Flat vs Spin serves?

[Traffic]

So I've been getting a bunch of c**p from my son about my weak serve. I have a slop spin that I've resurrected from my younger days. I seem to have lost my topspin...or what pieces I had of it. But my goal right now is to improve my "2nd" spin serve to the point where it's money. Then I'll work on a 1st serve. So for the moment, I just move the ball around and vary the spin slightly.

But receiving serves, I've noticed I seem to have a harder time returning weaker spin serves than fast, powerful, flat serves. It typically takes about 2 serves for me to get the timing and then I just short swing it back and the server is surprised to see the ball come back equally as hard.

Weaker spin serves, on the other hand, can give me fits where I not only have to generate my own pace back, but also take into account the action of the ball. For my son, I don't think anything goes through his head. He just steps way up and takes the ball on the rise.

This is in a 3.0-3.5 doubles. I tell my son that for now, if I can just get my 2nd serves in and not double fault, my chances of winning the game are pretty high... Any tips for working on my service progression? And then also what I should be doing with the weaker second serves on my return? I mostly try to hit back to the server with a bit more angle. But I always get tempted to rip it back right to his feet. And that doesn't always work the way I want to...

 

[jm1980]

So I've been getting a bunch of c**p from my son about my weak serve. I have a slop spin that I've resurrected from my younger days. I seem to have lost my topspin...or what pieces I had of it. But my goal right now is to improve my "2nd" spin serve to the point where it's money. Then I'll work on a 1st serve. So for the moment, I just move the ball around and vary the spin slightly.

But receiving serves, I've noticed I seem to have a harder time returning weaker spin serves than fast, powerful, flat serves. It typically takes about 2 serves for me to get the timing and then I just short swing it back and the server is surprised to see the ball come back equally as hard.

Weaker spin serves, on the other hand, can give me fits where I not only have to generate my own pace back, but also take into account the action of the ball. For my son, I don't think anything goes through his head. He just steps way up and takes the ball on the rise.

This is in a 3.0-3.5 doubles. I tell my son that for now, if I can just get my 2nd serves in and not double fault, my chances of winning the game are pretty high... Any tips for working on my service progression? And then also what I should be doing with the weaker second serves on my return? I mostly try to hit back to the server with a bit more angle. But I always get tempted to rip it back right to his feet. And that doesn't always work the way I want to...

Topspin serves in 3.0-3.5 doubles? I bet you're mopping up the competition

 

[Traffic]

Topspin serves in 3.0-3.5 doubles? I bet you're mopping up the competition

Not quite. You missed the part about the "slop" spin. Topspin was in HS. I can't seem to get my mechanics quite back for that right now.

But to your point, I typically hold serve as there is enough action on my serves that my net guy can easily put away a lot of shots. Not a ton of footwork for older 3.0-3.5 players if the ball starts at the BH and moves towards the body... But I'm thinking as I move up, I'll see my serves coming back to me pretty hard.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

My serve progression:
* 3.5->4.0 - hit a topspin serve (ie. eliminate double faults)
* low 4.0-> high 4.0 - direct topspin serve to backhand third of the box, always
* 4.0 -> low 4.5 - kick serve/extremely well placed topspin serve - prevent returner from running around bh and/or prevent them from attacking the 2nd serve
* low 4.5 -> mid 4.5+ - consistent topslice serve - earn free points or short balls

this year i'm just working on serve... specifically hitting all 1st serves at a much higher % (to hopefully earn a short ball): hardslice/topslice/flat - wide/T/body
maybe i can add some mph, with good technique, to break 100mph consistently - but more likely i'll develop a "5.0" serve through better placement and variety (and consistency)

imo the key to this will be an extremelyconsistent toss so i can focus on loading various power sources (legs, coil, shoulder drop, etc...) and not wonder where the ball is gonna be.

 

[dct693]

If you're playing doubles, the simplest game plan is to get your serve in such that your net person can put the ball away. This means obviously not double-faulting and not serving up cream puffs. I have enough power to hit pressuring 1st serves, but my % is only like 50% on a good day. I learned not to rely on it, but to develop a really good 2nd serve. It's taken me about 2 years but my 2nd serve now gives 4.0-4.5 players difficulty. I use it most of the time, only pulling out the hard slice serve occasionally. On returns you've seen what I've also seen: opponents often have an easier time returning my low % faster serves than my spinny 2nd serve. It's usually not worth the risk, except to upset their timing and to give them something else to think about.

