What do you find to be the hardest jump on the NTRP scale? I find that going from a 4.0 to a 4.5 is the toughest, mainly because at 4.5 your strokes should be instinctual and of second-nature, and you are pretty much just focused on better game strategy. At 4.0, you still are working out the minor kinks in your strokes...
Hardest jump on the NTRP scale?
- Thread starter kicker75
- Start date
i dont think the diff between 4.0 and 4.5 is so much...i think from 4.5 to 5.0 is the biggest jump..in fact, like many things, the better you get at something the more difficult it is to improve, and more subtle the improvements become. most places have quite a few 4.5's to play, and many dont have many true 5.0's at all unless home from college tennis for the summer and such.
TennsDog
Hall of Fame
I think 3.5 to 4.0 is the biggest/toughest jump. Once you get to 4.0, you know the game and you know your strokes, you just need to learn consistant execution. However, below 4.0 you are still learning things and making changes. Most things above 4.0 are more about consistancy, with some emphasis on placement.
S
SageOfDeath
Guest
It would be interesting if a pro responded with their interpertation. We wouldn't really know perhaps getting from 6.0 to 6.5 is the hardest. Who knows??? The Pros.... Rhymes.
Whether it's 4.0 or 4.5, you know where most amateur players got stuck.
I'm talking about people who started tennis as an adult, maybe after college,
myabe after 30, no high school varsity or college tennis experiences, average
joe physique, no more than 3 times a week availability.
95% of them are stuck at this level (3.5 or 4.0). Only a few who committed
to tennis for an extended period seem to make a leap to this higher level
(4.5 or 5.0 or whatever) and started to look like and hit like a pro, if
you know what I mean...
I'm talking about people who started tennis as an adult, maybe after college,
myabe after 30, no high school varsity or college tennis experiences, average
joe physique, no more than 3 times a week availability.
95% of them are stuck at this level (3.5 or 4.0). Only a few who committed
to tennis for an extended period seem to make a leap to this higher level
(4.5 or 5.0 or whatever) and started to look like and hit like a pro, if
you know what I mean...
SageOfDeath said:
I don't know that pros ever really think that much about NTRP ratings. From my standpoint 4.5 to 5.0 is a pretty tough leap. I have been 4.5 for about 10 years, have a very high winning percentage, beaten a number of 4.5 who that season get bumped to 5.0 and I myself never have been bumped. 5.0 to 5.5 also seems like a pretty big leap based on what I know from the 5.0's and 5.5's I've played with over the years.
On a side note I know a number of very, very good 4.5's who have been bumped a number of times back up to 5.0 and then have difficulty winning any matches.
supersmash
Semi-Pro
it's gotta be 6.5-7. you need to contend with people like..federer.
6.5-7.0 would be my guess as you are so close yet so far and the fitness levels, mental skills, racquet skills, etc. need to even go higher and you may already have maxed out your physical abilities which may start dimishing soon with age. The jump to 4.0 is tricky as 1/3 of all players are still stuck at the 3.5 level. Difficult to bridge each level and it takes time and practice to move up. Probably the most frustrating is 2.5-3.0 as you really suck and no one wants to play with you and your technique is so bad you may not know where to start.
supersmash said:
Without seeing the actual numbers I bet you're right. It only makes sense that as you go up the chain on the NTRP or skill ladder the percetage of players at higher levels has to go down for each. The smallest percentage of tennis players worldwide would have to be at the professional level.
I'd say the distance between levels is roughly the same all the way up the scale, but the difficulty in mastering the things needed to make the jump gets harder every step of the way.
The difference between a 4.5 and a 5.0 is a big jump, sure, but the difference is to a large degree in the amount of time and money you can pour into the sport. Same from 5.0 to 5.5.
But when you get to 6.5, you're talking about guys who have spent their whole lives practicing religiously, who have spent every waking hour and every available penny becoming as good as they can, but who still can't get over the 7.0 hump. There are no 6.5's who have half-assed it. That jump, whatever it is, is one only a tiny fraction of a tiny percent are even *capable* of making, now matter what they try.
