Federer could have won the majority of his slams since 2008 if not for Djokodal
- Thread starter Lew II
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AnOctorokForDinner
Talk Tennis Guru
lol
Cilic "could have won" 3 wimbys without Big 4, Cilic > Edberg confirmed.
Ferrer could have won 4 RGs I guess, Ferrer > Kuerten confirmed!
Cilic "could have won" 3 wimbys without Big 4, Cilic > Edberg confirmed.
Ferrer could have won 4 RGs I guess, Ferrer > Kuerten confirmed!
ForehandCross
G.O.A.T.
Eh you don't need these type of inverted logic to prove your point.
Djokovic without Fedal wins RG 2007,WB 2007, USO 2007, AO 2008(Won), RG 2008, USO 2008, USO 2010.
That's 7 slams, in just 4 years, that too with a waste of an year in 2009 thrown in.
That's as much as he won till 2015.
Easily an ATG career,shows you how awesome young Djokovic was but was beaten by Fedal.
Djokovic without Fedal wins RG 2007,WB 2007, USO 2007, AO 2008(Won), RG 2008, USO 2008, USO 2010.
That's 7 slams, in just 4 years, that too with a waste of an year in 2009 thrown in.
That's as much as he won till 2015.
Easily an ATG career,shows you how awesome young Djokovic was but was beaten by Fedal.
ForehandCross
G.O.A.T.
Let's Invert it even more
Slams that could be won by any of the next gen without the big 4 except Thiem since 2015 :
About 5 to 8 , that's because I am being generous counting the no. of actual Slam SFs made will make it even worse.
That's not good competition is it?
Slams that could be won by any of the next gen without the big 4 except Thiem since 2015 :
About 5 to 8 , that's because I am being generous counting the no. of actual Slam SFs made will make it even worse.
That's not good competition is it?
OldschoolKIaus
Hall of Fame
The good Fedr is GOAT, no?
ForehandCross
G.O.A.T.
However laugh people may at Djokovic fans attempts at making him look like GOAT, but the fact is both of Djokodal are a hair away from genuinely eclipsing Federer.
Djokovic with 1-2 slams more has serious case for GOAThood over the other two.
Enjoy it while it last Fed fans.
Djokovic with 1-2 slams more has serious case for GOAThood over the other two.
Enjoy it while it last Fed fans.
Lew II
G.O.A.T.
Federer lost only in finals or semifinals to Djokodal though, and he's a much better player than Ferrer and Cilic.
He would be the favourite in most of the slams he lost to Djokodal, unlike Cilic and Ferrer
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Lew II
G.O.A.T.
Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
If you need to take away multiple players to make someone look good, you're doing it wrong.
ForehandCross
G.O.A.T.
Well, 2007-2010 is 4 years (2007 being the year he first got a slam SF)
2011 till now is 9 years.
10/4= 2.5
22/9= 2.4 something. About same.
Lew II
G.O.A.T.
Being competitive over twice as many years is a testment of more quality.
PerilousPear
Professional
Djokovic could have won everything if not for every other player on the tour.
alexio
G.O.A.T.
it's up there by default
Lew II
G.O.A.T.
No player since 2003 is comparable to Big3, so I'm doing it right.
If Federer beat Sampras to get his slams, your post would be correct.
tennis_pro
Bionic Poster
Time span:
Till 2007 = 4/5 years
Since 2008 = 12 years+
yes Fed could've won more in 12+ years than in 4/5, legit thread this
Till 2007 = 4/5 years
Since 2008 = 12 years+
yes Fed could've won more in 12+ years than in 4/5, legit thread this
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Or another possibility... Federer could have won the majority of his slams since 2008 if not for the slowdown of court surfaces in the past 2 decades.
Lew II
G.O.A.T.
Isn't staying competitive for so long a testment to his quality?
Nadal for example is praised for having mantained a high peak at Roland Garros for 14 years.
Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
This is why it's best to actually know how much of a fight players put up in the matches themselves instead of looking everywhere else but the match.No player since 2003 is comparable to Big3, so I'm doing it right.