 

[Traffic]

My serve progression:
* 3.5->4.0 - hit a topspin serve (ie. eliminate double faults)
* low 4.0-> high 4.0 - direct topspin serve to backhand third of the box, always
* 4.0 -> low 4.5 - kick serve/extremely well placed topspin serve - prevent returner from running around bh and/or prevent them from attacking the 2nd serve
* low 4.5 -> mid 4.5+ - consistent topslice serve - earn free points or short balls

this year i'm just working on serve... specifically hitting all 1st serves at a much higher % (to hopefully earn a short ball): hardslice/topslice/flat - wide/T/body
maybe i can add some mph, with good technique, to break 100mph consistently - but more likely i'll develop a "5.0" serve through better placement and variety (and consistency)

imo the key to this will be an extremelyconsistent toss so i can focus on loading various power sources (legs, coil, shoulder drop, etc...) and not wonder where the ball is gonna be.

Good progression outline. Will keep that on a sticky.

If you're playing doubles, the simplest game plan is to get your serve in such that your net person can put the ball away. This means obviously not double-faulting and not serving up cream puffs. I have enough power to hit pressuring 1st serves, but my % is only like 50% on a good day. I learned not to rely on it, but to develop a really good 2nd serve. It's taken me about 2 years but my 2nd serve now gives 4.0-4.5 players difficulty. I use it most of the time, only pulling out the hard slice serve occasionally. On returns you've seen what I've also seen: opponents often have an easier time returning my low % faster serves than my spinny 2nd serve. It's usually not worth the risk, except to upset their timing and to give them something else to think about.

Played Flights last night. Held all my serve games. I guess my toss is not so consistent right now. But it's within a tolerance to get the ball in most of the time. Double-faulted 3 times.

Won a lot of points off my 2nd serve. Mostly causing weak returns that my net person puts away. I did get one ace as I ran the ball off the court on deuce side. The comment I heard back from one of the players was that I put varying spin on the ball and place the ball in different areas of the service box so you never know where the ball is going. I guess the variations in the ball toss is confusing my opponents as well as myself...

I did have to tell my net partners to stand their ground on my second serve as I won't back off.

I'm assuming I can keep this up for another 1 or 2 courts. Then I start hitting the 3.5 players.

 

[esgee48]

I'm short so I have to spin the ball in. What matters are where and how fast; so TS, Kick, Flat (still spins), Slice or combos to the sides of the service box. Works well at 4.5-; Does not work well at 4.5+.

Visualize that your ball toss will land about 1/2' - 1' in front of your chest and slightly into the court. That's actually the spot I look at when I toss. That's what help me with a consistent toss. I use a platform stance so there is little movement from moving the lower body. 3 cents.

 

[Traffic]

I'm short so I have to spin the ball in. What matters are where and how fast; so TS, Kick, Flat (still spins), Slice or combos to the sides of the service box. Works well at 4.5-; Does not work well at 4.5+.

Visualize that your ball toss will land about 1/2' - 1' in front of your chest and slightly into the court. That's actually the spot I look at when I toss. That's what help me with a consistent toss. I use a platform stance so there is little movement from moving the lower body. 3 cents.

Thanks, I'll try to keep that in mind next practice. One technique that I didn't bring back from the good ol' days was using my legs. I was arching my back rather than bending my knees. Once I started bending my knees again, I was able to get my serve consistency up.

I had a terrible experience working on a kick serve with a private coach (basically my shoulder and lats were in so much pain). But I think there were other contributing causes. I may try kick serves again now that things have stabilized in terms of muscle/connective tissue pains.

Again, what gave my doubles opponents fits, makes my son laugh when he returns.

