Drop first then swing

[Curious]

Cmon man, this is not very clean:

It’s not terrible of course, and stiff Pure Aero compensates for this, but it’s the reason the ball bounced inside the service box.

The swing itself is good for low ball, just you calling it “most correct” triggered me

It’s kind of reminded me of a coach yelling “Best forehand you hit today!”

Never mind. It doesn’t work that way in match play anyway. I need something much more repeatable. I’ll try a very compact top spin and if that doesn’t work either I’ll settle on continental everything.

 

[zill]

No. Not what I am saying. You didn’t even have the racquet in a proper take back position. Where you have it is already dropped, in my book.

The fh could not be more simple. Just keep listening to any idiot that can post a video on YouTube. It’s worked for you so far!

I didn't post that vid. I have not learnt anything useful on the internet about the fh. I deduced my technique from almost 6 years of experimentation.

 

[Dragy]

There are 3 ways to do this.
1. What ballmachineguy advocates ( I think)
2. As explained by the coach in the first video.
3. The way we don’t wanna do it!

The thing with “big loop” you demonstrate which many miss completely: you show it as continuous motion to hit a ball, and for sure this looks harder to time!

It is not a back-and-forth loop to hit the ball. It is high back preparation, done in advance, by the ball bounce. Then drop to enter the desired slot and pre-set the desired swing path. Then accelerated swing.

And no, these 3 are not robotic and separated, they are flowing one into the other.

What you demonstrate as “wrong” is when they don’t understand the “find the slot” phase and try to just swing at the ball.

Doing it @zill way is kind of patching the issue, but with its own costs, we covered it many times.

 

[Dragy]

Never mind. It doesn’t work that way in match play anyway. I need something much more repeatable. I’ll try a very compact top spin and if that doesn’t work either I’ll settle on continental everything.

And then you’ll re-enter the loop trying some player’s forehand secret as a solution

In my opinion, your forehands in pointplay are good. You can work on improving them, footwork was good idea among other. But going continental will be an obvious downgrade.

 

[zill]

My mistake. No one really knows what you’re saying. It’s still a secret!

Sorry what is still a secret?

 

[zill]

The thing with “big loop” you demonstrate which many miss completely: you show it as continuous motion to hit a ball, and for sure this looks harder to time!

It is not a back-and-forth loop to hit the ball. It is high back preparation, done in advance, by the ball bounce. Then drop to enter the desired slot and pre-set the desired swing path. Then accelerated swing.

And no, these 3 are not robotic and separated, they are flowing one into the other.

What you demonstrate as “wrong” is when they don’t understand the “find the slot” phase and try to just swing at the ball.

Doing it @zill way is kind of patching the issue, but with its own costs, we covered it many times.

Sorry what costs are you talking about here? Do you have a problem with my forward swing apart from slight lifting of the head?

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Never mind. It doesn’t work that way in match play anyway. I need something much more repeatable. I’ll try a very compact top spin and if that doesn’t work either I’ll settle on continental everything.

Continental everything? Where did you pull this misguided solution from? A compact takeback sounds like a better idea. But an abbreviated (compact) follow-thru is not usually required. A full, low-to-high follow-thru is a normal byproduct of decent RHS and topspin action.

 

[Dragy]

Sorry what costs are you talking about here? Do you have a problem with my forward swing apart from slight lifting of the head?

I haven’t seen a traditional angle and playing points, so I’m not in position to judge.

I, if using your technique, would have problems with chest-height balls, and particularly when I want to drive them rather than brush.

 

[zill]

I haven’t seen a traditional angle and playing points, so I’m not in position to judge.

I, if using your technique, would have problems with chest-height balls, and particularly when I want to drive them rather than brush.

Remember my strong sw grip. High balls are easy for me! But brushing is a big part of the modern fh. It’s all wind shield wiper forehands these days.

 

[Curious]

Sorry what is still a secret?

No one knows exactly what he’s talking about. Only him.

 

[Curious]

In my opinion, your forehands in pointplay are good.

I trust my first serve more than my rally forehand. Isn’t that a problem?

 

[Dragy]

Remember my strong sw grip. High balls are easy for me! But brushing is a big part of the modern fh. It’s all wind shield wiper forehands these days.

