texts by B. Elliott and others. I discovered this stuff 16 years after clear publications began but not everyone has signed up......

 

[heninfan99]

I first heard that term in the 90s from a commentator.
"Drawing the curtains" doesn't feel comfortable for some of us and, it turns out, is superfluous. So that's the part that's abbreviated.
Maybe a better term is needed.

I don't like poorly defined terms as I suspect 'abbreviated motion' is. Poorly defined terms lead to endless discussions. I've heard Roddick's motion called 'abbreviated'. The most important biomechanics of Roddicksin my opinion seem very similar to Sampras's.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

... Comparing Roddick to Sampras, does Roddick have an abbreviated serve? In high speed videos, where do we first see that difference?

How about Wawrinka compared to Sampras?

An "abbreviated" serve motion refers (primarily) to the racket preparation phase --- how the arm and racket get to the trophy phase. From the trophy phase, onward, you will see fewer variations in the basic mechanics -- (Racket Drop, Leg Thrust, Cartwheel, Trunk Twist or Turn, Somersault, etc). However, there are so many variations on the preparation for elite servers -- be it abbreviated, full motion or hybrid -- that is might be difficult to pin down a concise definition for "abbreviated" or hybrid.

With full-motion serves, the racket head drops from its starting position. The arm straightens and the arm/racket starts a pendulum motion prior to the trophy phase. We see a fairly long pendulum phase with Stan or Roger before the elbow is bent to get the arm/racket to the trophy position. With Pete, we see the drop and a short pendulum action before the arm bends. From there we see an ESR to get to the trophy position. This might be considered one type of hybrid preparation. There are other, more abbreviated hybrid motions by other servers as well.

With ARod, his racket hardly drops at all and we don't really see the pendulum motion that I spoke of. His arm never straightens to get to his trophy position. With a bent arm, he pulls his elbow back to the trophy position early. It is this action of the elbow back with a bent arm that appears to be a key feature of an abbreviated motion. It is not just an upper arm movement, however. Andy is also using his torso coil to get the elbow into position.

Andy does employ some racket head lag and ESR to get the racket head to the trophy position. His is not the simplest of abbreviated preparations. Perhaps one might even call it something of a hybrid motion -- bit it is certainly different than the fuller hybrid motion that Pete employs. The abbreviated motions demonstrated by Salzenstein, Brady and Gasquet are a bit simpler than Roddick's implementation.

 

[Chas Tennis]

An "abbreviated" serve motion refers (primarily) to the racket preparation phase --- how the arm and racket get to the trophy phase. From the trophy phase, onward, you will see last variation in the basic mechanics -- (Racket Drop, Leg Thrust, Cartwheel, Trunk Twist or Turn, Somersault, etc). However, there are so many variations on the preparation for elite servers -- be it abbreviated, full motion or hybrid -- that is might be difficult to pin down a concise definition for "abbreviated" or hybrid.

With full-motion serves, the racket head drops from its starting position. The arm straightens and the arm/racket starts a pendulum motion prior to the trophy phase. We see a fairly long pendulum phase with Stan or Roger before the elbow is bent to get the arm/racket to the trophy position. With Pete, we see the drop and a short pendulum action before the arm bends. From there we see an ESR to get to the trophy position. This might be considered one type of hybrid preparation. There are other, more abbreviated hybrid motions by other servers as well.

With ARod, his racket hardly drops at all and we don't really see the pendulum motion that I spoke of. His arm never straightens to get to his trophy position. With a bent arm, he pulls his elbow back to the trophy position early. It is this action of the elbow back with a bent arm that appears to be a key feature of an abbreviated motion. It is not just an upper arm movement, however. Andy is also using his torso coil to get the elbow into position.

Andy does employ some racket head lag and ESR to get the racket head to the trophy position. His is not the simplest of abbreviated preparations. Perhaps one might even call it something of a hybrid motion -- bit it is certainly different than the fuller hybrid motion that Pete employs. The abbreviated motions demonstrated by Slazenstein, Brady and Gasquet are a bit simpler than Roddick's implementation.

Sampras has the motion that I believe represents most of the important biomechanics.

The video shows the point that his elbow is bent at about 90°(see blue angle at elbow) and his upper arm has been abducted to about 90°to the side of his chest (seen blue angle at side). He rotates his upper arm by external shoulder rotation moving his forearm and racket up then back (see red arrow). That begins the significant external shoulder rotation used to pre-stretch the internal shoulder rotation muscles, for the special stretch shorten cycle for the serve. He does not pause at Trophy Position but keeps built up speed to continue on for added external shoulder rotation and muscle stretch.

Watch the part of the serve shown in the picture, the forearm and racket go to Trophy Position but do not stop as discussed above.

The majority of high level servers use this same motion to Trophy Position that Sampras uses. How much it ads to either ISR speed or to swing speed is not clear. Roddick has this ESR motion to Trophy Position also but might add an extra SSC just before the upward motion. ?

Wawrinka uses this ESR motion somewhat up to Trophy Position but then stops and pauses so that he loses any momentum that he has built up going to Trophy Position. It's a different motion.

Sharapova has a very high toss, must pause to wait for the ball to come down, and does not use this common part of the service motion at all. Look for it, it's not there. It's a third basic motion around Trophy Position.

While Sampras, Wawrinka and Sharapova all use very different motions going to Trophy Position, ironically, still photographs of them at Trophy Position all look similar.

I can't see the significance of other earlier motions before this phase to the biomechanics of the serve. Can anyone see some important biomechanics in earlier motions, for example, of earlier arm straight or not straight or any other earlier motions? They really must not mean anything more significant than the three different motions being used to go to Trophy Position as above. ?

If other motions before going to Trophy Position are identified as 'abbreviated' does anyone know why they are important? How do these 'abbreviated motions' relate to the motions described above?