Gamma 6004 with Wise

[Chappy]

I took the plunge and bought a Gamma 6004 with a Wise tension head. The previous owner mounted it without the Diablo using the Gamma adapter. This eliminated the 360 rotation. I called David (I think that's right) at Wise and he said that if I mount it without the adapter and use the Diablo then it puts too much down force on the racquet and they don't recommend it. It looks like I need to lower it about an inch and a half from its current location to clear the handle. I can make a shorter adapter out of a chunk of aluminum.
Have any of you modified your 6004s?

 

[Irvin]

There is no downward force on the 6004 with the adapter as the string pull is at string bed level, except in the throat pull. Then the force depends on whether you run the string over or under the frame. There is a much greater downward force on the 6004 if you remove the adapter. You can install the Diablo and take the adapter off. Maybe I'm not sure what David is talking about but what your saying doesn't make sense.

EDIT: Except for adding the Wise I would not modify the 6004.

 

[struggle]

The folks at Wise told me it was fine to use it without the gamma adapter. That's the way i roll.

Clearly, there is a bit of an angle running out of the racket to the diablo/gripper.

 

[Chappy]

@Irvin, I am asking how many people run the Wise and Diablo without the adapter and if they have any issues. I'm sorry I wasn't as clear as I should have been.

@struggle, Thank you. My old stringer had 360 rotation and there was an angle when pulling tension. I'm sure the perfectly level pull that I have now is better tension wise but the 360 rotation is a nice feature.

 

[Irvin]

@Irvin, I am asking how many people run the Wise and Diablo without the adapter and if they have any issues. I'm sorry I wasn't as clear as I should have been.

Using the Wise with a Diablo on a Gamma machine will not present any problems and you will have 360 rotation. If you use the Diablo you don't need the adapter. I was confused why David told you what he did.

 

[jim e]

Using the Wise with a Diablo on a Gamma machine will not present any problems and you will have 360 rotation. If you use the Diablo you don't need the adapter. I was confused why David told you what he did.

Irvin; I do not have this machine, and I never used this specific machine, but...
What if you are at the end of a string section, like end mains, or last cross string and there is not enough string to wrap around diablo and you need to pull without the diablo, would not the angle be too steep?
On a machine like your Star5 or my machine there is no issue if the diablo is used or not, but a gamma crank with wise unit without adapter and not using diablo, I would imagine the angle would be more severe.

 

[Chappy]

I looked it up. The gentlemans name is Dan Martinez. I thought most people were running with the Diablo and no adapter.

@jim e, I could be wrong but I think the grippers were damaging the string because of the angle and no Diablo. In the situation you are describing would it matter on the tail end of the string? Hopefully that section would be cut off after you tie your knot.

 

[sp1derman]

I have the Gamma Progression 602 with fixed clamps. I'm considering buying the wise. Will I still have 360 degree rotation? Anyone else using this setup and could post a picture? (Sorry to hijack)

 

[jim e]

I looked it up. The gentlemans name is Dan Martinez. I thought most people were running with the Diablo and no adapter.

@jim e, I could be wrong but I think the grippers were damaging the string because of the angle and no Diablo. In the situation you are describing would it matter on the tail end of the string? Hopefully that section would be cut off after you tie your knot.

If it was an end main string, that pull is on an angle with the grommet with any machine but also there would seem to be an extra angle downwards against the grommet as well, so could this be bad for wise as well as string as wise users commented that angled pulls are bad for machine. Could be that the top of diablo would still keep string upwards enough even if not wrapped around it, so maybe no issue. I never used this machine before so someone like Irvin that had this exact set up at one time may be better to answer.

 

[Irvin]

Irvin; I do not have this machine, and I never used this specific machine, but...
What if you are at the end of a string section, like end mains, or last cross string and there is not enough string to wrap around diablo and you need to pull without the diablo, would not the angle be too steep?
On a machine like your Star5 or my machine there is no issue if the diablo is used or not, but a gamma crank with wise unit without adapter and not using diablo, I would imagine the angle would be more severe.

Good question your right and in that case I would use a bridge.

 

[Irvin]

I have the Gamma Progression 602 with fixed clamps. I'm considering buying the wise. Will I still have 360 degree rotation? Anyone else using this setup and could post a picture? (Sorry to hijack)

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/gamma-602fc-with-a-wise-2086-tension-head.54289/

 

[Irvin]

I looked it up. The gentlemans name is Dan Martinez. I thought most people were running with the Diablo and no adapter.

@jim e, I could be wrong but I think the grippers were damaging the string because of the angle and no Diablo. In the situation you are describing would it matter on the tail end of the string? Hopefully that section would be cut off after you tie your knot.

