Federer vs Nadal WTF 2011: Why does Nadal struggle indoors so much ?

[ForehandCross]

Thanks to @Lew II, I was reminded of the match. Apparently it's the worst beat down in terms of %age points won in big 3 matches, but I really want to ask why? Nadal has Faced Federer in full flight before and made it respectable and sometimes even win. Why does indoor condition clip his wings so much?

This felt like it was a regular Nadal beat down on clay.

But why does Nadal struggle so much indoors? Against everybody? The guy is a legendary player and does well enough on HC but somehow Indoor HCs just kill him.



Also shotout to @beltsman who said Federer FH never hit through Nadal. Here he really did.

 

[Hitman]

Dead court

 

[MichaelNadal]

Bc it's drab, slow, low bouncing, dull, bamboozled, hoodwinked, cheated, robbed

 

[Nadal_Django]

Thank god this match is from 2011, and not from let's say any year from 2004 until 2007, otherwise we wouldn't never hear the end of it about the greatest indoors level in a single match ever.

 

[Deleted member 768841]

Well maybe it’s just what he’s used to. Outdoor courts are probably more humid, as well as more air flow and different conditions.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Nadal's level dropped quite clearly after WB in 2011.

Look at that first breakpoint, a disgustingly long rally as Nadal mind-numbingly topspins everything like the hammer of evil, but Fedr runs his schiet down as the appallingly slow court allows (while slicebotting when appropriate, allowed by the lower bounce) and ultimately disgusts Nadal into an error. A reverse Fedal if you will.

 

[DSH]

In that particular match, Nadal looked so slow and fatigued.
Awful match by him!

 

[Im(moral) Winner]

Fedal should at the YEC more often epic af with wings

 

[ForehandCross]

Thank god this match is from 2011, and not from let's say any year from 2004 until 2007, otherwise we wouldn't never hear the end of it about the greatest indoors level in a single match ever.

You are in luck , because I do know which ones I might give those title to(Hint they belong in 2003-07)

If you ever get free time from trolling do watch

Federer -Agassi 2003 YEC F
Federer - Blake 2006 YEC F.

Now I know your reply will contain words like crippled -Agassi , Weak era Blake so treat them like a top 50 player equivalent to 2010s.


Try finding a single performance against a top 50 player on indoors hc which was so completely dominant.Apart from few of Djoker's you will be hard pressed to find such impressive performances.

 

[NatF]

You are in luck , because I do know which ones I might give those title to(Hint they belong in 2003-07)

If you ever get free time from trolling do watch

Federer -Agassi 2003 YEC F
Federer - Blake 2006 YEC F.

Now I know your reply will contain words like crippled -Agassi , Weak era Blake so treat them like a top 50 player equivalent to 2010s.


Try finding a single performance against a top 50 player on indoors hc which was so completely dominant.Apart from few of Djoker's you will be hard pressed to find such impressive performances.

The 2007 SF against Nadal was very good

 

[ibbi]

The bounce is low. If you really want to ask why in this particular match he was going through a general post-US Open beating slump in which he had gotten another of the beatings of his life from Sir Andy in Tokyo and got booted out of Shanghai by Flo Mayer. It's not like this was one of Federer's finest weeks at the office outside of this whooping.

 

[MichaelNadal]

Fedal should at the YEC more often epic af with wings

Most things are

 

[JackGates]

Thanks to @Lew II, I was reminded of the match. Apparently it's the worst beat down in terms of %age points won in big 3 matches, but I really want to ask why? Nadal has Faced Federer in full flight before and made it respectable and sometimes even win. Why does indoor condition clip his wings so much?

This felt like it was a regular Nadal beat down on clay.

But why does Nadal struggle so much indoors? Against everybody? The guy is a legendary player and does well enough on HC but somehow Indoor HCs just kill him.



Also shotout to @beltsman who said Federer FH never hit through Nadal. Here he really did.

Because there are no easy draws at WTF. But Rafa usually avoids talented shotmakers. And indoor he only mostly loses to Fed and Nole. But in 15 years, there will be a few tournaments where Rafa will avoid tough players back to back, so he will only need to beat one tough guy in the finals usually. Check rafa's HC draws when he wins HC tournaments, usually till final he has really weak draws. But Rafa's grit and determination and speed and defense can defeat one guy on HC, just one guy.

