Frustrating match against pusher
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Morch Us
Hall of Fame
pencilcheck
Hall of Fame
I'm not sure what you are trying to insinulate but I can hit and win points off 4.5 if I focused. I have already past 3, and 4 level is probably too easy to read as well.
But to be humble and realistic, I will subtract .5 level from what I think I'm in. I think I'm still growing, right now my level is probably 4 in a good day. And given I only play 1-2 times a week I'm proud of my achievement.
I do understand at higher level, people play very different game all together, but my mental image of a pusher has been told by people that they are those who hit high slow baseline shots that are meant to push people behind baseline so they can keep running to reach the next one and do the same over and over again.
If you agree with this mental image, then if I encounter a pusher, I have a higher confidence to win as their winning strategy is very monotoned and monotoned strategy will not work at higher level, because it is too predictable and might also show their weakness (not able to handle different situation).
1. Slice to pull them around, run vertically instead of horizontally
2. Top spin to push them to the back to make them misjudge the amount of forces needed to land a good deep shot
3. If they hit short you can start the angle, stay low then you will have a easy put away.
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..and we're back to this.......
pencilcheck
Hall of Fame
Looks like some people really seriously think there is high level pusher. To me, high level pusher just means, slow serve, slow shots, and all they can do is slow high bouncing balls with no spin. It takes skills to get consistent with this kinda annoying shots, yes, but ultimately it is very easy to break down.
Murray is not a pusher, simply because he has variety, serve 130 mph, very very good at slices and CC backhand. He can be all court player, as he is trained to. However his playstyle is more of a counterpuncher + baseline game.
Luke Yonex
Rookie
Takes skill to do these shots without over hitting the ball so it goes out, All good players do them especially in doubles, , Its called a deep lob
Morch Us
Hall of Fame
I do respect all levels and my intention was not to look down upon anyone based on level.
When someone asserts something like below, that is usually an indication that they have not attained X level yet, and so have not seen X level pusher. Or in otherwords, anyone at X level cannot be a pusher, because X level has higher skills than me. This WILL change once you reach X level.
Once a 3.0 aggressive player become 4.0, even though his playing style remains same, he will be more consistent in his "aggressive shots". And the quality of aggression would increase. It is the same for ANY playing style. The basic playing style remains same, but quality increases, and other skills starts to form.
When someone asserts something like below, that is usually an indication that they have not attained X level yet, and so have not seen X level pusher. Or in otherwords, anyone at X level cannot be a pusher, because X level has higher skills than me. This WILL change once you reach X level.
Once a 3.0 aggressive player become 4.0, even though his playing style remains same, he will be more consistent in his "aggressive shots". And the quality of aggression would increase. It is the same for ANY playing style. The basic playing style remains same, but quality increases, and other skills starts to form.
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pencilcheck
Hall of Fame
I disagree with your statement.
Also I'm not sure what you mean by playing style. It seems like you have different definition than I do.
Are you implying everyone ultimately is a pusher since everyone started out bunting the ball in therefore according to your definition, as you get better you will remain a pusher?
Btw, before you start saying people starting of have different play style, let's define what that means. Play style in my opinion, governs by the shots you can make that you trained for. Not everyone starting off tennis with the same proficiency but all beginners of tennis have to start learning to bunt the ball into the court first before moving on. And no beginner can really do slices, let along serves, kick serves, they can't even rally properly.
Therefore, based on your logic, and based on my understanding of what you just said, it seems like you are implying that even the most greatest player like Federer is a pusher, same with other players in your local tourney, same with all your old geezers who play in your local courts, all of them started off doing 3.0 stuff, therefore they are all the same?
That is a very flaws logic in my opinion, the high level game is very very different, andy murray is not a pusher, pusher can't exist beyond 4.0. Reasons I think I already sorted of explained in my earlier posts.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
Whenever someone states that X is impossible, I reflexively disagree.
In this case, "it's impossible for a pusher to exist beyond 4.0".
I think this statement demonstrates what @Morch Us explained: "have not attained X level yet, and so have not seen X level pusher".
I'm a 4.5 and have played against what you claim is impossible. I won rather easily because his game matched up poorly against my S&V. But I saw him beat a teammate because the pusher made very few errors and my teammate made a lot more [he likes pace and couldn't adjust his game].
Is this common? Not at all. But they do exist. I've never seen one at 5.0 but then again, I don't play 5.0s often so I can't categorically state they don't exist. I'm willing to bet if I asked my 5.0 friends if pushers exist at 5.0, they'd say "yes" [although if I watched this "pusher" play I might not think the description was apt].
Luke Yonex
Rookie
lets just call everyone a pusher and end the tread. 
Injured Again
Hall of Fame
You are absolutely correct, IMO, that the original "pusher" description is not apt at the higher levels. A person I know is known for being a defensively oriented player. He's a highly rated 5.0, and sits very near the top of our section's tournament ratings - he is always seeded in our level 2 state age group championships and has won it at least once that I know of. Most competitors very respectfully call him a pusher.