Yes, but last time I asked you said you were hitting from 1-2 meter behind the baseline. I take chest height balls from half step inside the baseline, for example.

There’s the way to hit those well starting from really low. Rafa displays some crazy one every now and then. But I’m no Rafa to pull this out. I need more Djokovic-like swing.

 

[Dragy]

I trust my first serve more than my rally forehand. Isn’t that a problem?

This is usually solved by mileage, relaxation, more neutral focus rather than “hurt him right now”, clean contacts. And by sticking with one set of fundamentals without tinkering with grips, swings, etc. Only adjusting and delivering more diligence in preparation, execution…

I’ve been in no-trust zone for too long. Although I miss enough, I’m now confident with what I do and keep swinging rallies get longer or winners come earlier, overall.

 

[user92626]

There’s no logic in calling the left pic “slot”. If you want to call it power position, I at least get where you are coming from.

The way you interpret this makes your individual stroke: you don’t reach the Djokovic left pic position at all, you do as you say: put it back down, then pull from there.

Most pro players’ swings are different from what you do. Just a statement, not discussing here if you are wrong.

How are most pro players' swings different ? From Djo's left picture to right picture, what else can one focus on to do?

 

[Curious]

This is usually solved by mileage, relaxation, more neutral focus rather than “hurt him right now”, clean contacts. And by sticking with one set of fundamentals without tinkering with grips, swings, etc. Only adjusting and delivering more diligence in preparation, execution…

I’ve been in no-trust zone for too long. Although I miss enough, I’m now confident with what I do and keep swinging rallies get longer or winners come earlier, overall.

I want to simplify it to the simplest. Almost like returning a first serve as I mentioned earlier.

 

[Dragy]

I want to simplify it to the simplest. Almost like returning a first serve as I mentioned earlier.

But most shots you face carry no power of incoming first serve to use… or go granny stick

 

[Dragy]

How are most pro players' swings different ? From Djo's left picture to right picture, what else can one focus on to do?

Compared to @zill technique, most players prepare higher and earlier, then drop as low as they need as they start uncoiling towards the ball (or barely drop, if they want to swing level onto high ball). But they can abbreviate to zill-like technique if they face faster deeper ball or serve they take from close-up.

 

[Curious]

But most shots you face carry no power of incoming first serve to use… or go granny stick

I think they have enough to hit back deep with enough spin without a lot of racket head speed.

 

[user92626]

No

yes

 

[Dragy]

I think they have enough to hit back deep with enough spin without a lot of racket head speed.

You can absolutely try it. Again, imagine you are cooperatively playing an old lady and want to give her solid deep enough balls… hit high enough over the net, flush clean contact, moderate topspin. Not trying to raise RHS to extreme, but full follow-through…

Actually thinking about your opponent as on old lady might be a nice mind trick

 

[Curious]

Compared to @zill technique, most players prepare higher and earlier, then drop as low as they need as they start uncoiling towards the ball (or barely drop, if they want to swing level onto high ball). But they can abbreviate to zill-like technique if they face faster deeper ball or serve they take from close-up.

Isn’t Rune’s take back somewhat similar to zill’s? His hand doesn’t really make a loop, pretty much goes straight back linearly.

 

[Dragy]

Isn’t Rune’s take back somewhat similar to zill’s? His hand doesn’t really make a loop, pretty much goes straight back linearly.

Yes, rather similar. From some angles though @zill looks like sticking it down much more, while Rune still goes straight back, not down. Maybe just camera thing.

 

[user92626]

Compared to @zill technique, most players prepare higher and earlier, then drop as low as they need as they start uncoiling towards the ball (or barely drop, if they want to swing level onto high ball). But they can abbreviate to zill-like technique if they face faster deeper ball or serve they take from close-up.

I see. I didn't see zill's fh or technique though.

Maybe zill's fh's path is just funkier and more rec-like than pro-like, but what I was trying to get at is... From Djokovic's left pix to right pix (notice it's Djokovic and not zill is my question), what else do you do other than press the racket down and then swing forward?

 

[Curious]

Yes, rather similar. From some angles though @zill looks like sticking it down much more, while Rune still goes straight back, not down. Maybe just camera thing.

I think the main difference is Rune’s hand is pretty low but racket head is still up. Zill drops both all the way.