If Federer beat Sampras to get his slams, your post would be correct.
Lew II
G.O.A.T.
I look at the match but it doesn't give me the full picture
Breakpointerer
Legend
Fed could have won more in a 12 year span than he did in a 4 year span. Colour me shocked.
He has been a good opponent for sure though.
He has been a good opponent for sure though.
RelentlessAttack
Hall of Fame
Nole had 7 slams through 2014. Considering he was peak since RG06 where he was “in control of the match” against peak Claydal, that’s a respectable career. The rest is just inflation era resume padding
Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
So, for example, what someone does over their whole career is enough evidence that they played well in that particular match?I look at the match but it doesn't give me the full picture
This rule works as a good generalization, but there are far too many exceptions since even the best players have lots and lots of off days. It's always better to determine if that exception is valid before moving on. Would you consider, for example, 2018 Cincinnati Fed to be a good opponent? A better opponent than Cilic and Raonic the previous rounds?
Lew II
G.O.A.T.
Let's say we have a tier1 ATG, ranked #1, and he reached the final without losing a set...
Well that's enough data to say that he's playing pretty good.
Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
Hewitt reached the 2004 US Open final without dropping a set while also being a former #1 player. Does this mean he played well since he checks 2 of the 3 boxes? If he almost, almost meets your criteria, then I think it's reasonable to conclude that he was at least a good opponent for Fed in that match.
Lew II
G.O.A.T.
Yeah not the worst opponent he had.
NatF
Bionic Poster
The way you framed your OP it's obvious you're once against trying to argue Fed's peak was after 2007. It's a sign of longevity but if you're trying to use it to compare quality of play in those two periods it's a gaping hole in your argument.
NatF
Bionic Poster
lol and if we have an ATG making a final dropping sets all over the place and saving MP's to journeyman you still call them a "tough opponent", tougher than a player that's been romping through the draw...makes sense
Lew II
G.O.A.T.
This is updated to Wimbledon 2019:lol and if we have an ATG making a final dropping sets all over the place and saving MP's to journeyman you still call them a "tough opponent", tougher than a player that's been romping through the draw...makes sense
Slam finalists beaten by Djokovic had dropped on average 2.25 sets during the tournament.
Slam finalists beaten by Nadal had dropped on average 2.56 sets during the tournament.
Slam finalists beaten by Federer had dropped on average 4.2 sets during the tournament.
Slam finalists met by Djokovic had dropped on average 2.08 sets during the tournament.
Slam finalists met by Nadal had dropped on average 2.58 sets during the tournament.
Slam finalists met by Federer had dropped on average 3.32 sets during the tournament.
Lew II
G.O.A.T.
Nadal is said to have had peak performances at Roland Garros in 2008, 2012 and 2017... so across a 9 years timespan. Have you ever questioned that?
Federer wasn't lucky enough to have Dimitrov and Raonic as next generation rivals.
JaoSousa
Hall of Fame
There is no point anymore. Let them live on in their fantasy.
JaoSousa
Hall of Fame
Heck, even my grandma could have won CYGS if nobody else was on tour except Ryan Harrison, and she got a robotic arm to serve, and some robotic legs to run, and maybe some robotic eyes to hit overheads with.
At that point, maybe she would just been Djokovic.
NatF
Bionic Poster
I'm not talking about averages or geometric means, I'm asking you about a specific run.
Was Fed tough at the AO in 2020 yes or no?
Avergae sets lost throughout the tournament is dependent on opponents, intensity etc...Djokovic dropped two sets to Simon in 2016, not a great quality match with tons of errors - yet he was ridiculously good in the SF and F (for the most part). Stats like sets lost is supplementary to the play in the actual match. In some cases it matters e.g. Murray FO 2016 running out of steam, likewise Baghdatis at the AO in 2006, Safin AO 2004. In other cases dropping sets early on doesn't really matter and play was raised at the business end - Nadal at Wimbledon in 2010.
Have I made any comments about Fed not being good post 2007? Generally, he wasn't as good, but that doesn't go for every tournament or every match and it doesn't mean he still wasn't very good for a lot of the time.
