Fixing the waiter's tray serve

[Chas Tennis]

Seems to me that you have changed your view on what constitutes a WTE.

Note that I am not choosing to define WTE to include Tom T's technique. It is WTE by its very nature. Coaches have been talking about WT for decades. I believe that you are misinterpreting what Hi-TechTennis has to say about WTE. Or reading something into it that is not there. They do talk quite a bit about WTE wrt the Big L but I am not see anything on their site that indicates that a WTE serve MUST include a Big L phase. Have I missed something there?



The Tom T serve that you presented IS a sub-optimal or lower performance serve technique. WTE serves are manifested in a lot of ways -- with or w/o the Big L phase. This phase is not most important criteria for what constitutes WTE. Its primary characteristic is that racket face is open very early -- for most of the upward swing. Little or no pronation on the upward swing is employed because of this. This is what coaches have been referring to for years/decades.

Are you attempting to make a distinction between a high-level WTE and low-level WTE???

Quote from HiTech Tennis on their use of the Big L Position.
"Instead of the "waiter's tray" position, Andre needs to get in the "Big L" where the butt cap of the racket points to the net and the strings face the side fence (not up to the sky)......"
http://www.hi-techtennis.com/serve/big_l_student.php

This seems to include the "strings face the side fence" as part of the definition of the Big L Position for the high level serve only. These words are basically undefined and have a tennis usage, such as it is. I had assumed that the 'Big L' referred only to the appearance of the near straight arm and racket as an upside down Big L. Arguing over usage and meanings of undefined tennis terms is not a very interesting forum subject.

Does the term Big L include the 'edge on' or "strings face the side fence" but the term Big L does not include the strings face the sky?

 

[Chas Tennis]

This very instructive video was posted by GuyClinch. It shows a variety of techniques of 11 rec players. They are not all different techniques in my opinion.

Earlier, I believe that I picked out 4 or 5 techniques that resembled techniques that I had noticed in poster's serve videos.

I believe that WT with little ISR, racket faces sky with ISR, bent or straight arm late in motion, and high level technique are included in my opinion. I'll redo.

Give analysis a try based on 'racket faces the sky', what appears to be ISR, little or no ISR, high level features........ etc.

To do single frame on Youtube, go full screen, stop video and use the "." and "," keys.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Quote from HiTech Tennis on their use of the Big L Position.
"Instead of the "waiter's tray" position, Andre needs to get in the "Big L" where the butt cap of the racket points to the net and the strings face the side fence (not up to the sky)......"
http://www.hi-techtennis.com/serve/big_l_student.php

This seems to include the "strings face the side fence" as part of the definition of the Big L Position for the high level serve only. These words are basically undefined and have a tennis usage, such as it is. I had assumed that the 'Big L' referred only to the appearance of the near straight arm and racket as an upside down Big L. Arguing over usage and meanings of undefined tennis terms is not a very interesting forum subject.

Does the term Big L include the 'edge on' or "strings face the side fence" but the term Big L does not include the strings face the sky?

Yes, I saw that already. But that still does not stipulate that a WTE serve MUST include a Big L position (arm extended). Not seen any other source that stipulates a full arm extension either. Don't believe that you are going to get any clarification/answers from HTT. Doesn't appear to be much activity on that site in the past 2 years -- nothing posted since 9/2015.

Doesn't make sense to trying to redefine WTE only for serves that include the Big L position. That is not how the terminology has been used since I 1st heard it 20+ yrs ago.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Yes, I saw that already. But that still does not stipulate that a WTE serve MUST include a Big L position (arm extended). Not seen any other source that stipulates a full arm extension either. Don't believe that you are going to get any clarification/answers from HTT. Doesn't appear to be much activity on that site in the past 2 years -- nothing posted since 9/2015.

Doesn't make sense to trying to redefine WTE only for serves that include the Big L position. That is not how the terminology has been used since I 1st heard it 20+ yrs ago.