 

[Lance L]

-I think the topspin serve should be our base serve, if you will. Not a kick serve, a topspin serve. This base serve is our second serve, and should be very reliable.
-The first serve is a modification of the base serve with more forward force and less spin. Or of course you can hit it for both.
-Your experience returning serve is also what I've seen and felt. In general a spin serve is harder to return than a flat serve because it is harder to judge, there are more dimensions to deal with.
-As a side note, the idea of a flat serve is really a myth, or should be. Certainly at the pro level there isn't a flat serve. Their first serves have a significant topspin component. Check out the analysis at tennisplayer.net for confirmation.
-Your shoulder pain is quite common. When i started playing tennis again four years ago, at age 42, I played a three match tournament and my right shoulder burned for a month. It comes and goes and I've learned to manage it.
-As far as I can tell it is a combo of bad technique and rotator cuff problems from that same bad technique 20 years ago. Oh, and poor posture, which stretches the rotator cuff and makes it vulnerable.
-Study better technique, do rotator cuff exercises, and you can probably manage this. Take your time, have a very long time horizon.

 

[movdqa]

So I've been getting a bunch of c**p from my son about my weak serve. I have a slop spin that I've resurrected from my younger days. I seem to have lost my topspin...or what pieces I had of it. But my goal right now is to improve my "2nd" spin serve to the point where it's money. Then I'll work on a 1st serve. So for the moment, I just move the ball around and vary the spin slightly.

But receiving serves, I've noticed I seem to have a harder time returning weaker spin serves than fast, powerful, flat serves. It typically takes about 2 serves for me to get the timing and then I just short swing it back and the server is surprised to see the ball come back equally as hard.

Weaker spin serves, on the other hand, can give me fits where I not only have to generate my own pace back, but also take into account the action of the ball. For my son, I don't think anything goes through his head. He just steps way up and takes the ball on the rise.

This is in a 3.0-3.5 doubles. I tell my son that for now, if I can just get my 2nd serves in and not double fault, my chances of winning the game are pretty high... Any tips for working on my service progression? And then also what I should be doing with the weaker second serves on my return? I mostly try to hit back to the server with a bit more angle. But I always get tempted to rip it back right to his feet. And that doesn't always work the way I want to...

He could just find another partner.

 

[BlueB]

I'm club rated 4.0. When I play doubles in a very informal large group (15-20 players) where we switch partners after every set. I get to see everything from strong 3.0 to borderline 4.5. Singles I play mostly with 4.0s and said borderline 4.5s. I'm probably the best server in both groups, 1st and 2nd serve combined.
Quite a while ago I've given up on max speed/effort on the flat first. It's too hard on my not so young body and percentage goes down. Instead, I serve at about 85%, but make sure of placement and ALWAYS put some work on the ball, warning the top, side and reverse spins. I get lots of free points.
On 2nd, while I can serve kick, top or top-slice at full speed, it is not consistent enough for my taste. I get much better percentages of a half-assed placed serve that still has some work on it. Surprisingly, I get fair number of freebies serving such a serve right into FH wheelhouse, even with higher ranked opponents. Seems like they feel it can be killed and over commit, while the small amount of work on the ball confuses them enough to make error...
Summary: placement, spins, power on 1st.

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[GuyClinch]

Maybe its because I am tall - but I would not abandon or even concentrate on a topspin serve before learning to hit a flat one. The flat serve is the base serve - and that's because its biomechanically similar to a throw that's in the direction of the target. That makes it the one to learn first.

Even in doubles if I get up - I hit them. Flat serve is like a fastball in baseball. You might pitch junk - but even a knuckleballer has an occasional 'fastball'.

 

[movdqa]

Maybe its because I am tall - but I would not abandon or even concentrate on a topspin serve before learning to hit a flat one. The flat serve is the base serve - and that's because its biomechanically similar to a throw that's in the direction of the target. That makes it the one to learn first.

Even in doubles if I get up - I hit them. Flat serve is like a fastball in baseball. You might pitch junk - but even a knuckleballer has an occasional 'fastball'.

I learned the flat serve first as a young teen but then added the slice and kick serves later on that I learned from a book. Today, we see a lot of top/top-slice serve from the top players. How often do you see Murray, Djokovic, Federer or Nadal hit flat serves? Do Federer and Nadal even ever hit flat serves? Yeah, if you're Karlovic or Isner, I can see hitting flat serves but even they hit a lot of kickers - partially because it's hard to return a kicker over your head.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

I learned the flat serve first as a young teen but then added the slice and kick serves later on that I learned from a book. Today, we see a lot of top/top-slice serve from the top players. How often do you see Murray, Djokovic, Federer or Nadal hit flat serves? Do Federer and Nadal even ever hit flat serves? Yeah, if you're Karlovic or Isner, I can see hitting flat serves but even they hit a lot of kickers - partially because it's hard to return a kicker over your head.

