How to beat a damn pusher.

[Curious]

Learn to take risk and hit the crap out of the ball and get it in. Make them regret being a pusher! For God’s sake when will we see a thread here from a crying pusher doubting his style and asking for advice?

 

[justRick]

Learn to take risk and hit the crap out of the ball and get it in. Make them regret being a pusher! For God’s sake when will we see a thread here from a crying pusher doubting his style and asking for advice?

True! And also be honest and admit that you're not as good as you think you are. Work harder!

 

[zaph]

Learn to take risk and hit the crap out of the ball and get it in. Make them regret being a pusher! For God’s sake when will we see a thread here from a crying pusher doubting his style and asking for advice?

You don't to cry when you win and below a certain level pushers win. So why would they need any advice?

 

[Curious]

You don't to cry when you win and below a certain level pushers win. So why would they need any advice?

They win because the majority of non-pushers don’t have the skill to punish them and worse yet they don’t put the effort to get better to be able to hit the crap out of the ball to make a pusher uncomfortable. Instead they seek help here crying? Oh tell me what I should do to beat them? It’s like hitting soft second serves forever instead of learning how to use the spin and swing as fast as what you do on a first serve. Mind you most people don’t have the courage to swing fast even on their first serves.

 

[SV10is]

f you're agressive and are hitting slices off short balls, you're not being aggressive anymore. Very low balls require it, but at a decent rec level you should be able to hit topspin forehands off short balls (...).

When a ball is all three of short, low and slow, it's not particularly easy to be aggressive against that kind of ball because you have to move forward, bend down, work the ball above the net while working with a shorter court and you have to generate all the pace. You need a really solid player to hit that reliably for 2 or 3 sets. And, even if you have a 4.5 or 5.0 player out there, they're probably not going to try to murder that ball. They might be able to place it to pull the opponent out wide, or use it as an approach shot to take the net because they have the control required to spin that ball in place with the right amount of force, spin and height to keep it in play. That also doesn't make a slice off a low ball a bad option or even a defensive option. You can approach the net off a slice and you can definitely pull the other player to the net on your terms off a short slice. As the play level goes up, the quality of those slices also need to go up. If you play a slice approach on the ATP tour, they better be on the dead run digging that ball up from their knees or less.

And the Intuitive Tennis comment is about execution. Say you do as I advise more people should do: plan to hit a slice and use it to approach the net if you make contact far enough into NML to cover the net properly. It's a fine idea and it can cover a bit for less than ideal top spin ground strokes, but it's a fine idea that needs you to execute on it. If you can't hit that slice good enough for your level or you can't volley good enough for your level, none of the plan works... Well, duh!

 

[user92626]

Do you guys notice that it's much easier to beat pushers (or at least hang on point a little longer) with a lighter racket?

Say, my usual racket is 330gram, but I use a 310 gr racket to beat pushers.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

A coach once told me that even if you can make tactical adjustments to play against different types of players, you shouldnt change your game style depending on the player, if you are an agressive baseliner you should use what you do best, not suddenly serve and volley a lot or start to push, but yeah

If I'm playing Plan A and I'm losing by a lot, the logical thing to do is switch to Plan B: yes, it's not optimal; yes, it's not my strength. But reality is telling me that continuing to follow Plan A is a losing battle.

Even Federer did this: he was down a set and a break to Coric at Indian Wells one year and was playing terribly, making all sorts of non-Federeresque errors. He completely changed his plan and started hitting conservatively down the middle, taking almost no risk. Coric matched him rather than go for the kill and Fed came back and won. The change was so noticeable that Gilbert asked him about it in the post-match interview. His response was something along the lines of "At that point, I was happy just to stay in the rally. At some point, you're happy with very little."

Coincidentally, my greatest comeback was down a set and 0-3 when I stopped S&Ving and stayed back. I also picked up on the fact that, if I hit short, he tended to hit long by about 5'. It was only after the match that I realized that he wasn't accounting for how far inside the court he was and that's why his normally in shot was going long. I ended up winning the match.

So I'm a firm believer in giving Plan B a chance. I can push and junk and slice if I have to, even though it's not my preference.

