Greater player: Safin or Kafelnikov?
- Thread starter 6august
- Start date
Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
Safin. The 5 Masters to 0 kinda seals the deal for me.
Nadalgaenger
G.O.A.T.
Poll?
answer: Safin (by a mile)
answer: Safin (by a mile)
Mainad
Bionic Poster
I guess it has to be Safin with his extra Slam final, 5 Masters and more weeks at #1.
Strange fact: Kafelnikov is the only multiple Slam champion never to win a Masters title (since the Masters series began in 1990).
On the other hand: Kafelnikov is 1 of 4 multiple male Slam champions to win an Olympic singles gold medal (along with Agassi, Nadal and Murray).
Strange fact: Kafelnikov is the only multiple Slam champion never to win a Masters title (since the Masters series began in 1990).
On the other hand: Kafelnikov is 1 of 4 multiple male Slam champions to win an Olympic singles gold medal (along with Agassi, Nadal and Murray).
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NatF
Bionic Poster
I think Kafelnikov ascended to word no.1 by losing something like 7 matches in a row.
Late 90's so much stronger than the early 00's
beast of mallorca
G.O.A.T.
Where's your poll ?
Both are equal..Kafelnikovs gold medal and double prowess cancels out Safins Masters prowess..
Kafelnikov was a poor manager of his career. Often,playing number of useless events ,playing just large volume of matches thereby not really targeting the big events.Major reason why he couldn't win masters.He perhaps was just concerned about Money.
Also he underperformed in many of the big matches. Lost count of times,he was ahead in his matches against Kuerton and eventually losing out.
Not to mention his matches against Sampras and Agassi.
Safin is really overhyped in forums mainly coz of his performance against peak fed just like Wawarinka is overhyped coz of his performance against peak Novak..His peak,if ever there was any,was too short lived to be even considered.Even I was a mad Safin fan boy in my teenage but that doesn't mean much..
Kafelnikov is criminally underated..He had an all round game.His game was artistic too..His positioning of forehand was a joy to watch..What did he lack?
A big win at a big stage against Sampras or Agassi at a non Clay event..A bit myopic view,
Kafelnikov was a poor manager of his career. Often,playing number of useless events ,playing just large volume of matches thereby not really targeting the big events.Major reason why he couldn't win masters.He perhaps was just concerned about Money.
Also he underperformed in many of the big matches. Lost count of times,he was ahead in his matches against Kuerton and eventually losing out.
Not to mention his matches against Sampras and Agassi.
Safin is really overhyped in forums mainly coz of his performance against peak fed just like Wawarinka is overhyped coz of his performance against peak Novak..His peak,if ever there was any,was too short lived to be even considered.Even I was a mad Safin fan boy in my teenage but that doesn't mean much..
Kafelnikov is criminally underated..He had an all round game.His game was artistic too..His positioning of forehand was a joy to watch..What did he lack?
A big win at a big stage against Sampras or Agassi at a non Clay event..A bit myopic view,
ibbi
G.O.A.T.
It's an interesting question. Kafelnikov was far more successful across all 4 surfaces, stuck around as a force of some degree a little longer, and while I think their top 10 wins are of comparable number, with Kafelnikov having actually more wins over top 3 players, and number 1's in particular, Safin's fewer are far more impressive.
He's clearly to me the greater player, the better big match guy, even if he lacks his fellow Russki's more proven versatility and longevity.
He's clearly to me the greater player, the better big match guy, even if he lacks his fellow Russki's more proven versatility and longevity.
Sysyphus
Talk Tennis Guru
my bad.
further research has confirmed that Safin actually edges out Kafelnikov as #1 in the goat race.
The watermark is a bit unfortunate, but I think the gist is still clear.
further research has confirmed that Safin actually edges out Kafelnikov as #1 in the goat race.
The watermark is a bit unfortunate, but I think the gist is still clear.
Nadal is now No. 2 or 3 and Sampras is No. 3 or 4.
This is the old chart:
Red Rick
Bionic Poster
90's are weird.Late 90's so much stronger than the early 00's
Was there weak era talk when Sampras was closing in on the Slam record?
D
Deleted member 22147
Guest
Safin had half of 1998, 1999, 2000, 2002, 2004 and about 2 months of health in 2005. The rest of the time he was injured. When he came back from knee injury in 2006, he was practically a different player.
Look at the 2003 Australian Open, for example. Safin was due to face Schuettler and had to pull out. The German makes the final.
Safin is leagues about Kafelnikov. Plus, the latter won 0 Masters Series titles and Safin won 5. Safin won the Davis Cup twice, Kafelnikov once. Safin won his slams in a certain way, and so did Kafelnikov.
It's Safin and it's easy.
