DjokoGOAT
Semi-Pro
2-1 at slams vs Thiem who would be a 3 slam champ with no big 2.
Djokodal managed to stop future gens from becoming ATGs which Federer failed to do.
Federer could have won the majority of his slams since 2008 if not for Djokodal
- Thread starter Lew II
- Start date
Djokodal managed to stop future gens from becoming ATGs which Federer failed to do.
Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
Yet another Djokotroll who joined two days ago to spread his infinite wisdom to TTW... You know it's bad when every single one of your 17 posts includes some form of the "Djokovic is the best, Federer sucks" rhetoric.
King No1e
G.O.A.T.
He's 2-2 first of all. He did get routed at RG17.
If the best talent of the next 5 years can only manage 3 Slams without any older competition, that's still weak. McEnroe had Lendl. Lendl had Becker. Becker had Sampras and Agassi. Sampras and Agassi had to deal with Kuerten, Hewitt, Safin, Kafelnikov in their late careers, several players who would've won more than 2-3 had it not been for his generation. This current era only has 1 player who could've won 3 if not for the older gen. Historically weak.
Djokovic has 17 Slams. He deserves every single one of his 17 (and counting) Slams. Same with Nadal's 19 and Fed's 20. But let's not pretend that he had extraordinary resistance from the younger generation.
King No1e
G.O.A.T.
I mean.....it's better than having every single one of your 17,000 posts like that. *cough*Lew*cough*
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Evidence? It's a well known fact that court speeds for grass and HC started slowing down in the 00 decade. They've varied somewhat in the past 10-18 years.
It's also well know that Roger had the edge with faster court speeds -- speeds that were closer to those of the 80s and 90s. When HC and grass were made slower, Novak and Rafa found it easier to win those venues. AO has typically been slower than Cincy, Shanghai and the USO.
Had not heard about ace counts going up. Exactly what time period are you referring to? Do you have a source that indicates this?
But aces don't necessarily tell the whole story. String & frame technology play a part as well.
Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
I mean, with Lew, while it's obvious that he has an agenda, that agenda is mostly just "Djokovic is the best player of the Big 3". While this does get annoying and repetitive a lot of the time, I rarely see Lew actually act bitter towards Federer. You know what I mean?
Lew is basically saying: "Djokovic is better, and here's why."
This new troll is basically saying: "Djokovic is better, Federer is weaker, here's why."
Subtle difference, but it's a big one.
DjokoGOAT
Semi-Pro
It is true nextgen isn’t quite as strong as the 2008-2016 period (see who won most slams vs strong opponents) but maybe without Djokodal dominating Nishikori, Dimitrov, Raonic, Thiem etc could have won multiple slams and be on their way to become ATG.
DjokoGOAT
Semi-Pro
I do enjoy watching Federer play as a tennis fan, but he has been exposed big time since 2008 when he had to face strong opponents instead of Roddick, Hewitt, bagdhatis, Philippoussis, crippled agassi. Djokovic has a higher peak at all slams, has won 4 slams in a row vs strong opponents, golden masters, highest ELO, highest prize money ever highest point total ever.
AnOctorokForDinner
Talk Tennis Guru
^
Nishikori, Dimitrov, Raonic, Thiem = potential ATGs
but
Roddick, Hewitt, Safin = weak era mugs
Elementary, my dear Watson...
Nishikori, Dimitrov, Raonic, Thiem = potential ATGs
but
Roddick, Hewitt, Safin = weak era mugs
Elementary, my dear Watson...
DjokoGOAT
Semi-Pro
credit to @Lew II
Slam score against non-Big4:
Tsonga 116-28 (80.6%)
Raonic 86-22 (79.6%)
Cilic 119-32 (78.8%)
Nishikori 93-25 (78.8%)
Berdych 140-42 (76.9%)
Ferrer 142-49 (74.3%)
Roddick 128-34 (79.0%)
Hewitt 145-48 (75.1%)
Ancic 41-15 (73.2%)
Safin 92-34 (73.0%)
Nalbandian 83-31 (72.8%)
Ferrero 98-40 (71.0%)
Hewitt isn’t actually as good as Nishikori or Raonic and I doubt he would win slams or become number 1 in the golden era (2008-2020)
Pheasant
Legend
Fed has improved so much with each year. Let's take a look at which players knocked Fed out of slams prior to the semis
2004-2009:
2004 FO: Kuerten. This guy won 3 FO titles. But we'll chalk this up as a bad upset in a 6 year span. 2004 Kuerten couldn't beat a 2010 high school girl on clay.