The main thing is the biomechanics. The TomT and Bigservesofthands techniques use ISR in a different way than the high level serve. In my opinion and interpretation, the Waiter's Tray Error in the HiTech Picture does not use much ISR for racket head speed. 'Racket facing the sky' are a few words and they don't describe the biomechanics of two very different techniques seen in high speed videos.

It seems as if each technique might have a different approach for teaching change to a high level serve. ?

 

[Deleted member 754093]

I'm in the process of trying to fix my waiter's tray. I had filmed myself some weeks ago and noticed my wrist started to drop back a lot (no longer aligned with my forearm) and opened up my racketface. So at the moment I grip my racket quite hard to stop that from happening. I know you're supposed to be loose but for now I need it as a temporary measure to fix a bad habit.

Last match I had 4 or 5 aces in two sets, which is a lot for me (normally I average between 0 and 1). Two of them were down the T, where I always never hit aces. Average speed was quite a bit higher too, although my serves are a bit too flattish for my liking.

I'm not sure if I really fixed the waiter's tray, but because of the results I think I must be doing something better. Not sure if this helps the OP, maybe he has a different cause for his WT.

Who cares. Results are what matter. If it's working for you, do it.

I think there is a distinction between having the racquet face up slightly before contact and doing a waiter's tray serve where a beginner throws the ball up and pops it over the net. Ffs, it looks like in some of those Matt Lin videos that he points towards the sky before contact rather than staying on edge. Is his serve not high level? Ridiculous. There's a spectrum -- the categories aren't black and white.

Anyway, all this analysis and pointing out errors, is, in my opinion, useless. Yes, they do video analysis at academies, but the coaches also tell you how to fix the errors. I for one would like to see Chas Tennis's serve to know who I am dealing with. What do you say there, Chas? Is your serve high level?

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Who cares. Results are what matter. If it's working for you, do it.

I think there is a distinction between having the racquet face up slightly before contact and doing a waiter's tray serve where a beginner throws the ball up and pops it over the net. Ffs, it looks like in some of those Matt Lin videos that he points towards the sky before contact rather than staying on edge. Is his serve not high level? Ridiculous. There's a spectrum -- the categories aren't black and white.

Anyway, all this analysis and pointing out errors, is, in my opinion, useless. Yes, they do video analysis at academies, but the coaches also tell you how to fix the errors. I for one would like to see Chas Tennis's serve to know who I am dealing with. What do you say there, Chas? Is your serve high level?

Not seen his serve either but he does have a very informative article on ISR at TP.net:
https://www.tennisplayer.net/public/biomechanics/chas_stumpfel/internal_shoulder_rotation/index.html

Believe he also has another article on TP but I've not seen it.

 

[Gazelle]

Who cares. Results are what matter. If it's working for you, do it.

I think there is a distinction between having the racquet face up slightly before contact and doing a waiter's tray serve where a beginner throws the ball up and pops it over the net. Ffs, it looks like in some of those Matt Lin videos that he points towards the sky before contact rather than staying on edge. Is his serve not high level? Ridiculous. There's a spectrum -- the categories aren't black and white.

Anyway, all this analysis and pointing out errors, is, in my opinion, useless. Yes, they do video analysis at academies, but the coaches also tell you how to fix the errors. I for one would like to see Chas Tennis's serve to know who I am dealing with. What do you say there, Chas? Is your serve high level?

Yes, Matt Lin has quite a good serve in my opinion. About Chas, I think I once saw his serve and it looked pretty rubbish (although I shouldn't really say much). He hasn't yet learned how to translate his ISR and ESR concepts into an effective service motion. His analysis might be correct, but I don't think you can learn tennis by overanalyzing.

 

[Limpinhitter]

Carter Capps (below) has a very good throwing motion but I'm not sure that a proper grip with this motion would not result in WTE. Ball throwing mechanics are somewhat different than racket throwing mechanics.

You don't show his hand position in the upward part of his motion. In any event, if your premise is true, then that serves to show that the wte is a myth, is irrelevant, and obsessing over it is a waste of time.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Then the wte is irrelevant and obsessing over it is a waste of time.

That's not been my experience in teaching students who employ at WTE. With some, a simple grip change will do the trick as you suggested. But, sadly, this does not work for all.