So, basically he doesn't get easy draws indoor, that's it.

 

[ForehandCross]

The bounce is low. If you really want to ask why in this particular match he was going through a general post-US Open beating slump in which he had gotten another of the beatings of his life from Sir Andy in Tokyo and got booted out of Shanghai by Flo Mayer. It's not like this was one of Federer's finest weeks at the office outside of this whooping.

I had forgotten that Andy beat down. God that was some good stuff from Andy. Probably his best match against Nadal.

Poor Rafa he was beaten like a drum in 2011 season end .

 

[Nadal_Django]

You are in luck , because I do know which ones I might give those title to(Hint they belong in 2003-07)

If you ever get free time from trolling do watch

Federer -Agassi 2003 YEC F
Federer - Blake 2006 YEC F.

Now I know your reply will contain words like crippled -Agassi , Weak era Blake so treat them like a top 50 player equivalent to 2010s.


Try finding a single performance against a top 50 player on indoors hc which was so completely dominant.Apart from few of Djoker's you will be hard pressed to find such impressive performances.

Federer- Agassi was an outdoor match.
Federer- Blake match yes, check all the boxes for the greatest indoors level in a single match ever.

 

[MichaelNadal]

Because there are no easy draws at WTF. But Rafa usually avoids talented shotmakers. And indoor he only mostly loses to Fed and Nole. But in 15 years, there will be a few tournaments where Rafa will avoid tough players back to back, so he will only need to beat one tough guy in the finals usually. Check rafa's HC draws when he wins HC tournaments, usually till final he has really weak draws. But Rafa's grit and determination and speed and defense can defeat one guy on HC, just one guy.

So, basically he doesn't get easy draws indoor, that's it.

Is that why he's been in multiple finals? Please. The surface just isn't good for his game.

 

[Dedans Penthouse]

Apparently it's the worst beat down in terms of %age points won in big 3 matches,

Also shotout to @beltsman who said Federer FH never hit through Nadal. Here he really did.

Thank god this match is from 2011, and not from let's say any year from 2004 until 2007, otherwise we wouldn't never hear the end of it about the greatest indoors level in a single match ever.

Try finding a single performance against a top 50 player on indoors hc which was so completely dominant.

If you ever get free time from trolling.......

 

[ForehandCross]

Federer- Agassi was an outdoor match.
Federer- Blake match yes, check all the boxes for the greatest indoors level in a single match ever.

Well sorry about that. You are right, it had escaped my mind that Houston was outdoors.

Federer-Blake was great , but few of Djokovic's might be as good. Shanghai YEC were low bouncing and fast that helped Federer. While O2 has been slow and low bouncing.

Also Sampras( I have read only) might have a lot to say about this. He was a beast indoors especially on carpet.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Well sorry about that. You are right, it had escaped my mind that Houston was outdoors.

Federer-Blake was great , but few of Djokovic's might be as good. Shanghai YEC were low bouncing and fast that helped Federer. While O2 has been slow and low bouncing.

Also Sampras( I have read only) might have a lot to say about this. He was a beast indoors especially on carpet.

Borg, McEnroe, Lendl, Becker, Sampras have all had ATG prowess on indoor hard/carpet. The glorious days when indoor tennis was at its most riveting.

 

[ForehandCross]

@Dedans Penthouse I didn't get you.

 

[JaoSousa]

Nadal hit only 3 winners in this match, not exactly a brilliant performance. However, Federer played extremely good to limit his winners to only 3. His forehand was on fire and he was hitting his backhand well. Most of Federer's best matches, now that I think about it, are from the ATP Finals: 2003 Nalbandian and Agassi, 2006 Blake, 2010 Djokovic, 2011 Nadal, 2014 Murray, 2019 Djokovic. Federer really thrives on the fast courts, and Nadal does not.

This match actually reminds me of 2008 RG Final. One player was playing really well and the other not at all. Favorite Surface(or in this case 2nd) and least favorite surface. But RG was a much bigger match.

 

[JackGates]

Is that why he's been in multiple finals? Please. The surface just isn't good for his game.

You are contradicting yourself here, how was then in so many finals, if the surface isn't good for his game? Didn't 17 year old Rafa beat peak Fed at Dubai? So, it's not the surface, it's the draws that are the problem, Rafa can't handle several good players back to back on HC consistently and nothing to do with the surface. That's why he has like five times less HC tournament wins than Djokovic and Nadal.