Now, let's look at 2010-2015:
2010 WI QF: Berdych. This dude has always been way better than Fed on grass. This was to be expected.
2011 WI QF: Tsonga: Fed blew a 2 set lead. To be fair, 2004 Fed would have lost in straight sets 6-0,6-1, 6-0. Fed overachieved here.
2012 USO QF: Berdych- the 4th best hard court player ever, trailing only Djoker, Murray, and Nadal.
2013 FO QF: Tsonga- Fed lost in straight sets. To be fair, Tsonga is way better than Kuerten and the 2006-2008 version of Nadal on clay
2013 WI 2R: Stakhovsky- This guy served like 2004 Roddick, had 1994 Sampras' net skills, and had 2004 Fed's forehand, variety, and movement.
2013 USO 4R: Robredo trashed Fed in straight sets. To be fair, this version of Robredo would have triple-bageled 2005 AO Safin on any hard court.
2014 FO 4R: Gulbis--equivalent to less-evolved 2008 Nadal on clay
2015 AO 3R: Seppi- This dude was so evolved, it's scary. Federer is still trying as good as 2015 Seppi. I think that he was close in 2020, his best level at the AO ever.
To sum up, Federer lost one match prior to the semis from 2004-2009. However, that was a terrible loss to a player that couldn't make most high school girls teams in 2010.
Federer did lose 8 times prior to the semis from 2010-2015. However, I have proven beyond all reasonable doubt that those players that Fed lost to in early rounds from 2010-2015 could have easily won CYGSs from 2004-2009. Their problem is that they faced very evolved players.
2004-2009:
2004 FO: Kuerten. This guy won 3 FO titles. But we'll chalk this up as a bad upset in a 6 year span. 2004 Kuerten couldn't beat a 2010 high school girl on clay.
Now, let's look at 2010-2015:
2010 WI QF: Berdych. This dude has always been way better than Fed on grass. This was to be expected.
2011 WI QF: Tsonga: Fed blew a 2 set lead. To be fair, 2004 Fed would have lost in straight sets 6-0,6-1, 6-0. Fed overachieved here.
2012 USO QF: Berdych- the 4th best hard court player ever, trailing only Djoker, Murray, and Nadal.
2013 FO QF: Tsonga- Fed lost in straight sets. To be fair, Tsonga is way better than Kuerten and the 2006-2008 version of Nadal on clay
2013 WI 2R: Stakhovsky- This guy served like 2004 Roddick, had 1994 Sampras' net skills, and had 2004 Fed's forehand, variety, and movement.
2013 USO 4R: Robredo trashed Fed in straight sets. To be fair, this version of Robredo would have triple-bageled 2005 AO Safin on any hard court.
2014 FO 4R: Gulbis--equivalent to less-evolved 2008 Nadal on clay
2015 AO 3R: Seppi- This dude was so evolved, it's scary. Federer is still trying as good as 2015 Seppi. I think that he was close in 2020, his best level at the AO ever.
To sum up, Federer lost one match prior to the semis from 2004-2009. However, that was a terrible loss to a player that couldn't make most high school girls teams in 2010.
Federer did lose 8 times prior to the semis from 2010-2015. However, I have proven beyond all reasonable doubt that those players that Fed lost to in early rounds from 2010-2015 could have easily won CYGSs from 2004-2009. Their problem is that they faced very evolved players.
D
Deleted member 768841
Guest
Well duh
AnOctorokForDinner
Talk Tennis Guru
Hewitt only lost to eventual champs in Slams [Federer x5, Gaudio x1, Safin x1] when he was a top player during Federer's peak, i.e. 2004-05. What do his results in any other year have to do with that, pray tell?
Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
lmao Sabratha would have had a field day with this one.
Lew II
G.O.A.T.
And he still could've won 26 slams since 2008 without Djokodal.
RelentlessAttack
Hall of Fame
Pretty much this.
The last 3 out of 4 slams at least had a NextGen in the final and in 2 they at least made it close. Thiem on Clay has been the only consistent threat from Gen useless or NextGen. Here’s a breakdown of possible slam winners over the last decade if you just took the big 3 out of the draw at the last stage where they beat someone other than each other.
