Feedback on how to stop these tournament double faults

EddieBrock

Hall of Fame
When I get nervous in a tournament for some reason I end up dumping my kick serve (2nd serve) into the bottom of the net. This never happens any time other than when I get nervous and I don't know what I'm doing wrong. I know it's not the best video quality, but it's all I have.

Please provide constructive feedback on my serve under pressure so that I can stop doing this! It is extremely annoying and embarrassing.

If you go to settings on youtube you can slow the playback speed

 
Last edited:

joffa101

New User
Didn’t watch the video.

But the advice I read here that works for me is to squeeze the racquet really hard before you serve - so that when you serve you ‘have’ to relax and grip the racquet loosely.
 

EddieBrock

Hall of Fame
Didn’t watch the video.

But the advice I read here that works for me is to squeeze the racquet really hard before you serve - so that when you serve you ‘have’ to relax and grip the racquet loosely.

Video is only 4 seconds. Sounds like the tip on the grip may help
 

Kevo

Legend
Did you watch it closely yourself. There are several things that I would recommend changing, but the first thing that I always say on serve is the "Toss is the Boss".

Fix that toss. With a toss that high you're asking for trouble IMO. Also you need to make sure you place it in the right spot for the contact. Show me a video with some serves that have excellent tosses and then we'll see if any of the other stuff still needs fixing.
 

EddieBrock

Hall of Fame
Did you watch it closely yourself. There are several things that I would recommend changing, but the first thing that I always say on serve is the "Toss is the Boss".

Fix that toss. With a toss that high you're asking for trouble IMO. Also you need to make sure you place it in the right spot for the contact. Show me a video with some serves that have excellent tosses and then we'll see if any of the other stuff still needs fixing.

Yes, I watched it closely myself. The toss has been my nemesis for years and apparently I'm not tossing the way I thought. In my mind my tossing arm is straight during the motion, but the video shows my elbow goes from straight to bent mid motion.

Something else is that even though I was swinging parallel to the baseline for the kick I opened up my shoulders too soon and was facing the court. What else did you see?
 

golden chicken

Hall of Fame
At contact your forearm to racket angle is too inline and your racket is nearly vertical.

You want this:
racquet-across.jpg
 

Kevo

Legend
What else did you see?

Your serve will follow your toss. Seriously, forget all the other stuff for now and just make sure you understand where and how to toss the ball so you can do it consistently. Your swing has no choice but to follow the toss. That's why the "Toss is the Boss!"

If you get your toss right then most of the other things will follow. Sometimes they don't, but if your toss is where it's supposed to be it will be much easier to fix anything that needs work later. You can't fix it with a bad toss.

The top three most important parts of the serve are toss, toss, and toss. :)
 

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
When I get nervous in a tournament for some reason I end up dumping my kick serve (2nd serve) into the bottom of the net. This never happens any time other than when I get nervous and I don't know what I'm doing wrong. I know it's not the best video quality, but it's all I have.

Please provide constructive feedback on my serve under pressure so that I can stop doing this! It is extremely annoying and embarrassing.

What's going through your mind at the time? If it's "please don't DF! Please don't DF!", that's the kiss of death: find something else to focus on, like swinging freely, driving up into the ball, placement, etc.
 

EddieBrock

Hall of Fame
Your serve will follow your toss. Seriously, forget all the other stuff for now and just make sure you understand where and how to toss the ball so you can do it consistently. Your swing has no choice but to follow the toss. That's why the "Toss is the Boss!"

If you get your toss right then most of the other things will follow. Sometimes they don't, but if your toss is where it's supposed to be it will be much easier to fix anything that needs work later. You can't fix it with a bad toss.

The top three most important parts of the serve are toss, toss, and toss. :)

Something I want to get rid off on the toss is bending my left arm. What should I change on the placement for a kick serve? It really bothers me to see that I opened my body way up and was facing the net when I went to hit the ball. Don't know if I did that chasing the toss
 

r2473

G.O.A.T.
You’re looking for a tip that will fix things. But you have many things that are fundamentally wrong with your serve. It will always break down. Especially under pressure. I think on some level, you know yourself that this is true.