Nice excuse, so if Fed loses to Rafa on clay, I can just say, hey doesn't count because clay doesn't suit Fed's game, let's forget about it. No, Fed has tough draws, he has to face clay goat most of the time there, it's not that Fed is weak on any surface. Rafa never beat big five back to back on HC, he only did that on clay, so yeah draws matter. When Rafa has ato face Nole-Murray or Fed-Murray or Fed-Nole back to back on HC he falters.

ALSO WTF IS SLOW INDOOR, IT'S NOT FAST INDOOR

 

[Mainad]

It's notable that he won his sole indoor hardcourt title back in 2005 at his home tournament, the Madrid Masters (then played on hardcourt), at a time when ALL big finals (Slams, YEC, Masters, Davis Cup, Olympics) were played in Bo5 format and, at that particular event, Nadal won a hard fought 5 setter against Ljubicic in the final after dropping the first 2 sets. Had it been Bo3 back then he wouldn't now have ANY indoor hardcourt titles at all!

Maybe Bo5 would have suited him better when playing in indoor conditions and his indoor record would look more respectable than it currently does. He may even have landed a WTF title and avoided that embarrassing '0' against his name when the ATP shows the latest comparison of big titles won by the Big 3?

The move to Bo3 does not seem to have done him any favours when playing indoors.

 

[JackGates]

It's notable that he won his sole indoor hardcourt title back in 2005 at his home tournament, the Madrid Masters (then played on hardcourt), at a time when ALL big finals (Slams, YEC, Masters, Davis Cup, Olympics) were played in Bo5 format and, at that particular event, Nadal won a hard fought 5 setter against Ljubicic in the final after dropping the first 2 sets. Had it been Bo3 back then he wouldn't now have ANY indoor hardcourt titles at all!

Maybe Bo5 would have suited him better when playing in indoor conditions and his indoor record would look more respectable than it currently does. He may even have landed a WTF title and avoided that embarrassing '0' against his name when the ATP shows the latest comparison of big titles won by the Big 3?

The move to Bo3 does not seem to have done him any favours when playing indoors. How about this, what if slams were bo3 like women, so only skills matter and not fitness, then Fed and Murray would be dominating since Murray has good h2h record vs Fed in bo3 haha.

That's a good point, Rafa uses his grit a lot to compensate for his technical flaws.

 

[MichaelNadal]

You are contradicting yourself here, how was then in so many finals, if the surface isn't good for his game? Didn't 17 year old Rafa beat peak Fed at Dubai? So, it's not the surface, it's the draws that are the problem, Rafa can't handle several good players back to back on HC consistently and nothing to do with the surface. That's why he has like five times less HC tournament wins than Djokovic and Nadal.

Nice excuse, so if Fed loses to Rafa on clay, I can just say, hey doesn't count because clay doesn't suit Fed's game, let's forget about it. No, Fed has tough draws, he has to face clay goat most of the time there, it's not that Fed is weak on any surface. Rafa never beat big five back to back on HC, he only did that on clay, so yeah draws matter. When Rafa has ato face Nole-Murray or Fed-Murray or Fed-Nole back to back on HC he falters.

ALSO WTF IS SLOW INDOOR, IT'S NOT FAST INDOOR

Bc Nadal is a great tennis player, believe it or not. How many places has he NOT gotten to finals whether the court suits his game or not? It being slow/low bouncing indoor is the exact issue. When it comes down to it Fed is better indoors than he is. Where's the controversy?

 

[JaoSousa]

Bc it's drab, slow, low bouncing, dull, bamboozled, hoodwinked, cheated, robbed

Did you just look up a word and then list all of its synonyms?

 

[MichaelNadal]

Did you just look up a word and then list all of its synonyms?

Lol no. Just was listing reasons and randomly went into a John Cena promo

 

[vive le beau jeu !]

no bounce, no bull.

 

[JaoSousa]

You are contradicting yourself here, how was then in so many finals, if the surface isn't good for his game? Didn't 17 year old Rafa beat peak Fed at Dubai? So, it's not the surface, it's the draws that are the problem, Rafa can't handle several good players back to back on HC consistently and nothing to do with the surface. That's why he has like five times less HC tournament wins than Djokovic and Nadal.