+1

roddick later toned down his serve speed from 150 to 130 in favor of spin and placement

 

[Connors Fan]

If your tall, maybe a flattish serve. If your not, the percentage is probably too low. Doubles is mostly about first serves, with enough action to cause weak returns. To firm my topspin, topspin slice serve, I just served that serve for 6 months when I started playing tennis again. so essentially two second serves, with the first one slightly harder.

I agree with most of above, placement with some decent spin (doesn't have to jump up 5-6') is the key.

 

[movdqa]

Oops - checked the OP as we're straying a bit:

"And then also what I should be doing with the weaker second serves on my return? I mostly try to hit back to the server with a bit more angle. But I always get tempted to rip it back right to his feet. And that doesn't always work the way I want to..."

I find that the secret to hitting short or slow balls is footwork. Get to a place with your body on your back foot where you can hit it comfortably if it winds up in your strike zone but be prepared to move forward if it's a little short. My favorite model for this is Andy Murray where he takes a little hop step if it's shorter than he expects. The secret is in being prepared to take the hop-step if you need to. If it's really short, then you can always go for the newbie underspin hack so that you can reach it shot.

 

[BlueB]

We've got a new 4.0 player in our group lessons. He serves flat bombs, 1st and 2nd, with amazing consistency, but without much placement... It was tremendously easy for me to return those, very often with hefty interest!
Once coach asked him to serve top spin 2nd (which he doesn't do too great), it was actually harder for me to return aggressively...

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[GuyClinch]

If your tall, maybe a flattish serve. If your not, the percentage is probably too low. Doubles is mostly about first serves, with enough action to cause weak returns. To firm my topspin, topspin slice serve, I just served that serve for 6 months when I started playing tennis again. so essentially two second serves, with the first one slightly harder.

Agree from a strategy standpoint. But from a development standpoint I think it makes sense to work your flat serve.
You are throwing towards about 1PM and that's very close to the optimal throwing position. You get to turn your hips and shoulders towards the target. You get to contact the ball fairly close to the release point of a real throw.

All these factors make it essential for players who have really strong serve to have a good flat serve. Any teaching pro for example. Our local pro is only 5'8" or so - but he can still smack a 100+ flat serve in at will. He isn't a big serve but if you have that basic motion then you can build out from that..

Did he actually use that during his college playing days - my bet is not much. But so what.. You still need it.

At lower rec levels you run into 3.0 - 4.0 guys who only have some bastardization of a serve with some spin on it. It's generally some slowish topslice thing. But occasionally it's some sidearm weirdness. It works okay don't get me wrong but these guys missed out on really developing their serve..

It took me a long time to get this - I wondered why pros didn't teach a slice serve first. And its because all the other serves are like slighty tweaked throws.. The basic one - that's what you want to master. I don't believe you have to be that tall to hit flat serves in. I think people give up too easy..

I think fear of failure hurts them too much in matches - and they never develop the serve they could because they didn't work on the flat serve.. Again going back to baseball - all the pitchers developer a fast ball first - even if in the bigs they threw mostly curves.

And FWIW I feel that the people that think they can return faster flat serves is a lot smaller..then the actually number. Guys who hit 'big' 80-85 MPH flats - easier to return. But guys who can push it up to the 100's can dominate in rec scenarios - even at 4.5 near as I can tell.

OP is a guy in the danger zone. He wants us to say - hey don't sweat it spin serves are better anyway. But you want RHS on your serve. That makes all of them better. And I think the flat serve helps you develop that RHS as its like a demonstration of your RHS every time you hit it.

And once you have a fast flat serve - the other serves are just variations of it - and they come easier.

 

[atp2015]

My serve progression:
* 3.5->4.0 - hit a topspin serve (ie. eliminate double faults)
* low 4.0-> high 4.0 - direct topspin serve to backhand third of the box, always
* 4.0 -> low 4.5 - kick serve/extremely well placed topspin serve - prevent returner from running around bh and/or prevent them from attacking the 2nd serve
* low 4.5 -> mid 4.5+ - consistent topslice serve - earn free points or short balls

A nice catalog of progression. Did you work on it on your own or with coaching?