The difference between a 4.5 and a 5.0 is a big jump, sure, but the difference is to a large degree in the amount of time and money you can pour into the sport. Same from 5.0 to 5.5.
But when you get to 6.5, you're talking about guys who have spent their whole lives practicing religiously, who have spent every waking hour and every available penny becoming as good as they can, but who still can't get over the 7.0 hump. There are no 6.5's who have half-assed it. That jump, whatever it is, is one only a tiny fraction of a tiny percent are even *capable* of making, now matter what they try.
x Southpaw x
Semi-Pro
All jumps are equally tough - each jump requiring a number of what you might call tennis breakthroughs.
I heard this quote once, for what it's worth:
Developing from a 3.5 to a 4.0 requires your overall game to improve generally: better shot execution for depth, better shot selection, the mental game, etc.
Developing from a 4.5 to 5.0 requires your particular weapon(s) to advance considerably. Players at the 4.5 level have a solid game - the key to reaching the 5.0's is the development of a serious and versatile weapon that fits within the strategy of the individual player.
Developing from a 3.5 to a 4.0 requires your overall game to improve generally: better shot execution for depth, better shot selection, the mental game, etc.
Developing from a 4.5 to 5.0 requires your particular weapon(s) to advance considerably. Players at the 4.5 level have a solid game - the key to reaching the 5.0's is the development of a serious and versatile weapon that fits within the strategy of the individual player.
goober
Legend
x Southpaw x said:
Anybody who is semicoordinated can make the jumps from 1.0 to 1.5 to 2.0 to 2.5 pretty quickly and easily. I wouldn't call any of those jumps particularly tough and probably can be done in a month or two by most everybody. OTOH increasingly smaller percentages will make the jump from 4.5-5 or 5 to 5.5.
x Southpaw x said:
Equally tough? I don't buy it.
What's the "tennis breakthrough" you need to move from 1.0 to 1.5? There are a number of obvious little skills separating the two, but are the jumps to the next level of skills really "tough?" You need to know which end of the racquet to hold. You need to develop rudimentary directional control on the level of a 100-yr-old grandma or 4-yr-old child. You need at least a tad of understanding of what the rules are. Is it a bunch of differences? Sure. Maybe you could say the "distance" between 1.0 and 1.5 is as much as 4.0 to 4.5. But the difficulty of making up that distance? Can virtually 100% of the population of the world achieve this mystical 1.5 level if they set their minds to it? You bet. A motivated poodle could reach 1.5.
A slightly smaller % (say, 99.9%) have the physical tools needed to make it to 2.0. The morbidly obese might be out. Maybe also those born with flippers in place of legs.
Fewer can make 2.5, no matter how hard they try. Still most, but fewer.
Fewer still can make each successive level. The "tennis breakthroughs" needed to leap from 4.5 to 5.0, maybe only 40% of the population can make, despite years of training (a rough estimate). And of course, far fewer than that actually DO make it.
Practically none ever make the jump from 6.5 to 7.0. It's like making the jump from senior majoring in physics to Einstein. It gets harder and harder as you work up the scale.
x Southpaw x
Semi-Pro
Hmm... now that you state it clearly... indeed... that's sounds very logical.Grimjack said:
C
Colorado Lefty
Guest
Morpheus said:
Exactly!
However, I think it might be from 3.5 to 4.0, just because there are so many 3.5 players out there. This is a huge percentage of club players at 3.5 level and this group seems to include relative beginners just barely 3.5 to pretty decent and able to hold their own 4.0 players.
Camilio Pascual
Hall of Fame
supersmash said:
Bingo!
This is so obviously true, I can't believe it is being debated.
Somebody doing this is investing tens of thousands of somebody's dollars and their whole life to it as it is now their livelihood.
Jon Hampton
Rookie
Moving past a 3.5 would be the most difficult jump, in my opinion. Seems like everyone who likes tennis and plays it a few days a week can get to 3.0 or 3.5, but making it to 4.0 very few people do. Maybe it's because at the 4.0 level, athleticism accounts for a lot (back bending/knee bending for serving) and off court training (running or gym) really helps you suceed at that level. Of course, there are exceptions to the rule. I've seen fat, out of shape 40 year old's bang it on a 4.5 level with little to no problem. But, it's something you don't see THAT often.