Look at the 2003 Australian Open, for example. Safin was due to face Schuettler and had to pull out. The German makes the final.
Safin is leagues about Kafelnikov. Plus, the latter won 0 Masters Series titles and Safin won 5. Safin won the Davis Cup twice, Kafelnikov once. Safin won his slams in a certain way, and so did Kafelnikov.
It's Safin and it's easy.
alexio
G.O.A.T.
pretty low, so obviously alpha is a clear winner here
Kafelnikov is not underated. He was never a great player. He had no wins over Sampras and Agassi at the big stage because he was not good enough. If Becker or even Ivanisevic and Krajicek played well, he was inferior to them also.
AnOctorokForDinner
Talk Tennis Guru
Kafelnikov was more consistent yet Safin still achieved more at the highest level.
Im(moral) Winner
G.O.A.T.
How can you forget Kafelnikov beating Sampras at the French Open?
alexio
G.O.A.T.
sampras was too exhausted after those 3 marathons against courier, bruguera and martin
Lew II
G.O.A.T.
He beat both at Slams.
Im(moral) Winner
G.O.A.T.
Excuses excuses. Kafelnikov won the doubles at the same time.sampras was too exhausted after those 3 marathons against courier, bruguera and martin
PDJ
G.O.A.T.
I might have this completely wrong, but l think Kerber is a multiple slam champion without an elite title?
Mainad
Bionic Poster
Kafelnikov had wins at Majors over both Sampras and Agassi. And, sure, Becker was better than him. But he was 5-4 against Krajicek, including 2-0 at Majors (French and U.S. Opens).
They dont matter that much if one player has 30 and another has 35.
But 5 masters and 0 masters is a very big difference. Kafelnikov won 2 slams but wasnt able to win a single masters tournament is ridiculous. It even makes his 2 slam victories seem like a fluke.
6august
Hall of Fame
He made 5 MS1000 finals.
Wawrinka has 3 Slams and 1 MS so Kafelnikov has 2 Slams and 0 MS is forgivable.
Once again, double seems to be very underrated here but there was a time players were serious at it.
Sampras lost to everyone at the french open. He was finished after first set after many 3 setters, and never very good on clay. And Kafelnikov played well.
But he is 0-3 against Kuerten at the french. He gave a fight, but in the end he was just a league below, like against Sampras, Agassi, Becker, Ivanisevic on fast courts.
I think it's more a fluke that he didn't win a Masters Series title. He won 2 Majors, made another Major final, won the Olympics, reached #1, reached he WTF finals, reached 5 Masters Series finals, and was 4-3 in 500 level finals.
Agassi was injured in that quarterfinal in 1995.
No shame in going 0-3 against Kuerten the three years Guga took the title, extending him to 5 sets twice and a close four setter the third time. He easily could have won a second French title any of those years.
Mainad
Bionic Poster
Managed it on at least 2 occasions.
None of which counters the other points so no cigar ;-)
Yes, it is no shame to go 0-3 against Kuerten in the 3 years where Kuerten won french open.
But this simply shows that Kafelnikov was not at the level of the top guys. He was on the same level as Rafter for me. Though Rafter probably had a little higher peak and was exciting to watch, while Kafelnikov was one of themost boring players pf the 90s, both gamestyle and personality.
You are wrong. Kafelnikov defeated Sampras in French Open..And before you go on a tirade saying Sampras was useless on Clay,He had beaten Agassi too in French Open.And both on straight sets.
He even bagelled Agassi on Clay in Davis Cup.Go figure.
Phoenix1983
G.O.A.T.
This is a good point - Kafelnikov was well known for playing a huge number of events just for money.
flutzingitaway
Semi-Pro
On a subjective note as someone who followed both eras Kafelnikov just did not garner the fear, aura or respect a multiple slam winner and former #1 typically had. The real big dogs never feared him or a match up with him.
In that sense Safin was much more imposing in a way that is not fully reflected in their final record.
Kafelnikov is underrated by a lot of people too but partly for what I said. And he overplayed, which is part of the reason he did not win a Masters which is bad for a 2 slam winner. It also led to some of his strange head to heads, 8 straight losses to Tomas Johansson for instance. He is 1-7 vs Hewitt who is more accomplished, but is a fellow 2 slam winner. 0-9 vs Sampras off clay but 2-2 on clay. These are just some things that lower people estimation of him. Safin has amazing peaks that Kafelnikov does not hit and that makes him overrated by some people who overlook his massive issues with consistency and focus.
flutzingitaway
Semi-Pro
Yes, he should have approached his whole career differently.
flutzingitaway
Semi-Pro
Implying 5 M1000s are just equal to an OG (not saying you are neccessarily doing this) would be vastly overrating the OG in tennis IMO.