 

[FuzzyYellowBalls]

Do you guys notice that it's much easier to beat pushers (or at least hang on point a little longer) with a lighter racket?

Say, my usual racket is 330gram, but I use a 310 gr racket to beat pushers.

I can understand that, especially if you are topspinning it often against the pusher, whipping the short balls into the court.

 

[optic yellow]

Do you guys notice that it's much easier to beat pushers (or at least hang on point a little longer) with a lighter racket?

Say, my usual racket is 330gram, but I use a 310 gr racket to beat pushers.

I can understand that, especially if you are topspinning it often against the pusher, whipping the short balls into the court.

If? This is what you should be doing against the pusher! The most reliable way to beat them is being able to punish short balls for winners even if they are low. People who are not comfortable with this should study the master of the FH for guidance about what is possible:

I don't recommend copying the grip and wrist motions in the last video but it illustrates well the character of the stroke.

 

[Jonesy]

If? This is what you should be doing against the pusher! The most reliable way to beat them is being able to punish short balls for winners even if they are low. People who are not comfortable with this should study the master of the FH for guidance about what is possible:

I don't recommend copying the grip and wrist motions in the last video but it illustrates well the character of the stroke.

The reverse forehand is very useful when you have no time or the ball is ultra low, if not that i'd rather just bend the knees and enter the ball to attack because i like my spin generated with drive.

That being said, Nadal is the perfect example that you can attack with safety by using the spin as the real weapon and it is perfect against "pushers".

 

[optic yellow]

The reverse forehand is very useful when you have no time or the ball is ultra low, if not that i'd rather just bend the knees and enter the ball to attack because i like my spin generated with drive.

That being said, Nadal is the perfect example that you can attack with safety by using the spin as the real weapon and it is perfect against "pushers".

In my experience you can generate spin with drive from the stroke in the third video. You can even generate it with the reverse forehand. You just step into these and drive your hand through contact like you do with any other stroke. I will concede with the latter that when the hand is really reaching overhead it requires greater trust in your control to the point focusing primarily on spin is justifiable. I agree that generally spin with drive is better than just spin; I think what makes Nadal so good at these types of forehands is his touch at balancing deftly between them as required by the individual circumstance of the shot.

 

[Slicehand]

If I'm playing Plan A and I'm losing by a lot, the logical thing to do is switch to Plan B: yes, it's not optimal; yes, it's not my strength. But reality is telling me that continuing to follow Plan A is a losing battle.

Even Federer did this: he was down a set and a break to Coric at Indian Wells one year and was playing terribly, making all sorts of non-Federeresque errors. He completely changed his plan and started hitting conservatively down the middle, taking almost no risk. Coric matched him rather than go for the kill and Fed came back and won. The change was so noticeable that Gilbert asked him about it in the post-match interview. His response was something along the lines of "At that point, I was happy just to stay in the rally. At some point, you're happy with very little."

Coincidentally, my greatest comeback was down a set and 0-3 when I stopped S&Ving and stayed back. I also picked up on the fact that, if I hit short, he tended to hit long by about 5'. It was only after the match that I realized that he wasn't accounting for how far inside the court he was and that's why his normally in shot was going long. I ended up winning the match.

So I'm a firm believer in giving Plan B a chance. I can push and junk and slice if I have to, even though it's not my preference.

Yeah i think im not expresing myself well, adjusting tactics in a match is ok to find solutions, but not to overthink even before a match, like, ok, i heard this guy is a slicer, ill slice back everything, no, you deal with the incoming ball, not with the person or his fame, so you should go into the match being yourself, and THEN, find solutions to the incoming ball, but not overthinking before the match even started because the other guy is known to be a pusher or whatever, you must have a base, not going into a match every time with a different identity because then its easy to get lost in what to do, and maybe your playing style was good enough for that respective match

 

[Slicehand]