In a nutshell, 3.5 to 4.0 is the most difficult because it requires a larger commitment that many recreational players are not willing to make.
In a nutshell, 3.5 to 4.0 is the most difficult because it requires a larger commitment that many recreational players are not willing to make.
Jon Hampton said:
I think you could more accurately say that 3.5 to 4.0 is the jump the most (largest number -- not percentage) people fail to make.
I wouldn't agree that it's the most difficult, for reasons stated earlier. I'd say it's the level where the difficulty starts to become daunting to significant numbers of people. (The first "weed-out" level, if you will.)
I give credit to the posters arguing in favor of the 6.0 to 7.0 steps as being the utmost difficult ...
The 6.0+ level of tennis is unreal ... measuring advancement there is difficult even for tennis' best players, technicians and coaches ... I mean, these players are your "tennis-gene-pool-lottery-winners" who are at the same time both developing and struggling with their awesome games ... it's hard to even comprehend how difficult the margins must be ...
The 6.0+ level of tennis is unreal ... measuring advancement there is difficult even for tennis' best players, technicians and coaches ... I mean, these players are your "tennis-gene-pool-lottery-winners" who are at the same time both developing and struggling with their awesome games ... it's hard to even comprehend how difficult the margins must be ...
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
The hardest jump is dependent on the individual. It's the jump from where your athleticism caps to the next level. That leap requires us to start doing things entirely differently to move up. More fitness and training. More footwork training. More tactics. Better nutrition.
We can't be more athletic than we were gifted. So you need to improve in other areas and that generally requires a lot more commitment than people with lives outside of tennis can give.
For me, the leap will likely be from 4.0 to 4.5. I can see with practice and consistency I can get to 4.0. But I can't see getting to 4.5 without extensive training that I can't commit to a hobby. Whereas some natural athlete may fly to 4.5 with powerful strokes and serves but then hit his cap and struggle mightily to get to 5.0. A pro likely found the last leap the toughest
We can't be more athletic than we were gifted. So you need to improve in other areas and that generally requires a lot more commitment than people with lives outside of tennis can give.
For me, the leap will likely be from 4.0 to 4.5. I can see with practice and consistency I can get to 4.0. But I can't see getting to 4.5 without extensive training that I can't commit to a hobby. Whereas some natural athlete may fly to 4.5 with powerful strokes and serves but then hit his cap and struggle mightily to get to 5.0. A pro likely found the last leap the toughest
heninfan99
Talk Tennis Guru
I think going beyond 6.0.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Duh. I'd have to say that the most difficult jump is from 1.0 up to 7.0 on the NTRP scale. After that, the jump from 3.5 to 4.0 as the East Bay kid above has suggested.
esgee48
G.O.A.T.
Easy there, LeeD. SA was being 'sarcastic.' And the 50's-60's are fast becoming the new 'middle aged.'
My 2 cents. Making the move from 4.5 to 5.0. 5.5 have too many ex-D1 players in that category. And they move down to 5.0 as soon as they turn 40 or lose to fresh 5.5 fresh out of school. I know of only 2 players who got bumped from 4.5->5.0->5.5, but almost everyone else I know there are ex-D1. Percentage wise (est.), probably 95% of all players are 3.5 or less; 97%, 4.0 or less; 98%, 4.5 or less; 99% 5.0 or less. 5.5-7.0 occupy the last 1%, which tell you how hard it is to get there and make money.
My 2 cents. Making the move from 4.5 to 5.0. 5.5 have too many ex-D1 players in that category. And they move down to 5.0 as soon as they turn 40 or lose to fresh 5.5 fresh out of school. I know of only 2 players who got bumped from 4.5->5.0->5.5, but almost everyone else I know there are ex-D1. Percentage wise (est.), probably 95% of all players are 3.5 or less; 97%, 4.0 or less; 98%, 4.5 or less; 99% 5.0 or less. 5.5-7.0 occupy the last 1%, which tell you how hard it is to get there and make money.