I have had "two steps forward, one step back" sort of progress trying on my own and had to dial in to get help (when it seemed like I might be in a "one step forward, two steps back" situation)

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

It's MUCH MUCH easier to return a fast serve than a spinning serve.

 

[LeeD]

It's MUCH MUCH easier to return a fast serve than a spinning serve.

Ridiculous. Try returning Dr. Ivo's or Roddicks flat serves.

 

[movdqa]

Ridiculous. Try returning Dr. Ivo's or Roddicks flat serves.

I think that it would be tough returning a flat serve or a spin serve from either of those two.

What matters more is the folks that we play against.

And I'd agree, that outside of the 6'5" player with the radar-certified 120 MPH serve, the spinny stuff gives me more problems.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

A nice catalog of progression. Did you work on it on your own or with coaching?

I have had "two steps forward, one step back" sort of progress trying on my own and had to dial in to get help (when it seemed like I might be in a "one step forward, two steps back" situation)

That was a 20y progression. With some time off in between.

Definitely in the category of 1 step back, 2 steps forward.

It's waaaay easier (cheaper!) to learn now with YouTube.


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[GuyClinch]

And I'd agree, that outside of the 6'5" player with the radar-certified 120 MPH serve, the spinny stuff gives me more problems.

For anyone under 4.5 a guy that can move around a 100mph serve can dominate, IMHO. Yes if you have crap technique you can get free points blocking back slowish 'flat' serves. But as the MPH increase you simply don't have the reaction time.

Go watch some matches on a playsight machine to understand what I am saying. Guys that can bring it 100mph - more then enough at rec levels.

 

[Dartagnan64]

For anyone under 4.5 a guy that can move around a 100mph serve can dominate, IMHO. Yes if you have crap technique you can get free points blocking back slowish 'flat' serves. But as the MPH increase you simply don't have the reaction time.

Go watch some matches on a playsight machine to understand what I am saying. Guys that can bring it 100mph - more then enough at rec levels.

The number of guys that are under 4.5 that can hit 100 mph serves to all corners has to be tiny. I think anyone that can do that at the rec level will beat every 4.0 they come across. Most high speed flat serves from 4.0 and lower go to three spots (net, long and centre of the service box).

And you create reaction time by standing further back. That gives them angles if they can hit the corners to ace you, but anything into the middle of the service court can be returned if you are 10 feet back.

Personally I think you can dominate moving around a 100 mph serve all the way to 5.5.

 

[movdqa]

For anyone under 4.5 a guy that can move around a 100mph serve can dominate, IMHO. Yes if you have crap technique you can get free points blocking back slowish 'flat' serves. But as the MPH increase you simply don't have the reaction time.

Go watch some matches on a playsight machine to understand what I am saying. Guys that can bring it 100mph - more then enough at rec levels.

I do play a guy that's 6'5" with a radar-certified 120 MPH serve. The only thing is that he can only hit it about 20 degrees to either side of the center line. He hits a top or top-slice to hit it to the forehand side of the deuce court and hits a top serve (can reach head-height) to the backhand side on the ad court. So if I see the flat serve coming, I have a pretty good idea as to where it's going. I do have more problems with his kick serve, particularly on the ad side.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

It's MUCH MUCH easier to return a fast serve than a spinning serve.

Ridiculous. Try returning Dr. Ivo's or Roddicks flat serves.

Yeah, just to clarify... i agree that our rec levels, a flat serve is much easier to return because:
* usually a flat serve at the rec level does not come with accuracy, and tends to be "in the middle of the box"
* no need to account for ball spinning off your racquet
* no need to account for ball moving after the bounce (ie. i can set my back foot early and not have to adjust)
* a flat/fast serve, i can take a short backswing and/or block the ball back

for me, anything over 110 or so (guesstimating based on my experiences on a playsite court that tracks serve speed), starts giving me trouble (from just the raw speed).

regarding my serve... i typically have more success hitting a slow moving heavy spin kicker than my 95-100mp flat serve (which i miss at least 50% of the time). because my %'s are so low, i tend to only aim for the middle of the box (body serve, as a change up when they creep in to cut off angles)

for me, when i serve:
flat serve: more aces and forced errors, but low %
spin serve: no aces, but high %, but can usually (hopefully) dictate points after getting short or neutralzing ball