When a ball is all three of short, low and slow, it's not particularly easy to be aggressive against that kind of ball because you have to move forward, bend down, work the ball above the net while working with a shorter court and you have to generate all the pace. You need a really solid player to hit that reliably for 2 or 3 sets. And, even if you have a 4.5 or 5.0 player out there, they're probably not going to try to murder that ball. They might be able to place it to pull the opponent out wide, or use it as an approach shot to take the net because they have the control required to spin that ball in place with the right amount of force, spin and height to keep it in play. That also doesn't make a slice off a low ball a bad option or even a defensive option. You can approach the net off a slice and you can definitely pull the other player to the net on your terms off a short slice. As the play level goes up, the quality of those slices also need to go up. If you play a slice approach on the ATP tour, they better be on the dead run digging that ball up from their knees or less.

And the Intuitive Tennis comment is about execution. Say you do as I advise more people should do: plan to hit a slice and use it to approach the net if you make contact far enough into NML to cover the net properly. It's a fine idea and it can cover a bit for less than ideal top spin ground strokes, but it's a fine idea that needs you to execute on it. If you can't hit that slice good enough for your level or you can't volley good enough for your level, none of the plan works... Well, duh!

Yeah of course you are not going to try to overhit that ball, but spin it and place it, the more you are inside the court the less pace you need, because the court opens up, i was refering to that thing that a lot of rec players do, getting a short ball, just slice it to put it back in play, and get back again to continue the rally, if you cant take profit of a short ball somehow, you are doomed to just wait for your opponent to make a mistake

 

[mcs1970]

if you cant take profit of a short ball somehow, you are doomed to just wait for your opponent to make a mistake

You have summarized the core issue of why folks who think they are better than the so called pusher loses to the pusher. They look at their technique and feel they are doing more things correctly but the pusher keeps frustrating them. They don’t look at what they are not doing or in most cases can’t do consistently at this stage of their growth.

As you mentioned if you are not getting easy points off your serve or can’t consistently capitalize on a short ball to seize control of the rally, it does not matter how much better you think you are technically or how you rate yourself. Be humble and realize you too are essentially just a pusher until your offense starts evolving.

 

[Slicehand]

You have summarized the core issue of why folks who think they are better than the so called pusher loses to the pusher. They look at their technique and feel they are doing more things correctly but the pusher keeps frustrating them. They don’t look at what they are not doing or in most cases can’t do consistently at this stage of their growth.

As you mentioned if you are not getting easy points off your serve or can’t consistently capitalize on a short ball to seize control of the rally, it does not matter how much better you think you are technically or how you rate yourself. Be humble and realize you too are essentially just a pusher until your offense starts evolving.

Exactly, you shoudnt care at all about who has better technique, you should care about the incoming ball, not how it is hit

 

[FuzzyYellowBalls]

If? This is what you should be doing against the pusher! The most reliable way to beat them is being able to punish short balls for winners even if they are low. People who are not comfortable with this should study the master of the FH for guidance about what is possible:

I don't recommend copying the grip and wrist motions in the last video but it illustrates well the character of the stroke.

Sometimes I just slice and go to the net and finish it off, takes less energy and is safer, sometimes. But, I do love a forward running forehand, my grip and mechanics though are not Nadal-esque.

 

[LuckyR]

You have summarized the core issue of why folks who think they are better than the so called pusher loses to the pusher. They look at their technique and feel they are doing more things correctly but the pusher keeps frustrating them. They don’t look at what they are not doing or in most cases can’t do consistently at this stage of their growth.

As you mentioned if you are not getting easy points off your serve or can’t consistently capitalize on a short ball to seize control of the rally, it does not matter how much better you think you are technically or how you rate yourself. Be humble and realize you too are essentially just a pusher until your offense starts evolving.

Depends on your definition of pusher. If you mean low intermediate player, maybe. But to me a pusher is an extremely high consistancy player. So high that they are willing (or required) to hit low pace shots to accomplish it.

 

[mcs1970]

Depends on your definition of pusher. If you mean low intermediate player, maybe. But to me a pusher is an extremely high consistancy player. So high that they are willing (or required) to hit low pace shots to accomplish it.