Simon_the_furry
Hall of Fame
My problem with the NTRP is that a person can be all over the place on the charts (like myself), but still have one weakness and they are only as good as their weakest point, basically.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Nothing to resent. No malice intended. The "Duh" was not directed at you. And the use of "kid" was not meant to offend. At 63, I certainly would not resent being called "the South Bay kid".
Easy there, LeeD. SA was being 'sarcastic.' And the 50's-60's are fast becoming the new 'middle aged.'
My 2 cents. Making the move from 4.5 to 5.0. 5.5 have too many ex-D1 players in that category. And they move down to 5.0 as soon as they turn 40 or lose to fresh 5.5 fresh out of school. I know of only 2 players who got bumped from 4.5->5.0->5.5, but almost everyone else I know there are ex-D1. Percentage wise (est.), probably 95% of all players are 3.5 or less; 97%, 4.0 or less; 98%, 4.5 or less; 99% 5.0 or less. 5.5-7.0 occupy the last 1%, which tell you how hard it is to get there and make money.
Interesting.
The two former 4.5's who made USTA 5.0 last year, and you know them, didn't play college tennis. Noah and Seth. Not saying either is going farther.
Lance L
Semi-Pro
In a way this is two different questions:
1. It is pretty straightforward to say that the farther up the ladder you go, each half point up gets harder. At a certain point almost all of us hit a point where there is nothing we can do to improve. Going from 5-5.5 is going to be much tougher than going from 2.5-3.0.
2. The more interesting question might be "Which level jump is the hardest for the regular serious rec player?" We are only talking about folks who are into it enough to even care about this.
I would say either 3.5-4.0 or 4.0-4.5. I see so, so many enthusiastic, serious rec players that can't get past the 3.5-4.0 level. They are good players, but they can't put all of them together: fitness, technique, strategy, resilience.
1. It is pretty straightforward to say that the farther up the ladder you go, each half point up gets harder. At a certain point almost all of us hit a point where there is nothing we can do to improve. Going from 5-5.5 is going to be much tougher than going from 2.5-3.0.
2. The more interesting question might be "Which level jump is the hardest for the regular serious rec player?" We are only talking about folks who are into it enough to even care about this.
I would say either 3.5-4.0 or 4.0-4.5. I see so, so many enthusiastic, serious rec players that can't get past the 3.5-4.0 level. They are good players, but they can't put all of them together: fitness, technique, strategy, resilience.
Topspin Shot
Legend
It's the one you can't make.
Raul_SJ
G.O.A.T.
The hardest jump is the one you made - reviving a thread after 11 years
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
Wondering when someone would recognize the Necro bump. I found it on a search and thought it was interesting enough to revive.
Interesting question..
Okay first of all strictly speaking - yes the answer is 6.5 to 7.0. But the NTRP doesn't really 'work' at those levels. the highest league is only 5.0 so realistically the NTRP is about 3.0 - 5.0. Now breaking it down more - most people can get up to 3.0 just playing casual tennis. Most - not all - 3.0 league is better then some people think. It's the first level for someone who really is into tennis. But its not THAT difficult. 3.0 - 3.5 - tough - but mostly its about being more consistent with what you are already doing..
I do think 3.5 to 4.0 is a very tough one. But the reason is not that straight forward.. Its a true recreational player achieving his likely highest level. Despite it generally being considered garbage on this board - a 4.0 is beyond what most recreational players will achieve and it is something that CAN be done.. But once these guys have commitments - kids etc. It becomes a real challenge..
In THEORY the other levels would be higher to achieve like 4.0 to 4.5 and 4.5 to 5.0 - but when you consider that most guys are 'falling back' or 'achieving again' - that puts them in a different category. For example was talking with some 4.5s - very strong player. Every single one of them had at one point played as juniors. Now they were picking up tennis again - as they were in their thirties now. (this seems like a common thing to do) - and getting into it.. But that's not the same thing as a your rec 3.5 guy who has never played good tennis becoming good..
So yeah I have to agree with the guys that say 3.5-4.0 is the toughest. It's the toughest level that most people are going to face. Its' going from being about the same as most guys to better then most serious recreational players - regardless of age or fitness.