And there was nothing supposed about his peak, it's statistically obvious - funny how you follow "objective stats" for everything else though.
RelentlessAttack
Hall of Fame
So what you’re saying is that the field was weaker by the time Djokovic started winning, since they couldn’t even take sets off of his already declined opposition. Great research
DjokoGOAT
Semi-Pro
2004-2007 - 11/16 slams won vs bagdhatis, Roddick, Gonzalez, Hewitt, kiefer etc
2008-2015 - 5/32 slams won when facing strong competition.
Cant use age excuse either. Djokovic since age 28 has won Nole slam beating Federer and Murray, and has won 5/7 last slams beating Nadal, Federer and Thiem.
2008-2015 - 5/32 slams won when facing strong competition.
Cant use age excuse either. Djokovic since age 28 has won Nole slam beating Federer and Murray, and has won 5/7 last slams beating Nadal, Federer and Thiem.
TearTheRoofOff
G.O.A.T.
Great. Another parrot. Could start up a menagerie in here.
King No1e
G.O.A.T.
If no one else competed at RG 2013, Artem Bahmet would've won.
See, bhmt GOAT
DjokoGOAT
Semi-Pro
Ace numbers at Wimbledon have actually gone up. What is your evidence for courts being slowed down?
King No1e
G.O.A.T.
Because muh Fedr stopped winning
MeatTornado
Talk Tennis Guru
Yes, if you remove younger all-time great opponents from the field then the old guard can continue winning longer then they should. AKA the exact reality that Djokodal have been living in with no one close to a hall of fame talent behind them...
In this fake reality for Federer the real cutoff is 2009. Even if he'd been able to keep lapping up slams in the 2010s, we'd still just be talking about his peak years being 2004-2009 at most. In 2010 we see the cracks forming with losses to Soderling and Berdych at slams. 2011 was a great year but lost to Tsonga at his best event. 2012 I'm not convinced he wins Australia or RG and we know he did lose to Berdych in NY. 2013 is still an injury plagued mess. 2014 he probably wins Wimbledon and maybe Australia. 2015 Wimbledon and USO definitely but early AO/RG exits. 2016 injuries again. Even in 2017, his most 'revolutionary' season of the decade, he could only win 2. 2018-19 would still be just 1 slam years.
These are all 1 or maybe 2 slam years a piece. Not exactly the dominant 3 or 4 win years he would be having in 04-09. I imagine we'd talk about his prime lasting longer than we currently do, but discussion of his peak would not change much even without Djokovic/Nadal.
In this fake reality for Federer the real cutoff is 2009. Even if he'd been able to keep lapping up slams in the 2010s, we'd still just be talking about his peak years being 2004-2009 at most. In 2010 we see the cracks forming with losses to Soderling and Berdych at slams. 2011 was a great year but lost to Tsonga at his best event. 2012 I'm not convinced he wins Australia or RG and we know he did lose to Berdych in NY. 2013 is still an injury plagued mess. 2014 he probably wins Wimbledon and maybe Australia. 2015 Wimbledon and USO definitely but early AO/RG exits. 2016 injuries again. Even in 2017, his most 'revolutionary' season of the decade, he could only win 2. 2018-19 would still be just 1 slam years.
These are all 1 or maybe 2 slam years a piece. Not exactly the dominant 3 or 4 win years he would be having in 04-09. I imagine we'd talk about his prime lasting longer than we currently do, but discussion of his peak would not change much even without Djokovic/Nadal.
Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
Bahmet wins Bahmet Open 2013
DjokoGOAT
Semi-Pro
King No1e
G.O.A.T.
US Open please upload Nadal Bahmet final on YT thx
King No1e
G.O.A.T.
None of them are younger ATG's. There are no all-time greats younger than Djokovic right now, which speaks half to his and Nadal's longevity, but also undeniably to the weakness of his younger competition.
Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
And Ned vs Berrettini semifinal. Meanwhile, tennis_pro gets sent to a psychiatric hospital.
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