AO20 - Thiem, Sandgren, Raonic
US19 - Medvedev, Berrettini, Cilic
W19, RBA, Querrey, Nishikori
RG19 - Thiem
AO19, Tsitsipas or Pouille, but they won 10 games between them in the semis
US18, Del Potro, Thiem, Nishikori
W18, Anderson, Del Potro, Nishikori
FO18 - Thiem or Delpo
AO18 - Cilic or Berdych I guess
US17 - Anderson or Delpo
W17 - Cilic or Berdych
FO17 - Wawrinka or Thiem
AO17 - Wawrinka or Dimitrov
US16 - Wawrinka
W16 - Murray
RG16 - Murray, Thiem, Berdych
AO16 - Murray, Berdych, Nishikori
US15 - Wawrinka or Cilic
W15 - Murray, Gasquet, Cilic
RG15 - Wawrinka
AO15 - Murray or Wawrinka
US14 - Cilic
W14 - Dimitrov, Raonic, Wawrinka
RG14 - Murray, Ferrer
AO14 - Wawrinka
US13 - Wawrinka, Gasquet
W13 - Murray
RG13 - Ferrer, Wawrinka
AO13 - Murray, Tsonga, Ferrer or Berdych, Wawrinka
US12 - Murray
W12 - Murray
RG12 - Tsonga, Del Potro, Ferrer
AO12 - Murray, Berdych, Ferrer
US11 - Murray, Tsonga, Tipsarević
W11 - Murray, Tsonga
RG11 - Murray, Soderling, Monfils
AO11 - Murray, Berdych, Wawrinka
US10 - Youzhny, Monfils, Soderling
W10 - Berdych, Murray
RG10 - Soderling, Melzer, Almagro
AO10 - Murray, Tsonga, Davydenko
Del Potro, Cilic are 1 year younger than Djokovic. Those two plus Nishikori first showed up in an important way 2008.
Murray, Wawrinka, Anderson, Berdych, Tsonga, Ferrer are older than Djokovic.
Obviously Djokodal have been amazing, but Thiem is the only younger gen guy that shows up as a multi slam threat, and even he seems to lose his big matches to less accomplished players (Tsitsipas, Zverev recently).
To put it another way, Thiem is the only guy to emerge in the entire decade of the 2010s to threaten for slams.
On the flip side, here breakthrough dates in the 00s, eventual slam winners only:
00 - Safin
01 - Hewitt
03 - Roddick/Federer/JCF
05 - Nadal
07 - Djokovic
08 - Murray
09 - Delpo
The narrative that the big 3 are just superhumans holding back a reservoir of younger gen talent is obviously totally wrong.
The other thing to note here is that Murray’s peak ended after W13. Could have won up to 11 slams between AO10 and W13 without the big 3. In the rest of the decade he had 6 chances (won 1).
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SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Still wondering about that link / resource that reveals the Ace count rise at W
DjokoGOAT
Semi-Pro
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
So, you're still gonna make me go searching for it. Not an easy task for my poor, aging convergence-insufficient eyes.
OTOH, the slowdown & homogenization of tennis courts in 21st century is an easy one to find since it has been written and talked about so much by numerous authoritative sources. Here is one example from 2012.
Clay, Grass, Hard Court? For Tennis's Top Players, It Doesn't Matter Anymore
If Novak Djokovic wins the French Open, he'll be the third athlete in four years to dominate on all court surfaces.
www.theatlantic.com
Over the last 10 years, changes in the playing surfaces at tennis' major tournaments have changed how the game is played, and these changes have homogenized the game...
For most of the Open Era, tennis analysts and players considered Wimbledon's grass courts to be the fastest-playing surface of the grand slams, the clay courts at Roland Garros to be the slowest, and the hard courts first used at the U.S. Open and then later at the Australian Open to fall somewhere in between. But in the late 1990s, tennis fans began complaining that tournaments outside of the French Open were boring because they lacked long, suspenseful rallies...
The proprietors of the grand slam events apparently took fans' criticisms to heart because they began tweaking the surfaces. It's been well-publicized that in the early 2000s Wimbledon's organizers changed the composition of the grass courts in an effort to make them more durable, but players said the change resulted in balls bouncing higher and slower off the new grass courts. Wimbledon's lawns began to play more like clay courts. As Patrick Hruby pointed out in a previous Atlantic article about the death of serve-and-volley tennis, British player Tim Henman told reporters in 2002 that the Wimbledon lawns were the slowest non-clay surface he had played upon all season....
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