Most guys aren't going to go rise beyond 4.0..unless they take up tennis as a job..like a young teaching pro etc. As an adult - its basically just too late..
Okay first of all strictly speaking - yes the answer is 6.5 to 7.0. But the NTRP doesn't really 'work' at those levels. the highest league is only 5.0 so realistically the NTRP is about 3.0 - 5.0. Now breaking it down more - most people can get up to 3.0 just playing casual tennis. Most - not all - 3.0 league is better then some people think. It's the first level for someone who really is into tennis. But its not THAT difficult. 3.0 - 3.5 - tough - but mostly its about being more consistent with what you are already doing..
I do think 3.5 to 4.0 is a very tough one. But the reason is not that straight forward.. Its a true recreational player achieving his likely highest level. Despite it generally being considered garbage on this board - a 4.0 is beyond what most recreational players will achieve and it is something that CAN be done.. But once these guys have commitments - kids etc. It becomes a real challenge..
In THEORY the other levels would be higher to achieve like 4.0 to 4.5 and 4.5 to 5.0 - but when you consider that most guys are 'falling back' or 'achieving again' - that puts them in a different category. For example was talking with some 4.5s - very strong player. Every single one of them had at one point played as juniors. Now they were picking up tennis again - as they were in their thirties now. (this seems like a common thing to do) - and getting into it.. But that's not the same thing as a your rec 3.5 guy who has never played good tennis becoming good..
So yeah I have to agree with the guys that say 3.5-4.0 is the toughest. It's the toughest level that most people are going to face. Its' going from being about the same as most guys to better then most serious recreational players - regardless of age or fitness.
Most guys aren't going to go rise beyond 4.0..unless they take up tennis as a job..like a young teaching pro etc. As an adult - its basically just too late..
purple-n-gold
Hall of Fame
Describe a "minor kink' please. I have seen some guys here in my section that have play D1 30yrs ago, now 4.0 somehow.
4.5-5.0 would be my judge-mental range. So many dudes 'think' they play solid 4.5 tennis.. USTA NTRP... go figure
In my section there are not many 5.0 or "Open" rated players from what used to be in years gone by. Card carrying 5.O is usually a teaching pro at a good establishment around here.
Most top 4.5 guys(Southern) and even alot of 4.0s have played some college tennis.
4.5-5.0 would be my judge-mental range. So many dudes 'think' they play solid 4.5 tennis.. USTA NTRP... go figure
In my section there are not many 5.0 or "Open" rated players from what used to be in years gone by. Card carrying 5.O is usually a teaching pro at a good establishment around here.
Most top 4.5 guys(Southern) and even alot of 4.0s have played some college tennis.
heninfan99
Talk Tennis Guru
you can't use the large number of part-time 4.0 hobbyist schmoes as your guide on this.
Think of how great 6.0s are. Have you ever hit with one?
I've hit with a few. One played Donald Young in juniors but more importantly he spent a lot of his life playing tennis and didn't get past 6.0.
Another one that played on his country's national team said he couldn't go further without proper sponsorships to enter and travel to tourneys.
Those kind of barriers are huge.
Think of how great 6.0s are. Have you ever hit with one?
I've hit with a few. One played Donald Young in juniors but more importantly he spent a lot of his life playing tennis and didn't get past 6.0.
Another one that played on his country's national team said he couldn't go further without proper sponsorships to enter and travel to tourneys.
Those kind of barriers are huge.
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dominikk1985
Legend
I think it is the higher levels. A 4.5 is closer to a 5.0 in terms of stroke technique than a 3.5 is to a 4.0 but the farther you get the harder it is to improve. For example if you lift it is pretty easy to bring your bench press from 100 to 200 with some training but 200 to 300 is much tougher. The last inches are always the hardest.
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
I think if you generalize:
Late life tennis learner: 3.5 to 4.0
Ex junior player: 4.5 to 5.0
Nationally ranked collegiate player : 5.5 to 6.0
Pro: beating Djokovic
Late life tennis learner: 3.5 to 4.0
Ex junior player: 4.5 to 5.0
Nationally ranked collegiate player : 5.5 to 6.0
Pro: beating Djokovic