Not quite. The Wise was initially damaging the string on Gamma machines because the string was being pulled from 2" below the string bed. The cause he string to be pulled up on the front dye of the gripper and caused damage. Herb Wise tried to get another guy's Diablo design but the guy wanted too much so Herb made the Gamma adapter which raised the Wise 2" but blocked 360 rotation. So Herb made a couple version of what he called a Diablo. The initial versions were string guides and had problems. Herb finally came up with a true Diablo. Use either the adapter or the Diablo but not both. Diablo is better.

If it was an end main string, that pull is on an angle with the grommet with any machine but also there would seem to be an extra angle downwards against the grommet as well, so could this be bad for wise as well as string as wise users commented that angled pulls are bad for machine. Could be that the top of diablo would still keep string upwards enough even if not wrapped around it, so maybe no issue. I never used this machine before so someone like Irvin that had this exact set up at one time may be better to answer.

Gamma machines have a greater drop that any other machine. @Gamma Tech correct m if I'm wrong but I think the idea behind that is to get a consistent tension on the string from the center to outside strings.

When pulling the outer strings the is no angle bend (to the side) at the Diablo so there are no issues. Using a break with the Wise and sooner or later you will know why that a bad idea.

The only issue I've heard of is when using a NEOS (and other machines) that does not have 360 rotation with or without a Diablo. If you install the Wise so the Diablo is too close to the angle of the string bend at the Diablo is too sharp. That side angle bend tries to pull the gripper assembly sideways which will put a twisting torque force on the threaded rod the gripper assembly rides on. There is a nylon bushing connecting the threaded Rod to the motor. When you hear the knocking that's the bushings between he Rod and motor slipping. Stop or pay the consequences.

There are two option to stop the knocking. 1) Take the Diablo off which decreases the angle and move the Wise farther out. 2) Move the Wise farther out decreasing the angle.

 

[Chappy]

@Irvin thanks for the info. When you had your 6004 where you running the Diablo without the adapter? What was your setup?

 

[Irvin]

I had the adapter without the Diablo because initially the Diablo was not available. If I had my choice I would choose the diablo but no need for both, as a matter of fact if you had a Diablo and the Adapter the Gamma 6004 would have the same possible issue the NEOSs have.

 

[struggle]

I will say my wise makes an odd sound every now and then when returning to ready position,
after tension is released. I don't know that the no adapter is an issue, it really seems to work
fine. (Also, I saved the email i got saying it was fine without the adapter.... .

I pulled tension with the calibrator and it was within a pound, so i just roll as normal.

edit: can't find the email as of now. maybe i talked to him on the phone that time.

 

[Irvin]

@struggle because the Wise comes with a Diablo now I can't see any reason to buy the Gamma Adapter.

 

[Chappy]

I was ready to buy the Diablo and remove the adapter until I spoke with Dan at Wise and he told me they didn't recommend doing that because of frame deformation. I didn't get the impression that the tension head with the Diablo was going to be damaged. More the racquet. Every 360 rotation machine by nature will pull down on the racquet some. I am still leaning towards buying the Diablo and removing the adapter. I was hoping someone out there had tried it and cracked a frame. That way I would forget about removing the adapter and buying the Diablo.

 

[sp1derman]

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/gamma-602fc-with-a-wise-2086-tension-head.54289/

Thanks for the pics. I guess if I were to buy one I'd forgo the gamma adapter because of the Diablo. Still not sure; would I retain 360 rotation?

 

[Irvin]

In the link I provided See post #8 - yes you will have full 360 but there is a modification rich s had to do

 

[sp1derman]

Thanks Irv. Would I still have to do all that modding they did back in 2005? I guess I thought that's what the gamma adapter they sell was for.

 

[Irvin]

Thanks Irv. Would I still have to do all that modding they did back in 2005? I guess I thought that's what the gamma adapter they sell was for.

There are two adapters, a drop weight adapter and a lockout adapter. The Gamma Adapter is for lockout machines and won't work on a drop weight and vice-a-versa. The Gamma Adapter (for lockouts) is only used for Gamma machines because the arm for the tensioner sits much lower on a Gamma than on other lockout machines.
http://www.tennis-warehouse.com/sea...&opt_page=1&opt_sort=alphaAtoZ&opt_perpage=20

 

[LttlElvis]

For the record:

This is a DIABLO =

And this is a DIABOLO =

 

[Irvin]

For the record according to Wise this is a Diablo. I'm pretty sure you the picture you have came from their site it just that the name of the apparatus and price has been omitted.
http://s422.photobucket.com/user/Irvin44_2008/media/Diablo_zpsnsv3tgnz.jpg.html
If you have an issue with what Every stringing machine manufacturer (Alpha, Wise, Babolat, SAM, Wilson, Tecnifibre, and maybe more) of that apparatus calls it (Diablo) take it up with them.