Totally agree. People use different terms for pushers here. Some refer to low level folks as pushers and higher level folks as counter punchers or junk ballers. Some lump all as pushers. In my post I was referring to lower level folks who NYTA has termed as the gatekeepers of 4.0.

As the old joke here goes, a pusher as per talktennis folks is anyone who hits softer than them and frustrates them.

 

[optic yellow]

Sometimes I just slice and go to the net and finish it off, takes less energy and is safer, sometimes. But, I do love a forward running forehand, my grip and mechanics though are not Nadal-esque.

Can you explain this in more detail? What kind of slice and where do you try to send it? This is a completely lacking element in my game. Even if I prefer the running forehands I feel like I should be capable of winning a point in this way too.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Can you explain this in more detail? What kind of slice and where do you try to send it?

It depends on the opponent and situation:
- Some opponents just don't deal well with slice. If so, you can hit it just about anywhere and anyhow and you could pick up some freebies.
- Assuming they can handle slice, going deep, low, and DTM is a great choice because it cuts down their angle choices and hopefully backs them up a bit.
- DTL, assuming I'm not hitting into their wheelhouse
- CC, hopefully to their weaker wing but now I have more ground to cover to reach a neutral position

I try not to float it; I want it to skid a bit.

 

[optic yellow]

It depends on the opponent and situation:
- Some opponents just don't deal well with slice. If so, you can hit it just about anywhere and anyhow and you could pick up some freebies.
- Assuming they can handle slice, going deep, low, and DTM is a great choice because it cuts down their angle choices and hopefully backs them up a bit.
- DTL, assuming I'm not hitting into their wheelhouse
- CC, hopefully to their weaker wing but now I have more ground to cover to reach a neutral position

I try not to float it; I want it to skid a bit.

I find it so difficult to not float slice hit from a short low ball because I am afraid about the launch angle I need for net clearance. It feels like there is essentially no margin for error if I try to put something on it.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

I find it so difficult to not float slice hit from a short low ball because I am afraid about the launch angle I need for net clearance. It feels like there is essentially no margin for error if I try to put something on it.

Interesting: I usually don't worry much about net clearance and things usually work out for me. I think I've worked on this shot enough that I have it dialed in. But the more stress I'm under, the more likely I'll float it. Even then, it's not all bad: he may not be able to capitalize and I at least have changed the pattern.

Of course, he sometimes then clobbers a nice TS FH CC that lands around where the SL meets the alley, in which case I'm screwed.

 

[Slicehand]

Interesting: I usually don't worry much about net clearance and things usually work out for me. I think I've worked on this shot enough that I have it dialed in. But the more stress I'm under, the more likely I'll float it. Even then, it's not all bad: he may not be able to capitalize and I at least have changed the pattern.

Of course, he sometimes then clobbers a nice TS FH CC that lands around where the SL meets the alley, in which case I'm screwed.

Yeah its a shot that you have to get a feel for, to me the big change was when i started taking the racquet higher at the takeback, loading it more, and controlling the angle of the racquet face, as you, i can float it sometimes under presure, but when i got time, it never floats, also a common mistake when you practice the slice is to forget your topspin backhand, if its a very undertrained shot, it might not be detrimental, but if you have a decent backhand you might end up not being as agressive as you could, because your body asks to hit a slice on that side once you trust it, because its so easy on the body compared to accelerating a one handed backhand, i try to find a balance and use it properly, so many difficult things one has to learn to keep improving little by little

 

[Jonesy]

Yeah its a shot that you have to get a feel for, to me the big change was when i started taking the racquet higher at the takeback, loading it more, and controlling the angle of the racquet face, as you, i can float it sometimes under presure, but when i got time, it never floats, also a common mistake when you practice the slice is to forget your topspin backhand, if its a very undertrained shot, it might not be detrimental, but if you have a decent backhand you might end up not being as agressive as you could, because your body asks to hit a slice on that side once you trust it, because its so easy on the body compared to accelerating a one handed backhand, i try to find a balance and use it properly, so many difficult things one has to learn to keep improving little by little

Slice is a sin, it is so easy that it will make you go lazy on the left side, turning you defensive whenever someone hits to your BH. I only do it for the same reason i would on the right side, when you have no time at all for any other shot to save the point.