Best advice I can give you is, work on a side spin serve in practice with the goal of getting it in 9 out of 10 times. Aim for the middle of the box. Don’t hit it hard. Make your opponent provide all the pace himself.
 
Last edited:

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
Best thing for my nerves and for a consistent serve toss was a good night of quality sleep prior to playing. Inadequate sleep affected my serve toss more than any other aspect of my serve or my game.

Meditation (15-20 mins) and 10-15 minutes of cardio exercise prior to competition both helped considerably with calming nerves.

Breathing exercises before and during a match can provide sime additional calming. Have you ever noticed that many pro players, before starting the next point, will turn away from the court and adjust their strings? The primary goal of these actions is not actually to fix or align the strings. The real goal of this activity is to calm and focus the mind.
 
Last edited:

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
When I get nervous in a tournament for some reason I end up dumping my kick serve (2nd serve) into the bottom of the net. This never happens any time other than when I get nervous and I don't know what I'm doing wrong.

It's not your technique, since your serve is fine under other circumstances; the problem is mental. And you're trying to solve the problem by addressing the symptom [technique breaking down] vs the cause [being nervous triggers the breakdown].

There's nothing inherently bad about being nervous; you just have to learn how to funnel that energy into something positive. @SystemicAnomaly had some good suggestions. I have a couple more:


 

EddieBrock

Hall of Fame
What's going through your mind at the time? If it's "please don't DF! Please don't DF!", that's the kiss of death: find something else to focus on, like swinging freely, driving up into the ball, placement, etc.

As I went up to hit that serve here's what I was thinking before stepping back up to the line...

"Why did you swing at that bad toss to miss the 1st serve? You could feel it was off during the whole serve and you still tried to massage it in."

When I went to start the motion...

"This is when spending all that time and money on lessons and when watching all those youtube videos will pay off. Use your legs, watch the racket hit the ball and swing left to right"

Immediately after hitting the ball

"What's happening? This is the same damn weird feeling I get every year. Why is the ball in the bottom of the net? Why can't I hit a stupid serve like everyone else here"

The rest of my thoughts aren't suitable to post.
 

EddieBrock

Hall of Fame
You’re looking for a tip that will fix things. But you have many things that are fundamentally wrong with your serve. It will always break down. Especially under pressure. I think on some level, you know yourself that this is true.

Best advice I can give you is, work on a side spin serve in practice with the goal of getting it in 9 out of 10 times. Aim for the middle of the box. Don’t hit it hard. Make your opponent provide all the pace himself.

I can hit a pretty good slice serve that I was using for my 1st serve that fortunately meant I didn't have to hit a lot of 2nd serves. The flip side was that since hitting a 2nd serve was such a rare occurrence it put a lot of pressure on me.

What are the many things you see that are fundamentally wrong?
 

EddieBrock

Hall of Fame
Best thing for my nerves and for a consistent serve toss was a good night of quality sleep prior to playing. Inadequate sleep affected my serve toss more than any other aspect of my serve or my game.

Meditation (15-20 mins) and 10-15 minutes of cardio exercise prior to competition both helped inmensely with calming my nerves.

Breathing exercises before and during a match can provide sime additional calming. Have you ever noticed that many pro players, before starting the next point, will turn away from the court and adjust their strings? The primary goal of these actions is not actually to fix or align the strings. The real goal of this activity is to calm and focus the mind.

You know what's weird? I actually got a really good night sleep. What I didn't get was a good warmup. What I like to do is hit a 1st and 2nd serve several times on each side. Instead I was only working with 1 ball and I only got to hit like 3 serves on a single side.
 

EddieBrock

Hall of Fame
It's not your technique, since your serve is fine under other circumstances; the problem is mental. And you're trying to solve the problem by addressing the symptom [technique breaking down] vs the cause [being nervous triggers the breakdown].

There's nothing inherently bad about being nervous; you just have to learn how to funnel that energy into something positive. @SystemicAnomaly had some good suggestions. I have a couple more:



I will take a look at the video. Mentally I want to play in these tournaments the same way I play in practice and want to rid myself of double faults like the one I posted. It wasn't just my serve though. My return was way off and I missed a ton of volleys and my backhand went back to my old technique as well. Looking at the videos of myself it was like all the work I've done the past few years was for nothing.
 