 

[Limpinhitter]

Quote from HiTech Tennis on their use of the Big L Position.
"Instead of the "waiter's tray" position, Andre needs to get in the "Big L" where the butt cap of the racket points to the net and the strings face the side fence (not up to the sky)......"
http://www.hi-techtennis.com/serve/big_l_student.php

This seems to include the "strings face the side fence" as part of the definition of the Big L Position for the high level serve only. These words are basically undefined and have a tennis usage, such as it is. I had assumed that the 'Big L' referred only to the appearance of the near straight arm and racket as an upside down Big L. Arguing over usage and meanings of undefined tennis terms is not a very interesting forum subject.

Does the term Big L include the 'edge on' or "strings face the side fence" but the term Big L does not include the strings face the sky?

More nonsense! Raul, assuming you are able to manipulate such a position, you shouldn't try. It is passive, like the flip of the forehand. I think that if you continue to work on your throwing motion - with staggered timing as I suggested - all of these issues will resolve themselves.

 

[Limpinhitter]

That's not been my experience in teaching students who employ at WTE. With some, a simple grip change will do the trick as you suggested. But, sadly, this does not work for all.

If a simple grip change resolves what you refer to as wte, then the term wte is sophistry by definition. If it doesn't, then I am confident a properly executed throwing motion would.

 

[Deleted member 754093]

Watch some of these in slow motion. It looks like the racquet faces the sky and opens up slightly before contact.

Who the **** cares? That's a great serve for his height and level! Granted it's not pro level, but barely anybody can get to that.

Much much different from this.

 

[Deleted member 754093]

Not seen his serve either but he does have a very informative article on ISR at TP.net:
https://www.tennisplayer.net/public/biomechanics/chas_stumpfel/internal_shoulder_rotation/index.html

Believe he also has another article on TP but I've not seen it.

I'm not saying that the shoulder doesn't internally rotate during the serve. I'm saying that no one who has developed a high level serve has consciously thought about internally rotating the shoulder. For something that occurs that quickly, I doubt you have any conscious control over it.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

If a simple grip change resolves what you refer to as wte, then the term wte is sophistry by definition. If it doesn't, then I am confident a properly executed throwing motion would.

Nope. That grip change works considerably less than half the time. Perhaps one out of every 4 or 5. Not sophistry at all. A properly executed throwing motion sometimes helps. Again, not always. Note that some of us throw balls with the opposite arm that we serve with. As I indicated previously, ball throwing and racket throwing mechanics are not quite the same. Have had more success with racket throwing drills than ball throwing drills -- but I do use them both.

 

[Limpinhitter]

Nope. That grip change works considerably less than half the time. Perhaps one out of every 4 or 5. Not sophistry at all. A properly executed throwing motion sometimes helps. Again, not always. Note that some of us throw balls with the opposite arm that we serve with. As I indicated previously, ball throwing and racket throwing mechanics are not quite the same. Have had more success with racket throwing drills than ball throwing drills -- but I do use them both.

If a player has a good throwing motion and a proper grip, and you see a problem with a so called wte, then you see a problem that doesn't exist.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

If a player has a good throwing motion and a proper grip, and you see a problem with a so called wte, then you see a problem that doesn't exist.

If it was only that simple. I've seen more than enough who can execute a upward ball throw just fine. Have done it with both tennis balls and footballs. But as soon as they put the racket in the hand to swing at a ball toss, the mechanics fall apart. Ball throwing mechanics do not guarantee optimal racket throwing mechanics.

 

[Deleted member 754093]

If a player has a good throwing motion and a proper grip, and you see a problem with a so called wte, then you see a problem that doesn't exist.

I'm pretty sure I do a little Matt Lin opening up WTE, but only on flat serves. Slice and Kick are fine. I was a pitcher growing up and think I have a pretty good throwing motion. I also use more of a strict continental for slice and kick, whereas I cheat a little on the flat and I guess shift slightly more towards an eastern forehand?

No one ever corrected me because it's imperceptible unless you watch in slow motion. I also frequently had one of the biggest serves among my peers, so there was no need to change anything.