 

[RudyHuxtable]

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Slice is a sin, it is so easy that it will make you go lazy on the left side, turning you defensive whenever someone hits to your BH. I only do it for the same reason i would on the right side, when you have no time at all for any other shot to save the point.

Dan Evans, Feli Lopez, and Stevie Johnson do/did pretty well. Oh and what was her name...Graf, that's it.

Pros aside, the slice isn't just defensive as I can use the same shot to approach the net, try to hit a nasty, tailing away shot, and a drop shot.

Where it makes me lazy is hitting a slice back CC rather than driving it and letting my opponent take control of the point. But it's more consistent than my TS drive so it's tough to give that up. And my TS drive isn't so great so I'm not gaining that much for the extra risk. It's a weakness, for sure.

 

[Jonesy]

Dan Evans, Feli Lopez, and Stevie Johnson do/did pretty well. Oh and what was her name...Graf, that's it.

Pros aside, the slice isn't just defensive as I can use the same shot to approach the net, try to hit a nasty, tailing away shot, and a drop shot.

Where it makes me lazy is hitting a slice back CC rather than driving it and letting my opponent take control of the point. But it's more consistent than my TS drive so it's tough to give that up. And my TS drive isn't so great so I'm not gaining that much for the extra risk. It's a weakness, for sure.

I see your point, it just isn't for me then. In fact it only hindered my progress for years, reverting my style to giving neutral balls on that side and end up making opportunities for my adversaries to attack when i could be the one doing it.

These days i have a great TS BH as weapon, some might even say it is better than my FH, and as i have no weaker side other players have no clue where to hit to, also i don't waste time plus energy running around to hit a FH to attack.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

I see your point, it just isn't for me then. In fact it only hindered my progress for years, reverting my style to giving neutral balls on that side and end up making opportunities for my adversaries to attack when i could be the one doing it.

These days i have a great TS BH as weapon, some might even say it it is better than my FH, and as i have no weaker side other players have no clue where to hit to and i don't waste time and energy running around to hit a FH to attack.

Props to you, then! I'm not going to get there any time soon and I believe I'd actually achieve better results if I sliced more, simply to cut down on the UEs.

What's your NTRP/UTR? I'm 4.5/7.5.

 

[FuzzyYellowBalls]

Can you explain this in more detail? What kind of slice and where do you try to send it? This is a completely lacking element in my game. Even if I prefer the running forehands I feel like I should be capable of winning a point in this way too.

The most important part is the cheat code....lefty slice. Then I'd describe it as a penetrating slice near the baseline, usually to the backhand side. Get a ball machine or a partner, go slice only for an hour, then do it again until it becomes something you can do.

It depends on the opponent and situation:
- Some opponents just don't deal well with slice. If so, you can hit it just about anywhere and anyhow and you could pick up some freebies.
- Assuming they can handle slice, going deep, low, and DTM is a great choice because it cuts down their angle choices and hopefully backs them up a bit.
- DTL, assuming I'm not hitting into their wheelhouse
- CC, hopefully to their weaker wing but now I have more ground to cover to reach a neutral position

I try not to float it; I want it to skid a bit.

Yes

I find it so difficult to not float slice hit from a short low ball because I am afraid about the launch angle I need for net clearance. It feels like there is essentially no margin for error if I try to put something on it.

This ability is the final stage of developing your slice, the hardest version of the slice. You have to be precise and it's not easy. The slice should help the ball slow down a little and land in, you just need to work on judging the amount of power to put on the ball to make it stay in. Your launch angle will lower as you become better at this judgment.

 

[FuzzyYellowBalls]

Slice is a sin, it is so easy that it will make you go lazy on the left side, turning you defensive whenever someone hits to your BH. I only do it for the same reason i would on the right side, when you have no time at all for any other shot to save the point.