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
As I went up to hit that serve here's what I was thinking before stepping back up to the line...

Assuming some of this isn't tongue-in-cheek:

"Why did you swing at that bad toss to miss the 1st serve? You could feel it was off during the whole serve and you still tried to massage it in."

Don't beat yourself up over past mistakes. Instead, focus on something positive [ie "relax on your toss" vs "stop chasing bad tosses"]

When I went to start the motion...

"This is when spending all that time and money on lessons and when watching all those youtube videos will pay off. Use your legs, watch the racket hit the ball and swing left to right"

Forget about what it took to get to this juncture; none of that will help you.

I'd also focus on just one thing rather than 3 [or more].

Immediately after hitting the ball

"What's happening? This is the same damn weird feeling I get every year. Why is the ball in the bottom of the net? Why can't I hit a stupid serve like everyone else here"

The rest of my thoughts aren't suitable to post.

You need to find something simple, positive, and overwhelming to focus on so that it crowds out all of the other chatter in your head. Maybe practice by playing TBs and resolving to think as little as possible: don't try to quash thoughts because they will happen. Just don't fixate on them; let them pass.

Meditation would definitely help in this arena.
 

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
I will take a look at the video. Mentally I want to play in these tournaments the same way I play in practice and want to rid myself of double faults like the one I posted. It wasn't just my serve though. My return was way off and I missed a ton of volleys and my backhand went back to my old technique as well. Looking at the videos of myself it was like all the work I've done the past few years was for nothing.

There's one video interview with Bob Litwin but there are also a series of shorts by Cohn.

One line from the Litwin interview that should resonate:

"The message I picked up from 35 years of teaching is 'I'm not playing as well as I can play.' [match vs practice]. I always thought people wanted to be great: I want to be like Djokovic, etc. But they were really saying 'I want to play as well as I can play'."
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
You know what's weird? I actually got a really good night sleep. What I didn't get was a good warmup. What I like to do is hit a 1st and 2nd serve several times on each side. Instead I was only working with 1 ball and I only got to hit like 3 serves on a single side.

Good warmup is so important. Without it, I would feel anxious (nervous) or sluggish or both. It would sometimes take me a set and a half to warmup and feel relaxed but energized. By that time it could be too late to salvage a natch (if you had lost the first set and was behind in a second). I often need to break a sweat or get my 2nd wind (reach my aerobic target zone) before I really started playing well.

I usually did not exercise much or practice very much the day or night before a match -- cuz there is a danger of a sprain or injury that might have enuff time to heal before your match. But I would try to get a good, extended warmup at the courts earlier on match day. Many pros usually to this prior to a match.

If that is not possible, then the 10-15 minutes of cardio (right before the match warmup) that I mentioned previously is even more important. Rope skipping, sprints and extended jogging or cycling could be part of this pre-warmup cardio warmup.

I would often take an extra can of new balls (or fairly new balls) to the courts with me for the official pre-match warm-up with my opponent. I would ask them if it was okay if we use those balls in addition to the match balls we were given. That way we would not need to waste as much time picking up the 2 or 3 balls we were given for the match.
 

Kevo

Legend
Something I want to get rid off on the toss is bending my left arm. What should I change on the placement for a kick serve? It really bothers me to see that I opened my body way up and was facing the net when I went to hit the ball. Don't know if I did that chasing the toss

Lot's of people toss with a bent arm. I do that myself sometimes. Kick serve placement needs to be more over your back shoulder almost. Sometimes slightly behind you as well.

People always chase the toss. Well, almost always. How many times do you see someone not swing at their toss. It's very rare. You see people hit bad tosses all the time. That's very common.
 

Kevo

Legend
As I went up to hit that serve here's what I was thinking before stepping back up to the line...

"Why did you swing at that bad toss to miss the 1st serve? You could feel it was off during the whole serve and you still tried to massage it in."

When I went to start the motion...

"This is when spending all that time and money on lessons and when watching all those youtube videos will pay off. Use your legs, watch the racket hit the ball and swing left to right"

Immediately after hitting the ball

"What's happening? This is the same damn weird feeling I get every year. Why is the ball in the bottom of the net? Why can't I hit a stupid serve like everyone else here"

The rest of my thoughts aren't suitable to post.