At that level, he rarely will play offensely against an aggressive player. He has a loopy topspin forehand and a supremely accurate underspin backhand, both of which he tends to take the pace off of balls, but also consistently able to hit with depth when under considerable pressure. He is also great at anticipation and seems to have eyes on the back of his head. I've played him twice in competition, losing 3 and 2 and 4 and 2, and most times I came in behind a powerful groundie, he would dump a ball right at my feet and have a good swing at a pass on the second ball. If I hit that same groundie and didn't come in, he'd float back a return within 6-10 feet of the baseline.
He doesn't serve over 80 MPH but is very accurate and gets good height on the bounce. He plays doubles as well and is very good up at net. He almost never goes for a clean one ball pass but instead just makes the net person reach and play a ball below the net, then goes for it on . He backs up well for overheads and almost never makes tactical errors or tightens up wheen the score is close.
A fantastic player. Both times we competed, he was able to blunt my ballspeed and make me go for too much and miss. I am not skilled enough to volley him off the court. When I tried to draw him in, he made me hit tough passing shots that he covered with his excellent anticipation and knowledge of where I was likely able to hit the ball. And I'm not patient enough to play his game. Basically unbeatable for me unless I am having an out-of-body day, but how often do you have those?
pencilcheck
Hall of Fame
That sounds like a exceptional and good tennis player who understand the game and is good at pulling you apart with angles and variety.
And yes, looks like some people in this forum is very stubborn and want to define pusher as any "defensive oriented" player.
However in my own mind, they are not defensive oriented, they are just playing a different game. You are not beaten by power, because at their level they don't need power to beat you. They see tennis as a percentage game, a control game, because at their level power without control or angles or rhythm breaking is useless.
That's why modern game is so dominated by player who do a lot of topspin and favor those players since they have more consistency and control over their shot to open the angle up and thus able to break the other player more consistently.
But looks like the person you described knows how to use slices at a very high level, I believe he can easily slice that push you away, slice the pull you in and slice that hits the sidelines and create angles, and that's a signature of a high level player at least 4.5+.
Yea, somehow you all agree with what I just said, all I'm arguing is that the term "pusher" is very well defined: a player who have no control over their shot, can only bunt the ball back, most of the time might not be always at the baseline, so they might produce a lot of short balls easily for the opponent to attack. A lot of those pusher based on my definition breaks down once you hit a shot they have not encountered before like a slice, sidespin, topspin that bounce high, angled shots, volley shots, etc.
The "pusher" the opposition is arguing about, are simply tennis at a different level playing all together, they are not playing for winners, they are playing for angles and variety, rhythm breaking, mental capacity management, concentration breaking, etc. E.g. you see a lot of times of times Fed lost the first set (sometimes badly) but then proceed to win the rest. There are reasons for that.
I don't claim I understand this either, that's what I'm working on. But it should be clear that if you don't understand what I refer to in the last sentence, you are not at the higher level. This is all according to experience talking to a lot of players who I played against at the high level (open level+, 4.5+, 5.0+). Based on what I have seen and heard and played against a lot of higher level player (of course they beat me to a pulp, and I have no clue how, and that's what I have been trying to learn lately), those who don't understand that level of game simply cannot compete at 4.5+, they will most likely get double babeled without knowing what's going on, or kill themselves constantly.
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Injured Again
Hall of Fame
Again, it seems it is your definition that is limited by your experiences. This is what you write:
Yea, somehow you all agree with what I just said, all I'm arguing is that the term "pusher" is very well defined: a player who have no control over their shot, can only bunt the ball back, most of the time might not be always at the baseline, so they might produce a lot of short balls easily for the opponent to attack. A lot of those pusher based on my definition breaks down once you hit a shot they have not encountered before like a slice, sidespin, topspin that bounce high, angled shots, volley shots, etc.
That's a classic definition of "beginner".
Players of all types evolve as their games improve. If you don't allow for that, then you are going to need a different definition for that same playing style for each skill level. As an example, think of someone at your level who you would classify as a "power player". To you, they hit the ball really hard. At higher levels, those shots turn into rally balls. So to you, that player is a "power player" and to a higher level player that person is an erratic "warmup/practice partner", and never hits a ball so fast that the higher level player thinks they are a power player. What would you call this same player from your level and from the perspective of the player at the higher level?
Pushers exist at all levels, and have different skills, ball control abilities, and mental characteristics as they progress, along with different levels of ball speed. That term is better used to define a playing style and preference for tactics in comparison to players at the level in which they compete.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
I don't know how you came to that conclusion unless you're only selectively looking for confirmation. I specifically disagreed with you on a couple of points.
And I disagree: if a pusher had no control over his shot, how would he be able to consistently get it back in? That implies a high degree of control; certainly not "no control".
Why is he able to make his shot so consistently? Because of 2 reasons:
- He's aiming for the fattest part of the court
- He's not hitting aggressively
Why this works so well at <= 4.0 is a different discussion.
The pusher is not limited to bunting, necessarily. He can hit a passing shot, for example. But that's not his comfort zone. That's why it's so effective to attack the net against a pusher: you force him to constantly have to hit shots he doesn't want to be hitting.
If they were easily attackable, pushers wouldn't be so successful.