 

[GAS]

Here is my drop

IMG-9977 hosted at ImgBB

Image IMG-9977 hosted in ImgBB

ibb.co

Curious is doing this way better.

 

[user92626]

See @zill forehand again.

That's @zill 's permanent, settle-for FH? That's what he came down from the mountain with after 15 years of research and training ? what zill claimed but don't quote me

I'm just curious!

 

[Dragy]

Maybe zill's fh's path is just funkier and more rec-like than pro-like, but what I was trying to get at is... From Djokovic's left pix to right pix (notice it's Djokovic and not zill is my question), what else do you do other than press the racket down and then swing forward?

I would usually focus on placing my wrist where I want it before accelerating at the ball (not racquet, but wrist!), as well as putting arm and forearm into proper shape (straighten and rotating elbow down, ulnar side forward, whatever you call it). I don’t think in terms of ESR of course, but still sometimes need to control this part when practicing, conscious competence stage. Gives good results.

Other things might be moving into the ball or angled away from the ball dependent on what kind of shot I’m going for… sometimes less controlled, sometimes mindful enough.

So key things:
- begin the body move as intended - weight shift, uncoil, or just twist in place
- put the hand where I need it, down, inside between hip and the ball or more behind the ball, etc. (aka drop)
- swivel the racquet into buttcap-forward together with arm extension and rotating into elbow-down.

Best these all to happen intuitively being well trained and ingrained via practice

 

[AnyPUG]

Sorry, it doesn’t work in match play. In the heat of the moment, everything all over the place, it’s impossible to drop it nicely and swing forward like that. Has to be much more simple to work consistently when it counts.

Imo, the tension does not allow the drop.
But once the courage settles in, it should work??

 

[Curious]

Curious is doing this way better.

He can hit very consistent and heavy forehands. I faced them.

 

[zill]

This is usually solved by mileage, relaxation, more neutral focus rather than “hurt him right now”, clean contacts. And by sticking with one set of fundamentals without tinkering with grips, swings, etc. Only adjusting and delivering more diligence in preparation, execution…

I’ve been in no-trust zone for too long. Although I miss enough, I’m now confident with what I do and keep swinging rallies get longer or winners come earlier, overall.

Just remind me @Dragy what is your UTR or your estimation if you don't have one?

 

[zill]

He can hit very consistent and heavy forehands. I faced them.

Mate let me know when you want to spar again. Am always down for it.

 

[zill]

I want to simplify it to the simplest. Almost like returning a first serve as I mentioned earlier.

2 turns then forward. That is it. As simple as I can reduce it the topspin groundstroke.

btw the service return is 1 turn then forward.

 

[Curious]

Imo, the tension does not allow the drop.
But once the courage settles in, it should work??

Tension is a big factor for sure. I don’t mean just nerves, the tension from not being in good position, from being unbalanced and trying to make the shot happen.

 

[zill]

Isn’t Rune’s take back somewhat similar to zill’s? His hand doesn’t really make a loop, pretty much goes straight back linearly.

less compact than mine. In between mine and Djokovic's. But closer to Djokovic's.

 

[zill]

That's @zill 's permanent, settle-for FH?

For sure. Have been for the last 1.5 years actually.

That's what he came down from the mountain with after 15 years of research and training ? what zill claimed but don't quote me

I'm just curious!

Actually only needed half the time less than 6 years but not in the mountains in isolation. Have a basement wall to test my theories 24/7 rain or shine and played many matches and practiced with many different players on the court. Need both court and wall time. Must be concurrent.

 

[GAS]

He can hit very consistent and heavy forehands. I faced them.

I think it's the grunting that adds to the weight of the ball

That "drop" position is obviously incorrect. It's also an injury risk, my subscapularis hurts just by looking at it.

 

[user92626]

2 turns then forward. That is it. As simple as I can reduce it the topspin groundstroke.

btw the service return is 1 turn then forward.

wutchumean by 2 turns, 1 turn?

 

[zill]

wutchumean by 2 turns, 1 turn?

2 turns:
1. Turn
2. Rotate


1 turn:
Half baked Turn and Rotation together depending on the serve received

 

[Fintft]

Sorry, it doesn’t work in match play. In the heat of the moment, everything all over the place, it’s impossible to drop it nicely and swing forward like that. Has to be much more simple to work consistently when it counts.