That's a very common sort of internal dialogue. You should practice your spin serves until it's just not possible for you to miss. I always recommend people play at least a few matches with nothing but 2nd serves. Every serve should be a spin serve. Your goal should be a match with no double faults. Once you gain enough confidence with the 2nd serve then you won't have that sort of dialog any more. You'll be able to walk up to the line and visualize hitting a kicker to the backhand or into the body and then just hit it. At first they won't be great necessarily, because the focus will be on eliminating faults. However, over time you will be able to hit your spots at will. Once you have the no double fault match you can go into the next match with the first serve being a forcing 2nd. If you fault it's not a big deal as you can hit a safe 2nd. A couple matches of that and you can start to turn your 2nd serve into an offensive weapon. Then you can work in some offense on 2nd serves when you are ahead in the count.

If you aren't sure about where the toss should go and how well you are doing with consistency then spend a whole lesson on just that. I work with people on their serves a lot and it can take some time to figure out the basics in the beginning. That time you spend making sure you understand the basics is well worth it. Without that your serve is built on sand and can fall apart at any time. Not to mention the level you can attain on your serve is limited without sound fundamentals. The fundamentals aren't flashy, but the time and effort you put into fundamentals is never wasted.
 

sovertennis

Professional
Just from that snippet of vid, I would echo the comments about your errant toss; as well, I would say, emphatically, "Eddie, loosen your arm. Looks really tight".
 

golden chicken

Hall of Fame
What do you mean by the forearm to racket angle? How do I fix the contact point so I'm not hitting it when it's vertical? Just let it drop more?

So like your forearm is up at 12:00 at contact and your racket is only tilted to maybe 1:00, where you want it to be more like 2:00, like in the center picture I posted above.

You're going to have to experiment a little bit with toss location and swingpath to accommodate the new angle, but you'll then be able to actually hit kick with some pace rather than swiping up the back of the ball from like 7:00 to 1:00.

Then try to remember that the kick serve, like most spin strokes requires racket head speed, so don't allow yourself to slow down when you go to hit it even if you're nervous. Remind yourself that you'd rather miss by swinging out and giving yourself the best chance of putting it in than by swinging tentatively and likely missing.
 

fuzz nation

G.O.A.T.
I will take a look at the video. Mentally I want to play in these tournaments the same way I play in practice and want to rid myself of double faults like the one I posted. It wasn't just my serve though. My return was way off and I missed a ton of volleys and my backhand went back to my old technique as well. Looking at the videos of myself it was like all the work I've done the past few years was for nothing.

First thought - I appreciate your honesty here. This is a miserable feeling you're describing and I've definitely been there myself. Probably several of our pals here can feel your pain. I've had some really good coffee this morning, so here goes...

I routinely recommend Vic Braden's book, "Mental Tennis", to our pals here. Everybody has their favorite - maybe "Winning Ugly" or "The Inner Game of Tennis". But this one by Braden helped me with making profound improvements both as a player and as a coach. You can get it in paperback for only a few bucks.

As far as wanting to play in these tournaments the same way as you play in practice, the good news and the bad news are sort of the same news. You need to practice with the same intensity and focus as you need for playing well on match day - not many of us can do that. When I'm coaching my teams, I'm routinely chirping at the kids to embrace this thinking when they're sort of coasting in the middle of a practice. If we're having an easy knockaround and hitting every third ball on two bounces during practice, all we can recall on match day is mediocre, right?

Take a little comfort in the fact that it might be impossible to completely achieve match day focus when practicing. On the practice court, we can turn our mind's eye on ourselves to some degree, but during a match, most of our focus is shifted toward what's happening on the other side of the net. Anything we recall has to be ingrained enough that we can pretty much do it without thinking about it.

If you are sometimes falling back into your old technique - you mentioned your backhand - that's because you haven't gone all in on your new technique yet. Sometimes that can require twice as much work as we might think to truly make those alterations and develop our games. Maybe that's why some wise coaches like to encourage us to "enjoy the process". We never know how long it takes until after we make the changes.