EDIT: Do you think this is the only word that has more than one meaning?

 

[Irvin]

Also for the record a diabolo spins and here is what it looks like
http://www.iels.org/assets/19/A29419_l.1.jpg
To my knowledge a Diablo on a stringer does not spin. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Rabbit]

For the record:

This is a DIABLO =

And this is a DIABOLO =

I tried the same path you are. I agree, there is a distinct difference between the two. A diabolo is the proper term and it is a shape, not a function. Diablo is the Spanish word for devil, plain and simple.
The name of the piece on the tension head is named such because of its shape. There are some stringing machine manufacturers which refer, properly, to the "thing" as a diabolo.

 

[LttlElvis]

For the record:

This is a DIABLO =

And this is a DIABOLO = http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0457/3053/products/Diablo_large.jpg?v=1398372990

 

[LttlElvis]

For the record according to Wise this is a Diablo.

EDIT: Do you think this is the only word that has more than one meaning?

No need to be condescending Irv. Yes, I understand words can have multiple meanings. I'm not quite as stupid as I look. And I just happen to find the diablo pic funny.

 

[Irvin]

There are some stringing machine manufacturers which refer, properly, to the "thing" as a diabolo.

Name one

 

[Chappy]

I am aware of the titling difference as well. That is why I went to the Wise site to confirm spelling before I posted. It's a funny thing.

 

[struggle]

They should have gone with wijit.

 

[Rabbit]

Name one

Well here's one, near and dear to my heart:

http://**********.com/pages/the-diablo

Here's the text from it:

The Diabolo

The Diabolo ( Diablo), always attaches to the side of the gripper away from the operator. Remove two screws from the gripper (1 and 3) or (2 and 4). Replace them with the longer screws and nuts provided. The bobbin faces toward you just in front of the gripper. Wrap string from the racket once clockwise around the bobbin and then into the gripper.

Grand Slam Stringers also recognizes:

https://gssalliance.com/category/stringing-machines-2/

It's the 2nd article down, here's the headline in case you get confused:

The Diabolo; it’s origin and purpose

Just what is a diabolo and why is it there? The reality is that there is nothing too magical about the Diabolo (often misspelled diablo). The tendency may be to over analyze things, but the origins are quite simple and humble. It is its evolution that has become greatly romanticized. The Diabolo’s life began somewhat as [see more]

Why they even mention it's often misspelled. I have seen more, but these were the easiest references to find.

So, in summary, there are also words that are misused such as the Spanish word for devil, Diablo. The proper name for the device on a stringing machine is Diabolo. The similarity between the two resulted in the misuse of diablo. Any picture of a diabolo will reveal that it is the device used to wind string around on a stringing machine.

 

[LttlElvis]

Thanks Rabbit. .......and that devil pic still cracks me up.

 

[sp1derman]

Entertaining and informative from many angles, not angels, gentlemen. A pleasure to read!

 

[Rabbit]

Thanks Rabbit. .......and that devil pic still cracks me up.

Yeah me too! Looks like he string though, don't it?

 

[Chappy]

Update:

I bought the Diablo from Wise. I drilled new holes in the Gamma adapter so I could drop the tensioner head down. I have clearance now for 360 rotation but the tension head just clears the butt cap on a 5/8 grip when it pulls tension.

 

[Irvin]

Update:

I bought the Diablo from Wise. I drilled new holes in the Gamma adapter so I could drop the tensioner head down. I have clearance now for 360 rotation but the tension head just clears the butt cap on a 5/8 grip when it pulls tension...

Take the adapter off you don't need it and the Diablo.

 

[Chappy]

I know lots of people use the adapter or the Diablo. You don't want both in stock form.

When I added the Diablo and removed the adapter the Diablo was nearly 2" below the gromets. Lots of people run it that way but since the previous owner had already bought the adapter I decided to try to decrease that 2" gap. Right now I have about 3/4" from the Diablo to the gromet.

Just because it's easier to not modify the bracket, or not use it at all, why would you want to pull down so much? @Irvin on your Star 5 how low is your nose cone compared to your gromets/string bed?

 

[Irvin]

Just because it's easier to not modify the bracket, or not use it at all, why would you want to pull down so much?

If your tensioner is 2" below the string bed you will have a constant angle and therefore more constant angle from the outer to center strings. When pulling on the center strings you're pulling from 2" below the racket and when you're pulling the outer strings you're pulling from 2" to the side (and down) maintaining a more constant angle.