There's a secret I'll tell you, the slice is a great annoyer of right handed modern forehand players, if you're a lefty like me. My best stroke is probably my topspin backhand and it's effortless, but some players "like" power and predictable trajectories and the slice befuddles them more than a great topspin BH. You'd be surprised how many younger players I've played struggle with a lefty slice that lands close to their feet and spins into their hip while they try to perfectly time their western grip forehand. I've had players get frustrated enough with variety like that to verbally tell me in a match they can't tell what I am going to hit them next and their rhythm is off.

 

[Jonesy]

Props to you, then! I'm not going to get there any time soon and I believe I'd actually achieve better results if I sliced more, simply to cut down on the UEs.

What's your NTRP/UTR? I'm 4.5/7.5.

In my country we don't use those systems to measure level. But considering that a lot of players i find at my level here are coaches, after watching videos of players on this forum plus reading NTRP description of levels i can adapt and say that i'm at least 5.0.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

In my country we don't use those systems to measure level. But considering that a lot of players i find at my level here are coaches, after watching videos of players on this forum plus reading NTRP description of levels i can adapt and say that i'm at least 5.0.

That would have been my guess based on your description.

 

[optic yellow]

The most important part is the cheat code....lefty slice. Then I'd describe it as a penetrating slice near the baseline, usually to the backhand side. Get a ball machine or a partner, go slice only for an hour, then do it again until it becomes something you can do.

You mean literally lefty FH slice?

Edit: Oh you're lefty I see. That is unfair!

This ability is the final stage of developing your slice, the hardest version of the slice. You have to be precise and it's not easy. The slice should help the ball slow down a little and land in, you just need to work on judging the amount of power to put on the ball to make it stay in. Your launch angle will lower as you become better at this judgment.

Well knowing it is supposed to be hard makes it better. I of course see the power of the shot once you are able to get this judgement right consistently. Both that and the topspin drive are basically unreturnable if hit correctly but they send different messages to your opponent.

 

[Jonesy]

There's a secret I'll tell you, the slice is a great annoyer of right handed modern forehand players, if you're a lefty like me. My best stroke is probably my topspin backhand and it's effortless, but some players "like" power and predictable trajectories and the slice befuddles them more than a great topspin BH. You'd be surprised how many younger players I've played struggle with a lefty slice that lands close to their feet and spins into their hip while they try to perfectly time their western grip forehand. I've had players get frustrated enough with variety like that to verbally tell me in a match they can't tell what I am going to hit them next and their rhythm is off.

It makes sense, i'm one of the those modern FH players with extreme grips, because of that my old coach wired me to break those patterns with footwork and even more topspin to attack the slice. Some players here are even better with the reverse forehand, but i don't like it.

Perhaps that is the reason i'm so insecure about using the slice myself as most good players here also attack the slice like that.

 

[FuzzyYellowBalls]

It makes sense, i'm one of the those modern FH players with extreme grips, because of that my old coach wired me to break those patterns with footwork and even more topspin to attack the slice. Some players here are even better with the reverse forehand, but i don't like it.

Perhaps that is the reason i'm so insecure about using the slice myself as most good players here also attack the slice like that.

Yes, it's certainly not a weapon against everyone, but it's easy to test early and find out.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Perhaps that is the reason i'm so insecure about using the slice myself as most good players here also attack the slice like that.

I'm perfectly secure slicing against other 4.5s but when I play an upper 4.5 or higher, it gets attacked. Then again, so would my TS.

 

[optic yellow]

I'm perfectly secure slicing against other 4.5s but when I play an upper 4.5 or higher, it gets attacked. Then again, so would my TS.

Those must be the matches where you really lean on the S&V.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Those must be the matches where you really lean on the S&V.

Yeah, if I'm going to lose I may as well lose playing my preferred style.

 

[optic yellow]

Yeah, if I'm going to lose I may as well lose playing my preferred style.

That is not exactly what I was thinking but thanks for the laugh

 

[jered]

I got beat by a pusher last night. Nearly every game went to a tiebreak. If I didn't finish the point within 3 hits or execute a perfectly constructed point he would grind me out until I missed. He was fast, pretty even on both wings, never took a risk, could return everything (heavy top, slice, lobs) and kept it low with no spin and a moderate pace. The only thing that got him were my serves which is my biggest strength. A lot of the tactics mentioned in this thread I used but wasn't consistent in execution. What worked the best was pulling him deep and short. Side to side he was too fast. The short had to be very good though or I got put in trouble.