Practice makes perfect.

 

[Curious]

I think it's the grunting that adds to the weight of the ball

That "drop" position is obviously incorrect. It's also an injury risk, my subscapularis hurts just by looking at it.

Don’t get fooled by how it looks. He can play bloody good tennis! It’s a shame he ditched the one hander though.

 

[zill]

Don’t get fooled by how it looks. He can play bloody good tennis! It’s a shame he ditched the one hander though.

Oh please! I can't watch myself pre knee injury. Even though the technique here was not optimal. My movement now is at best 20% how I use to move! Can't bear myself watching this! And I played this match after riding over 20km to get to that court.

That head tilt on the fh though was so much worse then lol

 

[zill]

Don’t get fooled by how it looks. He can play bloody good tennis! It’s a shame he ditched the one hander though.

To me it's a shame you haven't given up the 1hb and adopted the 2hb yet!

 

[Curious]

To me it's a shame you haven't given up the 1hb and adopted the 2hb yet!

I hit quite a few good backhands today. Even better, some drive backhand returns.

 

[Dragy]

Just remind me @Dragy what is your UTR or your estimation if you don't have one?

I don’t have one and I’ve never played a UTR or NTRP player I’m aware of.

I’ve got some footage from 1+ year ago, haven’t filmed for a while.

Here are practice games:

Here is “as tight as it gets” playing match TB against that guy you cannot loose to:

 

[Fintft]

I don’t have one and I’ve never played a UTR or NTRP player I’m aware of.

I’ve got some footage from 1+ year ago, haven’t filmed for a while.

Here are practice games:

Here is “as tight as it gets” playing match TB against that guy you cannot loose to:

Nice, but:

1. You are not swinging very fast.
2. Getting in position could be better.
3. The opponent in the first video is not putting any pressure on you. He is weak.
   
   
   Cheers!

 

[ballmachineguy]

I hit quite a few good backhands today. Even better, some drive backhand returns.

I bet your front foot was down before the racquet dropped from its take back position!

I’ve been the only person on here that consistently claims your fh has a fatal flaw. You never listen. It’s either “you don’t even play tennis” or “that’s not an important part of a fh” and here you still are. You keep looking for fixes in places you aren’t going to find them. You ever think maybe I know what I’m talking about? You’re gonna do you.

 

[Dragy]

Nice, but:

1. You are not swinging very fast.
2. Getting in position could be better.
3. The opponent in the first video is not putting any pressure on you. He is weak.
   
   
   Cheers!

For 1 and 2 - yeah, absolutely!

For 3, maybe there’s something in this particular video, and you don’t know him like I do obviously. But he’s a rarer one who does put pressure. If I don’t control the point, he gets me on the ropes. Hits hard and to corners.

He’s a bit new to tennis, just couple of years of taking it seriously. But his progress is incredible. He beats me if play in tournament handily, and beats a ton of other players, really high win rate.

In practice he goes for more to stretch and develop, hence missing more. And also I give him less rhythm than typical tournament players, so less control from him… but I may just miss too much playing this way.

1 year later, he’s better and really solid now. But for shoulder and back injuries he suffers with at times.

 

[5263]

I can never make it through any of these videos. Struggled to get almost halfway through. No wonder no one can learn anything. There’s not even such a thing as the “slot” position. I wonder how people that become tour pros learn the fh if no one knows how to even teach it?

what do you mean there is no slot? How do you deny it even if you don't prefer it?

 

[5263]

Yes, rather similar. From some angles though @zill looks like sticking it down much more, while Rune still goes straight back, not down. Maybe just camera thing.

Rune with flattish Fade Drive here taking it on the rise as the ball will rise up to the tape for contact.... but he is still correctly below that contact height with the racket well aligned from tip to butt with contact height. Imo he should hit this geometry earlier in his swing, but at least he gets here in this swing.

 

[ballmachineguy]

what do you mean there is no slot? How do you deny it even if you don't prefer it?

https://imgur.com/a/1fYbqaW

People treat the “slot position” as a place to “put” the racquet. That is why so many struggle. You may have an idea about where the flip is gonna happen, but if you are trying to determine that and “put” the racquet there, you are doing it wrong.