Yes, it's easy to reach the ball but setting up optimally and executing the attack are not so easy.
A good player, whether he's a pusher, has seen all of those shots. I doubt you're going to be able to constantly surprise him.
You can, however, make him play outside his comfort zone, the 2 most obvious being to attack the net or hit short and draw him into the net. Now the pusher's main weapon is neutralized. Of course, you have to follow-through by being able to put away the volley or pass/lob/attack his volley.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
If this is who I think you are talking about, he wasn't always a pusher. He used to play a more aggressive style. He adapted his style as he got older to take advantage of his strengths relative to others his age.
Is there such a thing as an aggressive pusher? I don't think so. I believe "pushing" = defensive playing. The guys described as pushers count on opponents making unforced errors in order to win, meaning they don't have an aggressive gear, don't go for winners.
There are players at all levels that use "pushing" as a tactic, meaning play defensively, until an obvious opening becomes available, then they switch to an aggressive tactic. That's why people, myself included, say that someone like Murray is a pusher. It just means he plays more defensive shots than aggressive shots. It doesn't mean he doesn't hit aggressive shots. I really like Medvedev, even though he's kind of a pusher.
There are players at all levels that use "pushing" as a tactic, meaning play defensively, until an obvious opening becomes available, then they switch to an aggressive tactic. That's why people, myself included, say that someone like Murray is a pusher. It just means he plays more defensive shots than aggressive shots. It doesn't mean he doesn't hit aggressive shots. I really like Medvedev, even though he's kind of a pusher.
The guys who are saying a pusher is primarily defensive are ignoring Saint Brad. First two games of the set play at 60% see if your opponent will get tight and gift you errors. once you are ahead let your shots flow freely and see if you can break hin mentally. last 2 games of the set go back to 60% finals football no errors be the wall of death.
Now obviously what 60% is depends on your level.
Now obviously what 60% is depends on your level.
Injured Again
Hall of Fame
I was never close to this person's level until the last few years so I don't really know how he played before about six or seven years ago. He would be in your age group and I'm at least ten years older. I did play on several USTA teams as a 4.0 with his older brother, if this is the same person we are talking about.
PrinceMoron
Legend
Get a Prince 93p
You can hit your spots with confidence.
You can hit full strokes with confidence
Come in and volley anything
Hit solid serves
Killer lobs
Heavy slice
Pushers want you to lose all confidence in your shots and get super tight. That will never happen with a 93P.
You will grow in confidence every minute and the pusher will change their game and spray everything out.
93p will allow you to cut out 10 errors and win sets you would have otherwise lost.
At best you will annihilate the pusher
Don’t use the wrong equipment against a pusher, your Pure Drive will turn into an anchor round your neck if you are scared to hit the ball.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
You can hit your spots with confidence.
You can hit full strokes with confidence
Come in and volley anything
Hit solid serves
Killer lobs
Heavy slice
Pushers want you to lose all confidence in your shots and get super tight. That will never happen with a 93P.
You will grow in confidence every minute and the pusher will change their game and spray everything out.
93p will allow you to cut out 10 errors and win sets you would have otherwise lost.
At best you will annihilate the pusher
Don’t use the wrong equipment against a pusher, your Pure Drive will turn into an anchor round your neck if you are scared to hit the ball.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Oh dear, I am not saying Murray is pusher, I was responding to a post that said consistency only works up to a certain level. That is wrong, the best players in the world don't hit flat out, they play percentage tennis. Their percentage tennis is at a much higher level that we can manage but they are still not going for winners off every ball. Keeping the ball in play for one more shot is effective at every level.
Morch Us
Hall of Fame
That explains why it does not exist above 4.0.
FiReFTW
Legend
Wasn't there a vid not long ago of some junior boys where one was pushing and moonballing a lot and won at 4.5-5.0 level and also a video of some lower tennis event like challenger or lower where another girl was also moonballing alot?
So how does it not exist beyond some level like some people say?
I guess the difference is only in the quality of execution and also that those higher level ones do have an ability to do other things such as passing shots or attack at times.
So how does it not exist beyond some level like some people say?
I guess the difference is only in the quality of execution and also that those higher level ones do have an ability to do other things such as passing shots or attack at times.
3virgul14
Rookie
I was present in Baku at 2013 for a business trip and there was the WTA tournament. Went to the courts as they were free to attend and got the match between Errani and some girl called Cohen ( Julia maybe) . It was Errani prime and this Cohen girl was promising youngster.
At least half of the match were moonballs and some of them reached the stance I was sitting behind Cohen. They were bouncing so high she couldnt get these even jumping right in front of the seats
Morch Us
Hall of Fame
The simple explanation for that is ..... it is their definition of pusher.
So if someone define pusher==beginner, then they are correct, it does not exist beyond level X.
I tend to think that is NOT the most acceptable definition though. But I guess there are no written rules here.
So in summary, it is not worth debating.
So if someone define pusher==beginner, then they are correct, it does not exist beyond level X.
I tend to think that is NOT the most acceptable definition though. But I guess there are no written rules here.
So in summary, it is not worth debating.
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