I don't have the consistency yet to beat someone like that easily so it simply comes down to working on that. It's a good challenge.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

I got beat by a pusher last night. Nearly every game went to a tiebreak. If I didn't finish the point within 3 hits or execute a perfectly constructed point he would grind me out until I missed. He was fast, pretty even on both wings, never took a risk, could return everything (heavy top, slice, lobs) and kept it low with no spin and a moderate pace. The only thing that got him were my serves which is my biggest strength. A lot of the tactics mentioned in this thread I used but wasn't consistent in execution. What worked the best was pulling him deep and short. Side to side he was too fast. The short had to be very good though or I got put in trouble.

I don't have the consistency yet to beat someone like that easily so it simply comes down to working on that. It's a good challenge.

How about the following:

- S&V [you mentioned your serve giving him trouble but you didn't mention whether you followed it in]
- C&C [how were his passing shots/lobs?]
- Delayed approach, especially after a higher-bouncing shot

You mentioned if the short ball wasn't very good you got put in trouble. By this, I assume you mean he attacked? That's not your typical pusher: that person will hit a neutral ball back to the fat part of the court and retreat to the BL.

 

[jered]

How about the following:

- S&V [you mentioned your serve giving him trouble but you didn't mention whether you followed it in]
- C&C [how were his passing shots/lobs?]
- Delayed approach, especially after a higher-bouncing shot

You mentioned if the short ball wasn't very good you got put in trouble. By this, I assume you mean he attacked? That's not your typical pusher: that person will hit a neutral ball back to the fat part of the court and retreat to the BL.

Thanks for thoughts! S&V was working for me decently and he had good lobs but it really came down to my lack of consistent execution. I wasn't pulling the trigger to follow good shots in and take the net to be honest. Something else I'm working on.

Interested in the delayed approach off a high bounce? Like if I lob or is it when I do a heavy top to the backhand for instance? I follow those in when I feel confident but should do it more. I'm unsure what you mean by delay.

Edit: regarding short balls. If I did a poor one and he was there he was good at gently pushing it to where I wasn't making me scramble.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Interested in the delayed approach off a high bounce? Like if I lob or is it when I do a heavy top to the backhand for instance? I follow those in when I feel confident but should do it more. I'm unsure what you mean by delay.

A non-delayed approach would be S&V: you've already decided to come to the net before you hit the ball.

A delayed approach is any shot where you wait to see how well you hit it or how difficult your opponent's shot will be before deciding to move forward. You see pros do this all of the time: A & B are in a CC FH rally and A decides to change directions and flatten it out DTL. He sees that B will be in a defensive position so A moves forward, ready to attack.

Another example is what I initially proposed: you hit a high bouncer, wait until the ball has bounced up past their head [now they may not see you in their peripheral field], and move forward. By the time they realize you're at the net, they've already started their swing and most likely it's not going to be a passing shot because they didn't know you were going to be at the net.

Of course, this only works so many times before the opponent gets wise. But then you can fake coming in and perhaps force them into hitting a more aggressive shot than they would have otherwise. All sorts of possibilities.

If he takes in on the rise, this tactic won't work.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Thanks for thoughts! S&V was working for me decently and he had good lobs but it really came down to my lack of consistent execution. I wasn't pulling the trigger to follow good shots in and take the net to be honest. Something else I'm working on.

Interested in the delayed approach off a high bounce? Like if I lob or is it when I do a heavy top to the backhand for instance? I follow those in when I feel confident but should do it more. I'm unsure what you mean by delay.

Edit: regarding short balls. If I did a poor one and he was there he was good at gently pushing it to where I wasn't making me scramble.

Remember, the point of attacking the net is to take the pusher out of his comfort zone, even if that makes you more uncomfortable also.

What is the pusher's CZ? Long rallies from the BL hitting high % shots and waiting for opponent errors.