@Irvin on your Star 5 how low is your nose cone compared to your gromets/string bed?

Low enough and close in enough so he tensioner never hits the butt cap no matter how large it is. But because it is so high the string sometimes bends around around the throat.

Not sure which is best but I'd like to see the string going straight from the grommet to the Diablo.

EDIT: There's always the option of calling Gamma and talking to John (@Gamma Tech) to see what he thinks is best. John is a Mechanical Engineer and very familiar with your machine and the Wise. I'm sure he'd be more than happy to give you his opinion. If you do let us know what he says.

 

[Chappy]

I spoke with John. He's a super nice guy. If he wants to chime in that would be great. He told me that reducing the downward angle is a good thing. It reduces friction in the grommet and reduces the chance of a damaged grommet digging into the string. He said that if the tension head was moved further back it would also reduce the downward angle.

 

[Shroud]

weird, I use them both and the tension head/ diabolo (often misspelled as diablo) is pretty much at the same level as the grommet. Maybe a tad bit lower but its not more than a 1/4". Without the adapter wouldnt the downward angle be much more?

 

[Irvin]

@Shroud you, John (@Gamma Tech,) and @Chappy are all saying the same thing. Lower the tensioner the greater the angle and friction.

 

[Shroud]

@Shroud you, John (@Gamma Tech,) and @Chappy are all saying the same thing. Lower the tensioner the greater the angle and friction.

so why no diabolo use with the adapter?

 

[Irvin]

so why no diabolo use with the adapter?

why add a $40 option (diablo) when you don't need it?

EDIT: Any more the Wise comes with a Diablo, except for reducing the downward angle on the string why purchase an adapter and then go through the process of modifying it? Of course if it came with both, why not if you can? No matter what you're still going to have a side angle bend on the four corners and the only way to get rid of that is to have a movable turntable pivot. And most grommet failures occur because of knots and the bend angles. How often do you need to tube grommet in the center mains and crosses?

 

[Rabbit]

I would opt for a diabolo simply because it guarantees the string comes into the gripper jaws at a consistent angle. It is my understanding that it also lessens the force required by the gripper on the string. Since the Wise is an add on product, the diabolo guarantees that the string going into the gripper is at a proper and consistent angle regardless of the angle from the turntable. Better safe than sorry.

 

[Chappy]

Instead of buying the adapter I would have just got a piece of scrap aluminum and drilled the holes. It would be far cheaper. My machine already had the adapter so I just modified it. Having the 360 rotation back is so nice!

I agree on the Diablo. You don't have to worry about gripper slipping or damaging the string as much with the Diablo.

The Diablo was $25 shipped from Wise.

 

[sp1derman]

weird, I use them both and the tension head/ diabolo (often misspelled as diablo) is pretty much at the same level as the grommet. Maybe a tad bit lower but its not more than a 1/4". Without the adapter wouldnt the downward angle be much more?

@ Shroud, do you have a gamma progression 602FC? I am planning to install my wise this weekend and am curious about 360 rotation with the adapter and diablo/olo. Did you have to drill new holes in the machine base or into your drop weight adapter? I like the idea of the tension head being 1/4" below grommets. I'd love to hear anyone's experience with a similar set up. TY!

 

[Shroud]

@ Shroud, do you have a gamma progression 602FC? I am planning to install my wise this weekend and am curious about 360 rotation with the adapter and diablo/olo. Did you have to drill new holes in the machine base or into your drop weight adapter? I like the idea of the tension head being 1/4" below grommets. I'd love to hear anyone's experience with a similar set up. TY!

No, I have the 6004 and just put on the Wise with the gamma adapter. I dont have 360 degrees of rotation....

 

[sp1derman]

No, I have the 6004 and just put on the Wise with the gamma adapter. I dont have 360 degrees of rotation....

Thanks Shroud! I'll post my experience after the weekend.

 

[Irvin]

@ Shroud, do you have a gamma progression 602FC? I am planning to install my wise this weekend and am curious about 360 rotation with the adapter and diablo/olo. Did you have to drill new holes in the machine base or into your drop weight adapter? I like the idea of the tension head being 1/4" below grommets. I'd love to hear anyone's experience with a similar set up. TY!

If you're tensionhead pulls from 1/4" below grommets you will not have 360 rotation.

 

[sp1derman]

If you're tensionhead pulls from 1/4" below grommets you will not have 360 rotation.

Good point Irv. I guess all I can do is get started this weekend and see how things end up. 360 rotation isn't a necessity but it's all i know!