I could probably only help with the technical aspects of your serving if we were on the court together with a bucket of balls, but I'm not just thinking about the nuts and bolts of your move on the ball. I want to know about the "when I get nervous in a tournament" situations. Are these coming whenever you have to hit a second serve, when it seems like you've arrived at a make-or-break moment (set point, break point, etc.), or something else?

If your slice serve is more reliable than your kick serve, use your slice serve, especially when you need to land a second serve. If your kick serve is less reliable, use it for an occasional first serve, but not so often that you're wasting too many first serves. Get more first serves in. They're not throw-away chances at free points - trying to whack aces that only miss over and over again. They're opportunities to avoid having to land second serves.

Do me a favor; re-read post #15 and ask yourself whether all those thoughts are going through your head when you're practicing and not when you're playing a match. I'll bet you a nickel that they're not happening in practice. That's a big tip off that your expectations of yourself on match day are wildly different than they are during practice. If you can't live up to those higher expectations when playing those tournaments, you'll be doomed to constant frustration and playing too tight too often. You need to confront them. This is straight from the wisdom of Braden. Get the book, it might just change your life (y)
 
D

Deleted member 765152

Guest
Assuming OP doesn't DF much when not playing tournaments:

1) Go for very high % 1st serves, thereby drastically reducing the number of times you need to hit 2nd serves. That puts a lot of pressure on your returning opponents.
2) If you have to hit a 2nd serve, hit high and long topspin serves crosscourt, using the longest court distance available. Use a smooth, relaxed stroke.
Even if you hit short, the ball should land short in the box. If you hit long, it will still go in deep into the corner.

Practice this serve by hitting only one serve during practice. If you miss one serve, you lose the point. You will learn quickly to live on 1-serve-only mode.
 

ReopeningWed

Professional
When I practice serves I warm up by making myself hit 10/10 serves in a row. These can be patty cake, snowballs, cupcakes, however soft you want to hit it, you just have to keep hitting serves until you get 10/10. If you miss one, you go back to zero.

When I feel warmed up, I'll practice the kick serve and make myself hit 9/10 at game speed. I do each exercise for both sides.

Disclaimer: I pretty much only hit kick serves and I pretty much only hit kick serves to the backhand to start points so my kick serve is both my first and second serve.
 

Nellie

Hall of Fame
That serve in the video is bouncing is front of the net. I would suggest a couple of things - (1) contact is too far forward and high - pause in the back scratch position to let the ball drop a little so you are hitting up and through the ball; and (2) try practicing serves under stress. I do this by playing games with only serve (double fault if you miss the first serve).

Also, try not to hit into the net. I know that sounds stupid, but aim long.
 

EddieBrock

Hall of Fame
That serve in the video is bouncing is front of the net. I would suggest a couple of things - (1) contact is too far forward and high - pause in the back scratch position to let the ball drop a little so you are hitting up and through the ball; and (2) try practicing serves under stress. I do this by playing games with only serve (double fault if you miss the first serve).

Also, try not to hit into the net. I know that sounds stupid, but aim long.

Thanks! I included the net in the video so you can see that even though I'm trying to hit a kick serve that's supposed to have good net clearance the ball doesn't even make it to the net. The only time this happens to my serve in when I'm extremely nervous in a tournament. It's good to know my contact is too far forward and high. Someone else pointed out my racket is nearly vertical. I think I get so jumpy and anxious to get the ball in the box I rush and don't let the toss come down enough to hit it.

As a follow up. After studying that video and the comments here I went out and practiced my serve for like 30 minutes and by the end I was hitting incredible serves. Wish I had filmed it. Then I played a match that went 3 sets and only had a couple double faults and those were barely long. Even though I didn't serve as well as in practice it was pretty good and I felt enough confidence to go after my 1st serve when I was up in the game. Something else that really helped was just breathing deliberately and shaking my arms then bouncing the ball until I felt loose enough to serve. Also telling myself it's better to swing out and miss long than to baby the serve. Mental is definitely a major component.
 

sovertennis

Professional
Which arm? Hitting, tossing, or both?

You look stiff generally, but your hitting arm appears to have an early case of rigor mortis.

Kidding! Try to flow upward, then forward to contact, then reach forward as far as you can. Good luck. Improving a service motion takes time and patience, not to mention a lot of initial failure.
 
Top