I also don't really give a damn.

 

[Raul_SJ]

More nonsense! Raul, assuming you are able to manipulate such a position, you shouldn't try. It is passive, like the flip of the forehand. I think that if you continue to work on your throwing motion - with staggered timing as I suggested - all of these issues will resolve themselves.

You are quoting Chas. I did not post that ...

I tend to agree that if one has the right grip and a staggered motion, and "throws" the racquet at the ball, the WTE is less likely. I am practicing the ball throw and staggered motion.

That is my personal experience. I'm not a coach. SA says it only works with 1 out of 5 students.

Keep in mind that everything can be fine with a shadow swing or ball throw and can then completely fall apart when the toss is introduced. Brady told me this happens with his students very often.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

I'm pretty sure I do a little Matt Lin opening up WTE, but only on flat serves. Slice and Kick are fine. I was a pitcher growing up and think I have a pretty good throwing motion. I also use more of a strict continental for slice and kick, whereas I cheat a little on the flat and I guess shift slightly more towards an eastern forehand?

No one ever corrected me because it's imperceptible unless you watch in slow motion. I also frequently had one of the biggest serves among my peers, so there was no need to change anything.

I also don't really give a damn.

That flat serve cheat is possibly what Boris Becker and Serena Williams employed on their 1st serves.

If you have a sub-optimal racket orientation on your serve but can still hit with decent pace and decent spin, that is fine -- assuming that you are not putting undue stress on the shoulder or arm. With a significant WTE, very little or no pronation is employed on the serve. WTE servers find it difficult to put much topspin on the ball (not much side spin either). Many of these servers won't have much margin (for error) and will sometimes develop overuse injuries much quicker than non-WTE servers.

 

[Limpinhitter]

If it was only that simple. I've seen more than enough who can execute a upward ball throw just fine. Have done it with both tennis balls and footballs. But as soon as they put the racket in the hand to swing at a ball toss, the mechanics fall apart. Ball throwing mechanics do not guarantee optimal racket throwing mechanics.

If the mechanics fall apart, then they don't have a good throwing motion - when it matters.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

If the mechanics fall apart, then they don't have a good throwing motion - when it matters.

That is what I am saying. Good ball throwing mechanics do not automatically transfer decent racket throwing mechanics for all individuals. This is all a lot easier with naturally gifted athletes or even with those who have athletic skills that considerably above average. Working with individual who have average athletic skills or less are definitely a challenge. They do not all learn correct skills in the same manner.

 

[Curious]

I noticed while doing some shadow serves that it's almost impossible to hit a WT serve if you hold the racket with hammer grip and maintain the 90 degree angle between racket and forearm. But it causes no problem with the ability to throw and especially pronate. Any thoughts or experience about that?

 

[Bender]

If you want to lose the subconscious waiter's tray, you need to pull yourself up by the bootstraps, stop buying avocado toast, and start a real estate empire with a small loan of a million dollars.

Alternatively, you can give all your money and equipment to your nearest 5.0+ player, and hope that his technique will trickle down back to you.

 

[dgold44]

Here is another one with 100% edge on racket path all the way.

Why is the arm almost 180 degrees straight on the takeback as I find this too stiff for me and I cannot get any drop of racket so i pancaked it

 

[dgold44]

If you want to lose the subconscious waiter's tray, you need to pull yourself up by the bootstraps, stop buying avocado toast, and start a real estate empire with a small loan of a million dollars.

Alternatively, you can give all your money and equipment to your nearest 5.0+ player, and hope that his technique will trickle down back to you.

It has taken me over 2 yrs of misery to go from waiters try to semi racket drop to upper back

 

[Bender]

It has taken me over 2 yrs of misery to go from waiters try to semi racket drop to upper back

I take it you didn't do any throwing sports growing up?

 

[dgold44]

I take it you didn't do any throwing sports growing up?

Correct !!!!

 

[Bender]

Correct !!!!

I'm just glad I lucked out and had a friend who played competitive baseball teach me how to throw in primary school