Nice excuse, so if Fed loses to Rafa on clay, I can just say, hey doesn't count because clay doesn't suit Fed's game, let's forget about it. No, Fed has tough draws, he has to face clay goat most of the time there, it's not that Fed is weak on any surface. Rafa never beat big five back to back on HC, he only did that on clay, so yeah draws matter. When Rafa has ato face Nole-Murray or Fed-Murray or Fed-Nole back to back on HC he falters.

ALSO WTF IS SLOW INDOOR, IT'S NOT FAST INDOOR

First off, there are not too many opportunities to do that(face Nole-Murray or Fed-Murray or Fed-Nole back to back on HC). Second, playing the two HC goats back to back might cause some people to falter...
Agree that sometimes Nadal's hardcourt wins may seem "weak", but such an argument just leads to more negative energy. He can only play the people in front of him. And he has beaten Djoker and Fed enough on HC that he isn't just a one-dimensional player.

 

[JackGates]

Bc Nadal is a great tennis player, believe it or not. How many places has he NOT gotten to finals whether the court suits his game or not? It being slow/low bouncing indoor is the exact issue. When it comes down to it Fed is better indoors than he is. Where's the controversy?

That's also the reason why I fail all college tests. It's not like I'm not smart enough, it's just that those tests don't suit my answering style. Same with IQ tests. My IQ is 167.6, it's just that most IQ tests don't suit my answers, so they don't show my real IQ.

 

[KINGROGER]

Neutral conditions that emphasis tennis ability over running a lot and spamming topspin on high bouncing courts.

 

[Mainad]

That's also the reason why I fail all college tests. It's not like I'm not smart enough, it's just that those tests don't suit my answering style. Same with IQ tests. My IQ is 167.6, it's just that most IQ tests don't suit my answers, so they don't show my real IQ.

I've never been able to pluck up the courage to find out mine. I suspect most of those tests don't suit my way of thinking either. Either that or I just don't want it spelled out to me that I'm a moron!

 

[BeatlesFan]

The YEC in 2011 (and until 2014/15) had a low bouncing surface and it was quicker. The court doesn't take Nadal's topspin, that's the simple answer. Instead of his shots landing shoulder high to Fed's backhand, they landed right in Roger's wheelhouse.

 

[JackGates]

First off, there are not too many opportunities to do that(face Nole-Murray or Fed-Murray or Fed-Nole back to back on HC). Second, playing the two HC goats back to back might cause some people to falter...
Agree that sometimes Nadal's hardcourt wins may seem "weak", but such an argument just leads to more negative energy. He can only play the people in front of him. And he has beaten Djoker and Fed enough on HC that he isn't just a one-dimensional player.

Exactly, it's luck of the draw and poor sample size of having few tournaments indoor that makes it seem Rafa is not good indoor. I disagree, I think he is the same, why the hell would Roof make such a difference? Also WTF is slow indoor court, it's not fast, so not indoor anyway. And we have complete homogenization since 2008, so it's hard to talk Nadal and Nole being more dimensional when all plays the same, you can use the same style to win everywhere, but Fed had to use all court game. But, not their fault, so I guess in the end it doesn't matter, we can't compare eras anyway.

 

[Pheasant]

Nadal doesn't struggle at WTF. He's par for the course and I'll explain:

The WTF is almost solely comprised of players in the top 10.
Nadal's overall record vs top 10 on hard courts: 69-69, .500
Nadal's record at the WTF: 18-14, .563

 

[JackGates]

I've never been able to pluck up the courage to find out mine. I suspect most of those tests don't suit my way of thinking either. Either that or I just don't want it spelled out to me that I'm a moron!

I would worry about being too smart. At least now you can have excuses. What if you find out if your IQ is 150, then you will suddenly feel like a bigger failure wasting all that talent. At least now we can have excuses and less stress. And you can't change it anyway, so why bother to finding out?

 

[JackGates]

I would worry about being too smart. At least now you can have excuses. What if you find out if your IQ is 150, then you will suddenly feel like a bigger failure wasting all that talent. At least now we can have excuses and less stress. And you can't change it anyway, so why bother to finding out? Besides most of us are average, that doesn't mean dumb. And being smart is more about personality and not intellect, you don't need to be smart for most tasks and jobs in life or to be happy in life anyway. Maybe only those with less than 95 IQ have problems.