By coming to the net, you're forcing the issue: pass me, lob me, make me hit a difficult volley; otherwise, I'm attacking. I think most pushers want to avoid this scenario because it takes away their biggest advantage: hitting safely into the fat part of the court. Now if they try that, you're waiting at the net to put that shot away, something you'd have less success doing if you were behind the BL.

So even if you're not a great net player [including OHs], it still is worth trying this strategy; otherwise, you are playing into their strength.

 

[jered]

Ok, yeah, that makes sense. The delayed thing I think I do somewhat naturally but incorporating it more intentionally is probably good. I get your point about pulling him out of his comfort zone, I think I just lacked confidence knowing he rarely missed. I have great OHs, it's the low volleys I struggle with. I'll definitely give a strong S&V strategy a go next time I play a pusher.

I definitely lost because he was better. My shots probably looked prettier and I definitely hit harder but that doesn't matter if I can't get better at execution and consistency.

Thanks for the advice.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Ok, yeah, that makes sense. The delayed thing I think I do somewhat naturally but incorporating it more intentionally is probably good. I get your point about pulling him out of his comfort zone, I think I just lacked confidence knowing he rarely missed.

But did he rarely miss and then pass you a lot or did he rarely miss but he gave you more opportunities to attack? if the former, I can see why you were hesitant. If the latter, I'd hang in there and see how things turn out, at least for a set.

I have great OHs, it's the low volleys I struggle with. I'll definitely give a strong S&V strategy a go next time I play a pusher.

Were you struggling to just get the low volleys in or were you perhaps trying to do too much with them? Again, this plays into my question above: how pressured were you to hit a winner/forcing shot? If you're confident he's not going to pass you often, you have the luxury of just getting the volley back deep and resetting the point. Oftentimes, people at the net panic and jump at any chance to hit a winner, even if it's from a very defensive position. Part of being a good net player is being calm enough to hit a neutral volley and just wait to see what the opponent does; this is too passive for some but I find it works for me, at least against some opponents.

Don't forget about C&C also: doing both S&V and C&C means he will never get into his preferred rhythm. This alone will be good for a few games.

I definitely lost because he was better. My shots probably looked prettier and I definitely hit harder but that doesn't matter if I can't get better at execution and consistency.

Thanks for the advice.

I think you've got enough insight into your strengths and weaknesses. All the best for the next match!

 

[jered]

Oftentimes, people at the net panic and jump at any chance to hit a winner, even if it's from a very defensive position. Part of being a good net player is being calm enough to hit a neutral volley and just wait to see what the opponent does

Nailed it. I'm impatient.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Nailed it. I'm impatient.

Interestingly, I'm more patient at the net than at the BL.

 

[Morch Us]

when you play this so called "pusher".... I think just by evaluating the below 5 question/answers, you can come up with a pretty good plan. If the plan is not good enough, well... then you would at least know what skill you can sharpen more to be more effective next time.

1. How many free points you get of your first serve? How many of your second serves were attacked?
2. How many of your aggressive returns effectively directly resulted in you winning the point? How many of your extreme concervative returns where attacked and finished?
3. What does the pusher do if you allow him to be in an aggressive court position? Is he more vulnerable to your offense from this court position/geometry ?
4. What does the pusher do if you come to an aggressive court position? Are you more vulnerable to the pusher defense from this court postion/geometry ?
5. Are you ready for a long battle, or would you rather take your chance, and go home fast win or lose? (mentally and physically)

 

[optic yellow]

Dan Evans, Feli Lopez, and Stevie Johnson do/did pretty well. Oh and what was her name...Graf, that's it.

Pros aside, the slice isn't just defensive as I can use the same shot to approach the net, try to hit a nasty, tailing away shot, and a drop shot.

Where it makes me lazy is hitting a slice back CC rather than driving it and letting my opponent take control of the point. But it's more consistent than my TS drive so it's tough to give that up. And my TS drive isn't so great so I'm not gaining that much for the extra risk. It's a weakness, for sure.

The Sinner-Alcaraz point you shared in the other thread is actually a perfect example of this imo.

(for those who didn't see)